AOTC Mace vs AOTC Dooku

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
That's ludicrous. Sidious has far more power enough to overwhelm his opponents. Only the likes of Yoda Dooku and mace could block that with their force walls. Maul can't. Right timing doesn't necessarily play a roll in this as the opponent can have all of thier force defenses up, but a more powerful opponent can break through them.

Expanded universe forum. Canon would have to be speciffacly stated for this to be canon only.

I have seen that. I'm very impressed by that. However how about you post where it's says he APPEARED to win the fight showing its more than meets the eye? You can't ignore the other sides evidence just because it challenges what you believe.

The novelization pretty much shows it was a boost that he received due to the Sidious rage and his trust and love being destroyed, watching his brothers die over a war manipulated by the very person he sought to destroy, and the person leading the republic was the Sith. All of that fueled it and after that he was still only able to stalemate Sidious. So really no matter what nothing proves mace was a better deulist or,anything. Due to common sense and I believe psychology, mace wouldn't receive that same boost if he ever fought Sidious again since his own end of inner darkness would be less.

You need to Reread the rules. I've already posted them before and you continue to ignore them.

He beat Sidious and will always have the same resentment towards him. Windu won.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So Dooku did nothing remotely as impressive as stalemating Talzin or defeating his master Sidious.

What's so impressive about stalemating Talzin? Fighting off Yoda's much more impressive.

He needed help to engage Sidious 😂 Dooku engaged Yoda on his own.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Mace successfully deflected fl Yoda dropped his saber. 🙂

When the opening was there. Sidious was greater but he had to work for it unlike against the Jedi council masters who accompanied Mace.

Dooku was owned by Vos and Anakin.

Keep Trolling Trekkie 😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
You have no proof as to your claims. Depends on the timing unless the disparity is huge like between Yoda and Ventress.

You need to Reread the rules. I've already posted them before and you continue to ignore them.

He beat Sidious and will always have the same resentment towards him. Windu won.

Common sense. Dooku able to break through Obi wan's sheild, and Sidious mace with their force defense up.

Expanded universe forum so expanded universe materials are the default. Don't let your personal preferences get in the way.

Not necessarily. It's like in life. If someone does something to you that pisses you off the anger you feel then would be the heat of the moment, your highest point of anger. However as time goes along the anger slowly decreases. That's how the human brain works. Again Windu legitimately winning is both debatable and circumstantial.

Even if he did beat Sidious it doesn't put Mace above Dooku. Dooku was able to go up agaisnt Yoda on his own power passionless not being at 100% performance due to just coming off fighting Ankain and OBi so he may have been tired a little bit on his own. Windu on the other hand had three other masters to help him out, and was able to contend for about 20+ seconds until Sidious had a blade to his chest and let him live. Then he got Vaapad, and was able to contend. So really if anything Dooku would be above Windu by a slight margin.

^ Just as a note, Sidious does praise Dooku's fencing skill in SOD when he easily disarms Mother Talzin in Dooku's body. Implying he would not beat the real Dooku with such ease in a sword fight.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
What's so impressive about stalemating Talzin? Fighting off Yoda's much more impressive.

He needed help to engage Sidious 😂 Dooku engaged Yoda on his own.

Keep Trolling Trekkie 😂

Dooku fled while Windu won.

You conceded.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Common sense. Dooku able to break through Obi wan's sheild, and Sidious mace with their force defense up.

Expanded universe forum so expanded universe materials are the default. Don't let your personal preferences get in the way.

Not necessarily. It's like in life. If someone does something to you that pisses you off the anger you feel then would be the heat of the moment, your highest point of anger. However as time goes along the anger slowly decreases. That's how the human brain works. Again Windu legitimately winning is both debatable and circumstantial.

Even if he did beat Sidious it doesn't put Mace above Dooku. Dooku was able to go up agaisnt Yoda on his own power passionless not being at 100% performance due to just coming off fighting Ankain and OBi so he may have been tired a little bit on his own. Windu on the other hand had three other masters to help him out, and was able to contend for about 20+ seconds until Sidious had a blade to his chest and let him live. Then he got Vaapad, and was able to contend. So really if anything Dooku would be above Windu by a slight margin.

Reread the rules.

No, it is a fact on screen he won. Dooku can't hope to beat Sidious and he's lost to well beneath his level. Windu hasn't. Facts decide these debates not Chris Lee's opinion.

Sidious is superior to Windu, Dooku and Windu are equals. Perhaps very small majority for Dooku.

Originally posted by McP
Sidious is superior to Windu, Dooku and Windu are equals. Perhaps very small majority for Dooku.

I'd say Windu is stronger and more offensive (which aids him better against the likes of Palpatine), but that will only give him a small edge against Dooku IMHO.

Because Dooku has amazing fencing skill and is an incredibly skilled all out combat. And Dooku's still considered by Yoda to be the "Temple's Strongest Student" in Canon as well as Legends.

