Jedi Exile vs Ulic Qel Droma

average Jedi (quote of Vrook about the Exile)

And since when is Vrook the epitome of objectivity? He berated Revan, and Vandar flat out disagree with him. Nice that you included all that though.

Then let's go on. The Exile, who suffers from a total amnesia, doesn't remember her parents ? WTF ! Great revelation.

The Exile has amnesia now? Where the hell did you get that from?

No. They didn't. The rule that only children are accepted into the Jedi order was established in 1,000 BBY during the Ruusan reformation to minimize the risk for a Jedi to turn to the Dark Side. That's 3,000 years after the events shown in KotoR. In fact you even see that right before that time (Jedi vs Sith comics) the Jedi did only recruit children to their ranks because there was a war going on. Hell...Nomi Sunrider didn't even train her own daughter in the Jedi arts for more than a decade. So you are simply wrong here.

For what its worth the KOTOR comics show the Jedi adopting children into their ranks about two decades after the Great Sith Wars.

Wow. Sion is basically "talked into death"

So she didn't beat him five times? Your making it sound like they sat on a couch and The Exile had a long discussion with him and told him to die.

and for Kreia we can suggest that she didn't really want to kill her beloved student.

Already been proved wrong, the point of the final battle was a test if she was strong to go to war with Revan, In this context Kreia has no clear reason to hold back, as she was testing and what would be the point of the test if she was holding back?

Leaves Atris previously weakened through confrontation with Brianna.

Since you can't actually harm Atris as Brianna and Atris tools her rather easily with force lightning we can assume it wasn't anything near a hard fought battle.

Let me see. Ulic did defeat Mandalore in personal confrontation,

And owning a non force user in personal combat is impressive?

slaughtered his brother Cay,

And Cay is now some how strong?

unleashed a nice war on the Republic,

and?

while having no access to the force any longer he was capable of fending off an enraged Jedi for minutes in a lightsaber duel.

I'm glad you somehow know the passage of time by looking at pictures. Not to mention Ulic is in a full run in one of the panels.

Rather interesting because nobody else with the exception of Grievous, has pulled something like this off before or after.

Because who wields a lightsaber other then Jedi? And you didn't mention Ulic was in extreme physical shape, and was as said a very accomplished lightsaber duelist, why wouldn't he have muscle memory?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And since when is Vrook the epitome of objectivity? He berated Revan, and Vandar flat out disagree with him. Nice that you included all that though.

So she didn't beat him five times? Your making it sound like they sat on a couch and The Exile had a long discussion with him and told him to die.

Already been proved wrong, the point of the final battle was a test if she was strong to go to war with Revan, In this context Kreia has no clear reason to hold back, as she was testing and what would be the point of the test if she was holding back?

And owning a non force user in personal combat is impressive?

Because who wields a lightsaber other then Jedi? And you didn't mention Ulic was in extreme physical shape, and was as said a very accomplished lightsaber duelist, why wouldn't he have muscle memory? [/B]

What are you stupid? Not a few hours ago you were using the Jedi Masters' own words to somehow prove the exile learned all 7 forms. Double Standards much dumbass?

or Vrook even though he out right stated he didn't like the Exile admitted that:

"Your form is a little sloppy but you've got it."

Nice Job at reading though.

No dumbass, that's like saying if I beat Malak within 20 seconds, that the canon fight was easy for Revan. Unfortunately we don't know HOW the exile defeated her opponents, nor how Revan beat Malak. Shut up with your gameplay.

Logical deduction tells us but thats far above your intellect level, not that it matters all that matters is she did with either the force or saber, and since force power is directly tied into how well you perform with a saber and how good you are it doesn't really matter which.

And she wasn't in a murderous rage to kill the exile either. Think Vodo's second fight with Kun.

She kinda was when she screams about how there can be no mercy when you offer to redeem her, after you beat her the first time, Nice Job at paying attention though.

Yea, it's Mandalore dumbass.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx

or Vrook even though he out right stated he didn't like the Exile admitted that:

"Your form is a little sloppy but you've got it."

Nice Job at reading though.

Logical deduction tells us but thats far above your intellect level.

She kinda was when she screams about how there can be no mercy when you offer to redeem her, after you beat her the first time, Nice Job at paying attention though.

And? Force Sensitive (especially one of Ulics caliber) > Non force sensitive almost any day. [/B]

Nice job of proving that the exile was somehow adept at 6 forms.. Dumbass..

Was I trying to..

This coming from someone who just got wtfpwned once again.. Lying to yourself only hurts yourself Betty.

I could point out the logical fallacy but that would be a waste of my time.

AHAHA..Idiot.

Riveting response.

Wow, your argument is done.

So wait someone of Ulics calibaer in the force is no match for a force sensitive. Way to go.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Was I trying to..

I could point out the logical fallacy but that would be a waste of my time.

So wait someone of Ulics calibaer in the force is no match for a force sensitive. Way to go. [/B]

K thanks for conceding the argument dumbass.

I don't know, but didn't Boba fend of Vader with a saber for 3 pages in a comic?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And since when is Vrook the epitome of objectivity? He berated Revan, and Vandar flat out disagree with him. Nice that you included all that though.

Vandar didn't disagree with him. He just mentions that the formation of force bonds the Exile is capable off is something special. Vrook's statement is not contradicted. So the Exile is just an average Jedi with some special abilities which won't help in actual combat.

The Exile has amnesia now? Where the hell did you get that from?

Did you even play KotoR 2 ? You do realize that the Exile has forgotten everything from her early life to the point she awakes aside of Kreia ? Yes ? That's called "amnesia".

For what its worth the KOTOR comics show the Jedi adopting children into their ranks about two decades after the Great Sith Wars.

