As requested - The argument about crap music...and a (fair) poll

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And it's because you're able to grasp why there'd be no other reason to say "this song is crap" apart from simply to express you don't like it.

No, there could be plenty of reasons to say it. Someone could say that just to hurt someone they knew liked the song when they really didn't have a true opinion about it. Somone could say it just to try and fit in with their friends who all think it is crap.

But there are no other reasons why I would say it other than to express that I dislike the song.

Either way, no one can talk about music at all except in subjective terms (other than the physical properties I mentioned earlier--pitch, timbre, and so on).

Which I'm also GUESSING would mean that you wouldn't ridicule or insult someone for simply liking the same song you hate.

*shrug*

I don't think I would resort to that, no.

Originally posted by Ytse
No, there could be plenty of reasons to say it. Someone could say that just to hurt someone they knew liked the song when they really didn't have a true opinion about it. Somone could say it just to try and fit in with their friends who all think it is crap.

Originally posted by Ytse
But there are no other reasons why I would say it other than to express that I dislike the song.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Right...because you realize there'd be no other reason to say "this song is crap" in terms of what it might ELSE it could be saying about the music

Which is implicit in my previous statement:

Either way, no one can talk about music at all except in subjective terms (other than the physical properties I mentioned earlier--pitch, timbre, and so on).

So regarding a statement like "this song is crap"...

Originally posted by Ytse
there are no other reasons why I would say it other than to express that I dislike the song.

But most other people here would vehemently disagree with you...and say that "this song is crap" means more than just expressing they dislike the song (even though these very people have the same belief...there is no truly crap or truly good music)

In fact one of them claims you can say "this song is crap" because it says what your opinion is about the quality of the music.

So...you're up against it!

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
But most other people here would vehemently disagree with you...and say that "this song is crap" means more than just expressing they dislike the song (even though these very people have the same belief

Most people? Prove it. You can't just say that.

Technique and technical aspects are the only area in music that is objective, and they do not mean anything when connected to what the end product (Music) sounds like.

A technically great guitar piece can be proven, it cannot be proven that it sounds good.

I asked you before to stop referencing me and my proposals unless you are prepared to discuss them directly.

Here, I will clear it up for you:

By definition of the existence of shit or good songs is as follows: There is nothing objectively good or shit, because that would apply to everybody. No OBJECTIVELY good or bad exist. When I say as song is shit, that is me calling it a shit song subjectively, that is me using the word "shit", to judge the song in my opinion, just like when I say a song is good. The NOTION of shit songs and good songs exists, but it is solely up to us as individuals to decide what those are, and even then, we can only decide what they are for ourselves, it's not objective.

Please read that, or stop referencing me, because I will report you. You're confused about what I mean, so I'm explaining. Don't ignore it so you can keep on misinterpreting it. I am not saying my argument is Ytse's argument at all, so stop speaking for me you idiot. I'm saying we have the same point; Music, outside of measurable and provable areas, is entirely subjective and therefore and objective standard of quality can not exist (Because the terms "Good" and "Bad" do suggest quality.).

YOU are now harping over my choice of words regarding me thinking if a shit song can exist, which I have explained, civilly, above. If this isn't enough and you keep ignoring me for your own purposes, I will report you for trolling and baiting, because that's ridiculous. You can't expect us to read and analyse your posts if you keep ignoring ours.

-AC

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So next time you, AC, say such a sentence...or next time people like the ones who made fun of me for (seemingly) liking Creed, KNOW what it actually means...NOTHING...(except for the obvious..."that song doesn't appeal to me".

W-which is actually quite the opposite of nothing.......something.

Oh also, I don't agree that there would be an objective standard in music if God came down and told us what it is. It would still be his opinion....and mine would be better. FACT!

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
AC you lost...you said "Precisely" about what I said in my quote...you agreed. You're not saying anything different in your quote...you're agreeing and asking why I'm saying I'm right and you're wrong about the same thing.

No, he did not lose.

