Originally posted by ExodusCloak
No I wasn't. I was trying to show you that even though a characters powers have links to the Astral Plane it doesn't neccessarily mean they can manipulate it or access it. Because to access the astral plane one would need to manipulate and shape it's very energies.(Mental Energy)
This doesnt seem logical to me. First of all is it possible to have access to something without having to manipluate it? I was under the impression astral projection at its basic involves just being able to enter the astral plane manipulating doesnt have to come into it.
Well ok im not being bad but its like im going to have to repeat myself. Is mind reading the only way to shape mental energy? If somebody can makes somebodies mind experience pleasure or pain and make himself invisible isnt that shaping mental energy?
Originally posted by ExodusCloakThe bio you gave me said he "reads" autonomic nervous systems of other people. "Reads" is in inverted commas which could mean he psionically reads and manipulates autonomic nervous systems like Storm reads and psionically manipulates her enviroment. It doesn't make him a true telepath. If that was the case one could say that Storm has limited telepathy and Iceman has limited telepathy.
I dont get it. Where talking about in order to acces the astral plane you need to be able to shape mental energy and therefore you should at least have some power to affect the mind. How did you then bring Iceman and Storm into this? Both Iceman and Storm may have psionic powers but Storms is related to the weather and Iceman temperature there powers are not directly linked to the mind like Manslaughters.
Originally posted by ExodusCloakThe autonomic nervous system is responsible for hearing, seeing etc...which explains how he's able to effect peoples vision and hearing.
This line here:
Yeah so thats not part of the mind then?
Originally posted by ExodusCloakThus he can effectively make himself invisible unless he is seen straight on, and he can prevent someone from hearing him as long as the sounds he makes are roughly at the level of ambient sound in the room they are in. The source of Manslaughter's powers is unknown; possibly he is a mutant.
Makes his limited telepathy even more suspect...his invisibility depends on what angle he's being looked at and the amplitude of the sounds he makes.
Its not suspect at all. Its a low level power. Hes invisible if you dont look at him directly. Im pretty sure you can identify lots of objects even fi you are not looking at them straight on, the fact of the matter is even if you were looking for him you wouldnt even see him at all period.
As for sound as long as he does make loud noises its ok. I can hear the Postman walking at a normal pace when he comes to post letters. At that sound level you wouldnt even hear Mansluaghter at all.
🙄
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Oh wait you're right it says Moondragon estabilished the link...so then he can't create psychic links then? In that case since there's no evidence of him manipulating or shaping thought energy I'd presume he wouldn't be able to access the astral plane.
Well yeah there is as I explained earlier. At any rate I got the impression he can make psychic links with people with mental powers I think he did the samething with Gargoyle who does not have telepathy but does seem to have some sort of mental, mystical powers...but thats just a theory
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He used it to amplify his mind and communicate with Cable and Jean on the Astral Plane...he was communicating with two telepaths I'd hardly say he gained telepathic powers. Cerebra can be used by non-telepaths anyway. eg Kitty Pryde.
*sigh*....that was my point. 😐
I'd like to point out something interesting here. Apocalypse granted Deathverine some sort of telepathic powers among other things (He was able to cut Jean's telepathic link with Scott for example) The tech enhancing Wolverine came from the same source as Apocalypse's. Why couldn't he have some kind of TP if his horseman had?
Now to what degree his TP is, is pretty much what you should be debating.
Originally posted by Alfheim
This doesnt seem logical to me. First of all is it possible to have access to something without having to manipluate it? I was under the impression astral projection at its basic involves just being able to enter the astral plane manipulating doesnt have to come into it.
Apparently yes according to that scan eg Spiderman. His Spider Sense works due to the astral plane yet he cannot manipulate or astrally access that plane. I presume it'd be the same for Destiny and Blindfold.
And how would one access said plane if they didn't have the ability to manipulate their own thought energy?(Their own consciousness/mind?)
Well ok im not being bad but its like im going to have to repeat myself. Is mind reading the only way to shape mental energy? If somebody can makes somebodies mind experience pleasure or pain and make himself invisible isnt that shaping mental energy?
You still not getting it...manipulating the mind DIRECTLY...as opposed to manipulating it INDIRECTLY. A person who psionically manipulates a certain part of the nervous system to induce pleasure, pain or loss of vision is manipulating the mind via secondary means. This individual is manipulating the nervous system via primary means and manipulating the mind via secondary means. (This is similar to Benedict, Vertigo etc..). Heck I can manipulate the mind(cause someone pain) via secondary means too. I can hit someone with a chair...I'm inducing pain via secondary means.