Somehow I can remember to have written that some people did join the Jedi Order as children. My point was that we don't know in what age Revan, Kreia, the Exile and Kun did join the ranks of the Jedi (for this debate) did join the ranks of the Jedi Order. I was merely pointing out that the procedure of accepting only young children as candidates for Jedi training was introduced with the Ruusan reformation. Quite clearly the TOTJ / KotoR era Jedi Order did accept much older candidates (Nomi Sunrider, the Quel-Droma brothers etc.)

So she didn't beat him five times? Your making it sound like they sat on a couch and The Exile had a long discussion with him and told him to die.

Again you're making the misstake to hand in gameplay as canon. Again I can only tell you to use some common sense. We do know that Sion can be just defeated by convincing him to give up. So what most likely happened is that the Exile and him duelled and the Exile kept talking to him during that duel until the point he finally is convinced to give up.

It's pretty much apparent that the Exile was not able to beat Sion in a normal fight, as Kreia pretty much says that when the Exile first confronts Sion on Korriban. But suddenly she's capable of doing it ? Not to mention that it doesn't make much sense to argue with somebody if you can easily chop him into pieces with a lightsaber. Even if Sion keeps his body together with his will power and the force - I doubt he would be able to do much after having his limbs or his head removed with a lightsaber.

Already been proved wrong, the point of the final battle was a test if she was strong to go to war with Revan, In this context Kreia has no clear reason to hold back, as she was testing and what would be the point of the test if she was holding back?

Oh. You mean as Sidious was testing Anakin's strength in the duel with Dooku when he told Dooku not to kill Anakin right before ? Damn it. As it seems you don't necesseraly have to kill somebody or have to be willing to do so, to test that person's strength. And Kreia had enough reasons not to kill the Exile.

And owning a non force user in personal combat is impressive?

Owning Mandalore, who is the top fighter of a entire race of warriors in melee combat and that without actually using the force is impressive.

And Cay is now some how strong?

Kun definitly is and this seems to be the reason why you ignored my comment on him, huh ? Nice try.

I'm glad you somehow know the passage of time by looking at pictures. Not to mention Ulic is in a full run in one of the panels.

Common sense and logic are so easy to use. Why don't you do so ?
Ulic and Sylvar do obviously fight their way through Ulic place. Then they continue their fight outside up to the point where they are finally reaching that little edge. I wonder how it can not have taken minutes. Aside of that it's pretty irrelevant. Normally people who can't use the force go down against Jedi in the matter of seconds when trying to compete with them in melee combat.

Because who wields a lightsaber other then Jedi? And you didn't mention Ulic was in extreme physical shape, and was as said a very accomplished lightsaber duelist, why wouldn't he have muscle memory?

I was talking about defeating a Jedi in melee combat. You know: The force can boost up actual physical strength, speed and so on. You don't necesserily need a lightsaber to do that.

And yes. Ulic was in good physical shape and he was an accomplished lightsaber duellist. That's already more than what we can say about the Exile. 😛

Yes the Exile was an average Force user before the Mandalorian Wars but after Malachor V he gained the ability to drain the power of someone after he kills them. At the end of KotOR II the Exile becomes as strong as Revan. Just like him the Exile was strong enough to defeat many Sith troopers and Dark Jedi. How can you call a man (or a woman) who kills three Sith lords (two of which are uber-powerful) an average Jedi? You can't because he isn't average. Everything in the game states otherwise just listen to the Jedi Masters on Dantooine.

And it's obvious the Kreia wasn't holding back. Why would she? She's a Grey Jedi but she has adopted many of the teaching of the Jedi and the Sith. Have you listened to the dialog before the final confrontation? It's quite clear she wants to fight the Exile in the Sith tradition of master vs. apprentice.

"Even if Sion keeps his body together with his will power and the force - I doubt he would be able to do much after having his limbs or his head removed with a lightsaber." Neither his head nor his limbs would fall off his body because he keeps his entire body together. This has been stated by the medical officer on the Harbinger.

"Did you even play KotoR 2 ? You do realize that the Exile has forgotten everything from her early life to the point she awakes aside of Kreia ? Yes ? That's called "amnesia"." WTF?! The Exile never had amnesia he only can't remember the events that led to him being on Peragus (because he was drugged by the HK-50). Pay more attention to the dialog of the game.

"Again you're making the mistake to hand in gameplay as canon. Again I can only tell you to use some common sense. We do know that Sion can be just defeated by convincing him to give up. So what most likely happened is that the Exile and him duelled and the Exile kept talking to him during that duel until the point he finally is convinced to give up." Except that they talk every time after the Exile defeats him. Again you need to pay more attention to the game. You can't say that something happened different from the game because you don't like it.

pwned

Originally posted by the_satan32
Yes the Exile was an average Force user before the Mandalorian Wars but after Malachor V he gained the ability to drain the power of someone after he kills them.

First. The Exile is canonically female. That would be "she".
Second. How would an ability that enables the Exile to drain the power of somebody already killed in the actual fight ? Irrelevant.

At the end of KotOR II the Exile becomes as strong as Revan.

Oh. The Exile does ? Proof ?

Just like him the Exile was strong enough to defeat many Sith troopers and Dark Jedi.

Oh yes ? You mean the remains of Revan's destroyed Sith Empire ? And the Exile did so while being accompanied with a nice amount of friends. I don't know how this is impressive. And again we're talking about gameplay related stuff here. Just an example. If you do possess a stealth level high enough you can simply stealth through the entire Trayus Academy only killing two people: Sion and Kreia. Now did the Exile canonically kill the amount X of Dark Jedi and Sith troopers or did this not happen since there are other ways to solve certain situations ?

How can you call a man (or a woman) who kills three Sith lords (two of which are uber-powerful) an average Jedi? You can't because he isn't average. Everything in the game states otherwise just listen to the Jedi Masters on Dantooine.