Your quote just summarized his originial argument. To agree with it does not make him lose, it shows that he still believes there is not objectivity in music. For him to "lose" you would have to prove that there is an objective good or bad in music or, for the sake of you having a chance (none), convince him that there is one and make him agree.

So far it went like this.

AC: There is no objective standard in music...all you say about a band is that you like or dislike them.

EP: If you say that you say that there is no objective standard in music...all you say about a band is that you like or dislike them.

AC: Correct.

EP: I win!

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Clever tactic...switch the topic.

Nice try AC

OK...

Originally posted by Bardock42
W-which is actually quite the opposite of nothing.......something.

Just earlier you agreed when I said…

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The ONLY THING you could POSSIBLY MEAN when you say that stuff is "I don't enjoy it...it doesn't appeal to me...I really hate it"

You CAN'T mean anything else...I'm sorry. Because as you said..saying "it's crap" does not mean anything bout something ACTUALLY being crap. So what are you left with...just expressing how it appeals to you.

So either you’re trying to pull a fast on us, or you just weren’t clear on my latest statement. OBVIOUSLY saying “this is crap” means SOMETHING!!! I’m saying it does…it just doesn’t mean anything ELSE about the music ITSELF other than expressing how it appeals to you. I explained this in detail on my posts yesterday.

Clear?

But AC doesn’t get this!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No OBJECTIVELY good or bad exist. When I say as song is shit, that is me calling it a shit song subjectively, that is me using the word "shit", to judge the song in my opinion, just like when I say a song is good.

He DOES NOT get it!!!

If there is no GOOD and BAD music…then WHAT’S there to actually JUDGE? How are these criteria you’re using “ACTUALLY” judging or “ACTAULLY” determining the quality (as he says) of something that can’t ACTUALLY be found to be good or bad? Well…they’re not!

So, as I showed above…saying “this is crap” isn’t ACTUALLY pointing to any “CRAPINESS” that’s there…because there IS NO “CRAPINESS” there (according to you).

”CRAP” or “GOOD” are ONLY…ONLY WORDS you can use to express you DISLIKE or LIKE something. THAT’S IT. THEY CAN’T “ACTUALLY” (according to you) MEAN ANYTHING MORE THAN THAT!

BUT HE DISGREES WITH THIS!

THIS IS WHAT HE SAYS I MISQUOTED HIM ON!

THIS IS WHY WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW!

And then he kept saying…NO…”It’s crap to me”…”It’s crap in my opinion”… "each person determines their own view and opinion on the quality of a song”

THERE IS NO “QUALITY” ACCORDING TO YOU AC…GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!!

And it’s not as if maybe you’re using your criteria to GUESS that it MIGHT be “good” or MIGHT be “crap”, because there is no actual “good” and “crap” for you….So WHAT ARE you doing?

ALL you’re actually doing by using your criteria to “judge” or “determine quality” of music (as you say) is ending up with reasons why you LIKE OR DISLIKE IT…NOT reasons why it’s actually GOOD OR CRAP.

I’ll say that again…” ending up with reasons why you LIKE OR DISLIKE IT…NOT reasons why it’s actually GOOD OR CRAP.”

“Good” and “crap” are JUST WORDS you can use to say if something appeals to you or not. THAT’S IT.

BUT that’s what you MAINTAIN I’ve misquoted you on as saying you think this!

And you maintain something CAN BE “crap to me” “crap in my opinion”…or say it’s crap by “determining its quality”. IT CAN’T (according to your beliefs about music).

IT CAN ONLY BE “UNLIKEABLE” or “UNAPEALING” in YOUR opinion!!!!!

It’s not “CRAP” in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM to you…or it’s not “GOOD” in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM to you…”crap” or “good” are just WORDS you can use to express you don’t like it!!! They are NOT (to you) valid concepts for DEFINING MUSIC!

But you KEEP SAYING you don’t actually agree with this. You said…

”No”…”you misquoted me”…”look at the rest of my quote…So if I think something is boring or dull, like Arctic Monkeys, I think it's shit music”

“Shit music”…He’s not saying he doesn’t like it and is using “shit” to express this….no…it’s “Shit music”……to “him”. It’s “shit” in his opinion…after “determining its quality”

Ridiculous…just ridiculous how contradictory he’s being. But it’s right there…of course he’s gonna try and somehow save face…but it’s RIGHT THERE.

