Jedi Exile vs Ulic Qel Droma

The Exile has done enough to be considered above average. He/she defeated three Sith Lords, waves of dark jedi and sith troopers (don't say gameplay mechanics because some battles can't be avoided thus the Exile is over the enemies he/she fights because if he/she couldn't win then we wouldn't be able to finish the game). He/she also defeats a Jedi counsel member (Atris) and three other counsel members (if DS).

There are enough people that say that the Exile is a powerful warrior. The vision of Malak says that the Exile's masters speak well of him/her in battle. Mandalore says that not even their greatest warriors are a match for him/her.

Simply by observing another in action, the Exile could instantly learn techniques and battle stances that would take a Jedi Master years to perfect (as seen during the sparing/fight scenes with the Jedi masters).

He/she was able to gain greater power through all the deaths he/she caused which was a result of him/her being a wound in the Force. You say this effect is temporary but in-game dialog contradicts this. Sion admits during his duel with the Exile (on Malachor) that he/she is strong and that Kreia was right about him. When you speak with masters on Dantooine and they say you are a wound in the Force the Exile replies "I am stronger than ever before" ( or "More lies! My power is proof that you are wrong"😉. The Jedi do not argue and respond by explaining that her/his power comes from the deaths of all those she/he has killed. More evidence that the effect is permanent is that if your character is dark sided and you hunt down the masters and kill them the Exile drains them she/he gets additional Force points. These Force points don't disappear after some time passes (because that should happen if it was temporary).

You make a mistake when you compare the Exile's power to that of Nihilus. Nihilus weakens when he doesn't "feed" (and would eventually die) but the Exile doesn't. Nihilus drains his targets which kills them but the Exile cannot drain them unless he/she kills her target first.

Originally posted by Allankles
That's where you're wrong, Nihilus was more powerful than Kun, he's uber.

I can't beleive you're making a case for Ulic based on stale mating a relatively green Jedi turned Sith, who at that point probably hadn't reached his peak (peak being he's power level at the end of his life).

Face it, there are Sith who's powers and knowledge have surpassed Kun, namely Nihilus (in power) and Traya (in knoweldge). I don't need an omniscient narrator to tell me that Kun had more knowledge than he knew what do with (in 6 months time)..., no shit. I mean he was encountering Sith knowledge that had taken Sadow almost a life time to learn.

Knowldege: Traya > Kun

Power: Nihilus > Kun
Let's not forget Sion who'd achieved nigh immortality in his physical body. Let's not forget that the Exile didn't just stale mate these Sith, he beat every one of them.

The Exile over Ulic. [/B]

Originally posted by Allankles
You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

This destroys your completely illogical argument. The Ravager needed seals to keep the internal atmosphere normal yet somehow, it functioned without them, clealry Nihilus' influence. And as far as the hangar is concerned, it's filled with force fields not energy shields.

That whole rant on the structural intergrity of the Ravager was amusing. Have you forgotten hyperspace? A ship that beaten up has no place in hyperspace, where ships supposedly bypass dimentions (and you don't want what's outside the ship to get inside which would be disastrous), yet the Ravager was quite clearly capable of traveling through hyperspace.

Why use the word luck? There's no real luck in fiction and the Jedi Exile is far from being an average Jedi. Your argument is weak because, "Average Jedi" in the context of Kotor 2 is very much meaningless. Maybe if the Exile had had average achievements, but that didn't happen in Kotor 2.

Being able to learn techniques very quickly from observation, unpredictability, great strength in the force, enigmatic force connection, and like Ulic, skilled in battle (according to Malak and some of the Exile's masters).

That's beside the point, Nihilus "choked" Visas with the force, for all we know the technique may not be as "basic" as you assume. For instance, when Vader choked the officer while situated in an entirely different part of the ship. Now, it might be assumed that choke is just an aggressive form of TK, but for Vader to create a connection through the force, along the many corridors and contours of a large star destroyer seems pretty complex. This was an irrelevant argument anyway.

Not at all, Kreia was an unconventional Jedi, she studied both the dark side and the light with equal vigor, Odan and Vodo were very much Jedi in the conventional mode, so no they were not as powerful in the force as Kreia.

The Exile's accomplishments easily trample over Ulic's, so don't even bother going there. [/B]

Originally posted by the_satan32
The Exile has done enough to be considered above average. He/she defeated three Sith Lords, waves of dark jedi and sith troopers (don't say gameplay mechanics because some battles can't be avoided thus the Exile is over the enemies he/she fights because if he/she couldn't win then we wouldn't be able to finish the game). He/she also defeats a Jedi counsel member (Atris) and three other counsel members (if DS).

There are enough people that say that the Exile is a powerful warrior. The vision of Malak says that the Exile's masters speak well of him/her in battle. Mandalore says that not even their greatest warriors are a match for him/her.

Simply by observing another in action, the Exile could instantly learn techniques and battle stances that would take a Jedi Master years to perfect (as seen during the sparing/fight scenes with the Jedi masters).

