Jedi Exile vs Ulic Qel Droma

Started by Allankles21 pages
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes I've played it, and then Mandalore blew up the Ravager long after Nihilus is dead.

Easy there! When was it canonically stated that he blows the ship long after Nihilus died? Keep the speculations to your fanfics.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Weak argument? Yet again you have not presented a single point in either this debate or the Revan debate, which is why it was defeated so easily. Your argument yet again dies when you realize Mandalore set off the Proton bombs.

Yes, weak! It's a silly argument: "why didn't Nihilus' ship break down immediately after Nihilus died?" It shows how narrow minded you are. First of all, I wouldn't have the answers, Kotor 2 never specified how he kept his ship together. Secondly, we wouldn't know whether the integrity of the Ravager was dependent on a continual conscience effort by Nihilus.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nihilus' drain is the only thing that makes him stand out, yet he couldn't deal with Traya nor the exile.

This is rather irrelevant, you should know. I entertained you with a few rebuttals, but I tire of arguing over the most irrelevant points. I told you before, whether you're powerful because you were born in a force vortex or not is irrelevant as it's all fiction. Your bias leads you to be irrational.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So?

She had tons more knowledge than Kun, years more.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Of course not but logical deduction states that Kun knew a shitload more than Traya, as did Revan. Understand it or shut up.

A fail to see what is logical about assuming a relatively young and green Jedi, with a 6 month crush course on Sith arts can have more knowledge than a many decades wizened Jedi historian, Sith Lord and Sith Academy Master.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Quality>Quantity. Yoda was 800+ years and his knowledge didn't surpass that of Sidious who was 60, which destroys your argument again.

Hardly. Sidious had more than a 6 month crush course in Sith knowledge, besides he only surpassed Yoda in Sith knowledge, and as we know - Yoda was never Sith.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
As I've stated earlier, piss poor debaters such as yourself seem to have a weird grasp on reality. Just in case you don't get it, i'm calling you delusional.

Piss poor? I think you're poorer than you give yourself credit for. Debate lesson one, meaningless insults don't win you debates.

Piss poor? I think your poorer than you give yourself credit for. Debate lesson one, meaningless insults don't win you debates.

Something he'll never learn.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Piss poor? I think your poorer than you give yourself credit for. Debate lesson one, meaningless insults don't win you debates.

Something he'll never learn.

I'm guessing he thinks that throwing an insult here and there will help his debate. I see him do it alot with Nebaris, almost as if he expects that Nebaris' arguments should fall in the face of his little digs.

Edit

Originally posted by Allankles
Easy there! When was it canonically stated that he blows the ship long after Nihilus died? Keep the speculations to your fanfics.

You've proven my point, thank you. There's nothing canon about Nihilus allegedly holding his ship up.

Yes, weak! It's a silly argument: "why didn't Nihilus' ship break down immediately after Nihilus died?" It shows how narrow minded you are. First of all, I wouldn't have the answers, Kotor 2 never specified how he kept his ship together. Secondly, we wouldn't know whether the integrity of the Ravager was dependent on a continual conscience effort by Nihilus.

Translation: I'm making an assertion and I can't back it up so I'm going to make up some baseless bullshit and pass it off as fact.

This is rather irrelevant, you should know. I entertained you with a few rebuttals, but I tire of arguing over the most irrelevant points. I told you before, whether you're powerful because you were born in a force vortex or not is irrelevant as it's all fiction. Your bias leads you to be irrational.

Once again, you don't know how debate objectively, nor how to debate at all, so don't pass your inabilities off as me being irrational.

She had tons more knowledge than Kun, years more.

Once again quality>quantity and raw force potential>all

A fail to see what is logical about assuming a relatively young and green Jedi, with a 6 month crush course on Sith arts can have more knowledge than a many decades wizened Jedi historian, Sith Lord and Sith Academy Master.

Hardly. Sidious had more than a 6 month crush course in Sith knowledge, besides he only surpassed Yoda in Sith knowledge, and as we know - Yoda was never Sith.

No no, Sidious' knowledge surpassed that of Yoda as well considering he knew the ways of the Jedi, so your point is defeated.

Piss poor? I think you're poorer than you give yourself credit for. Debate lesson one, meaningless insults don't win you debates. [/B]

You're right, but when arguing against you our AC, insults are just extra, neither one of you can debate.

You're right, but when arguing against you our AC, insults are just extra, neither one of you can debate.

Sure, we can't debate, your so LEET 🙄 . Even if we couldn't (which is BS) at least, as I said we can form a sentence that makes sense.