As if "killing a Sith Lord" is anything special per definition. Padawan Kenobi managed to do that in TPM (Maul). Anakin did in RotS (Dooku). Vader did in RotJ (Sidious). There is quite a large list of people who did sucessfully deal with Sith Lords - including Ulic who did survive against Kun. The question is: How powerful and skilled with weapons were those three Sith Lords in KotoR 2 ? Compareable to Exar Kun who had more knowledge than he could ever use and was definetly a prodigy when it came to lightsaber combat ? Even above him which better should be the case if you want to make a convincing argument for the Exile ?

Again. Kun in just six months (and sorry - that's exactly the time that Revan had to study his Sith knowledge in case nobody did notice that) managed to become proficient enough in Sith Magic to use it to freeze the entire Senate. He became proficient enough in Sith Alchemy to construct his own Sith Amulet and creating some unique new beasts. Going by Nadd's comments on Sadow's knowledge and how he wanted to use it (creating a completely new body for him) and the fact that Kun did actually study that knowledge, he must have a damn huge amount of Sith Lore at hands. Then Kun totally wasted two century old Jedi Masters with apparent ease, resisted one of the most powerful - if not the most powerful - light side force attack applied against him by a Jedi who actually killed ancient Sith with it. This aside from being a lightsaber prodigy able to overcome a 600 year old Jedi Master and develop a new unique weapon with a corresponding style in just a few months.

Yet Ulic was capable of stalemating Kun in the lightsaber department and since it's rather impossible to stalemate somebody who does possess a far greater amount of force powers I think we can suggest that, at the point of their duel, Kun and Ulic were indeed equals. Where did the Exile do anything close to that ?

And it's obvious the Kreia wasn't holding back. Why would she? She's a Grey Jedi but she has adopted many of the teaching of the Jedi and the Sith. Have you listened to the dialog before the final confrontation? It's quite clear she wants to fight the Exile in the Sith tradition of master vs. apprentice.

Can you please explain to me why Kreia should want to kill the Exile ? Kreia did obviously want the Exile to go and find / aid Revan. Not possible for somebody that is dead. Kreia was proud because the development of the Exile. Did you have a look at the dialog after the confrontation ? Where Kreia (in one possible answer) actually says that she's tired on being dependent on the force and by killing her the Exile would do her a favor ? Doesn't appear to me as if Kreia did really want to win that fight by killing the Exile.

And Sith tradition ? Since when can a lightsider be part of any Sith tradition ? And since when does the master challenge the apprentice ? Normally that is the other way around exactly.

Neither his head nor his limbs would fall off his body because he keeps his entire body together. This has been stated by the medical officer on the Harbinger.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure that the medical officer on the Harbinger did try to remove some of Sion's limbs or his head to come to this conclusion. For somebody who "holds his entire body together" the guy is clearly missing to much skin (chest / face) not even talking about one of his eyes. Apparently it's pretty well possible to remove pieces of him. Anything else would be hilarious if you think about it. I mean hey...what should he do if somebody cuts his arm off ? Force pull it back to his body ? Levitate it around ?

The medical officer on the Harbinger just says that Sion's condition is actually impossible since he should be dead considering all the broken bones and other injuries. That doesn't mean the Sion won't die if somebody would actually remove his head with a nice lightsaber cut.

WTF?! The Exile never had amnesia he only can't remember the events that led to him being on Peragus (because he was drugged by the HK-50). Pay more attention to the dialog of the game.

Yeah. Let's see. Kreia has to teach the Exile the most basic force powers despite the fact that the Exile did go through some nice amount of Jedi training. The Exile doesn't seem to remember her own trial before the Jedi Council until actually finding a recording of it. And she also doesn't recognize Bao-Dur when first meeting him again. Until you think it's normal to forget everything that happened just a few years in the past, I would call that "amnesia".

Except that they talk every time after the Exile defeats him. Again you need to pay more attention to the game. You can't say that something happened different from the game because you don't like it.

What point about "gameplay" was it you didn't get ?
Unless you want to tell me that Sion is the reincarnation of the Black Knight from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" I don't see how a "cut him into pieces and after this have a nice talk with him" situation should actually work. On the same level you could also say that the Exile can take multiple lightsaber hits right in her face without sustaining any injury (rather hilarious) which is pretty much the case for every possible opponent in the KotoR games. As you might have realized almost every hit taken from a lightsaber does either cause some massive amount of damage if not killing somebody right on the spot.

Really. You need to apply some realism to the display of certain situations within the game. The Exile had to run from Sion on Kreia's order when first confronting him. Yet some days (weeks) later she should be able to totally defeat (meaning basically "kill"😉 the same guy serveral times in a row ? Suggesting that the Exile did actually duel him and during that duel finally convinced him to give up is actually more reasonable than thinking she did bring him to a point near death 250 times in a row before reaching the desired outcome.

"First. The Exile is canonically female. That would be "she""
It doesn't matter the story is the same.

"Second. How would an ability that enables the Exile to drain the power of somebody already killed in the actual fight ? Irrelevant."
Because the Exile killed alot of people on Kotor II (as some fights are unavoidable). The masters state that the reason has grown stronger is that is because he feeds on death.

"Oh. The Exile does ? Proof ?"
"You are greater than any I have ever trained"- Kreia/Traya and considering that Kreia trained Nihilus, Sion and the strongest of all Revan that's quite a statement isn't it.

"As if "killing a Sith Lord" is anything special per definition. Padawan Kenobi managed to do that in TPM (Maul). Anakin did in RotS (Dooku). Vader did in RotJ (Sidious)."
And these are average force users?

Can you please explain to me why Kreia should want to kill the Exile ? Kreia did obviously want the Exile to go and find / aid Revan. Not possible for somebody that is dead. Kreia was proud because the development of the Exile. Did you have a look at the dialog after the confrontation ? Where Kreia (in one possible answer) actually says that she's tired on being dependent on the force and by killing her the Exile would do her a favor ? Doesn't appear to me as if Kreia did really want to win that fight by killing the Exile.