He/she was able to gain greater power through all the deaths he/she caused which was a result of him/her being a wound in the Force. You say this effect is temporary but in-game dialog contradicts this. Sion admits during his duel with the Exile (on Malachor) that he/she is strong and that Kreia was right about him. When you speak with masters on Dantooine and they say you are a wound in the Force the Exile replies "I am stronger than ever before" ( or "More lies! My power is proof that you are wrong"😉. The Jedi do not argue and respond by explaining that her/his power comes from the deaths of all those she/he has killed. More evidence that the effect is permanent is that if your character is dark sided and you hunt down the masters and kill them the Exile drains them she/he gets additional Force points. These Force points don't disappear after some time passes (because that should happen if it was temporary).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Jesus christ, the 3 morons arguing the same thing cannot differentiate between gameplay mechanics and canon. The exile did NOT defeat 3 sith lords because she had her companions so the fights are unknown. Not to mention whatever happens with the dark side is absolutely non canon so it shouldn't even be in this debate.

What the hell are you babbling about?

Gameplay mechanic dumbass. As Nai said if you play a Jedu Counselor, you don't learn half of these techniques. That point of AC was already destroyed.

I'm starting to think that AC, satan, and Allankles are all the same people because they make all the same dumbass arguments with no common sense.

Hm... gameplay mechanics and canon where is it stated that the Exile had help when he/she fought Sion and Traya? Nowhere because she/he was alone in the Trayus Academy. The only time the Exile had companions is when he/she faced Nihilus. Nowhere in the game is it stated that the Exile is average (apart from the hologram with Vrook and Vandar which is over 10 years old and does not describe the Exile in his/her present form). Quite the opposite the masters make it quite clear that the Exile grows stronger after he/she kills someone. And like I said many fights are unavoidable thus the Exile is stronger than he/she was before the Mandalorian Wars.

The vision of Malak (in the tomb on Korriban) states that the Exile's masters speak well of his/her abilities in battle. Mandalore (Canderous) says that not even the greatest mandalorian warriors are a match for him/her. Kreia says that the Exile is greater than any she has ever trained. And yes she would know Revan's power as she says she was his first and last master. Saying she doesn't know his power and skill is like saying that Obi-Wan didn't know Anakin's power and skill.

Yes if you play a "Jedu Counselor" you don't learn some of the lightsaber forms instead you learn force forms with the same speed. The masters state in in-game dialog that the Exile learns with incredible speed (unless G. Lucas comes and says otherwise it's hard to get more canon than that). They teach him/her different forms because it would better suit him/her. Why would they teach someone who focuses more on the Force instead of a lightsaber lighrsaber forms ? And regardless the Jedi Exile knew many lightsaber and force forms and since Jedi usually know one or two that means something. The only Jedi that I can think of who knows so many forms is Yoda (forms I-VI).

Right so you can't answer the last one? Just admit that you are wrong or that you can't answer because making stupid and obviously wrong statements doesn't make you a good debater. And insults just make you seem desperate.

Originally posted by the_satan32
Hm... gameplay mechanics and canon where is it stated that the Exile had help when he/she fought Sion and Traya? Nowhere because she/he was alone in the Trayus Academy. The only time the Exile had companions is when he/she faced Nihilus. Nowhere in the game is it stated that the Exile is average (apart from the hologram with Vrook and Vandar which is over 10 years old and does not describe the Exile in his/her present form). Quite the opposite the masters make it quite clear that the Exile grows stronger after he/she kills someone. And like I said many fights are unavoidable thus the Exile is stronger than he/she was before the Mandalorian Wars.

The vision of Malak (in the tomb on Korriban) states that the Exile's masters speak well of his/her abilities in battle. Mandalore (Canderous) says that not even the greatest mandalorian warriors are a match for him/her. Kreia says that the Exile is greater than any she has ever trained. And yes she would know Revan's power as she says she was his first and last master. Saying she doesn't know his power and skill is like saying that Obi-Wan didn't know Anakin's power and skill.

Yes if you play a "Jedu Counselor" you don't learn some of the lightsaber forms instead you learn force forms with the same speed. The masters state in in-game dialog that the Exile learns with incredible speed (unless G. Lucas comes and says otherwise it's hard to get more canon than that). They teach him/her different forms because it would better suit him/her. Why would they teach someone who focuses more on the Force instead of a lightsaber lighrsaber forms ? And regardless the Jedi Exile knew many lightsaber and force forms and since Jedi usually know one or two that means something. The only Jedi that I can think of who knows so many forms is Yoda (forms I-VI).

Right so you can't answer the last one? Just admit that you are wrong or that you can't answer because making stupid and obviously wrong statements doesn't make you a good debater. And insults just make you seem desperate. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You said the exile defeated 3 sith lords, which was the basis of your argument. She defeated Sion by breaking his will, and she defeated Traya who never truly wanted to kill her. Explain to me how this makes her uber powerful or even comparable to Ulic? Better yet stop posting, your argument is getting more and more ridiculous. Nobody is arguing that the exile has some abilities but there is, and I will repeat this since you haven't made a real argument yet, absolutely NOTHING that suggests she can best Ulic in a force battle, or a saber duel.

