Jedi Exile vs Ulic Qel Droma

Knowing your ignorance Ulic has still destroyed the spirit of an Ancient Sith possessing a guy in an armor entchanted by Sith Alchemy (Warb Null). You know: One of the beings that would make Kreia and her friends look like children in comparison. Ulic defeated one of them. And that makes Ulic more powerful than Kreia and the Exile.

Kreia's statement is totally bogus. We KNOW it's crap.This is what DS was talking about with "fallible 3rd party characters." We've seen the almighty Ancients like Sadow and Kreesh and they haven't even come close to demonstrating the power of Nihilus, Kun or Sidious. Hell, the MIGHTIEST of them all - Ragnos - needed a Sceptor to perform a technique that was entirely natural to Nihilus - one of the "children" - and said sceptor couldn't even do it on the same scale.

Sadow throws bricks at people...but he makes Darth Revan and Bane look like children...give me a break.

I want to interject here, Nai. If [notice the "if"] you are basing your assumptions of the Ancient Sith solely off of Kreia's statement, then you have nothing. Statements made by third party characters, even informed ones, can be used as supporting evidence, but not as ironclad proof. Otherwise, Voren Na'al is correct when he says that RotS Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Kreia's statement is totally bogus. We KNOW it's crap.This is what DS was talking about with "fallible 3rd party characters." We've seen the almighty Ancients like Sadow and Kreesh and they haven't even come close to demonstrating the power of Nihilus, Kun or Sidious. Hell, the MIGHTIEST of them all - Ragnos - needed a Sceptor to perform a technique that was entirely natural to Nihilus - one of the "children" - and said sceptor couldn't even do it on the same scale.

Sadow throws bricks at people...but he makes Darth Revan and Bane look like children...give me a break. [/B]

And Nai, you mentioned Kun was above Revan. Care to explain that, because as I see it, Revan is at the very least, equal to Kun.

Do you even know what a fallible 3rd party character is?

Any character in fiction who isn't an omniscient God?

Someone who isn't force sensitive and knows nothing about the force,

Talking about something that doesn't relate to The Force but to his master's power.

He's not discussing the strengths and weaknesses off the light and dark side...or philosophy. He's stating what Nihilus did. Why should the fact he's not Force sensitive and knows nothing of The Force matter?

A historian like Kreia who has incredible knowledge of the force and ancient sith ISNT fallible in this case.

Yes she is. Because I know more than her.

I've seen the Ancient Sith. I've read the Ancient Sith.

I > Kreia.

And what I've seen totally contradicts what she says. So, feats vs. fallible statements.

I've said all along I'll take a statement made by a character if it is logical and if there's nothing to disprove it. There's TONS to disprove what Kreia said.

Not to mention your logic of "the ancient sith suck" is based on just a lack of evidence, when they invented the majority, if not all, the sith techniques everybody uses

It's also based on the fact they've done nothing.

'cept throw bricks with The Force.

Or use augmenting objects and tech.

Just because they invented techniques does not mean they even had the power to use them on the level of those who came after.

Sidious was the only one to invent his own stuff, so the ancient sith sucking isn't even close.

Most Powerful Ancient Sith - Marka Ragnos - used a sceptor to do something that was natural to Nihilus.

But, yeah, i guess they're uber.

Despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Everyone who came after the Ancients have surpassed them.

And Kun became exponentially more powerful after learning from Sadow. Stop using absence of proof as your argument..

I've got plenty of proof.

I got Naga Sadow using tech, meditation spheres and amulets to augment his power and perform feats.

I've got the most powerful Sith using an object to perform a technique later Sith used on a wider scale and under their own power.

Characters are always fallible, even if they display a vast understanding of the topic being debated, simply because they do not display any omniscience or perfection. Traya's assertion in regards to the Ancient Sith is evidence, but it is supporting evidence. If you take the quote and let it stand alone, then it isn't testimony to the Ancient Sith's power. It isn't ironclad or foolproof. To simply say that they are uber-powerful simply because she says so would mean that Nai would have to consent that Voren Na'al (who displayed an uncharacteristic amount of knowledge) and his team were correct in regards to RotS Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Any character in fiction who isn't an omniscient God?