The Sith Lords (Sion, Traya and Nihilus) were obviously powerful Sith. They were able to hunt down and destroy almost all of the Jedi in the galaxy.

Nihilus was powerful enough to destroy planets just with the Force. It has been stated more than once that he keeps the ship together (statements by Visas and Colonel Tobin come to mind). When he dies the ship starts falling to pieces. It's only after the Exile leaves the Ravager that Mandalore blows is up. The only reason the Exile could fight Nihulus was because he was a wound in the Force himself . No one else would have a chance.

Sion's power was impressive because nothing could kill him. That's why the fight was about strength of will. How many times did you kill him and he would regenerate I counted 3. The only reason Sion lost is because he had a weak will.

Traya was quite powerful herself she was able to was able to kill three Jedi counsel members with one attack. Was able to wield three or more lightsabers in battle with the Force.

The Jedi Exile himself is more powerful than any of these (he did kill them). While not being able to destroy entire planets or regenerate from lethal wounds he becomes stronger with every one he kills (explained by the masters on Dantooine). The Exile WAS a average Force user before the Mandalorian wars but after the events of Malachor V he grows stronger and stronger because of his unique power. His skill is easy to prove just see how fast he learns the Force and lightsaber forms from the masters. By the end of the game the Exile easily defeats Dark Jedi (which are average Force users) and loads of Sith troopers. To claim that the Exile is an average Force user is ridicules and can mean only 2 things:

1 You didn't pay attention to what is said in the game.
2 You couldn't understand what is said in the game.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Sure, we can't debate, your so LEET 🙄 . Even if we couldn't (which is BS) at least, as I said we can form a sentence that makes sense.

Wouldn't it be you're? If you're going to concede an argument by pointing out spelling mistakes, make sure your spelling is correct, otherwise you look like a fool.

Originally posted by the_satan32
The Sith Lords (Sion, Traya and Nihilus) were obviously powerful Sith. They were able to hunt down and destroy almost all of the Jedi in the galaxy.

Nihilus was powerful enough to destroy planets just with the Force. It has been stated more than once that he keeps the ship together (statements by Visas and Colonel Tobin come to mind). When he dies the ship starts falling to pieces. It's only after the Exile leaves the Ravager that Mandalore blows is up. The only reason the Exile could fight Nihulus was because he was a wound in the Force himself . No one else would have a chance.

Sion's power was impressive because nothing could kill him. That's why the fight was about strength of will. How many times did you kill him and he would regenerate I counted 3. The only reason Sion lost is because he had a weak will.

Traya was quite powerful herself she was able to was able to kill three Jedi counsel members with one attack. Was able to wield three or more lightsabers in battle with the Force.

The Jedi Exile himself is more powerful than any of these (he did kill them). While not being able to destroy entire planets or regenerate from lethal wounds he becomes stronger with every one he kills (explained by the masters on Dantooine). The Exile WAS a average Force user before the Mandalorian wars but after the events of Malachor V he grows stronger and stronger because of his unique power. His skill is easy to prove just see how fast he learns the Force and lightsaber forms from the masters. By the end of the game the Exile easily defeats Dark Jedi (which are average Force users) and loads of Sith troopers. To claim that the Exile is an average Force user is ridicules and can mean only 2 things:

1 You didn't pay attention to what is said in the game.
2 You couldn't understand what is said in the game.

Apparently you don't understand the concept of gameplay mechanics either,a nd you didn't pay attention to the game either, since the exile was a SHE.

Uh, the game NEVER says the Exile was a she, that was later said by the developpers.

Your arguments are well thought out Darthsexy🙄 , except you only seem to be able to make relatively legible responses at best, you can't seem to make a logical argument even when we (metaphorically speaking) slap you in the face with sound reasoning.

You're grabbing at straws here, and I'm not just saying that (like a lot of posters tend to do).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wouldn't it be you're? If you're going to concede an argument by pointing out spelling mistakes, make sure your spelling is correct, otherwise you look like a fool.

Nice job retard you missed the point again (you do that a lot). I said "at least, as I said we can form a sentence that makes sense." Do you see ANYTHING about spelling? PAY ATTENTION. WTF are you talking about? I haven't conceded shit, but again PAY ATTENTION.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Apparently you don't understand the concept of gameplay mechanics either,a nd you didn't pay attention to the game either, since the exile was a SHE.

In the game the Exile can either male or female. I consider him a male and I don't really count this canon about gender since it doesn't really change gameplay.