I don't remember Canderous saying anything like that. I remember Canderous saying Revan was the best tactician he's ever met. Kreia also said Revan was the heart of the force, and considering Kreia loved the exile because of what she represented, the opinion is a little biased, unless you want to start preaching the Exile's dominance over Revan.

Uh, once again, its a gameplay mechanic that allows her to learn all the forms within minutes. Unless you want to start arguing that she learned all forms quicker than Yoda or anyone else could. Lets try this again, canonically the Exile did NOT know 6 forms.

Why would I admit you're wrong when your first post was utterly destroyed and you've been posting crap ever since? Once again, the poor debater goes into denial when his argument gets torn apart. I suggest you stop posting.

Kriea NEVER let the Exile win. There is no proof in the game that would confirm this. Why would she summon the floating sabers if the Exile has already defeated her (if you remember he/she cut off her other hand). And as I have said it's against what she believes. But there is no point in discussing this since like I said there is no proof that this is true.

Mandalore does say this if you have influence with him.

Yes she/he does. Unless you have any proof that states otherwise than yes the Exile can learn the forms faster than Yoda. Your opinion does not override what happens in the game. Show me a canon source that states the Exile did not know 6 forms.

I'm a poor debater?! Am I the one who ignores post and just calls them bullshit without explaining why they are wrong. Am I the one who keeps insulting people because I can't win an argument? No that's you.

Originally posted by the_satan32
Kriea NEVER let the Exile win. There is no proof in the game that would confirm this. Why would she summon the floating sabers if the Exile has already defeated her (if you remember he/she cut off her other hand). And as I have said it's against what she believes. But there is no point in discussing this since like I said there is no proof that this is true.

Mandalore does say this if you have influence with him.

Yes she/he does. Unless you have any proof that states otherwise than yes the Exile can learn the forms faster than Yoda. Your opinion does not override what happens in the game. Show me a canon source that states the Exile did not know 6 forms.

I'm a poor debater?! Am I the one who ignores post and just calls them bullshit without explaining why they are wrong. Am I the one who keeps insulting people because I can't win an argument? No that's you. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Can you learn how to use the quote feature before you waste my time? I never said she LET the exile win, I said she never truly wanted to kill the exile, so she wasn't going all out.

And thank you for proving my point about gameplay mechanics. I rest my case.

Stop saying he/she. I realize you have trouble differentiating between canon and gameplay mechanics, but we refer to characters in their canonical gender. I don't need proof, especially when you make a claim that the exile learns faster than Yoda due to gameplay mechanics. I don't need to show you a source that the exile did not learn 6 forms. Apparently you have no concept of the rules of debate, seeing as you need to show a canon source stating the exile DOES know 6 forms, and the gameplay mechanics don't count, no matter what you want to believe.

Yes, you're a poor debater who asks me to prove a negative and tries to pass off gameplay mechanics for canon, not to mention lies to himself because he can't debate.

Can you prove that she wasn't going all out?

What does that have to do with what Mandalore says?

If you read my posts you will see that I never debated whether or not the Exile can beat Ulic. I debated that the Exile is more than just an average Force user. She (do you feel better) seems to be very underestimated. Perhaps you are right about gameplay but the point is that the Exile is stated to be more powerful than normal Force users. Her triumph over the Sith lords and Atris and what the Jedi masters say on Dantooine is enough . Yes I know Nihilus was weakened but he was still a powerful Sith. Sion is defeated because of having a weak will but Traya loses despite not holding back (provide proof that she is and I'll change my mind). What the counsel says still remains and you still haven't said anything about Atris.

Originally posted by the_satan32
Can you prove that she wasn't going all out?

What does that have to do with what Mandalore says?

If you read my posts you will see that I never debated whether or not the Exile can beat Ulic. I debated that the Exile is more than just an average Force user. She (do you feel better) seems to be very underestimated. Perhaps you are right about gameplay but the point is that the Exile is stated to be more powerful than normal Force users. Her triumph over the Sith lords and Atris and what the Jedi masters say on Dantooine is enough . Yes I know Nihilus was weakened but he was still a powerful Sith. Sion is defeated because of having a weak will but Traya loses despite not holding back (provide proof that she is and I'll change my mind). What the counsel says still remains and you still haven't said anything about Atris. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Again with the proving of a negative? Traya loved the Exile and it's clear she wasn't going out during their final battle. Can you prove that she was going all out?

Uh the fact that if you don't influence him, he doesn't say it, the fact that it's a gameplay mechanics.

The exile specializes in force bonds and accidental force drain, due to her being a wound. Other than that, there's nothing that makes her superior to normal force users. I don't need to say anything about Atris, because she doesn't seem more than average as well. Not to mention she gets manipulated by Traya rather easily.