IT’S SO SIMPLE…but he doesn’t get the fallacy in his thinking.

And don't just skim through this...read it.

And AC...really...what have you got...why even bother?

sorry...extra post

Even Victor Von Doom sees this…when I was talking about "Creed sucks" meaning nothing if there is no good or bad music and it’s all just opinion, he quoted me saying…

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
But since you've asked...it does means NOTHING if they say it. I personally have no problem with what they're saying. They, and you have the problem...because what's been said doesn't mean ANYTHING according to you.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Correct. It means nothing. Let's move on.

Ytse understands this as well...

Reported for spamming. Keep it to one post.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
YOU CAN’T “JUDGE” SOMETHING THAT (according to you) IS UNJUDGEABLE!!!

He DOES NOT get it!!!

Stop saying he, you idiot.

It's not unjudgeable according to me, it's just not able to be judged OBJECTIVELY. What about that do you not understand?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
If there is no GOOD and BAD music…then WHAT’S there to actually JUDGE? How are these criteria you’re using “ACTUALLY” judging or “ACTAULLY” determining the quality (as he says) of something that can’t ACTUALLY be found to be good or bad? Well…they’re not!

I will say this for the LAST time. There IS good and bad music, but only SUBJECTIVELY. There is no OBJECTIVELY good or bad music.

If you do not stop saying "He", I will report you again, because you are being ridiculous. Who do you think you're talking to? Nobody, literally nobody here, agrees with your point about there being an objective standard of music. So who are you talking to?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So, as I showed above…saying “this is crap” isn’t ACTUALLY pointing to any “CRAPINESS” that’s there…because there IS NO “CRAPINESS” there (according to you).

It's pointing to SUBJECTIVE crappiness, not objective, since objective crap doesn't exist, only subjective crap, which is determined by our own criteria for nobody but ourselves.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
”CRAP” or “GOOD” are ONLY…ONLY WORDS you can use to express you DISLIKE or LIKE something. THAT’S IT. THEY CAN’T “ACTUALLY” (according to you) MEAN ANYTHING MORE THAN THAT!

Then how the hell do you suggest that there can be an objective "good" if they are only words we apply to our own opinions? You are such a retard.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
BUT HE DISGREES WITH THIS!

THIS IS WHAT HE SAYS I MISQUOTED HIM ON!

THIS IS WHY WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW!

Well then listen to me and then you can STOP discussing it, can't you?

Here it is: I do not believe shit or good songs exists OBJECTIVELY, because that would mean we would all have to agree about how it sounds, and that is impossible. The only kind of shit or good that exists is subjective, based on criteria made up by us individually, applied ONLY to ourselves. MY criteria for judging good or crap doesn't apply to you, vice versa.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And then he kept saying…NO…”It’s crap to me”…”It’s crap in my opinion”… "each person determines their own view and opinion on the quality of a song”

THERE IS NO “QUALITY” ACCORDING TO YOU AC…GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!!

Why are you telling me what is and what isn't true according to me?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And it’s not as if maybe you’re using your criteria to GUESS that it MIGHT be “good” or MIGHT be “crap”, because there is no actual “good” and “crap” for you….So WHAT ARE you doing?

I don't need to guess that something might be good or crap, if I like it; It's good. If I don't; It's crap. THIS ONLY applies to me, however. Just like you believing Lily Allen is good only applies to you.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
ALL you’re actually doing by using your criteria to “judge” or “determine quality” of music (as you say) is ending up with reasons why you LIKE OR DISLIKE IT…NOT reasons why it’s actually GOOD OR CRAP.

There are no objective reasons as to why it's good or crap, though.

I can sit here and tell you why I think a song is good or crap, but there is no ACTUALLY/OBJECTIVELY/FACTUALLY good or crap, that is what you fail to grasp cos you're a trolling idiot.