"And Sith tradition ? Since when can a lightsider be part of any Sith tradition ? And since when does the master challenge the apprentice ? Normally that is the other way around exactly."
I suggest you go and play the game again. Kreia was a grey jedi not a lightsider as I said before she doesn't believe in the Jedi code but unlike the Sith doesn't believe in destruction for it's own sake. And since some of her teachings are derived from the Sith it's only natural that she faces her apprentice. If he can't defeat her than how could he be any help to Revan? To claim that Kreia was holding back and letting the Exile kill her is against her philosophy (which you would have known if payed attention to the game). When you try to help someone what does Kreia say that helping them is deny them the fight and thus weaking them and cheapening their victory. If Kreia let the Exile defeat her than she would be cheapening his victory. It's against her philosophy.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure that the medical officer on the Harbinger did try to remove some of Sion's limbs or his head to come to this conclusion. For somebody who "holds his entire body together" the guy is clearly missing to much skin (chest / face) not even talking about one of his eyes. Apparently it's pretty well possible to remove pieces of him. Anything else would be hilarious if you think about it. I mean hey...what should he do if somebody cuts his arm off ? Force pull it back to his body ? Levitate it around ?

"The medical officer on the Harbinger just says that Sion's condition is actually impossible since he should be dead considering all the broken bones and other injuries. That doesn't mean the Sion won't die if somebody would actually remove his head with a nice lightsaber cut."
She states she doesn't know what is keeps him together.

"Yeah. Let's see. Kreia has to teach the Exile the most basic force powers despite the fact that the Exile did go through some nice amount of Jedi training. The Exile doesn't seem to remember her own trial before the Jedi Council until actually finding a recording of it. And she also doesn't recognize Bao-Dur when first meeting him again. Until you think it's normal to forget everything that happened just a few years in the past, I would call that "amnesia"."
Yeah let's see Kreia has to teach the Exile about the Force becasue he is stripped from it. Yes the Exile remembers it but doesn't know what the masters said after he left. He recognises Bao-Dur and laiter in game there is a conversation about Malachor V.

What point about "gameplay" was it you didn't get ?
Unless you want to tell me that Sion is the reincarnation of the Black Knight from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" I don't see how a "cut him into pieces and after this have a nice talk with him" situation should actually work. On the same level you could also say that the Exile can take multiple lightsaber hits right in her face without sustaining any injury (rather hilarious) which is pretty much the case for every possible opponent in the KotoR games. As you might have realized almost every hit taken from a lightsaber does either cause some massive amount of damage if not killing somebody right on the spot.

"Really. You need to apply some realism to the display of certain situations within the game. The Exile had to run from Sion on Kreia's order when first confronting him. Yet some days (weeks) later she should be able to totally defeat (meaning basically "kill"😉 the same guy serveral times in a row ? Suggesting that the Exile did actually duel him and during that duel finally convinced him to give up is actually more reasonable than thinking she did bring him to a point near death 250 times in a row before reaching the desired outcome."
Or maybe Sion is impressed that the Exile keeps going and that Sion keeps losing. After every loss Sion becomes less and less sure of him self that's the point of the battle.

Rofl, pwned

Originally posted by the_satan32
It doesn't matter the story is the same.

No. It's not. For example Brianna only joins the Exile if the Exile is a male character (which wasn't the case - the Exile is female) aside from the fact that some people develop some feelings for her. Including Sion: "I hate you because you crawl within my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken. I hate you because you are beautiful to me. And in that weakness lies death." (Sion to the Exile)

Because the Exile killed alot of people on Kotor II (as some fights are unavoidable). The masters state that the reason has grown stronger is that is because he feeds on death.

As a matter of fact: No.
"You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them." (Vrook about the Exile) The Exile just feads of the force powers / life force of people close to her means she has to form some bonds to them before being capable of doing so. That surely doesn't apply on her opponents in the game. In fact the only people the Exile "drains" are the Jedi Master if you chose to play the game as Dark Jedi. Unfortunatelly, this isn't canon.

"You are greater than any I have ever trained"- Kreia/Traya and considering that Kreia trained Nihilus, Sion and the strongest of all Revan that's quite a statement isn't it.

Third party commenting somebodies powers. Fallible source. Aside of the fact that Kreia gives that statement when being up to send the Exile to a mission to the Unknown Regions where the Exile does possibly have to deal with the Ancient Sith. That's more cheering the Exile up than anything else.

And these are average force users?

Wrong question. The right question would be if those are "average Jedi". Padawan Kenobi definetly is pretty average, yes. At least compared to the "outstanding" people of his era (Yoda, Mace, Anakin). And as you might have noticed Ulic is surely no average Jedi.

I suggest you go and play the game again. Kreia was a grey jedi not a lightsider as I said before she doesn't believe in the Jedi code but unlike the Sith doesn't believe in destruction for it's own sake. And since some of her teachings are derived from the Sith it's only natural that she faces her apprentice. If he can't defeat her than how could he be any help to Revan? To claim that Kreia was holding back and letting the Exile kill her is against her philosophy (which you would have known if payed attention to the game). When you try to help someone what does Kreia say that helping them is deny them the fight and thus weaking them and cheapening their victory. If Kreia let the Exile defeat her than she would be cheapening his victory. It's against her philosophy.

With "lightsider" I meant the Exile. And it's still not usual for a master to challenge his apprentice.