Actually I'm trying to prove the positive. It's natural to assume that in a fight to the death both of them will give the best they have. So saying otherwise is trying to prove otherwise. I already gave several reasons that Kreia would go all out. She and Sion say that if the Exile doesn't fight Kreia will kill her. The fact that Kreia keeps going and summons the floating sabers even after the Exile has won. And as I have said before it's against her philosophy. Besides Sion also loves the Exile but he tries to kill her anyway.

He may not say it but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe it. But it doesn't really matter.

I agree about the bonds but what about this :

1. "But...I'm much more powerful now!"

2. "I'm much stronger then I've ever been!"

The masters respond with:

Vrook: "So you think! That is not the power of a Jedi you feel!"

Zez-kai Ell: He's right. Its… all the death you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor… it's in you, it's what you are now. You must have noticed as you've fought across all these planets, killing hundreds — only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that was?

Basically this drain means that the Exile becomes more and more powerful the more she kills. And the possible answers the Exile has
1. "But...I'm much more powerful now!"
2. "I'm much stronger then I've ever been!"
suggests that the power she drains is permanent and not temporary as Borbarad claimed.

Originally posted by Allankles
That's where you're wrong, Nihilus was more powerful than Kun, he's uber.

No. He has a single ability that is "uber" and that's it.

I can't beleive you're making a case for Ulic based on stale mating a relatively green Jedi turned Sith, who at that point probably hadn't reached his peak (peak being he's power level at the end of his life).

He was good enough to defeat 600 year old Jedi Master in duels and toss people like Aleema apart casually with a single force attack. And his "peak" ? He had actually read through anything Sadow left behind at the point he confronted Ulic. He already had his amulet. He already destroyed Nadd's spirit. The only thing that he might have done during the time between that day and his death was a) coming up with a new lightsaber + style b) studying what he had taken from Ossus. Yet on Ossus he was again capable to kill a 1,000 year old Jedi Master who had defeated Ancient Sith in personal confrontation while another one immediatly admits that he can't take on Kun in combat and turns into a giant tree thing by drawing away energy from the planet itself.

Face it, there are Sith who's powers and knowledge have surpassed Kun, namely Nihilus (in power) and Traya (in knoweldge). I don't need an omniscient narrator to tell me that Kun had more knowledge than he knew what do with (in 6 months time)..., no shit. I mean he was encountering Sith knowledge that had taken Sadow almost a life time to learn.

Oh my you freaking ignorant idiot. The omniscient narrator says Kun had more knowledge than he could EVER use. No shit. You're are as stupid as somebody can actually get if not getting the meaning of that statement.

Knowldege: Traya > Kun

Proof ? Ah thx. Kun had more viable sources and was obviously eager to study them. He had no problems in mastering Sith alchemy and Sith magic in the matter of six month. If you show me Traya constructing Sith amulets or create completely new creatures as well as freezing the entire Senate on the spot, you can come back to me.

Power: Nihilus > Kun
Let's not forget Sion who'd achieved nigh immortality in his physical body. Let's not forget that the Exile didn't just stale mate these Sith, he beat every one of them.

The Exile over Ulic.

Nihilus was done in a three on one and he was weakened during that twice (first: attempt to drain the Exile, second: Visas assaulting him through the force). Hardly a glorious action. Sion was still convinced to give up. And Kreia is still not as powerful as Kun was. So what did you want to tell me ? Put Kun in the same situations.

Nihilus: Kun resists force drain (as he did with a similar attack before) and kicks Nihilus ass over the place.

Sion: Kun points his hand at him and tosses him through the room like a ragdoll as long as he pleases, or blasts him into pieces with his amulet, or takes the "talk him to death" Exile route.

Kreia: "Hey look baby. I have Sith amulets" Blows her into the core of Malachor V.

I'll give you an example in ROTS. Remember when Grievous escaped by breaking one of the windows in the bridge, disrupting the internal atmosphere of the bridge? What did Obi and Anakin have to do? They had to close off and seal the windows with an emergency lock down to avoid getting sucked into the vacuum of space.

Did you watch the film ? Did you notice how the Invisible Hand was constantly attacked to a point WHERE THE SHIELDS FAILED. Ups.

Why use the word luck? There's no real luck in fiction and the Jedi Exile is far from being an average Jedi. Your argument is weak because, "Average Jedi" in the context of Kotor 2 is very much meaningless. Maybe if the Exile had had average achievements, but that didn't happen in Kotor 2.

This isn't feat wars. Without the event of being turned into a wound in the force, Nihilus would have killed the Exile with his very first attack. Any doubt about that ?

That's beside the point, Nihilus "choked" Visas with the force, for all we know the technique may not be as "basic" as you assume. For instance, when Vader choked the officer while situated in an entirely different part of the ship. Now, it might be assumed that choke is just an aggressive form of TK, but for Vader to create a connection through the force, along the many corridors and contours of a large star destroyer seems pretty complex. This was an irrelevant argument anyway.