You are asking me to give you reasons why a song is truthfully crap or good, objectively, I cannot. Nobody can, because such a thing is impossible to prove unless we are discussing technique and ability.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
BUT that’s what you MAINTAIN I’ve misquoted you on as saying you think this!

You have, fact.

I've reported you for spamming, baiting and trolling.

Your constant ignorance, multiple posting and cut/paste tactics are ridiculous, disrespectful and moronic.

-AC

Yes, EPIII. Please keep it all in one post next time.

Unfortunately, him saying "he" isn't against the rules, so don't bother reporting him for that.

It's baiting.

If he wants to clear an issue up regarding my posts or proposals, he should address me directly, he doesn't, and when he does, he just ignores the posts.

-AC

AC...AC of all people has been reporting me?

Oh that's rich...THAT'S what he's resorted to!

Coming up with any reasons he can whine about and starting to report me because he's pissed off he's starting to lose an argument.

"Class" personified!

I'm not losing, this debate isn't going on.

It's a posting war, it's not a debate. If you are still debating the idea of there being objectively good and bad music, there's no point, because you're wrong. The debate was over before it started.

I reported you because you can at least keep it sane when you indulge in this thread. For example; One post, at the most, two. Not five in a row, including panicked one liners.

Furthermore, you need to stop telling me and others what we are saying. I explain it to you and you ignore it because you know it's another point, another reason to post down the drain.

You posting here isn't something I can stop, but if you're going to be an idiot just to keep yourself in the game, then I'll report you. You're the one harassing people in PMs, posting your debate to them and bashing me privately. Yes, I know about that.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I will say this for the LAST time. There IS good and bad music, but only SUBJECTIVELY.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't need to guess that something might be good or crap, if I like it; It's good. If I don't; It's crap.

And just as a warning, AC is AGAIN trying to take the foucs off the CURRENT discussion of strictly what "this is crap" means (by someone who thinks there is no objectively good/bad music)...and he's trying to shift the focus back to my original argument...(which I'm not really focusing at all) to have people on his side about it...

...desperate

Stop editing my quotes you idiot.

This was the full second quote: "I don't need to guess that something might be good or crap, if I like it; It's good. If I don't; It's crap. THIS ONLY applies to me, however. Just like you believing Lily Allen is good only applies to you.".

Both the quotes were pointing to "Good" and "Crap" only existing subjectvely. Not me saying one thing and then contradicting myself, that's just what you want it to look like.

Secondly, I'm not trying to take the focus off anything, I AM the focus of this current idiotic tirade of yours, but for some reason you're talking to everyone else except me. Then, when I tell you what I mean, you ignore it, edit my quotes in your favour, then continue on like a special school pupil.

You aren't focusing on your original argument cos you got battered, so you're arguing with everyone else about something I didn't even say, and refuse to accept that you're misunderstanding me and misquoting me because that'd mean you'd have to stop.

-AC

Epibites- you are lying when you say I have agreed with you (to yourself, which is worrying).

I have merely confirmed your restatement of my own points.

Bardock summed it up well.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Your quote just summarized his originial argument. To agree with it does not make him lose, it shows that he still believes there is not objectivity in music. For him to "lose" you would have to prove that there is an objective good or bad in music or, for the sake of you having a chance (none), convince him that there is one and make him agree.

So far it went like this.

AC: There is no objective standard in music...all you say about a band is that you like or dislike them.

EP: If you say that you say that there is no objective standard in music...all you say about a band is that you like or dislike them.

AC: Correct.

EP: I win!

You seem to have lapsed into such idiotic tactics, since the whole objectivity thing didn't work out too well.

You're totally missing the point VVD...you haven't been following the discussion, and I wasn't lying.

AC ISN'T saying ALL you say about a band is you like them or dislike them...he's saying they're "crap to me"..."they're crap in my opinion".

He disagrees that "crap" and "good" are ONLY WORDS to describe why he might like or dislike a song.

Read the posts, or don't comment at all.

See what I mean.

-AC