A person who directly manipulates a persons thoughts in order to carry out the same feat is manipulating the mind by primary means and the nervous system via secondary means.(This is a telepath)
That's the main difference between a telepath and a person who just psionically manipulates the nervous system.
I dont get it. Where talking about in order to acces the astral plane you need to be able to shape mental energy and therefore you should at least have some power to affect the mind. How did you then bring Iceman and Storm into this? Both Iceman and Storm may have psionic powers but Storms is related to the weather and Iceman temperature there powers are not directly linked to the mind like Manslaughters.
You need to have at least some power to directly shape and manipulate thought energy.
Vertigo can effect the mind...but via secondary means. Psionic waves...effect nervous system...effect mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertigo_%28Marvel_Comics%29
The bio suggests that Manslaughter manipulates the nervous system. It would be similar to how Storm manipulates the weather and how she's linked to the atmosphere. Manslaughter would psionically manipulate the nervous system just like Storm psionically manipulates the weather. And how Iceman can feel(Is linked) to the water in the atmosphere.
Yeah so thats not part of the mind then?
Note the difference...
1.) Psionically manipulating the nervous system to cause vision/hearing impairment...
as opposed to
2.) Manipulating the mind in order to manipulate the nervous system...
that's where a telepath and manslaughter differ.
And yes the nervous system isn't the mind. The mind is the mind. Telepaths manipulate thought energy to manipulate the nervous system. That bio suggests that Manslaughter does it the other way round. That's a big difference...see Vertigo.
Its not suspect at all. Its a low level power. Hes invisible if you dont look at him directly. Im pretty sure you can identify lots of objects even fi you are not looking at them straight on, the fact of the matter is even if you were looking for him you wouldnt even see him at all period.As for sound as long as he does make loud noises its ok. I can hear the Postman walking at a normal pace when he comes to post letters. At that sound level you wouldnt even hear Mansluaghter at all.
🙄
Eh...that bio suggests that he manipulates the autonomic nervous system in order to effect a persons mind. That's not telepathy...telepathy works the other way around. That's what Benedict does and Vertigo is similar.
That's why he has those limits...if he was a telepath he wouldn't have such limits. His limits = the limits of the autonomous nervous system.
Well yeah there is as I explained earlier. At any rate I got the impression he can make psychic links with people with mental powers I think he did the samething with Gargoyle who does not have telepathy but does seem to have some sort of mental, mystical powers...but thats just a theory
What it comes down to is this. If he can establish mental links on his own...then he should be able to. If he can't then he shouldn't be able to.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Apparently yes according to that scan eg Spiderman. His Spider Sense works due to the astral plane yet he cannot manipulate or astrally access that plane. I presume it'd be the same for Destiny and Blindfold.
I dont care what the scan says im well aware that Spiderman cannot access the astral plane...again im talking about the principle of accessing it. If you have powers that directly effect the mind psionically you should be able to do it.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
And how would one access said plane if they didn't have the ability to manipulate their own thought energy?(Their own consciousness/mind?)
Ok please define thought energy. I was under the impression that psionic energy comes under thought energy this is were the mix-up maybe happening.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You still not getting it...manipulating the mind DIRECTLY...as opposed to manipulating it INDIRECTLY. A person who psionically manipulates a certain part of the [b]nervous system to induce pleasure, pain or loss of vision is manipulating the mind via secondary means. This individual is manipulating the nervous system via primary means and manipulating the mind via secondary means. (This is similar to Benedict, Vertigo etc..). Heck I can manipulate the mind(cause someone pain) via secondary means too. I can hit someone with a chair...I'm inducing pain via secondary means.A person who directly manipulates a persons thoughts in order to carry out the same feat is manipulating the mind by primary means and the nervous system via secondary means.(This is a telepath)
That's the main difference between a telepath and a person who just psionically manipulates the nervous system.
You need to have at least some power to directly shape and manipulate thought energy.
Vertigo can effect the mind...but via secondary means. Psionic waves...effect nervous system...effect mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertigo_%28Marvel_Comics%29The bio suggests that Manslaughter manipulates the nervous system. It would be similar to how Storm manipulates the weather and how she's linked to the atmosphere. Manslaughter would psionically manipulate the nervous system just like Storm psionically manipulates the weather. And how Iceman can feel(Is linked) to the water in the atmosphere.
[/B]
I may not be getting it because maybe you have a different defintion of what thought energy is or yopur logic is flawed.