You noticed how RotS Anakin was capable of force choking Padme, right ? Luke did also use that technique in RotJ. Apparently both did that without special training involved.

Not at all, Kreia was an unconventional Jedi, she studied both the dark side and the light with equal vigor, Odan and Vodo were very much Jedi in the conventional mode, so no they were not as powerful in the force as Kreia.

Hello, idiot. Odan Urr did defeat Ancient Sith Lords in personal confrontation as he tells Nomi Sunrider when teaching her the wall of light attack. Right. The same people who Kreia descripes as being so uber powerful that she and the Exile would look like children playing with toys compared to them. Yet somehow Kreia is more powerful than Odan Urr who happened to EXPERIENCE the epitomes of Dark Siders in personal confrontation and who kept some Sith holocrons around him just in case. Yeah. Of course, dude.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nihilus: Kun resists force drain (as he did with a similar attack before) and kicks Nihilus ass over the place.

I'm not going to argue about anything else but has Kun really resisted an attack that can drain entire planets? If Kun is so powerful wouldn't this just make him a tasty meal for Darth N? Only someone who is a wound in the Force should be able to resist it. If and entire force sensitive race and about a 100 Jedi couldn't resist his power how can Kun do it?
I admit I don't read SW comics I just debated that the Exile is over an average Jedi.

Um... bump.. 😄

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. He has a single ability that is "uber" and that's it.

He was good enough to defeat 600 year old Jedi Master in duels and toss people like Aleema apart casually with a single force attack. And his "peak" ? He had actually read through anything Sadow left behind at the point he confronted Ulic. He already had his amulet. He already destroyed Nadd's spirit.

Odan -Urr never proved himself to be anything special. Saying you defeated ancient Sith and then show nothing to prove that you're anywhere near as bad ass as you say you are, doesn't cut it. By the same token, Kreia defeated many Sith, that years later would be called ancients. Kreia was talking about lightsaber dueling, during a time Sith used lightsabers, Sadow and his ilk clearly didn't use lightsabers, try again.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Oh my you freaking ignorant idiot. The omniscient narrator says Kun had more knowledge than he could [b]EVER use. No shit. You're are as stupid as somebody can actually get if not getting the meaning of that statement.[/B]

And how much time did he have to study that knowledge? 6 months. Defeats the gravity of that statement right there.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Proof ? Ah thx. Kun had more viable sources and was obviously eager to study them. He had no problems in mastering Sith alchemy and Sith magic in the matter of six month. If you show me Traya constructing Sith amulets or create completely new creatures as well as freezing the entire Senate on the spot, you can come back to me.

Proof?! Kreia showed herself to be master of the force. One, her knowledge of all the lightsaber forms, her knowledge of several force forms, her knowledge of specialized techniques like BM (Onderon), Beast Trick (Dxun), Mind reading and probing, her intimate knowledge of force drain.

Not to mention her ability to hold her breathe for a long time with the force, her ability to put herself in a trance where she shows no life signs, her ability to mask her presence in the force even while standing next to very powerful force sensitives, her ability to use three lightsabers simultaneously with TK.

Her ability to create echoes in the force, propell monumental events with the smallest of actions.

The wealth of the knowledge she openly displays far exceeds anything Kun ever showed himself to know. So quit trying to pass your obviously illogical and biased reasoning as fact, because it's far from it.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Did you watch the film ? Did you notice how the Invisible Hand was constantly attacked to a point [b]WHERE THE SHIELDS FAILED. Ups..[/B]

Ups yourself dummy. You want me to believe that the Ravager, which was far more beaten up than the Invisible Hand (at that point) had operational energy shields while the Invisible Hand did not? Let's bring this up again: Grievous compromises the hull in the bridge, Obi has to seal the breach to prevent from getting sucked into space.

Give me one example where a breach in the hull was compensated for by a friggin energy shield, in sw?

Your arguments are devoid of sense.

Originally posted by Borbarad

You noticed how RotS Anakin was capable of force choking Padme, right ? Luke did also use that technique in RotJ. Apparently both did that without special training involved.

First of all, Visas was clearly able to speak, which presents a possibility that Nihilus was doing more to her than merely constricting her wind pipe.

Two, this is irrelevant, you obviously didn't understand what I meant by basic is all a matter of interpretation. Your apparent arguments to the contrary proved this, how about broadening your scope to not only your narrowed view of the techniques by themselves, but also their place in the many interpretations of fiction we have in SW.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Hello, idiot. Odan Urr did [b]defeat Ancient Sith Lords in personal confrontation as he tells Nomi Sunrider when teaching her the wall of light attack. Right. The same people who Kreia descripes as being so uber powerful that she and the Exile would look like children playing with toys compared to them. Yet somehow Kreia is more powerful than Odan Urr who happened to EXPERIENCE the epitomes of Dark Siders in personal confrontation and who kept some Sith holocrons around him just in case. Yeah. Of course, dude. [/B]

Pray tell, who were these ancient Sith that he beat? Saying you beat Ancient Sith means absolutely nothing, if you don't show yourself to be as good as you claim you are. Odan never proved that he's anywhere near Kreia's league.

