I think Exar wins. My brother convinced me that Vaapad as making him better against Darksider's in a lightsaber fight. In the ROTS novelization when it talked about the special benefits it gave Mace against Sidious it seemed to be talking about just benefits in the Force such as Mace being able to stand there and send Sidious' Lightning back in his face. This means Exar's amulets might not do him a lot of good, but I think he is skilled enough to beat Mace using saber skills alone. That's my two cents at least. 😎
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
While Kun is among maybe the top 5 duelists of all time, Mace Windu is the deadliest lightsaber opponent against dark side users. His shatterpoint and Vaapad will be the difference, so he wins.
I doubt it can be done that easily.
Both opponents are using lightsaber styles that the other one is unfamiliar with. Mace developed his own (Vaapad) and so did Kun (a style that died with him). But Kun has the advantage of the double-bladed lightsaber, a weapon Mace technically is completely unfamiliar with. To quote Kas'im from "Path of Destruction":
"In combat, your mind tries to keep track of each blade separately, effectively doubling the number of possibilities. But the two blades are connected: by knowing the location of one, you are automatically aware of the location of the other. In actual practice, the double-bladed lightsaber is more limited than the traditional lightsaber. It can do more damage, but it is less precise. It requires longer, sweeping movements that don't transition well into a quick stab or thrust. Because the weapon is difficult to master, however, few among the Jedi-or even the Sith-understand it. They don't know how to attack or defend effectively against it. That gives those of us who use it an advantage over most of our opponents."
That might give Kun a slight advantage in a sheer lightsaber duel.
For that "Vaapad VS Dark Side" thing. Going by the description in the RotS novel Mace Windu's mindset just leads to the result that Dark Side energies which should technically affect him would be thrown back at the one who was exerting them (in this case Sidious) creating a loop of energy between the opponents. While that's quite useful I doubt that it would grant Mace the victory against Kun.
For the "Shatterpoint" ability. This is another very nice ability but actually it requires that there is a useable Shatterpoint for Mace. There is a scene in the novel "Shatterpoint" where Mace is attacked in an ally, uses the ability, but isn't capable of finding a Shatterpoint that would allow him to escape from that situation. Going by this the ability might only work properly if there is a weakness in Kun's defence which I pretty much doubt.
And there are two things not taken into consideration so far:
a) Kun has his amulets which might be able to hit Mace pretty hard and he has by far superior offensive force abilities going by the things he demonstrated so far.
b) Going by KotoR and the SWRPG Kun most likely wears an armour featuring cortosis weave. So even if Mace hits him in a lightsaber duel that might just result in Mace's lightsaber being disabled while Kun would still stand relatively unharmed.
So I really don't know if Mace would be able to take Kun down in an all out fight although he definetly has a good chance to do so.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I doubt it can be done that easily.Both opponents are using lightsaber styles that the other one is unfamiliar with. Mace developed his own (Vaapad) and so did Kun (a style that died with him). But Kun has the advantage of the double-bladed lightsaber, a weapon Mace technically is completely unfamiliar with. To quote Kas'im from "Path of Destruction":
"In combat, your mind tries to keep track of each blade separately, effectively doubling the number of possibilities. But the two blades are connected: by knowing the location of one, you are automatically aware of the location of the other. In actual practice, the double-bladed lightsaber is more limited than the traditional lightsaber. It can do more damage, but it is less precise. It requires longer, sweeping movements that don't transition well into a quick stab or thrust. Because the weapon is difficult to master, however, few among the Jedi-or even the Sith-understand it. They don't know how to attack or defend effectively against it. That gives those of us who use it an advantage over most of our opponents."
That might give Kun a slight advantage in a sheer lightsaber duel.
For that "Vaapad VS Dark Side" thing. Going by the description in the RotS novel Mace Windu's mindset just leads to the result that Dark Side energies which should technically affect him would be thrown back at the one who was exerting them (in this case Sidious) creating a loop of energy between the opponents. While that's quite useful I doubt that it would grant Mace the victory against Kun.
For the "Shatterpoint" ability. This is another very nice ability but actually it requires that there is a useable Shatterpoint for Mace. There is a scene in the novel "Shatterpoint" where Mace is attacked in an ally, uses the ability, but isn't capable of finding a Shatterpoint that would allow him to escape from that situation. Going by this the ability might only work properly if there is a weakness in Kun's defence which I pretty much doubt.
And there are two things not taken into consideration so far:
a) Kun has his amulets which might be able to hit Mace pretty hard and he has by far superior offensive force abilities going by the things he demonstrated so far.
b) Going by KotoR and the SWRPG Kun most likely wears an armour featuring cortosis weave. So even if Mace hits him in a lightsaber duel that might just result in Mace's lightsaber being disabled while Kun would still stand relatively unharmed.So I really don't know if Mace would be able to take Kun down in an all out fight although he definetly has a good chance to do so.