Talking about something that doesn't relate to The Force but to his master's power.

He's not discussing the strengths and weaknesses off the light and dark side...or philosophy. He's stating what Nihilus did. Why should the fact he's not Force sensitive and knows nothing of The Force matter?

Yes she is. Because I know more than her.

And what I've seen totally contradicts what she says. So, feats vs. fallible statements.

I've said all along I'll take a statement made by a character if it is logical and if there's nothing to disprove it. There's TONS to disprove what Kreia said.

It's also based on the fact they've done nothing.

'cept throw bricks with The Force.

Or use augmenting objects and tech.

Just because they invented techniques does not mean they even had the power to use them on the level of those who came after.

Most Powerful Ancient Sith - Marka Ragnos - used a sceptor to do something that was natural to Nihilus.

Despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Everyone who came after the Ancients have surpassed them.

I've got plenty of proof.

I got Naga Sadow using tech, meditation spheres and amulets to augment his power and perform feats.

I've got the most powerful Sith using an object to perform a technique later Sith used on a wider scale and under their own power. [/B]

uh no?

I disagree.

A fallible 3rd party results from lack of knowledge or personal bias or any sort of factor.

An omniscient god would be beyond questioning - beyond fallibility in whatever they say because they know all. You can't question it.

Everyone else who doesn't know all is thus a fallible 3rd party.

And as Escape said, you're using quotes as your argument, not to mention that again, Tobin knows nothing about the force, nor how Nihilus holds the ship together(allegedly)

He still said it.

And there's nothing to contradict it.

I take him at his word until proof comes to the contrary.

Because his statement is disproved when you destroy Nihilus and the ship is still intact.

I'm talking about his statement of Nihilus pulling his fleet from the gravity well in Malachor.

But going with what you said, it was said by the Mandalore that the ship shouldn't even be capable of going through space. Yet it does. We are given an explanation for this.

So are you saying that quote is wrong and that ship with open hull on the bridge - where living people are - and many other places, is actually spaceworthy without Nihilus?

Denial? You can't even formulate ONE argument.

I can't?

I would assume what I'm saying is an argument.

Based on quotes and facts.

And in regards to Traya, actual feats of what we've seen.

At least the low level debaters on this forum can throw in any type of argument, no matter how bad it is. You're basically using a disproven quote as your argument.

Except it's not disproven.

You seriously need to come to understand you are NOT and neve rwill be an authority on anything.

What Tobin says is "he holds it together." What YOU, with NO supporting evidence, says is that he holds it together constantly and upon his death it should fall apart.

THIS IS NOT STATED ANYWHERE.

Give it up already. You can't disprove a statement by using a fect that has no relation to said statement.

Just because you think so doesn't make it so. Not to mention your constant inability to back up anything you say.

I back up everythign I say, DS.

You fail, each and every time, to back up what you say.

Still waiting on the quote that says the ship will collapse should Nihilus die. or anything of the kind.

You keep saying it. But you have yet to prove it with anything.

So, who's failing to back up their argument?

Nobody cares what you'll take as logic because you've proven to be void of both logic and common sense.

Provide examples.

I use quotes and statements.

I do not use my own unsupported opnion in anything.

Unlike yourself.

There doesn't have to be a quote to disprove another quote, but that's above you. Your stupidity is like me saying "Oh I think I'm better than Kobe at Basketball so that means I am".

This has nothing to do with anything.

I said there's tons to disprove what Kreia said and that's fact.

Or the fact that they created most, if not all of the force techniques used by everyone, and their ability to augment their force abilities with amulets.

Good for them.

But I really don't care.

Sadow throws bricks with The Force.

Nihilus eats planets.

Kun drains races.

Kun and Nihilus > Sadow.

Probably not, but that doesn't mean that they didn't.

Until I see one shred of evidence suggesting otherwise, I don't acknowledge the possibility because it's baseless.

If you recall correctly(you don't)

Talk about ASSumptions.

Nihilus and Kreia had similar force drains that they learned on Malachor V. Nihilus' force drain was amplified by him being a wound in the force, so that doesn't exactly seem natural.

I fail to see the relevance of this.