And Kreia was talking about the ancients who used lightsabers, none of the ancient Sith we've come to read about used lightsabers, so you can stop with your umpteenth idiotic argument.

Originally posted by Allankles
Odan -Urr never proved himself to be anything special. Saying you defeated ancient Sith and then show nothing to prove that you're anywhere near as bad ass as you say you are, doesn't cut it. By the same token, Kreia defeated many Sith, that years later would be called ancients. Kreia was talking about lightsaber dueling, during a time Sith used lightsabers, Sadow and his ilk clearly didn't use lightsabers, try again.

And how much time did he have to study that knowledge? 6 months. Defeats the gravity of that statement right there.

Proof?! Kreia showed herself to be master of the force. One, her knowledge of all the lightsaber forms, her knowledge of several force forms, her knowledge of specialized techniques like BM (Onderon), Beast Trick (Dxun), Mind reading and probing, her intimate knowledge of force drain.

Not to mention her ability to hold her breathe for a long time with the force, her ability to put herself in a trance where she shows no life signs, her ability to mask her presence in the force even while standing next to very powerful force sensitives, her ability to use three lightsabers simultaneously with TK.

The wealth of the knowledge she openly displays far exceeds anything Kun ever showed himself to know. So quit trying to pass your obviously illogical and biased reasoning as fact, because it's far from it.

Ups yourself dummy. You want me to believe that the Ravager, which was far more beaten up than the Invisible Hand (at that point) had operational energy shields while the Invisible Hand did not? Let's bring this up again: Grievous compromises the hull in the bridge, Obi has to seal the breach to prevent from getting sucked into space.

Your arguments are devoid of sense.

First of all, Visas was clearly able to speak, which presents a possibility that Nihilus was doing more to her than merely constricting her wind pipe.

Two, this is irrelevant, you obviously didn't understand what I meant by basic is all a matter of interpretation. Your apparent arguments to the contrary proved this, how about broadening your scope to not only your narrowed view of the techniques by themselves, but also their place in the many interpretations of fiction we have in SW.

Pray tell, who were these ancient Sith that he beat? Saying you beat Ancient Sith means absolutely nothing, if you don't show yourself to be as good as you claim you are. Odan never proved that he's anywhere near Kreia's league.

And Kreia was talking about the ancients who used lightsabers, none of the ancient Sith we've come to read about used lightsabers, so you can stop with your umpteenth idiotic argument. [/B]

Originally posted by the_satan32
I'm not going to argue about anything else but has Kun really resisted an attack that can drain entire planets? If Kun is so powerful wouldn't this just make him a tasty meal for Darth N? Only someone who is a wound in the Force should be able to resist it. If and entire force sensitive race and about a 100 Jedi couldn't resist his power how can Kun do it?
I admit I don't read SW comics I just debated that the Exile is over an average Jedi.

Can you stop pulling that craptasting numbers out of the sky ?
Thon did survive the attack of a Sith which did wipe the entire life from Ambria. So obviously this can be done. And everybody able to shield his presence in the force (or "minimize it" as it's descriped) should be capable of surviving an attack like that. As people capable of doing that would offer no target to such an attack any longer. And the list of people capable of perfoming something like this is actually pretty long, ranging from pretty much every Sith since Bane over people like Tholme up to various members of the NJO.

@Allankles

Odan -Urr never proved himself to be anything special. Saying you defeated ancient Sith and then show nothing to prove that you're anywhere near as bad ass as you say you are, doesn't cut it. By the same token, Kreia defeated many Sith, that years later would be called ancients. Kreia was talking about lightsaber dueling, during a time Sith used lightsabers, Sadow and his ilk clearly didn't use lightsabers, try again.

Lmao. First: Odan is capable of using the wall of light attack which is pretty apparent as he teaches it to Nomi. Second: I don't see why he should actually lie to Nomi. Third: Going by this he's actually capable of using this technique against powerful opponents. Fourth: This alone does put him above the Jedi Masters in KotoR 2 as they can't affect the Exile in case the Exile tries to defend herself. Fifth: Odan Urr studied the ways of the force for more than 1,000 years and had a rather huge library filled with knowledge. It was him who did invent the Jedi Code in case you didn't notice that.

And Kreia did defeat what ? Not a single person would be the right answer. And surely nobody recognized as "Ancient Sith" as this term refers to the inhabitants of the Ancient Sith Empire only. And Kreia talks about the ancient Siths prowess in battle not about lightsaber combat specifically.

And how much time did he have to study that knowledge? 6 months. Defeats the gravity of that statement right there.