Darth Sexy, you completely ignored my points and said something that isn't even true. "Apparently you don't understand the concept of gameplay mechanics" no apparently you don't understand them. If the Exile is more powerful than normal Dark Jedi in the game than that obviously means that he is a above normal Dark Jedi. Why is it so difficult to understand that? He killed 3 Sith Lords (and 3 Jedi Counsel members if he's DS) He destroyed countless Droids, Sith troopes, Dark Jedi and bounty hunters. Isn't that enough of a testament to his power?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You've proven my point, thank you. There's nothing canon about Nihilus allegedly holding his ship up.

There is: Kotor 2. Kotor 2> Darthsaxy's bias and all round irrational "arguments"

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Translation: I'm making an assertion and I can't back it up so I'm going to make up some baseless bullshit and pass it off as fact.

Translation: you have a small reasoning capacity at best. It's in the game, I didn't come up with the idea out of thin air, it's part of Kotor 2. So ponder that, if you can, and lets see you come back with the same stupid argument.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Once again, you don't know how debate objectively, nor how to debate at all, so don't pass your inabilities off as me being irrational.

Objectivity? When were you ever objective? Denying in-game ideas simply because you don't agree with them is objectivity, right?! Get out of here with this bs - you're the last person who should talk about objectivity.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Once again quality>quantity and raw force potential>all.

I don't care about some arbitrary idea like force potential, or some half assed baseless assertion like quality. I'm talking about knowledge, and Kreia has a ton of more knowledge than Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No no, Sidious' knowledge surpassed that of Yoda as well considering he knew the ways of the Jedi, so your point is defeated..

I don't care what you think, Sidious didn't have more knowledge of the force than Yoda, that's a ridiculous idea. Sidious was one of the most knowledgable Sith in history, he'd know about the Jedi obviously, but Yoda knew more about the force overall.

Y

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ou're right, but when arguing against you our AC, insults are just extra, neither one of you can debate.

Ya extra: an extra waste of time on your part. Your arguments are pretty weak to begin with, I'm just telling you not to expend energy where it doesn't help your already poor debating.

Originally posted by Allankles
There is: Kotor 2. Kotor 2> Darthsaxy's bias and all round irrational "arguments"

Says the terrible debater.

Translation: you have a small reasoning capacity at best. It's in the game, I didn't come up with the idea out of thin air, it's part of Kotor 2. So ponder that, if you can, and lets see you come back with the same stupid argument.

This coming from the guy who got wtfpwned in the Revan debate because he didn't like the storyline.

I don't care about some arbitrary idea like force potential, or some half assed baseless assertion like quality. I'm talking about knowledge, and Kreia has a ton of more knowledge than Exar Kun.

No, you're speculating based on your ignorance and stupidity, while I'm giving you facts and logical deduction. Either prove up or shut up twinkletoes.

I don't care what you think, Sidious didn't have more knowledge of the force than Yoda, that's a ridiculous idea. Sidious was one of the most knowledgable Sith in history, he'd know about the Jedi obviously, but Yoda knew more about the force overall.

Sidious had more techniques, Jedi and sith techniques, try again.

Ya extra: an extra waste of time on your part. Your arguments are pretty weak to begin with, I'm just telling you not to expend energy where it doesn't help your already poor debating. [/B]

Again, this is coming from someone who I wtfpwned in the Revan debate because you chose to argue how bad the storyline is rather than argue logically about things that matter.

Originally posted by Allankles
Look at your rebuttals Darth Sexy or whoever it is that bothered to quote my posts; I state that Nihilus kept the internal atmosphere of his ship normal despite massive breaches in the hull, you say there were windows. Did you ever play through the Ravager level? As it's quite clear that many parts of the ship were exposed to open space, including the bridge.

Did you ever use the smallest bit of logic ? Really. This is the SW universe. Starships in the SW universe do have...what...shields ? OMG ! Blastdoors ? WTF ! As we've seen in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan enter Grievous ship both shields and security doors are capable of keeping the atmosphere inside a ship. So if the shields were working, there was no need to waste any concentration on keeping the air in. Hell...in fact it would be stupid to waste energy in keeping air in regions of the ship which were obviously not used and unimportant. Who would do something like that ?

And again I can only say: Had Nihilus used the force to keep the air inside the ship, it would have been released completely in the very same second in that he died. This did obviously not happen.


Then you present a weak argument against Kotor 2 statement on Nihilus keeping the ship intact, Kotor 2 stated that he used the force to keep his ship intact, and it gets destroyed soon after Nihilus dies, so how the hell do you have an argument here? The specifics of what Nihilus did to actually keep his ship together are unknown, what matters is is that he did keep his ship intact - be logical.