But Windu still did beat Palpatine. Even if Sids threw the fight, Mace was clearly a close match for him in Sabers. So have to give him the edge based solely on that. Having said that I can easily see a stalemate as well.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Due to striking at the right time like any other attack.

Reread the rules.

No, it is a fact on screen he won. Dooku can't hope to beat Sidious and he's lost to well beneath his level. Windu hasn't. Facts decide these debates not Chris Lee's opinion.

Obi wan had his defenses up proving he was just to powerful.

I say the same to you.

Circumstantial and debatable. With a boost he will never receive again he was only able to compete. Of course Dooku could never hope to, but put mace agisnst Palaptine and Windu will lose every time. Again what does that have to do with This match up? The loses Dooku has suffered are not important. If you really wanna knew Windu's track record you would know he lost to someone who was supposedly beneath his skill level in deepa Bilaba. He was stalemated by Sora Bulq, and defeated and stalemated by Count Dooku, and deemed to be second to grandmaster Yoda. Lee's opinion are pretty accurate and can be taken as true in th depending categories.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Obi wan had his defenses up proving he was just to powerful.

I say the same to you.

Circumstantial and debatable. With a boost he will never receive again he was only able to compete. Of course Dooku could never hope to, but put mace agisnst Palaptine and Windu will lose every time. Again what does that have to do with This match up? The loses Dooku has suffered are not important. If you really wanna knew Windu's track record you would know he lost to someone who was supposedly beneath his skill level in deepa Bilaba. He was stalemated by Sora Bulq, and defeated and stalemated by Count Dooku, and deemed to be second to grandmaster Yoda. Lee's opinion are pretty accurate and can be taken as true in th depending categories.

Nah.

Prove he can't use his abilities. Based off canon Windu obliterates Dooku. It isn't close either.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Prove it.

Nah.

Prove he can't use his abilities. Based off canon Windu obliterates Dooku. It isn't close either.

IN the middle of battle and he's a force weilder.

The novel explains how his form was fueled and how it took that and Sidious anger to get to that point. Dooku is much more controlled than Sidious, and his style is the same. So he won't draw on Dooku the same as he did agaisnt Sidious. So based on canon this is indeed close and in fact can go either way.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
IN the middle of battle and he's a force weilder.

The novel explains how his form was fueled and how it took that and Sidious anger to get to that point. Dooku is much more controlled than Sidious, and his style is the same. So he won't draw on Dooku the same as he did agaisnt Sidious. So based on canon this is indeed close and in fact can go either way.

Dooku uses his hated as well so Windu is naturally better suited against Sith. I agree. Windu wins either way.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Prove he had his force defenses up.

Dooku uses his hated as well so Windu is naturally better suited against Sith. I agree. Windu wins either way.

In the middle of battle and he's a force weilder.

I refer you to his battle with Sora Bulq and Deepa Bilaba how they both used their hatred and guess what he lost one to his old apprentice and was stalemated by Bulq. Dooku has even defeated a Vaapad practioner in Sora Bulq who Windu said his own mastery of the form wasn't far behind his own. Also Windu fought Assaj Ventress and he said he needed to use all his skills to defeat her, showing just Vaapad wasn't going to cut it, Dooku defeated her with practiced ease from the jump, same with Grevious(albeit while in sparring scenarios) Dooku could contend with Yoda who is possibly greater than Sidious in lightsaber dueling while a little winded(possibly) and by his own natural skill, no boost included for much longer than Windu did until he got his boost. So based on this the ever so slight edge goes to Dooku.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
In the middle of battle and he's a force weilder.

I refer you to his battle with Sora Bulq and Deepa Bilaba how they both used their hatred and guess what he lost one to his old apprentice and was stalemated by Bulq. Dooku has even defeated a Vaapad practioner in Sora Bulq who Windu said his own mastery of the form wasn't far behind his own. Also Windu fought Assaj Ventress and he said he needed to use all his skills to defeat her, showing just Vaapad wasn't going to cut it, Dooku defeated her with practiced ease from the jump, same with Grevious(albeit while in sparring scenarios) Dooku could contend with Yoda who is possibly greater than Sidious in lightsaber dueling while a little winded(possibly) and by his own natural skill, no boost included for much longer than Windu did until he got his boost. So based on this the ever so slight edge goes to Dooku.

Is any of this other stuff canon ? This isn't an eu thread and we must refer back to the default rules. Ventress also had Anakin and Kenobi at her mercy and the two of them defeated Dooku. Dooku can't best Sidious but Windu did. Even Yoda failed against Sidious.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is not proof but instead just you saying he did.

Is any of this other stuff canon ? This isn't an eu thread and we must refer back to the default rules. Ventress also had Anakin and Kenobi at her mercy and the two of them defeated Dooku. Dooku can't best Sidious but Windu did. Even Yoda failed against Sidious.