You really are that stupid, right ? Do I really have to type it again for you ? In the courtesy of that six months Kun learned how to use Sith alchemy (he created new lifeforms, he created a new Sith amulet), Sith magic (seen when he freezes the senate and blasts Aleema aside). He even claims to have learned everything that Sadow had to offer about Sith magic in the short period of time that lies between defeating Nadd's spirit and confronting Ulic. Yet he doesn't, for all we know, gain any new knowledge source until the day he plunders Ossus.

Proof?! Kreia showed herself to be master of the force. One, her knowledge of all the lightsaber forms, her knowledge of several force forms, her knowledge of specialized techniques like BM (Onderon), Beast Trick (Dxun), Mind reading and probing, her intimate knowledge of force drain.

Lmao. Yes she can give some general information about the lightsaber forms. I can do the same. Am I a master of all lightsaber forms now ? Apparently not. Force forms ? Gameplay and only matter if you play as Counselor. "Specialized" techniques ? Battle Meditation can be learned, the Beast Trick is so "specialized" that every Koruunai can perform it - aside of the fact that five year old Jacen Solo could do that. How impressive. Mind reading and probing ? Actually can be performed by almost every Jedi. Force drain ? Oh yeah...I guess Kun who mastered every bit of Sith knowledge Sadow had to offer wasn't capable of doing something like that. Oh wait...apparently he drained almost all Massassi on Yavin 4 to perform his nice ritual in the end. When Kreia wipes out the population of a small city please give me a call.

Not to mention her ability to hold her breathe for a long time with the force, her ability to put herself in a trance where she shows no life signs, her ability to mask her presence in the force even while standing next to very powerful force sensitives, her ability to use three lightsabers simultaneously with TK.

Oh man. Do I have to answer every damn bullshit five times ?
Holding her breathe for a long time would totally help her to survive against Kun, same with the trance ability. She masked her presence in the force so completly that she lost one hand to Sion if you remember that and using TK on multiple objects simultaneously was done by Luke in ESB.

Her ability to create echoes in the force, propell monumental events with the smallest of actions.

Funny shit. Pass what you're smoking.

The wealth of the knowledge she openly displays far exceeds anything Kun ever showed himself to know. So quit trying to pass your obviously illogical and biased reasoning as fact, because it's far from it.

Yeah. Right. Kreia does no more about Ancient Sith teaching than the likes of Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow who shared their knowledge with Kun. By the virtue of her skills as historian she can gain more knowledge and power than somebody like Kun who was chosen by Ragnos (whos grasp on the Dark Side Kreia descripes as frightening) personally. She somehow managed to gain knowledge that was apparently lost from the Galaxy when the ancient Sith Empire ceased to exists. While even Revan was skimming through the tombs on Korriban to find some Dark Side objects, Kun did simply create them himself.

Ups yourself dummy. You want me to believe that the Ravager, which was far more beaten up than the Invisible Hand (at that point) had operational energy shields while the Invisible Hand did not? Let's bring this up again: Grievous compromises the hull in the bridge, Obi has to seal the breach to prevent from getting sucked into space.

The Ravager was pulled into Malachor by the Mass Shadow Generator. What did overload the ships shields, hmm ? Gravitational energy ?

Give me one example where a breach in the hull was compensated for by a friggin energy shield, in sw?

Again. Did you watch RotS ? Again: Scene when Anakin and Obi-Wan land on the Invisbile hand. They take the shield down. Anything in the hangar should be sucked to the outside at the very same moment or we should at least SEE the oxygen leaving the ship (turning liquid because of temperature in outer space). Did you see that happening ? Because I didn't. And of course you didn't see a hull breach being compensated with an energy shield as a hull breach in a normal battle would require prior overloading of the shields. Still we do have multiple accounts where energy shields are used to keep the athmosphere INSIDE a space ship most apparent with the hangars of the two Death Stars.

Two, this is irrelevant, you obviously didn't understand what I meant by basic is all a matter of interpretation. Your apparent arguments to the contrary proved this, how about broadening your scope to not only your narrowed view of the techniques by themselves, but also their place in the many interpretations of fiction we have in SW.

Where are there many interpretations of what can be defined as "basic" techniques ? Every use of telekinesis, telepathy, strength / speed entchantment and sensing the force can be done by EVERY trained force user as it's really basic training to learn stuff like that. And there are other techniques that can't be used by every force user.

Pray tell, who were these ancient Sith that he beat? Saying you beat Ancient Sith means absolutely nothing, if you don't show yourself to be as good as you claim you are. Odan never proved that he's anywhere near Kreia's league.

The Jedi did apparently invade the Ancient Sith Empire and destroyed what was left of it after Sadow's return from republic space. That would be a pretty nice amount of Dark Siders actually. For Odan see above.

And Kreia was talking about the ancients who used lightsabers, none of the ancient Sith we've come to read about used lightsabers, so you can stop with your umpteenth idiotic argument.

Of course dude. Here's the quote: "If you were to face an ancient Sith lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the ancient masters." She refers to Ancient Sith Lords in general and combat in general. So you can stop with that rediculous statement now and STFU, noob.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Odan Urr was able to use the wall of light technique on ancient sith, the greatest jedi technique. You don't know ANYONE Kreia defeated, so stop pretending. And Kreia wasn't talking about lightsaber duels, she was talking about combat in general, try again.