Uh no, and no. Good try though

Uh, yes, and yes.

Kun drained a race.

Nihilus fed off planets.

Sidious destroyed fleets.

Provide one shed of evidence any Ancient ever came close to any of this.

Oh really? We've yet to see ANY. Besides the fact that you've been here virtually the ENTIRE day and have yet to offer one argument.

It's not my fault if you lack reading comprehension.

Sadow tossed a brick with The Force.

He needed meditation spheres, amulets and ships to perform any feat of power.

The mightiest Sith of the Ancient Sith used a scepter to perform a skill Nihilus could do on his own.

The Ancient Sith are NOTHING compared to people like Kun, Nihilus and Sidious until they do something beside throw bricks.

Oh noes, he had the abilities to augment and amplify an otherwise normal technique, he must suck!! I guess he sucks so bad that Exar Kun became uber powerful after learning his secrets.

Except Exar could have surpassed him.

In fact, by what we see, he did.

He's done more with what he learned than what Sadow could do.

Oh noes, he used a scepter!!! The same scepter that gave force abilities to non force sensitives.

Give me a gun!

The same object that lets me shoot bullets when I couldn't shoot them naturally!!

And again, an artifact. Not their actual power.

He created the scepter so he knew the technique

Prove he knew Force Drain.

Give me a quote.

And it's more than likely Nihilus was able to use this technique without the use of an object, BECAUSE he was a wound in the force.

Guesswork. Not useable in debates. Don't try to demean his power because you have no argument.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
I disagree.

A fallible 3rd party results from lack of knowledge or personal bias or any sort of factor.

Everyone else who doesn't know all is thus a fallible 3rd party.

He still said it.

And there's nothing to contradict it.

I take him at his word until proof comes to the contrary.

But going with what you said, it was said by the Mandalore that the ship shouldn't even be capable of going through space. Yet it does. We are given an explanation for this.

So are you saying that quote is wrong and that ship with open hull on the bridge - where living people are - and many other places, is actually spaceworthy without Nihilus?

I would assume what I'm saying is an argument.

Based on quotes and facts.

Except it's not disproven.

You seriously need to come to understand you are NOT and neve rwill be an authority on anything.

What Tobin says is "he holds it together." What YOU, with NO supporting evidence, says is that he holds it together constantly and upon his death it should fall apart.

THIS IS NOT STATED ANYWHERE.

Give it up already. You can't disprove a statement by using a fect that has no relation to said statement.

I back up everythign I say, DS.

You fail, each and every time, to back up what you say.

Still waiting on the quote that says the ship will collapse should Nihilus die. or anything of the kind.

You keep saying it. But you have yet to prove it with anything.

So, who's failing to back up their argument?

Provide examples.

I use quotes and statements.

I do not use my own unsupported opnion in anything.

Unlike yourself.

I said there's tons to disprove what Kreia said and that's fact.

Sadow throws bricks with The Force.

Nihilus eats planets.

Kun drains races.

Kun and Nihilus > Sadow.[/quote]
Sadow also creates monsters, destroys star systems, etc. Kun learned everything from Sadow's teachings, So your opinion means shit. Let the real debaters argue Nihilus Kun and Sadow.

Until I see one shred of evidence suggesting otherwise, I don't acknowledge the possibility because it's baseless.

Kun drained a race.

Nihilus fed off planets.

Provide one shed of evidence any Ancient ever came close to any of this.

It's not my fault if you lack reading comprehension.

Sadow tossed a brick with The Force.

He needed meditation spheres, amulets and ships to perform any feat of power.

The mightiest Sith of the Ancient Sith used a scepter to perform a skill Nihilus could do on his own.

The Ancient Sith are NOTHING compared to people like Kun, Nihilus and Sidious until they do something beside throw bricks.

He's done more with what he learned than what Sadow could do.

And again, an artifact. Not their actual power.

Prove he knew Force Drain.

Give me a quote.
Kreia says the technique NIhilus learned was derived from the ancient sith. So you lose, yet again.