It's an understood fact that force walls are up during battle.

I refer to the forum this is in an expanded universe forum. Actually Anakin a,one defeated Kenobi. Kenobi was choked by Dooku then thrown aside. Did implies past tense. That doesn't mean he could do it again. All of that while factors into the verdict doesn't change anything. Dooku can still best Windu even though he has never achieved want Windu has beciase of the context of those battles. Windu had a boost to an extent he won't ever reach again, then his hatred and the dark energy he can get from Dooku aren't enough to get him a boost as he was only able to stalemate Sora Bulq someone full of rage, and I mean a shit ton, and he even lost to deepa Bilaba. Dooku defeated Sora Bulq, a Vaapad practioner with ease.

^ To be fair in Canon not much seems to have changed from Legends, given that Mace didn't Uber Stomp Maul in SOD.

In fact let's be clear Maul won the engagement.

Yes it was due to a surprise attack from his allies (although it didn't surprise Maul for some reason) and yes he had his allies- Mandalorian as back up, but Mace had another frigging Jedi as back up.

And does anyone here (Ignoring our new Troll) honestly think that Maul + 2 Mandalorians would stand a chance against Sidious?

So again where was Uber Vapaad doing it's Uber Stomping against a Sith Lord far far less Powerful than Sidious? That needs to be addressed before claiming "MACE >>> DOOKU BECAUSE HE PUT SIDIOUS ON HIS BUTT ONCE".

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ To be fair in Canon not much seems to have changed from Legends, given that Mace didn't Uber Stomp Maul in SOD.

In fact let's be clear Maul won the engagement.

Yes it was due to a surprise attack from his allies (although it didn't surprise Maul for some reason) and yes he had his allies- Mandalorian as back up, but Mace had another frigging Jedi as back up.

And does anyone here (Ignoring our new Troll) honestly think that Maul + 2 Mandalorians would stand a chance against Sidious?

So again where was Uber Vapaad doing it's Uber Stomping against a Sith Lord far far less Powerful than Sidious? That needs to be addressed before claiming "MACE >>> DOOKU BECAUSE HE PUT SIDIOUS ON HIS BUTT ONCE".

Amazing.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It's an understood fact that force walls are up during battle.

I refer to the forum this is in an expanded universe forum. Actually Anakin a,one defeated Kenobi. Kenobi was choked by Dooku then thrown aside. Did implies past tense. That doesn't mean he could do it again. All of that while factors into the verdict doesn't change anything. Dooku can still best Windu even though he has never achieved want Windu has beciase of the context of those battles. Windu had a boost to an extent he won't ever reach again, then his hatred and the dark energy he can get from Dooku aren't enough to get him a boost as he was only able to stalemate Sora Bulq someone full of rage, and I mean a shit ton, and he even lost to deepa Bilaba. Dooku defeated Sora Bulq, a Vaapad practioner with ease.

Default rules are explained so you're wrong.

No, Dooku cannot due to his slow speed and bad moments compared to Windu's spotless record.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Then it shouldn't be so hard to prove it.

Default rules are explained so you're wrong.

No, Dooku cannot due to his slow speed and bad moments compared to Windu's spotless record.

It's already has. Do you not understand what an understood fact is. When force weilders fight opposing force weilders they have up force shields as seen in Dooku's battle with Anakin on tatooine in the clone wars movie, how he tanks a telekinetic sandstorm vs Obi wan's performance in ROTS how he was simply picked up due to Dooku one of the most powerful force weilders of all time breaking his force sheild.

No where in the rules does it say if it's not mentioned then it's canon only. Then this is an expanded universe thread.

Dooku is one of the fastest duelist in the mythos and has beaten Windu before and stalemated him. I'm not sure where you get him being slow from. I wouldn't call losing to your padawan, being stalemated by your colleague, being defeated by Dooku and being second in the Jedi order as being spotless.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
It's already has. Do you not understand what an understood fact is. When force weilders fight opposing force weilders they have up force shields as seen in Dooku's battle with Anakin on tatooine in the clone wars movie, how he tanks a telekinetic sandstorm vs Obi wan's performance in ROTS how he was simply picked up due to Dooku one of the most powerful force weilders of all time breaking his force sheild.

No where in the rules does it say if it's not mentioned then it's canon only. Then this is an expanded universe thread.

Dooku is one of the fastest duelist in the mythos and has beaten Windu before and stalemated him. I'm not sure where you get him being slow from. I wouldn't call losing to your padawan, being stalemated by your colleague, being defeated by Dooku and being second in the Jedi order as being spotless.

I already posted from the rules the default rules. If I do so again I want you to drop the matter entirely as you're arguing against the basic rules.

Based on what ? He's slower than Maul, Anakin, Vos, Yoda, Windu, and Sidious.