Woah. Where does KotoR 2 say he keeps his ship intact with his will / his force powers / anything else ? In fact the Exile and his friends enter the Ravager and plant bombs there which would be a totally useless action if they did suggest that the Ravager would simply be destroyed by the death of Nihilus since he "kept it together". The specifics of what he did to keep it intact are unknown. Maybe he told some engineer to repair the ship constantly ? Woah. That would be "keeping it intact" right ? And we should be logical ? Very funny.


As for Nihilis force techniques outside of his force drain, you only added "besides the basics" when I pointed out examples where Nihilus used techniques outside of force drain. Besides, your argument here is rather piss poor, as its completely based on your preference. Nihilus' drain makes him uber powerful and he's able to effect it because he's uber powerful, whichever way you look at it (logically).

Damn it. Considering that everyone and there mothers can use force drain, how does that make Nihilus "uber powerful" ? Sidious was capable of repeating his feat (planet draining). The Sith on Ambria that Thon did defeat (TOTJ era) did do the same. Ragnos sceptre is capable of performing something similar.
And there are defences against it (minimizing the own presence in the force) meaning that everyone capable of doing this (ranging from Tholme to DN Luke Skywalker) would kick Nihilus sorry ass across the place.

Yet I don't see how that matters in this thread. The Exile did just defeat Nihilus because of her natural resistance (hole in the force) against the force drain ability which wouldn't help her against Ulic.


Anyway, "basic", as you say, is really a matter of interpretation.

Nope. Anything that can be learned rather fast is "basic". Any application of telekinesis is "basic use" of the force. Advanced force use would be force lightning, force storms - essentially everything that requires a certain technique and not just application of raw power.


Lastly, Kreia was a Jedi Master for many years, and we know this because she was Revan's first trainer many decades before Kotor 2 and it's implied that she had many more padawans in her time as a Jedi. It should also be noted that she claimed to have followed Atris' path i.e. studying Jedi and Sith holocrons for years to uncover force secrets.

This is really hilarious.
For you again: People in that time weren't trained from infancy on, meaning that Revan can have joined the Jedi Order just some years before the events shown in KotoR. Same goes for Kreia. On the other hand there were some people who were trained from infancy on, which might be true for Kun.

The problem is that their respective amount of training time is unknown, hence you can't compare them. Technically Kreia could have been a regular Jedi Knight when she trained Revan just a few years before KotoR 2 (both just having a few years of training) while Kun could have spent decades in training the Jedi arts before the events of TOTJ.

And it doesn't really matter. Kreia when training Revan did already suggest that he was more powerful than her ("heart of the force"😉.
Obviously Revans raw power and his ambitions to learn new stuff (and his abilities to do so) did exceed that of Kreia. And actually the same can be said about Kun. He at least did advance from "Padawan" to Sith Lord capable of killing his master and constructing own Sith amulets in six months of time. And that can be enough time if you have a nice knowledge base. Hell...again I can only show Luke as example who did advance clearly between ESB and ROTJ and all he had was Obi-Wans diary.


As far as Kun's knowledge goes, he may have had too much knowledge to use within 6 months, but the omniscient narrator never claims that Kun was the most knowledgeable Sith in history.

The narrator says he had more knowledge than he could ever use. Got that know ? He simply did possess more knowledge than he could ever apply in his lifetime. And going by the sheer amount and variety of the sources for that knowledge he had (ranging from what Sadow left behind to the stuff he stole from Ossus) he might have been one of the most knowledgeable Sith in history.


Logically Kreia, should have been many years more knowledgeable than Kun. She was a historian and chronicler for years, as well as master of a Sith academy for the better part of five years, she's clearly had alot more time than Kun to gain knowledge in the force. Nebaris made a valid point in this case.

Since when can knowledge be measured in years ? Stupid idea. If I can read twice as fast as you, I can archieve twice as much knowledge from books compared to you in the same amount of time. Such things are dependant on talent when talking about force powers or lightsaber abilities. Again I can only come up with Luke since he is the best example: In six years he went from somebody who didn't use the force to somebody able to beat Darth Vader. Notice how utterly Jedi Masters and entire groups of Jedi did fail to do that in Vader's past.


As for what Nihilus did to Kreia in the cutscene, why should we argue incessantly over what is clearly specualtion on both our parts? The evidence says it was tk blast, anything beyond that is speculation based on what is read in Kreia's words, what we actually see, is a telekinetic force slamming Kreia onto a wall.

You want to believe you interpretation is the truth? You lose.

How is the fact that she wasn't able to use the force after that assault from Nihilus "speculation", hmm ? How is the fact that she even says herself that she was "stripped from her power" speculation ? A mere force push wouldn't cause effects like that. So my "interpretation" is no "interpretation" - it's simply a presentation of two single facts that say "force drain" in bolt, blinking letters.