Guesswork. Not useable in debates. Don't try to demean his power because you have no argument. [/B]

Btw, for you to tell me I have no argument, you have to know what an argument is. Seeing as how you're proving(and I say this a lot but everyone I debate with gets dumber and dumber)to be the dumbest person on these forums, nothing you say means anything. But thanks for the chuckle.

And I know you're planning on being here the ENTIRE day (judging by your pattern), but I suggest you get some sunlight and gain some kind of common sense.

And a non force user would lack the knowledge as to how a force user is supposedly keeping a ship up with the force. Thanks for proving my point.

I have a statement with nothing to contradict or disprove it (in the feat of lifting the Ravager and the fleet from Malachor). So, I'm sticking with it until something comes along to disprove it.

And a non force user would lack the knowledge as to how a force user is supposedly keeping a ship up with the force. Thanks for proving my point.

[quote]Nope, Kreia is a historian of the ancient sith so when she speaks about them, it's correct.

She's falible because she's a 3rd party who doesn't know everything. She wasn't there when the Ancient Sith were around. She is also inclined to lie.

Kreia is a fallible 3rd party as is every character.

obody cares what he said and nobody cares if there's a quote to contradict it. He's a fallible 3rd party character in this instance, and his quote is contradictory to what actually happened, so you're wrong again.

Your assumtpion about the quote makes the Ravager not falling apar ta contradiction. Not the quote itself. The quote itself is ambiguous and your interpretation has zero basis in being the only valid one.

Good for you, nobody cares, you don't have an argument.

More of one than you have, DS.

Tell me again where it says the ship will fall apart when Nihilus dies.

Still waiting.

And yet the ship is fully capable of being in space after Nihilus dies. This theory has been debunked by Nai.

Okay theh.

If the ship was spaceworthy without Nihilus, where did it go after he died? Was it not blown up after he died?

And once more, we don't know how he held it together.

Just because a quote is said in a game, doesn't make it canon. That's like saying gameplay mechanics are canon because they're in the game, it's stupid. And again, Nihilus died and the ship was intact, so you lose.

Except the quote never said "should he die, the ship will fall apart." Nor did anything hint at that.

And it's nos tjust the quote. We SEE the ship is totally un-spaceworthy. The observation is just confirming what we ourselves can actually see.

No, what you're doing is throwing in a quote and claiming it's canon and your argument.

Yes. Like I said, facts.

Unlike what you are doing. I do not interpret quotes and then say this is fact.

You need to understand that you've been on this forum the ENTIRE day and it's an unhealthy habit to sit on the computer all day long.

I just took a shower.

I also ate lunch earlier.

And read a book.

You lose.

As to me being an authority, I never claimed I was one, but I have offered an argument that destroyed whatever it is you threw out.

Your argument is this.

"he said Nihilus holds the ship together. Yet the ship is intact after Nihilus dies. This proves Nihilus is not holding the ship together."

Yet, this is merely YOUR interpretation of what Tobin said. What he actually said is "he holds this ship together." HOW? We don't know. Regular uses of the Force? Maybe. Anual uses of the Force Maybe. There's NO way to prove any of it. We are told he holds the ship together and that is all.

If NIHILUS holds it together, and NIHILUS is dead, the SHIP should be destroyed dumbass.

And if NIHILUS did not need to constantly hold the ship together, it WOULD NOT fall apart when he died. And NOWHERE does it say he needs to constantly hold it together.

IT doesn't have to be stated for it to be true. It can be shown or logically deduced. Obviously this concept is foreign to you.

It's not logic.

It's not shown.

It's your opinion. Nothing factual whatsoever to back it up.

"He holds it together." Through constant use of The Force? Through one-a-year uses of The Force? We don't know.

I've already destroyed whatever it is you threw in.

I don't acknowledge your opinion and interpretation as it has no basis in facts.

You haven't offered an argument to back anything up. D-E-N-I-A-L

"He holds it together."

What YOU say:
"he holds it together constantly."

What I say:
"he holds it together."

I don't twist quotes or add my own opinion into them to try and support my argument.

Still waiting on the quote that states Nihilus is uber powerful. Oh wait, I'm using your shitty logic.

"One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."
―Kreia

Actually there's nothing that disproves her quote. Furthermore, the fact that she's an expert on ancient sith, makes her quote all the more factual, as opposed to Tobin's quote.

