As requested - The argument about crap music...and a (fair) poll

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Read it...tell me what you think...and then we'll continue

This is what AC says regarding what he means when he says "this is crap"

What I think is...if I don't understand what AC is saying then I will ask him myself. I don't need you to tell me what he is saying. I think I understand his position. What I think he is saying is that any such language someone is capable of using in regards to the quality of music (goodness/badness) is subjective.

He can tell me himself if I am correct or not.

Ok...you missed it

The "quality" of music?

How can he say music has "quality" if music can't actually be "bad" or "good"?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
How can he say music has "quality" if music can't actually be "bad" or "good"?

If music does not exist independantly of our minds than any language used to describe it is inherently subjective.

I'm gonna spell it for you...there is no "quality" of music according to what he thinks regarding no truly bad/good music existing.

Saying a piece of music is truly "good" means that it possesses an amount of quality. It has higher quality than music that might be said to be truly "bad" (although...this can't be said according to you).

So saying...

"each person determines their own view and opinion on the quality of a song, it's all opinion."

...is a contradictory statement.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I'm gonna spell it for you...there is no "quality" of music according to what he thinks regarding no truly bad/good music

I told you already, I can ask AC what he means myself. I don't need you telling me what he means.

But whatever. What's your point?

Saying a piece of music is truly "good" means that it possesses an amount of quality. It has higher quality than music that might be said to be truly "bad" (although...this can't be said according to you)

What does "amount of quality" mean? How on earth can you use quality quantitatively?

Originally posted by Ytse
What's your point?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I'm gonna spell it for you...there is no "quality" of music according to what he thinks regarding no truly bad/good music exists.

Saying a piece of music is truly "good" means that it possesses an amount of quality. It has higher quality than music that might be said to be truly "bad" (although...this can't be said according to you).

So saying...

[B]"each person determines their own view and opinion on the quality of a song, it's all opinion."

...is a contradictory statement....if you're essentially saying musical quality doesn't exist. [/B]

So what if you don't like ACs logic? I said we have the same conclusion but I sure as hell didn't develop his argument.

Originally posted by Ytse
How on earth can you use quality quantitatively?

..."each person determines their own view and opinion on the quality of a song

He's saying he's determining quality...but wait...this is the same person that says there is NO SUCH THING as TRULY good or bad music.

You're saying you can't say what the quality of a piece of music is...just like you can't say what the quality of a piece of wine is.

But he's saying...

..."each person determines their own view and opinion on the quality of a song

Again, I ask how this is relevant to me? I said that his argument is not my argument.

Well...he's convinced it is.

Thing is...I think you're able to realise that within your understanding of music, saying "This song sucks" doesn't say anything about what quality a song might have...

...But he says that he and others determine quality of songs or music...which makes no sense if he believes what he says he believes regarding music have no objective goodness or crapness

You've said there is no "quallity" that can be placed on music, because you're of the opinion that there is no objectively good/bad music.

One piece of music doesn't have more or less quality than the other...the idea of it is absurd to you...and THAT is totally in line with your thinking there is no objectively good or bad music.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Thing is...I think you're smart enough to know that saying...

"This song sucks" doesn't say anything about what quality a song might have...

Because music doesn't exist objectively either. There are only soundwaves. And it's up to the individual observer to decide how to interpret sound. Some sound may be regarded as noise. Other sound may be regarded as music. But "noise" and "music" aren't properties of soundwaves. They're concepts invented by humanity.

So my point...and we'll end it here...is that people like AC make comments like "this song is crap"...(people who say there's no such thing as objectively good/bad music)...and can't accept it when I show them how all they can really be saying with such as statement is that they "really, really don't like this song" or "it doesn't appeal" to them...because how could they be otherwise making a statement about the song “actually” sucking or being crap, or (as AC said) determining it's value? They can't according to their belief of no objectively good/bad music...ie. music that has no concept of value.

It's so simple...can't believe you don't get it.

Saying "this song is crap" or "this wine is crap", and suggesting that you said it to show you really don't like the song/wine makes sense.

Saying "this song is crap" or "this wine is crap" and suggesting that you've said what you've said because of what you've determined it's value to be (like AC does) makes no sense...let alone calling a person an idiot for having a different opinion than you

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
It's so simple...can't believe you don't get it.

What is there to get? I already said I don't care about your analysis of someone else's argument because it isn't my argument.

FORGET ANYONE ELSE'S ARGUMENT...I'm asking YOU...I'm isolating you and asking...

Is there quality you can place on music? Yes or no?

And if not, then what do YOU mean when you say "this song sucks"?

Did you read this?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Saying "this song is crap" or "this wine is crap", and suggesting that you said it to show you really don't like the song/wine makes sense.

Saying "this song is crap" or "this wine is crap" and suggesting that you've said what you've said because of what you've determined it's quality to be makes no sense...because there is no quality with music, is there?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Is there quality you can place on music? Yes or no?

Yes. Timbre, Pitch, Tempo, Dynamics (whether its loud or soft), etc.

then what do YOU mean when you say "this song sucks"?

Generally it would probably mean that I don't like the song. One cannot say a song sucks objectively because there is no such thing as a song in the external world. As I said, there are only soundwaves and how we interpret them.

Originally posted by Ytse
Yes. Timbre, Pitch, Tempo, Dynamics (whether its loud or soft), etc.

Well just so you know those aren't the things he (or others) mention...these are...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Personally, I don't like LDN by Lily Allen. I think it sounds very boring, very dull and very false.

Ridiculous

Originally posted by Ytse
Generally it would probably mean that I don't like the song.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Rrright...so what are you saying, when people (like AC) who have said they detemine quality in music, are looking and Timbre, Pitch and Tempo?

You are aware that the word "quality" has more than one definition aren't you? I am not speaking on behalf of AC or anyone but myself so stop asking me what he was thinking.

Okay...congratulations. But WHAT ELSE COULD it mean?

That's it. There's no other way I'd use that word when talking about music.

Originally posted by Ytse
That's it. There's no other way I'd use that word when talking about music.

And it's because you're able to grasp why there'd be no other reason to say "this song is crap" apart from simply to express you don't like it.

Which I'm also GUESSING would mean that you wouldn't ridicule or insult someone for simply liking the same song you hate.

If only everyone was as level headed as you

Originally posted by Ytse
You are aware that the word "quality" has more than one definition aren't you? I am not speaking on behalf of AC or anyone but myself so stop asking me what he was thinking.

His measure of quality "It's boring, dull, false" is ridiculous...and says a song sucks because those are the views and opinions he has of the quality of the song.

I'm agreeing with you that it's different