Until now I really never found somebody stupid enough to argue that his wasn't a force drain given the evidence that it was...


BTW The Exile beats Ulic.

Can you please explain this brillant, genious and absolutely stunning conclusion ? Average Jedi Knight without special abilities or training (Exile) VS Sith Lord equipped with a Dark Side amulet, offensive force powers and vast lightsaber abilities. Yet somehow, the average Jedi wins. Yeah. Nice logic, that is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EogIiuZI9PQ

Here Tobin says that he (Nihilus) holds it together.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Did you ever use the smallest bit of logic ? Really. This is the SW universe. Starships in the SW universe do have...what...shields ? OMG ! Blastdoors ? WTF ! As we've seen in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan enter Grievous ship both shields and security doors are capable of keeping the atmosphere [b]inside a ship. So if the shields were working, there was no need to waste any concentration on keeping the air in. Hell...in fact it would be stupid to waste energy in keeping air in regions of the ship which were obviously not used and unimportant. Who would do something like that ?

And again I can only say: Had Nihilus used the force to keep the air inside the ship, it would have been released completely in the very same second in that he died. This did obviously not happen.

Woah. Where does KotoR 2 say he keeps his ship intact with his will / his force powers / anything else ? In fact the Exile and his friends enter the Ravager and plant bombs there which would be a totally useless action if they did suggest that the Ravager would simply be destroyed by the death of Nihilus since he "kept it together". The specifics of what he did to keep it intact are unknown. Maybe he told some engineer to repair the ship constantly ? Woah. That would be "keeping it intact" right ? And we should be logical ? Very funny.

Damn it. Considering that everyone and there mothers can use force drain, how does that make Nihilus "uber powerful" ? Sidious was capable of repeating his feat (planet draining). The Sith on Ambria that Thon did defeat (TOTJ era) did do the same. Ragnos sceptre is capable of performing something similar.
And there are defences against it (minimizing the own presence in the force) meaning that everyone capable of doing this (ranging from Tholme to DN Luke Skywalker) would kick Nihilus sorry ass across the place.

Yet I don't see how that matters in this thread. The Exile did just defeat Nihilus because of her natural resistance (hole in the force) against the force drain ability which wouldn't help her against Ulic.

Nope. Anything that can be learned rather fast is "basic". Any application of telekinesis is "basic use" of the force. Advanced force use would be force lightning, force storms - essentially everything that requires a certain technique and not just application of raw power.

This is really hilarious.
For you again: People in that time weren't trained from infancy on, meaning that Revan can have joined the Jedi Order just some years before the events shown in KotoR. Same goes for Kreia. On the other hand there were some people who were trained from infancy on, which might be true for Kun.

The problem is that their respective amount of training time is unknown, hence you can't compare them. Technically Kreia could have been a regular Jedi Knight when she trained Revan just a few years before KotoR 2 (both just having a few years of training) while Kun could have spent decades in training the Jedi arts before the events of TOTJ.

And it doesn't really matter. Kreia when training Revan did already suggest that he was more powerful than her ("heart of the force"😉.
Obviously Revans raw power and his ambitions to learn new stuff (and his abilities to do so) did exceed that of Kreia. And actually the same can be said about Kun. He at least did advance from "Padawan" to Sith Lord capable of killing his master and constructing own Sith amulets in six months of time. And that can be enough time if you have a nice knowledge base. Hell...again I can only show Luke as example who did advance clearly between ESB and ROTJ and all he had was Obi-Wans diary.

The narrator says he had more knowledge than he could ever use. Got that know ? He simply did possess more knowledge than he could ever apply in his lifetime. And going by the sheer amount and variety of the sources for that knowledge he had (ranging from what Sadow left behind to the stuff he stole from Ossus) he might have been one of the most knowledgeable Sith in history.

Since when can knowledge be measured in years ? Stupid idea. If I can read twice as fast as you, I can archieve twice as much knowledge from books compared to you in the same amount of time. Such things are dependant on talent when talking about force powers or lightsaber abilities. Again I can only come up with Luke since he is the best example: In six years he went from somebody who didn't use the force to somebody able to beat Darth Vader. Notice how utterly Jedi Masters and entire groups of Jedi did fail to do that in Vader's past.

How is the fact that she wasn't able to use the force after that assault from Nihilus "speculation", hmm ? How is the fact that she even says herself that she was "stripped from her power" speculation ? A mere force push wouldn't cause effects like that. So my "interpretation" is no "interpretation" - it's simply a presentation of two single facts that say "force drain" in bolt, blinking letters.