We're not even on Tobin.

We're talking about what WE Know as opposed to what Kreia knows.

Unlike her, we've actually seen the Ancient Sith.

We've also seen her era.

And the next era.

And so-on.

We know more than her.

And what we know of the Ancient Sith and her era shows that her statement is totally invalid. No Ancient ever displayed, on their own, the power of someone like Nihilus.

Sadow also creates monsters

Uh huh. And Nihilus lifts fleets with his TK.

destroys star systems

If you're resorting to bringing that up, you are definitely out of ammo.

Kun learned everything from Sadow's teachings,

And by all accounts surpassed him.

So your opinion means shit. Let the real debaters argue Nihilus Kun and Sadow.

*calls over Palpatine* Your arrogance blinds you, Darth Sexy.

I mean...damn dude, how conceited are you? When you have to constantly pump up yourself as part of your debating strategy, it shows your own inherent weaknesses.

Again, nobody cares what you think, as you've shown no ability to form arguments or use common sense.

And I'm sure your own revolutionary tactic of "my interpretation is fact" is wholly preferred to me using quotes and not making assumptions such as the Ravager falling apart when Nihilus dies.

Using Sadow's(ancient sith) secrets

Something Sadow never did.

Using ancient sith secrets

That none of them were ever shown capable of using.

And no, I do not say they can't. But we haven't seen them and if we start thinking they can, then that's nothing more than pure speculation with no foundation in facts.

Honestly DS...You insult me constantly but EVERYONE, much better debaters than myself such as Advent and Escape, have called you on this before.

I know I'm not alone in calling bullshit on this line of thinking.

Don't need to, read POD. They were capable of destroying cities and star systems, and the fact that they created Nihilus' force drain, the amulet blasts, the thought bomb, and the force storm, is evidence enough. Nobody cares what you believe because you can't provide logical arguments.

You really are arrogant, DS.

Since when are you everyone? Nobody cares what I think? *looks around* YOU are the only person arguing with me.

And no one cares, not me, not Advent, not Escape, that the Ancients created those things. They never were shown using them and we DON'T KNOW IF THEY EVEN COULD.

Who also created monsters, who taught Nadd enough for Nadd to conquer Onderon, and whose teachings made Kun uber powerful.

Didn't Nadd kill him?

I take it by this stupidity that you don't know the purpose of a meditation sphere. And nothing indicates he needed the amulet, it was a multipurpose tool for channeling the force and passing down history. As for the ship, he gets credit for creating something nobody else could.

So, if he didn't need these things, then why does he wear or use them? Tell me something he did WITHOUT them.

You do realize that because the technique was fused within the scepter, Ragnos had to have known the technique right?

Yes because Sadow knew the Blow Up Stars Technique and put it in his ship.

Or are you that stupid?

*yawn* And Escape says I have anger issues with debating.

Not to mention the scepter, like the other tools of the ancient sith, was also a sword, therefore making it yet another multipurpose tool, which was the speciality of the ancient sith.

This has like...-1000 relevance as to the power of the Ancient Sith.

continued

What Nihilus did was derived from the ancient sith and was magnified by him being a wound. He clearly didn't have this technique before Malachor V.

I never said he did. I said we don't know his origins and we don't have any indication the technique was strenghtened by him being a wound in The Force. He could have became a wound after he knew the technique...we don't know if he's always been a Wound.

Once again, your opinion is irrelevant.

Except that the accomplishments and powers of all those listed are greater than anything EVER shown by any Ancient Sith.

Yet he learned it from Sadow and couldn't do without it.

And he surpassed him.

Sadow never did anything on the level of Exar.

Hey dumbass, how do you think they got the force abilities into the artifact?

Do you have the New Essential Guide to Making Star Wars Artifacts?

Direct me to the source where it says how they made Ragnos' scepter.

IF you're going to hate on the ancient sith, don't sound like a complete dumbass doing it.

*Yawn*

Give me a quote.
Kreia says the technique NIhilus learned was derived from the ancient sith. So you lose, yet again.

Where in that quote from Kreia does it say "the technique was derived from the Ancient Sith and it was known to all Ancient Sith."