And please. The philosophy of a Grey Jedi technically is that the end does justify the means. Now ask yourself what was Kreia's goal ? She wanted the death of the the force - only being capable of bringing that: The Exile. She wanted somebody to aid Revan in his quest in the Unknown Regions. Only person who can do it: The Exile.
Now how would a dead Exile be of any help for Kreia / Revan ? I'm pretty sure that Kreia did give the Exile a nice fight. Holding back (meaning: Not to kill somebody in a fight) doesn't mean you're "helping" them. You just don't use "last resort" actions as instakills. That is something Luke Skywalker almost always does when confronting Dark Siders. Kreia would be pretty stupid to try and kill the Exile since the Exile is her only hope to fulfill his "higher goals".

She states she doesn't know what is keeps him together.

Woah. And where is the proof that limbs will keep attached to his body when somebody actually cuts them off with a lightsaber ? Yeah. Thanks. It doesn't exist.

Or maybe Sion is impressed that the Exile keeps going and that Sion keeps losing. After every loss Sion becomes less and less sure of him self that's the point of the battle.

No. The point of the battle is that the Exile does utilize persuation to turn Sion against his own beliefs. In fact she tells him pretty much that Kreia doesn't have any use for him any longer and that he can leave his pain and hatred behind by giving up the force. Hence his final words: "I am glad to finally have peace... at last."

And that aside I still don't see a convincing argument for the Exile being able to defeat Ulic.

"No. It's not. For example Brianna only joins the Exile if the Exile is a male character (which wasn't the case - the Exile is female) aside from the fact that some people develop some feelings for her. Including Sion: "I hate you because you crawl within my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken. I hate you because you are beautiful to me. And in that weakness lies death." (Sion to the Exile)"

It doesn't change the story. If the Exile is female will Sion stop fighting the Exile? No he won't. If Disciple joins the party instead of the hand maiden will he run to help in the fight against Darth Nihilus? Again no.

"As a matter of fact: No.
"You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them." (Vrook about the Exile) The Exile just feads of the force powers / life force of people close to her means she has to form some bonds to them before being capable of doing so. That surely doesn't apply on her opponents in the game. In fact the only people the Exile "drains" are the Jedi Master if you chose to play the game as Dark Jedi. Unfortunately, this isn't canon."

Wrong. Zez-Kai Ell stays (on Dantooine) "You must have noticed as you fought on all these different planets killing hungreds only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that is ?" Wookieepedia confirms this: "She was able to gain greater power through all the deaths she caused, which, as the Jedi Council believed, was a result of her being a "wound" in the Force." You may not trust Wookiepedia but you cannot deny what is stated in the game itself.

"Third party commenting somebodies powers. Fallible source. Aside of the fact that Kreia gives that statement when being up to send the Exile to a mission to the Unknown Regions where the Exile does possibly have to deal with the Ancient Sith. That's more cheering the Exile up than anything else. "

Third party? Yes but this third party has been a master of Nihilus, Sion, Revan and the Exile so she knows what she's talking about.

"And please. The philosophy of a Grey Jedi technically is that the end does justify the means. Now ask yourself what was Kreia's goal ? She wanted the death of the the force - only being capable of bringing that: The Exile. She wanted somebody to aid Revan in his quest in the Unknown Regions. Only person who can do it: The Exile.
Now how would a dead Exile be of any help for Kreia / Revan ? I'm pretty sure that Kreia did give the Exile a nice fight. Holding back (meaning: Not to kill somebody in a fight) doesn't mean you're "helping" them. You just don't use "last resort" actions as instakills. That is something Luke Skywalker almost always does when confronting Dark Siders. Kreia would be pretty stupid to try and kill the Exile since the Exile is her only hope to fulfill his "higher goals"."

What I meant with "Grey Jedi" is that she doesn't belong to either the Jedi or the Sith and neither to the Light or Dark sides. You are again ignoring that Kreia has her own philosophy. Why would she even bother with Exile if she is powerful enough that can fight him without using all her power (holding back)? She can just go and help Revan herself. It's obvious that Kreia wants the Exile to fight her and she makes it quite clear that if the Exile doesn't kill her she will kill him (don't ignore something that has been stated in the game). But it is pointless to tell you this since Kreia wouldn't give him the win without him earning it. Why? because for Kreia everyone has to earn their victories that's why when you do something kind (like giving money or saving someone) she berates you for it and in most cases you lose influence with her. If you go around killing people for no reason you will again lose influence because destruction for it own sake is also against her philosophy. I have stated before that to her it would be like she cheapened his victory and made his struggle pointless.

"Woah. And where is the proof that limbs will keep attached to his body when somebody actually cuts them off with a lightsaber ? Yeah. Thanks. It doesn't exist."

Have you seen Sion? His entire body is in cuts and after the examination of the medical officer she states that there are deep fractures in his bones and that she doesn't know what is keeping him together.

Play the game again and pay attention.

*Digs out the old KOTOR quote save file.*

Vandar didn't disagree with him. He just mentions that the formation of force bonds the Exile is capable off is something special. Vrook's statement is not contradicted. So the Exile is just an average Jedi with some special abilities which won't help in actual combat.

Exact quote:

Vrook: Today I caught her in a heated argument with my Padawan! Her Master refuses to properly discipline... (static) ...I want to know what action you intend!
Vandar: Vrook, I respect your wisdom, but it is not your concern.
Vrook: But... (static) uncontrolled! (static)... whatever the other Padawans see her do, they are quick to do the same... (static) other students dislike her intensely!
Vandar: True, an average student of the Force... (static) but with a unique strength... (static) is a natural leader...
Vrook: I strongly disagree... (static) mediocre Jedi... (static) lust for power! (static) ...will lead to the dark side! Furthermore it... (static, cuts off)

Actually the exact quote was mediocre Jedi from Vrook, but thats besides the point. Lets look at the time of when the quote was made, since we don't know and for the sake of argument I'll assume its right before the Mando Wars started, or at least the first Jedi involvement it was 3963 BBY, The Exile makes her return to known space in 3951, your seriously forming an opinion on a character who under goes multiple power ups using a 12 year old quote.