Until now I really never found somebody stupid enough to argue that his wasn't a force drain given the evidence that it was...

Can you please explain this brillant, genious and absolutely stunning conclusion ? Average Jedi Knight without special abilities or training (Exile) VS Sith Lord equipped with a Dark Side amulet, offensive force powers and vast lightsaber abilities. Yet somehow, the average Jedi wins. Yeah. Nice logic, that is. [/B]

Thank you Nai, with Escape, Advent, and Lightsnake posting here rarely nowadays, logic seems to be lost.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Did you ever use the smallest bit of logic ? Really. This is the SW universe. Starships in the SW universe do have...what...shields ? OMG ! Blastdoors ? WTF ! As we've seen in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan enter Grievous ship both shields and security doors are capable of keeping the atmosphere [b]inside a ship. So if the shields were working, there was no need to waste any concentration on keeping the air in. Hell...in fact it would be stupid to waste energy in keeping air in regions of the ship which were obviously not used and unimportant. Who would do something like that ?

And again I can only say: Had Nihilus used the force to keep the air inside the ship, it would have been released completely in the very same second in that he died. This did obviously not happen. [/B]

First of all there aren't any blast doors on the roof of the exposed bridge, or some of the rooms you have to go inside of, to place the protocon cores, so dumb argument again. Secondly, if you knew anything about ship tech in sci-fi you'd know that energy shields can't compensate for a breached hull, that's why they builds ships with you know... hulls.

Dumb argument 2 destroyed quite easily. If your hull is breached you have to get something to plug it, the Ravager's atmosphere remains normal despite the absence of any sought of "plug".

And I've already mentioned as you get to see below, Kotor 2 implicitly states that Nihilus did keep his ship intact, and looking at how the internal atmosphere stayed normal (in the bridge for instance) while it was exposed to open space, it's quite clearly understandable that Nihilus did keep the internal atmosphere of his ship normal by some unknown power and or technique. Should we go back to this stupid argument of yours, or will you finally get around to stop arguing over irrelevant points?

Originally posted by Borbarad

Woah. Where does KotoR 2 say he keeps his ship intact with his will / his force powers / anything else ?

See above^.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Damn it. Considering that everyone and there mothers can use force drain, how does that make Nihilus "uber powerful" ? Sidious was capable of repeating his feat (planet draining). The Sith on Ambria that Thon did defeat (TOTJ era) did do the same. Ragnos sceptre is capable of performing something similar.
And there are defences against it (minimizing the own presence in the force) meaning that everyone capable of doing this (ranging from Tholme to DN Luke Skywalker) would kick Nihilus sorry ass across the place.

According to you everyone and there mother can force drain an entire planet, right?! Nihilus is uber, his force drain speaks for itself, I don't need to write another sentence on this point.

Y

Originally posted by Borbarad
et I don't see how that matters in this thread. The Exile did just defeat Nihilus because of her natural resistance (hole in the force) against the force drain ability which wouldn't help her against Ulic.

It was only brought up because someone mentioned Kun, doesn't matter, the Exile has more than enough qualities to take Ulic.

NY

Originally posted by Borbarad
ope. Anything that can be learned rather fast is "basic". Any application of telekinesis is "basic use" of the force. Advanced force use would be force lightning, force storms - essentially everything that requires a certain technique and not just application of raw power.

Oh brother! When have the specifics of what it entails to learn these techniques ever been written? Your talking out of your ass, I say "basic" is all a matter of interpretation, but that's just me.

As an example I'll point out that Jacen in Traitor was able to cast some form of lightning while in a rage, does that become a "basic" technique to you? Don't even bother with a response, because the answer doesn't matter. Please refrain from bringing up these frail arguments.

NY

Originally posted by Borbarad
This is really hilarious.
For you again: People in that time weren't trained from infancy on, meaning that Revan can have joined the Jedi Order just some years before the events shown in KotoR. Same goes for Kreia. On the other hand there were some people who were trained from infancy on, which might be true for Kun.

The problem is that their respective amount of training time is unknown, hence you can't compare them. Technically Kreia could have been a regular Jedi Knight when she trained Revan just a few years before KotoR 2 (both just having a few years of training) while Kun could have spent decades in training the Jedi arts before the events of TOTJ.

Most Jedi were trained from childhood even then, we see examples like the Exile (who can't remember his parents because he was taken by the Jedi as a child), Kreia herself implies that she never knew her parents, even when it comes to Revan she further implies that Revan was trained from childhood and she was his first master.

The Jedi from an early time realized the value of severing a child's ties to the family as early as possible, so as to make them more dedicated Jedi.