There are more Ancient Sith than just Ragnos, ya know. Or is it your unfounded opinion that Ragnos knew it just because Kreia said his race knew it?

Seeing as how you're proving(and I say this a lot but everyone I debate with gets dumber and dumber)to be the dumbest person on these forums, nothing you say means anything. But thanks for the chuckle.

I never claimed to be a good debater.

And I also don't think you are either.

I have looked over countless old threads and seen you get proven wrong countless times. Just earlier I was looking at you arguing with Advent and clearly losing. ON THIS VERY MATTER.

I know when I am losing. i know when I'm wrong and I know when to give up and admit it. But I've seen people who are far better debaters than me AGREE with me, not you, on the matter of the Ancent Sith.

Jesus, just when I thought the "Ancient-Sith-own-all" mentality died when the Antedivulians left... all right, let's set the record straight. I can certainly understand how someone like Ragnos - the strongest of the Ancient Sith - would be considered "one of the most powerful" ever. But, Nik is right. Sadow's greatest example of power when not in the presence of his uber-technology, is throwing a brick. Arguing based on evidence? He sucks without it. One cannot successfully argue that these Ancient Sith are uber without the devices that permitted them to perform the feats in question. Asserting that they are requires proof.

Sadow isn't on par with the likes of Kun, Sidious, and so forth.

Originally posted by Gideon
Jesus, just when I thought the "Ancient-Sith-own-all" mentality died when the Antedivulians left... all right, let's set the record straight. I can certainly understand how someone like Ragnos - the strongest of the Ancient Sith - would be considered "one of the most powerful" ever. But, Nik is right. Sadow's greatest example of power when not in the presence of his uber-technology, is throwing a brick. Arguing based on evidence? He sucks without it. One cannot successfully argue that these Ancient Sith are uber without the devices that permitted them to perform the feats in question. Asserting that they are requires proof.

Sadow isn't on par with the likes of Kun, Sidious, and so forth.

First off, where was Sidious in any of this? Secondly, we had the ancient sith pwn all mentality, followed by the ancient sith suck mentality which is going on now. Sadow may NOT be on par with Kun(which isn't what I was arguing), but his knowledge is what made Kun uber powerful. Obviously Kun did more with it but it was Sadow's knowledge to begin with so saying that Kun is uber and Sadow sucks based on the same knowledge, is ridiculous.

And arguing that Sadow is on par with any truly powerful Sith Lord is ridiculous as well, DS, in the absence of his technology. He went from blowing up stars to... oh, yes... hurling a brick. Now, perhaps if he could have tossed a second one, I'd consider being impressed.

Sadow doesn't suck - his knowledge is incredible - but Kun would assrape him.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
I have a statement with nothing to contradict or disprove it (in the feat of lifting the Ravager and the fleet from Malachor). So, I'm sticking with it until something comes along to disprove it.

She's falible because she's a 3rd party who doesn't know everything. She wasn't there when the Ancient Sith were around. She is also inclined to lie.

Kreia is a fallible 3rd party as is every character.

Your assumtpion about the quote makes the Ravager not falling apar ta contradiction. Not the quote itself. The quote itself is ambiguous and your interpretation has zero basis in being the only valid one.

More of one than you have, DS.

Tell me again where it says the ship will fall apart when Nihilus dies.

Still waiting.

If the ship was spaceworthy without Nihilus, where did it go after he died? Was it not blown up after he died?

And once more, we don't know how he held it together.

Except the quote never said "should he die, the ship will fall apart." Nor did anything hint at that.

Unlike what you are doing. I do not interpret quotes and then say this is fact.

I just took a shower.

I also ate lunch earlier.

And read a book.

You lose.

"he said Nihilus holds the ship together. Yet the ship is intact after Nihilus dies. This proves Nihilus is not holding the ship together."

Yet, this is merely YOUR interpretation of what Tobin said. What he actually said is "he holds this ship together." HOW? We don't know. Regular uses of the Force? Maybe. Anual uses of the Force Maybe. There's NO way to prove any of it. We are told he holds the ship together and that is all.

It's not logic.

It's not shown.

It's your opinion. Nothing factual whatsoever to back it up.