But we've seen Kreia defeat Sith on Malachor, Sith who were said to grow in power proportional to the force strength of their opponents. And the wall of light didn't help Odan in the comics. He says he defeated Sith we've never seen or heard off, then he proceeds to get his ass handed to him. Wow?! Oh so impressive, try again dummy.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

6 months of all the ancient sith knowledge from Sadow that DIED with Kun+Ossus>Traya...

Proof? And what do you think Kreia was doing as a chronicler of the Jedi order? Kreia was essentially responsible for the archiving and creation of the Jedi holocrons for years, decades. Kun was a green Jedi turned Sith trying o use centuries worth of knowledge in 6 months.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
My my you ARE an idiot. I didn't know Traya knew all the lightsaber forms? OH that's right, she doesn't. Not to mention there's no canon source that she knows battle meditation. Good god douchebag, you still don't understand the concept of gameplay mechanics. I guess the exile knows force storm!!...

She knew all the lightsaber forms, there are only seven if you remember. This is canon, as she has knowledge of every force form and lightsaber form the Exile could possibly use. Translation for dummies: her knowledge is not dependent on the gameplay.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Except for the fact that Kun knew techniques Traya didn't, sith magic, sith alchemy, amulet construction. It's enough that your argument is being destroyed everytime you post, it's sad that you have to lie to yourself. Kun>Traya, get over it.

Great argument Einstein, you could use this argument for just about anyone. Logical fallacies are abound in most of your arguments, and yet you continue to show your inability to mount a decent argument.

Let me put it like this (for the simple minded): there are techniques each has demonstrated that the other hasn't. My point was, Kreia has shown a lot more knowledge of the force than Kun. Her many lectures on the force and many techniques is proof of this.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Nobody cares what you believe.

It's not a matter of belief Hawkins, its a matter of the physical laws that abound in that universe. The ships hull besides, forming a large part of the structural integrity of a vessel, help maintain the internal pressure of the ship, energy shields function by creating barriers along the hull to absorb and deflect energy, they don't compensate for breached hulls as "plugs". So get you terms right.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Gee, last time it was a force choke, this time it's possibly something else? Bullshit? Yes

Who gives a crap? Apparently you missed the part where I said it's irrelevant.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

You mean the argument that has destroyed yours for the umpteenth time? Do everyone a favor and take your stupidity somewhere else..

Wow! You've crushed my arguments. How about letting someone with above-kindergaten mental awareness do the arguing for you? You're laughable with your posts. At least try to do some debating that involves more than writing "bs", "get over it" and "I'm a superior debater".

I mean c'mon, you don't think the Exile's hot - fine, but show us why you don't think so, beyond regurgitating weak arguments that have already been refuted with reason.

Originally posted by Allankles
But we've seen Kreia defeat Sith on Malachor, Sith who were said to grow in power proportional to the force strength of their opponents. And the wall of light didn't help Odan in the comics. He says he defeated Sith we've never seen or heard off, then he proceeds to get his ass handed to him. Wow?! Oh so impressive, try again dummy.

Proof? And what do you think Kreia was doing as a chronicler of the Jedi order? Kreia was essentially responsible for the archiving and creation of the Jedi holocrons for years, decades. Kun was a green Jedi turned Sith trying o use centuries worth of knowledge in 6 months.

She knew all the lightsaber forms, there are only seven if you remember. This is canon, as she has knowledge of every force form and lightsaber form the Exile could possibly use. Translation for dummies: her knowledge is not dependent on the gameplay.

Great argument Einstein, you could use this argument for just about anyone. Logical fallacies are abound in most of your arguments, and yet you continue to show your inability to mount a decent argument.

Let me put it like this (for the simple minded): there are techniques each has demonstrated that the other hasn't. My point was, Kreia has shown a lot more knowledge of the force than Kun. Her many lectures on the force and many techniques is proof of this.

Who gives a crap? Apparently you missed the part where I said it's irrelevant.

Wow! You've crushed my arguments. How about letting someone with above-kindergaten mental awareness do the arguing for you? You're laughable with your posts. At least try to do some debating that involves more than writing "bs", "get over it" and "I'm a superior debater".

I mean c'mon, you don't think the Exile's hot - fine, but show us why you don't think so, beyond regurgitating weak arguments that have already been refuted with reason. [/B]

And she doesn't talk about combat, in general dumbass, she talks about Tulak horde being the greatest of lightsaber duelists among the ancient Sith and that the current gen would be as children playing with toys (toys being the lightsabers) compared to the ancient masters (of the lightsaber).

Don't just pick and choose parts of the quotes to suit your crappy arguments. Kreia was talking about lightsaber combat specifically, as it's the Exile who asks Kreia about the lightsaber combat in his age as compared to the ancient Sith.