Even though as the quote places the Exile as a padawan at the time meaning its likely far before the date I gave but as I said "for the sake of argument."

Moreover, look at the person who said it...Vrook, a person to be blunt is an *******, he admitted he has an open dislike for the Exile. And again, she's a padawan.

Your clearly using an out of date sample.

Did you even play KotoR 2 ? You do realize that the Exile has forgotten everything from her early life to the point she awakes aside of Kreia ? Yes ? That's called "amnesia".

Um, what game where you playing? The Exile clearly remembers events about her past she just refuses to talk about them, at first. After leaving Peragus II she goes into detail about her lightsaber color(which she hand't used or seen for about 9 years) to Atton on the Ebon Hawk, then following that she has a conversation with Kreia about The Republic and its current state, The Mandalorian Wars, hints of Malachor and a bit about Revan.

Her not knowing basic force abilities is because of her prolonged absence from even a presence in the force, its understandable that she'd have to re learn it from start.

Her not remembering Bao Dur is understandable also, considering she probably tried to block out as much of she could of such a traumatic experience.

This is the only quote I have on the matter (her lightsaber color)

"Wait, you didn't go red, did you? Great. After we're all dead, you and that Sith can have a party." - Atton

So, before you try to be a little smart ass at least get your facts straight. And thats not an insult, just advice.

Again you're making the misstake to hand in gameplay as canon. Again I can only tell you to use some common sense. We do know that Sion can be just defeated by convincing him to give up. So what most likely happened is that the Exile and him duelled and the Exile kept talking to him during that duel until the point he finally is convinced to give up.

Ok so wait, even though we see cut scenes in between Sions death where dialog is allowed to transpire, I'm supposed to believe that that didn't take place? Simply because you don't think it makes sense? What we can logically conclude is what we saw, the Exile "killed" him he rose again started talking shit and they fought again, rinse wash repeat four more times and there we have our duel.

It's pretty much apparent that the Exile was not able to beat Sion in a normal fight, as Kreia pretty much says that when the Exile first confronts Sion on Korriban. But suddenly she's capable of doing it ?

Obviously you missed the part where on Dantooine when you confront the masters the Exile makes it a point to say (These are the two dialog options, the third is a DS one that only talks about killing the masters)

1. "But...I'm much more powerful now!"

2. "I'm much stronger then I've ever been!"

The masters respond with:

Vrook: "So you think! That is not the power of a Jedi you wield!"

Zez-kai Ell: He's right. Its… all the death you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor… it's in you, it's what you are now. You must have noticed as you've fought across all these planets, killing hundreds — only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that was?

Then they go on to explain its all the death that the Exile has caused to get to that point about how she forms mass bonds quickly, dominates them and when she kills her foe she syphons their power into hers:

Vrook: Yes… you can feel the Force, but you cannot feel yourself. You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them. It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force sensitives. They are symptomatic of the wound in the Force. You are a breach that must be closed.

Thats the explanation as to why she can suddenly go from running from Sion to beating him multiple times at Malachor of all places.

Oh. You mean as Sidious was testing Anakin's strength in the duel with Dooku when he told Dooku not to kill Anakin right before ? Damn it.

And Sidious being the master manipulator that he was figured Dooku would stop holding back once he realized that Anakin was about to kill him, as he does. Wasn't the entire point of that test with Anakin to see if he was strong enough to become his new apprentice? And what would be the point of that he he couldn't accurately see his full abilities against a foe who was toying with him? What would be the point of the test if Dooku was holding back?

As it seems you don't necesseraly have to kill somebody or have to be willing to do so, to test that person's strength. And Kreia had enough reasons not to kill the Exile.

Then why didn't she simply lay down her lightsaber and give in when the Exile beats her the first time? If she wasn't willingly to kill the Exile then what was the point of the test? Kreia had until that point spent almost every waking minute of the day with the Exile so its safe to say she had a pretty accurate gauge of her strength. So Kreia really didn't have to fight her, and if she wanted the Exile to get away scott free with all her little conflicts resolved so she could run off and fight the Sith, she could have just let the Exile detonate the remnant MSG and be done with it. But as it turns out she was directly opposed to that.

In the final battle with Kreia, after you offer to redeem her, she denys this and says that their can only be one victor and that it can only end in death, and she threatens that if the Exile cannot win she would break her like she did Sion. After you beat her the first time and refuse to fight her she breaks of into a frenzy calling up her lightsabers to kill the Exile. Now I ask you: why is someone who is holding back going to such desperate measures to kill?

Oh and to further prove my point on the Exiles skill, she does indeed beat Kreia in a lightsaber duel, as she hacks off Kreia's other hand, after the first defeat, you can clearly see her nursing her new found wound, thats the whole reason as to why she calls up the Telekinetic controlled sabers, then if you try to engage her in combat you clearly see two stumps and no fists, also its in the developers notes.

Just an added note as to why this victory is so impressive, because of how damn powerful Kreia was, not only with her draining ability, her Telekinetic lightsaber control which she used to such an aptitude that they could behave independent of each other, not only cloaking her self in the force to such a degree that she could literally stand infront of force users and they wouldn't see her, but she had abilities that are only mimicked by Cade Skywalker in Legacy, that is the ability to bring someone back who is on the brink of death, she does this to Tobin:

"Though it has been some time since I exercised my healing powers, there is a shred of life within you still."
¯Kreia to Colonel Tobin

As said the only other time this is done (To my knowledge is by Cade) in which Luke himself admits he couldn't even do:

You have a talent to heal others unlike any I've ever known - Luke to Cade.

Owning Mandalore, who is the top fighter of a entire race of warriors in melee combat and that without actually using the force is impressive.