"He holds it together." Through constant use of The Force? Through one-a-year uses of The Force? We don't know.

"He holds it together."

What YOU say:
"he holds it together constantly."

What I say:
"he holds it together."

I don't twist quotes or add my own opinion into them to try and support my argument.

Unlike her, we've actually seen the Ancient Sith.

We've also seen her era.

And the next era.

And so-on.

We know more than her.

And what we know of the Ancient Sith and her era shows that her statement is totally invalid. No Ancient ever displayed, on their own, the power of someone like Nihilus.

Uh huh. And Nihilus lifts fleets with his TK.

If you're resorting to bringing that up, you are definitely out of ammo.

I mean...damn dude, how conceited are you? When you have to constantly pump up yourself as part of your debating strategy, it shows your own inherent weaknesses.

That none of them were ever shown capable of using.

Honestly DS...You insult me constantly but EVERYONE, much better debaters than myself such as Advent and Escape, have called you on this before.

Since when are you everyone? Nobody cares what I think? *looks around* YOU are the only person arguing with me.

So, if he didn't need these things, then why does he wear or use them? Tell me something he did WITHOUT them.

Yes because Sadow knew the Blow Up Stars Technique and put it in his ship.

*yawn* And Escape says I have anger issues with debating.

Originally posted by Gideon
And arguing that Sadow is on par with any truly powerful Sith Lord is ridiculous as well, DS, in the absence of his technology. He went from blowing up stars to... oh, yes... hurling a brick. Now, perhaps if he could have tossed a second one, I'd consider being impressed.

Sadow doesn't suck - his knowledge is incredible - but Kun would assrape him.

I don't recall arguing Sadow was on par with a Kun or Bane or Revan. Sadow was a sith magician, not a warrior or what not. His knowledge base surpassed that of a non ancient sith(except for Sidious), but either he wasn't skilled enough to use it to his fullest advantage, or he didn't care to.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't recall arguing Sadow was on par with a Kun or Bane or Revan. Sadow was a sith magician, not a warrior or what not. His knowledge base surpassed that of a non ancient sith(except for Sidious), but either he wasn't skilled enough to use it to his fullest advantage, or he didn't care to.

Then there is no argument. But if you're implying that Sadow is a god, or is "uberpowerful" - compared to the big boys - you're very, very wrong.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Direct me to the source where it says how they made Ragnos' scepter.

Where in that quote from Kreia does it say "the technique was derived from the Ancient Sith and it was known to all Ancient Sith."

And I also don't think you are either.

I have looked over countless old threads and seen you get proven wrong countless times. Just earlier I was looking at you arguing with Advent and clearly losing. ON THIS VERY MATTER.

I know when I am losing. i know when I'm wrong and I know when to give up and admit it. But I've seen people who are far better debaters than me AGREE with me, not you, on the matter of the Ancent Sith. [/B]

Originally posted by Gideon
Then there is no argument. But if you're implying that Sadow is a god, or is "uberpowerful" - compared to the big boys - you're very, very wrong.

No, I wasn't lol. I was implying that Sadow isn't a pushover, as some people make him seem, and that Kun's knowledge and uber abilities are 99% accredited to Sadow.

we'll continue this later Escape, the NBA playoffs are on.

I'm not bothering to quote all that...We just keep repeating ourselves over and over again.

I'll ask you one more time.

"he keeps it together."

Where does it say he keeps it together constantly?

I just want to know.

You say it should fall apart when he dies, right? But the quote is rather vague. We don't know HOW he keeps it together. Routine uses of The Force?

And, you seem to be constantly twisting two points into one. Like here

[quote]I have a statement with nothing to contradict or disprove it (in the feat of lifting the Ravager and the fleet from Malachor). So, I'm sticking with it until something comes along to disprove it.

I clearly said I'm not talking about the statement he lifted his fleet of ships up from Malachor. Not the bit about him holding the Ravager together.

And I switched from talking about Nihilus to the Ancient Sith because that statement by Traya irritates me with the fact it has no basis in facts. It contradicts everything we actually know of the Ancients, in fact.

Kun, Nihius and Sidious all surpassed any Ancient Sith.