So your argument here is pure speculation. Kreia herself mentions that she was a Jedi historian and chronicler many years before Kotor 2 and that long ago (certainly more than Kun's 6 months) she followed Atris' path i.e. gathering sith and jedi holocrons to uncover secrets of the force.

Kreia is vastly more experienced than Kun and does posses more knowledge than Kun, she concerned herself with the pursuit of knowledge for many decades, this is indisputable. You're trying to argue that her experience as a Jedi was far less than her years suggest, this is quite obviously one of your weakest arguments.

And an average Jedi doesn't:-

End a civil war virtually single handedly

Dismantle a crime syndicate in a short time.

End a massive mercenary incursion on a colony world.

Defeat three powerful Sith Lord's and a Dark Jedi like Traya, Sion, Nihilus and Atris.

And lets not forget preventing the collapse of the Republic with these actions and paving the way for a new legacy of Jedi that would live on until the PT period.

Yeah Ulic was great, but the Exile is quite obviously a greater Jedi and has many talents to go along with that greatness.

Also, could you please shorten your overly long posts? Arguing with you is like reading through a book on librarians, which is to say it's almost a chore. I'm here to have irreverent discourse, please don't turn it into a thesis on basic and non basic force techniques.

Originally posted by Allankles
First of all there aren't any blast doors on the roof of the exposed bridge, or some of the rooms you have to go inside of, to place the protocon cores, so dumb argument again. Secondly, if you knew anything about ship tech in sci-fi you'd know that energy shields can't compensate for a breached hull, that's why they builds ships with you know... hulls.

Want to argue against canon again ? Go and watch RotS. Watch the opening sequence. Anakin and Obi-Wan just before entering Grievous ship do destroy the shield that is in front of the hangar entrance. And the shield...obviously kept the air inside the hangar as Anakin and Obi-Wan are both breathing their which should be possible in...a vacuum. And notice how the air didn't leave the hangar in the same moment the shield was destroyed. The same principle also works for the Death Star hangars in ANH and ROTJ where nothing but an energy shield is between the hangar bay and outer space.

So if you knew anything about ship tech in Star Wars, you would have noticed that shields actually do keep the air inside a room.


Dumb argument 2 destroyed quite easily. If your hull is breached you have to get something to plug it, the Ravager's atmosphere remains normal despite the absence of any sought of "plug".

See above. Simply wrong.


And I've already mentioned as you get to see below, Kotor 2 implicitly states that Nihilus did keep his ship intact, and looking at how the internal atmosphere stayed normal (in the bridge for instance) while it was exposed to open space, it's quite clearly understandable that Nihilus did keep the internal atmosphere of his ship normal by some unknown power and or technique. Should we go back to this stupid argument of yours, or will you finally get around to stop arguing over irrelevant points?

Oh yeah. Tobin says that Nihilus "keeps the ship together" replying to Mandalore who suggest that it shouldn't be able to fly because of the structural damage. Yet obviously, and I don't know how often I do have to hammer that into your brain, if Nihilus did indeed keep the ship together it should have been destroyed in the second of his death. Yet that didn't happen.
And aside of that this entire statement is pretty much stupid. How should a space ship be destroyed by "stuctural damage" in outer space ? Unless some gravitation source pulls pieces of it apart, I really can't see what should damage the ship. In a vacuum that does actually need some sort of force being applied against the ship which is...not present.


According to you everyone and there mother can force drain an entire planet, right?! Nihilus is uber, his force drain speaks for itself, I
don't need to write another sentence on this point.

You mean the same force drain that is an extend of his "hunger". The same thing that Kreia comments with "There is no power behind his hunger" ? Woah. Nihilus was beaten by an average Jedi (quote of Vrook about the Exile) who was lucky enough to have some sort of resistance against the force drain. That's exactly how "powerful" he is.


It was only brought up because someone mentioned Kun, doesn't matter, the Exile has more than enough qualities to take Ulic.

Name some.


Oh brother! When have the specifics of what it entails to learn these techniques ever been written? Your talking out of your ass, I say "basic" is all a matter of interpretation, but that's just me.

Oh genious. You do notice that there are certain techniques that every Jedi is capable of using while there are some which are restricted to person who learned corresponding force techniques. For example: Every force user can use telekinesis. Basic. Not every force user can use force lightning. Hence it's not a "basic" ability.


As an example I'll point out that Jacen in Traitor was able to cast some form of lightning while in a rage, does that become a "basic" technique to you? Don't even bother with a response, because the answer doesn't matter. Please refrain from bringing up these frail arguments.