How do we know he didn't use the force passively to enhance his, physical strength, speed and agility to levels Mandalor couldn't match. As a matter of fact isn't that what he did when he cleaved through Mandalores weapon?

Kun definitly is and this seems to be the reason why you ignored my comment on him, huh ? Nice try.

Hence why I ignored it, I've never disputed Kun's power, but the majority of those feats you went on about in your other post happened to Kun AFTER his duel with Ulic when he had reached his status as "Most powerful being of the age." and at that point had they duel Kun would have tooled him.

But still why the hell did you list Cay? He sucks.

Common sense and logic are so easy to use. Why don't you do so ?
Ulic and Sylvar do obviously fight their way through Ulic place. Then they continue their fight outside up to the point where they are finally reaching that little edge. I wonder how it can not have taken minutes. Aside of that it's pretty irrelevant. Normally people who can't use the force go down against Jedi in the matter of seconds when trying to compete with them in melee combat.

Because after there initial lightsaber clash which I surmise took a few seconds in the very next panel Ulic is in a full sprint down the corridor. Thus why I said it was him running away and "fending off" would be a rather, wrong term to use. As it was likely Ulic running and parrying the blows that he could using his physical strength and remnant skill so he DOESN'T get owned in seconds.

I was talking about defeating a Jedi in melee combat. You know: The force can boost up actual physical strength, speed and so on. You don't necesserily need a lightsaber to do that.

If thats the case Jango Fett, kills multiple Jedi at the same time with his bar hands. Go figure.

And yes. Ulic was in good physical shape and he was an accomplished lightsaber duellist. That's already more than what we can say about the Exile. 😛

I'll admit he has physical strength over the Exile, in Redemption the dudes a damn brute.

And can we save the insults and useless sarcasm, I don't want to have anther pointless flame war, with kids who have ego problems.

An interesting note, while I was digging through my file of KOTOR quotes I found this:

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught ... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."
¯Kreia

Its about Nihlius, and his drain, and it blows a hole (I think) in the whole "The power is nothing special and can be learned" argument.

As for the whole "How long may have Kreia been a jedi." it can be assumed it was a while based on this:

"Because Atris' path is one I walked long ago, and it is a chapter of my life that has been read and closed. She has taken the first steps, I think -we shall see. Surely you felt the righteous anger, the spoken judgments, the lack of forgiveness. I was a historian once, gathering the relics of the Jedi, learning the ancient mysteries. Always, there were more questions." - Kreia

Kreia brings back Hanharr from death as well, after Mira has killed him. At least he was near death.

Originally posted by the_satan32
It doesn't change the story. If the Exile is female will Sion stop fighting the Exile? No he won't. If Disciple joins the party instead of the hand maiden will he run to help in the fight against Darth Nihilus? Again no.

Sion does himself say his attraction to the Exile is a weakness and he senses (his own) death in said weakness. I wonder how this doesn't matter. And for Nihilus: Having Mandalore and Visas helping out in that fight is already enough, don't you think so ?

Wrong. Zez-Kai Ell stays (on Dantooine) "You must have noticed as you fought on all these different planets killing hungreds only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that is ?" Wookieepedia confirms this: "She was able to gain greater power through all the deaths she caused, which, as the Jedi Council believed, was a result of her being a "wound" in the Force." You may not trust Wookiepedia but you cannot deny what is stated in the game itself.

Again. It's the killing of that person which might give her a temporary power boost but how exactly should that make her stronger ? If anything she could have received some very minor boosts in terms of force energy (which minor I mean that even the game doesn't realize them in the form of additional force energy everytime you slay an opponent).

That being said the only "viable" sources for power would be other fully trained Jedi and the Sith Lords. As the Exile canonically didn't slay the Jedi Masters, didn't "slay" Sion and wasn't able to receive power from Nihilus (seen when Nihilus tries to train her and is weakened) - the only viable source for power would be Kreia herself. So I wonder where this "gift" is of any matter in a match of Ulic VS the Exile, especially when Ulic did already start with being an exceptional student of the force when the Exile started as "average Jedi".

Third party? Yes but this third party has been a master of Nihilus, Sion, Revan and the Exile so she knows what she's talking about.

It's nice how you simply ignored what I've actually written. Kreia does admit in the end that she did love the Exile and yet she still wanted the Exile to join Revan. As I said: This statement was most likely done to cheer the Exile up. Aside of that: How would Kreia know the full extend of Revan's power ? She did recognize him as a Sith Lord and wasn't really close to him for all we know during that time. Yet Malak in the end of KotoR does say that Revan had become more powerful than he was ever before.

What I meant with "Grey Jedi" is that she doesn't belong to either the Jedi or the Sith and neither to the Light or Dark sides. You are again ignoring that Kreia has her own philosophy. Why would she even bother with Exile if she is powerful enough that can fight him without using all her power (holding back)? She can just go and help Revan herself.

No. She can not go and help Revan herself because she's so easily affected through the Dark Side. She doesn't even dare to leave the ship when the group visits Korriban because of that. How should she stay "tuned" in a place filled with Ancient Sith ? She wanted to die. That's why she's bothering with the Exile.

It's obvious that Kreia wants the Exile to fight her and she makes it quite clear that if the Exile doesn't kill her she will kill him (don't ignore something that has been stated in the game). But it is pointless to tell you this since Kreia wouldn't give him the win without him earning it. Why? because for Kreia everyone has to earn their victories that's why when you do something kind (like giving money or saving someone) she berates you for it and in most cases you lose influence with her. If you go around killing people for no reason you will again lose influence because destruction for it own sake is also against her philosophy. I have stated before that to her it would be like she cheapened his victory and made his struggle pointless.