This is how I define manipulating the mind directly. Telepathy is a pisonic power right? So would it be logical to think that telepaths use psionic energy to manipulate minds? If they do then Manslaughter does the samething but in a less complex manner.
Storm and Iceman maybe able to affect the mind but they would do it indirectly. For example Iceman could freeze somebodies brain but Iceman is using psionic energy to reduce the temperature in order to effect the brain, this is different from using psionic energy to effect the brain directly because you are not using any other methods such as electricity or cold. Giving an example of punching somebody in the head is a terrible example and has no place in this discussion your not even using psionic energy in that example.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Note the difference...1.) Psionically manipulating the nervous system to cause vision/hearing impairment...
as opposed to
2.) Manipulating the mind in order to manipulate the nervous system...
that's where a telepath and manslaughter differ.
And yes the nervous system isn't the mind. The mind is the mind. Telepaths manipulate thought energy to manipulate the nervous system. That bio suggests that Manslaughter does it the other way round. That's a big difference...see Vertigo.
Yes and I can see how were getting our wires crossed. You see manipluating the nervous system as the same as affecting the weather and temperature. The problem I have is this the nervous system is part of the brain. Can a telepath do telepathy on somebody who does not have a brain or who is dead, because if they cant a having a brain is an essential part of being able to do telepathy and as I was saying before telepathy involves using psionic energy to directly affect the mind with no inbetween mediums.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Eh...that bio suggests that he manipulates the autonomic nervous system in order to effect a persons mind. That's not telepathy...telepathy works the other way around. That's what Benedict does and Vertigo is similar.
That's why he has those limits...if he was a telepath he wouldn't have such limits. His limits = the limits of the autonomous nervous system.What it comes down to is this. If he can establish mental links on his own...then he should be able to. If he can't then he shouldn't be able to.
Well define thought energy and explain if telepaths can do telepathy on people without brains.
Originally posted by Alfheim
[B]I dont care what the scan says im well aware that Spiderman cannot access the astral plane...again im talking about the principle of accessing it. If you have powers that directly effect the mind psionically you should be able to do it.
Which is exactly my point. A person who manipulates the nervous system does not manipulate the mind directly. They manipulate it indirectly. They don't manipulate the mind itself they manipulates the nervous system which in turn manipulates the mind.
I may not be getting it because maybe you have a different defintion of what thought energy is or yopur logic is flawed.This is how I define manipulating the mind directly. Telepathy is a pisonic power right? So would it be logical to think that telepaths use psionic energy to manipulate minds? If they do then Manslaughter does the samething but in a less complex manner.
Storms power is also a psionic power. So nope.
Ok please define thought energy. I was under the impression that psionic energy comes under thought energy this is were the mix-up maybe happening.
It's not exactly the same thing, psionic energy has been considered many things: Electromagnetic Energy, Life Energy, Thought Energy...but it's utilized in many different ways. Storm psionically manipulates the weather...Manslaughter psionically manipulates the nervous system. Telepaths can shape psionic energy to form mind blasts. Non-telepathic Telekinetics can also shape psionic energy.
Telepaths are like satellite broadcasters and receivers. The communication between telepathy can occur between light years and there's no lag.
Psionic Energy only works at the speed of light. So there's a difference between in shaping psionic energy and communicating via telepathy.
Storm and Iceman maybe able to affect the mind but they would do it indirectly. For example Iceman could freeze somebodies brain but Iceman is using psionic energy to reduce the temperature in order to effect the brain, this is different from using psionic energy to effect the brain directly because you are not using any other methods such as electricity or cold. Giving an example of punching somebody in the head is a terrible example and has no place in this discussion your not even using psionic energy in that example.
The mind and the brain are two separate things in the MU. The brain is physical the mind is not.
Telepaths effect the non-physical mind to effect the physical body. A person who manipulates the nervous system effects the physical brain which in turn effects the mind. Which is why it is similar to my example. Magneto can also effect the physical nervous system. So can Benedict Kine who also psionically manipulates the nervous system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Kine
Yes and I can see how were getting our wires crossed. You see manipluating the nervous system as the same as affecting the weather and temperature. The problem I have is this the nervous system is part of the brain. Can a telepath do telepathy on somebody who does not have a brain or who is dead, because if they cant a having a brain is an essential part of being able to do telepathy and as I was saying before telepathy involves using psionic energy to directly affect the mind with no inbetween mediums.
There's no mind or spirit on a person who's dead. However telepathy has worked on beings who have no brains but have minds. And it has also worked on beings who have no physical bodies yet have minds.