Damn. Jacen ? The same Jacen who did learn everything from Luke Skywalker. You know. Luke Skywalker who scimmed through Sidious amassed Dark Side knowledge during the DE series and is famous for electrocuting Yuuzhang Vong and Killiks with emerald lightning. Yeah. I really wonder how Jacen could have archieved knowledge how to use force lightning. Especially in a time when Luke basically allowed the use of Dark Side techniques.


Most Jedi were trained from childhood even then, we see examples like the Exile (who can't remember his parents because he was taken by the Jedi as a child), Kreia herself implies that she never knew her parents, even when it comes to Revan she further implies that Revan was trained from childhood and she was his first master.

This is great. Most people ? In the TOTJ comics I don't see a single one trained from infancy on - but that's just me of course.

Then let's go on. The Exile, who suffers from a total amnesia, doesn't remember her parents ? WTF ! Great revelation. Kreia "implies" that Revan never knew his parents ?

"Revan had a mother and father, parents, ancestors, like all Jedi do. And when he awakened to his potential, I was there to see it. But where he was born, where he came from, I do not know…"

Wow. Revan had parents, ancestors and he knew his whereabouts obviously and Kreia who did see his potential awaken doesn't know where he comes from. Yeah. That totally implies he was trained from his earliest years on. Oh wait. No. Actually it implies the exact opposite.

And for Kreia herself I would need a quote.


The Jedi from an early time realized the value of severing a child's ties to the family as early as possible, so as to make them more dedicated Jedi.

No. They didn't. The rule that only children are accepted into the Jedi order was established in 1,000 BBY during the Ruusan reformation to minimize the risk for a Jedi to turn to the Dark Side. That's 3,000 years after the events shown in KotoR. In fact you even see that right before that time (Jedi vs Sith comics) the Jedi did only recruit children to their ranks because there was a war going on. Hell...Nomi Sunrider didn't even train her own daughter in the Jedi arts for more than a decade. So you are simply wrong here.


So your argument here is pure speculation. Kreia herself mentions that she was a Jedi historian and chronicler many years before Kotor 2 and that long ago (certainly more than Kun's 6 months) she followed Atris' path i.e. gathering sith and jedi holocrons to uncover secrets of the force.

Kreia is vastly more experienced than Kun and does posses more knowledge than Kun, she concerned herself with the pursuit of knowledge for many decades, this is indisputable. You're trying to argue that her experience as a Jedi was far less than her years suggest, this is quite obviously one of your weakest arguments.

No. What I'm trying to tell you is, that experience is pretty much a non-issue in the SW universe. Kun did defeat people who were much older than Kreia, including the 1,000 year old Odan Urr. That done with a single force attack. Luke in DE was capable of defeating one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history who had more than 90 years of Dark Side training under his sleeve in a lightsaber duel - with just 6 years of force training. Anakin did kill Dooku despite the fact that he just had roughly 1 decade of training, where Dooku had 80 years. Got it now ?


And an average Jedi doesn't:-

End a civil war virtually single handedly

Dismantle a crime syndicate in a short time.

End a massive mercenary incursion on a colony world.

Defeat three powerful Sith Lord's and a Dark Jedi like Traya, Sion, Nihilus and Atris.

What's that ? Feat wars ?
First you have to take into consideration that the limitation of the "three party member groups" in KotoR is just gameplay. That means: For most of the actions we can suggest that the Exile was working together with all of her companions. That turns some of the feats down quite a few levels.

And please. Defeat three powerful Sith Lords ?
Defeat of Nihilus happens in a 1 vs 3 during which the Sith can be weakend multiple times via manipulation (e.g. talking, then utilizing Visas connection to her master) and because of one single special ability. Wow. Sion is basically "talked into death" and for Kreia we can suggest that she didn't really want to kill her beloved student. Leaves Atris previously weakened through confrontation with Brianna.


And lets not forget preventing the collapse of the Republic with these actions and paving the way for a new legacy of Jedi that would live on until the PT period.

That surely says...nothing about actual skills but thanks.


Yeah Ulic was great, but the Exile is quite obviously a greater Jedi and has many talents to go along with that greatness.

Oh yes. Of course.
Let me see. Ulic did defeat Mandalore in personal confrontation, slaughtered his brother Cay, unleashed a nice war on the Republic, managed to stalemate Exar Kun. Yet Kun did utterly destroy people who, following your own definition, should have been leagues above Kreia in terms of knowledge and power. And while having no access to the force any longer he was capable of fending off an enraged Jedi for minutes in a lightsaber duel. Rather interesting because nobody else with the exception of Grievous, has pulled something like this off before or after.

Compared to that the Exile did what exactly ? Killing people that were previously weakened ? Yeah. Great.