How would the victory be pointless if Kreia wasn't willing to give the Exile all she could ? The Exile did practically earn everything at the same moment she managed to defeat Nihilus, which Kreia herself wasn't capable of. It's not as if I said that Kreia simply stood there and did let the Exile kill her easily. Obviously that wasn't the case. Yet how should Kreia be able to actually kill a person who she loved, as she did admit herself after the fight ? For the sake of her philosophy which in this circumstances would have let her a) kill a beloved being that was b) her only hope for archieving the goals she had ? That's illogical.

Have you seen Sion? His entire body is in cuts and after the examination of the medical officer she states that there are deep fractures in his bones and that she doesn't know what is keeping him together.

Oh my. Did you ever suffer from a broken bone ? If you break your arm: Does it fall off instantly ? Obviously not. If your skin is burned, does that mean your body falls apart ? I don't think so. Sion kept the overall structure of his body intact using his willpower. Yet he still haven't answer how he would be able to keep limbs or his head attached to his body if somebody cuts them off. And he doesn't have any wounds on his body that would result in his body parts falling off if he stopped with that influence. Or did he fall into pieces after finally being defeated by the Exile ? He just drops dead on the ground. Using your logic he should have ended up in different corners of the room after the Exile sliced him into pieces multiple times.

Play the game again and pay attention.

Learn how to use some logic and common sense. Or at least how to use the quote function on this board.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Vrook: Today I caught her in a heated argument with my Padawan! Her Master refuses to properly discipline... (static) ...I want to know what action you intend!
Vandar: Vrook, I respect your wisdom, but it is not your concern.
Vrook: But... (static) uncontrolled! (static)... whatever the other Padawans see her do, they are quick to do the same... (static) other students dislike her intensely!
Vandar: True, an average student of the Force... (static) but with a unique strength... (static) is a natural leader...
Vrook: I strongly disagree... (static) mediocre Jedi... (static) lust for power! (static) ...will lead to the dark side! Furthermore it... (static, cuts off)

Actually the exact quote was mediocre Jedi from Vrook, but thats besides the point. Lets look at the time of when the quote was made, since we don't know and for the sake of argument I'll assume its right before the Mando Wars started, or at least the first Jedi involvement it was 3963 BBY, The Exile makes her return to known space in 3951, your seriously forming an opinion on a character who under goes multiple power ups using a 12 year old quote.

Oh my. Vrook calls the Exile a mediocre Jedi. Vandar goes and calls her average (overall) but equipped with a unique ability (force bonds). This is effectively all that matters. Ulic was descriped as an outstanding combatant even before he started his Jedi training and when he did, he was again recognized as being outstanding among the other Jedi students of that time. The point is where both of them start off.

The Exile starts as average Jedi with a special ability that doesn't have any effects on actual combat. Ulic starts as a prodigeous student in the Jedi ways. They did both went to some adventures, fighting, wars and so on but the point is that Ulic had the better starting position and actually far better possibilities to develop compared to the Exile.

The facts always remain the same. The Exile was nothing special before he disappearance. And after she returned to the Galaxy she just became special because her force connection did come back. Yet what did she do that was so great that it puts her above Ulic ? She was not capable of defeating Nihilus on her own. She was not capable of defeating Sion in normal combat (in fact Kreia tells her to run when first confronting him). Yet all people she confronts were obviously not on par with somebody like Revan in terms of power and combat skills who in turn is weaker than Exar Kun in his prime. So how is she going to defeat the guy who was the only being capable of stalemating Exar Kun ?

Ok so wait, even though we see cut scenes in between Sions death where dialog is allowed to transpire, I'm supposed to believe that that didn't take place? Simply because you don't think it makes sense? What we can logically conclude is what we saw, the Exile "killed" him he rose again started talking shit and they fought again, rinse wash repeat four more times and there we have our duel.

Oh my. While KotoR is a nice game it's still rather limited in actually showing things like they happened. You can't expect 100 % realism from a game. Now does it really make sense to you that somebody has to be cut down and then comes up with some talking, just to be cut down again - this being repeated five times ? Of course I saw him being cut down. The point is that (imaging this like a scene from a SW movie) it would make more sense that they were talking either while fighting or after the Exile did land an successful attack on Sion. Something like Luke and Vader in ESB. You actually don't pause a fight completely just to exchange two lines of dialog and then continue the fight as if nothing has happened.

Obviously you missed the part where on Dantooine when you confront the masters the Exile makes it a point to say (These are the two dialog options, the third is a DS one that only talks about killing the masters)

1. "But...I'm much more powerful now!"

2. "I'm much stronger then I've ever been!"

The masters respond with:

Vrook: "So you think! That is not the power of a Jedi you wield!"

Zez-kai Ell: He's right. Its… all the death you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor… it's in you, it's what you are now. You must have noticed as you've fought across all these planets, killing hundreds — only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that was?

See my last post. That won't explain a massive gain in power as she didn't destroy powerful opponents (force wise) during her journey throughout the Galaxy. Simply have a look at Nihilus. He zapped a planet filled with force users empty and still is defeatable when he should actually have turned into some godlike being untouchable by anybody since he had the power of thousand of Jedi and millions of Miraluka. Yet obviously that isn't the case. Kreia even says that "There is no strength" in Nihilus ever growing hunger.

And Sidious being the master manipulator that he was figured Dooku would stop holding back once he realized that Anakin was about to kill him, as he does. Wasn't the entire point of that test with Anakin to see if he was strong enough to become his new apprentice? And what would be the point of that he he couldn't accurately see his full abilities against a foe who was toying with him? What would be the point of the test if Dooku was holding back?

The point of the test would be if Anakin is actually emotioally enough to really strike Dooku down. The same thing is done with Luke in RotJ but he, unlike his father, refuses to do so...hence he's useless for the Emperor and Sidious decides to kill him. He obviously knew before the fight that Luke is stronger than Vader as he knew before the fight that Anakin is capable of defeating Dooku. He knew their powers better than anybody else.

cont...