It should also be noted that Rockslide and Iceman don't have brains or nervous systems when they lose they're bodies but they do have minds. (Like Malice)
Mind and Brain are two separate things. One's physical the other isn't.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Which is exactly my point. A person who manipulates the nervous system does not manipulate the mind directly. They manipulate it indirectly. They don't manipulate the mind itself they manipulates the nervous system which in turn manipulates the mind.Storms power is also a psionic power. So nope.
It's not exactly the same thing, psionic energy has been considered many things: Electromagnetic Energy, Life Energy, Thought Energy...but it's utilized in many different ways. Storm psionically manipulates the weather...Manslaughter psionically manipulates the nervous system. Telepaths can shape psionic energy to form mind blasts. Non-telepathic Telekinetics can also shape psionic energy.
Telepaths are like satellite broadcasters and receivers. The communication between telepathy can occur between light years and there's no lag.
Psionic Energy only works at the speed of light. So there's a difference between in shaping psionic energy and communicating via telepathy.The mind and the brain are two separate things in the MU. The brain is physical the mind is not.
Telepaths effect the non-physical mind to effect the physical body. A person who manipulates the nervous system effects the physical brain which in turn effects the mind. Which is why it is similar to my example. Magneto can also effect the physical nervous system. So can Benedict Kine who also psionically manipulates the nervous system.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Kine
There's no mind or spirit on a person who's dead. However telepathy has worked on beings who have no brains but have minds. And it has also worked on beings who have no physical bodies yet have minds.
It should also be noted that Rockslide and Iceman don't have brains or nervous systems when they lose they're bodies but they do have minds. (Like Malice)
Mind and Brain are two separate things. One's physical the other isn't.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/manslaughterdef.htm
Well anyway this bio states that he used his powers to find Interloper. So that implies he can make psyhic links.
Manslaughter grew up on the streets in poverty. At some point, he used his latent psychic abilities to track down the Eternal, Interloper, in the Siberian wilderness, and learned fighting skills from him.
Originally posted by Alfheim
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/manslaughterdef.htmWell anyway this bio states that he used his powers to find Interloper. So that implies he can make psyhic links.
[B]Manslaughter grew up on the streets in poverty. At some point, he used his latent psychic abilities to track down the Eternal, Interloper, in the Siberian wilderness, and learned fighting skills from him.
[/B]
What it comes down to is this. If he can establish mental links on his own...then he should be able to. If he can't then he shouldn't be able to.
You basically answered your own question.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You basically answered your own question.
Are you trying to be a smartass? Your the one who said that making psyhic links could possibly give you access to the astral plane.
Now...I cant remember exactly where I said that but from what I can remember I made that quote based on the information you gave me. So im answering your question as well.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
However that Bio above...says he can form psychic links with people...and that he projected emotions into Moondragons mind so I presume that he can manipulate thoughts.
Anyway im not finished and I have other point to make...possibly this is getting a nbit long.
Furthermore im pretty damn sure that you could transfer emotions and thougs not telepathically. Havent peoples brain patterns been given to other people through technological means? So even then its not that clear cut.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Which is exactly my point. A person who manipulates the nervous system does not manipulate the mind directly. They manipulate it indirectly. They don't manipulate the mind itself they manipulates the nervous system which in turn manipulates the mind.Storms power is also a psionic power. So nope.
It's not exactly the same thing, psionic energy has been considered many things: Electromagnetic Energy, Life Energy, Thought Energy...but it's utilized in many different ways. Storm psionically manipulates the weather...Manslaughter psionically manipulates the nervous system. Telepaths can shape psionic energy to form mind blasts. Non-telepathic Telekinetics can also shape psionic energy.
Telepaths are like satellite broadcasters and receivers. The communication between telepathy can occur between light years and there's no lag.
Psionic Energy only works at the speed of light. So there's a difference between in shaping psionic energy and communicating via telepathy.The mind and the brain are two separate things in the MU. The brain is physical the mind is not.
Telepaths effect the non-physical mind to effect the physical body. A person who manipulates the nervous system effects the physical brain which in turn effects the mind. Which is why it is similar to my example. Magneto can also effect the physical nervous system. So can Benedict Kine who also psionically manipulates the nervous system.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Kine
There's no mind or spirit on a person who's dead. However telepathy has worked on beings who have no brains but have minds. And it has also worked on beings who have no physical bodies yet have minds.
It should also be noted that Rockslide and Iceman don't have brains or nervous systems when they lose they're bodies but they do have minds. (Like Malice)
Mind and Brain are two separate things. One's physical the other isn't.
Ok that all seems logical.