Nai, I was only referring to pure lightsaber combat. I don't think Mace stands a chance in the force or an all out fight. However if his Vaapad and his shatterpoint were good enough for Sidious, they should be good enough to beat Kun.
I don't think that is good to be used in a debate. I mean, if he was that powerful, and could defeat an army of droids all by himself, why didn't he destroy all the droids in the Arena by himself?
However, I do believe Mace can defeat Kun. They both are in the top 10 Jedi/Sith no doubt, but Mace's Vapaad and Shatterpoint give him the edge in saber combat. I mean, if he was able to defeat Sidious, he certainly will be able to defeat Kun.
Oh my god.
Since when are people using those A>B>C arguments again ?
Because Mace > Sidious and Sidious (most likely) > Kun it doesn't mean that Mace > Kun. That doesn't add up.
Nowhere is it mentioned that Sidious was the most powerful duellist that ever emerged from the lines of the Sith Lords. He's "just" the "most powerful" Sith Lord. We all know that Maul almost managed to kill him. So I don't see why Kun, the inventor of Maul's weapon and the corresponding fighting style, shouldn't be able to do the same.
Really. Sidious doesn't seems to be the guy who focused much on lightsaber to lightsaber combat training unlike people like Mace, Dooku or Maul himself. His own master, if we can thrust Sidious words, was more the type of guy who did search for knowledge. Sidious himself also seems to be more in the knowledge department and he's quite known for avoiding direct confrontation. I guess he also had a reason to kill his master while Plagueis was asleep instead of challenging him in a duel.
I don't want to say that Sidious somehow sucks in terms of lightsaber combat, which would be rather stupid. But Kun seems to be far more into direct confrontation in comparison to Sidious. And because of that he might be a better duellist. So I still don't see Mace Windu "certainly" defeating him, even with Vaapad and his Shatterpoint ability.
Originally posted by BorbaradNowhere is it mentioned that Sidious was the most powerful duellist that ever emerged from the lines of the Sith Lords. He's "just" the "most powerful" Sith Lord. We all know that Maul almost managed to kill him. So I don't see why Kun, the inventor of Maul's weapon and the corresponding fighting style, shouldn't be able to do the same.
I don't understand how Kun would benefit from having invented the style. While he may have been a prodigious talent with a blade, Maul would benefit from the weapon having been in use for over a millennium, over time I can only see improvements and refinements being made to the style itself so by the time it got around to Maul, he'd have a much better start.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Really. Sidious doesn't seems to be the guy who focused much on lightsaber to lightsaber combat training unlike people like Mace, Dooku or Maul himself. His own master, if we can thrust Sidious words, was more the type of guy who did search for knowledge. Sidious himself also seems to be more in the knowledge department and he's quite known for avoiding direct confrontation. I guess he also had a reason to kill his master while Plagueis was asleep instead of challenging him in a duel.I don't want to say that Sidious somehow sucks in terms of lightsaber combat, which would be rather stupid. But Kun seems to be far more into direct confrontation in comparison to Sidious. And because of that he might be a better duellist. So I still don't see Mace Windu "certainly" defeating him, even with Vaapad and his Shatterpoint ability.
I'm gonna have to check with Lightsnake on this one, but I'm pretty sure that they out and out state Sid's supremacy in bladed combat, the line was something like "master of every form, every weapon", I'll ask him the next time he's on.
Anyway, in terms of Mace vs. Kun, while I agree that generally agree that an ABC argument is flawed, it's a different case when the "B" in this case if F****ing sidious. Kun, who is 2 or 3 (at least) levels farther down on the food chain of sith lords then won't be a greater challenge (at least in terms of saber combat, still don't know where I stand on those amulets)
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my god.Since when are people using those A>B>C arguments again ?
Because Mace > Sidious and Sidious (most likely) > Kun it doesn't mean that Mace > Kun. That doesn't add up.
Nowhere is it mentioned that Sidious was the most powerful duellist that ever emerged from the lines of the Sith Lords. He's "just" the "most powerful" Sith Lord. We all know that Maul almost managed to kill him. So I don't see why Kun, the inventor of Maul's weapon and the corresponding fighting style, shouldn't be able to do the same.
Really. Sidious doesn't seems to be the guy who focused much on lightsaber to lightsaber combat training unlike people like Mace, Dooku or Maul himself. His own master, if we can thrust Sidious words, was more the type of guy who did search for knowledge. Sidious himself also seems to be more in the knowledge department and he's quite known for avoiding direct confrontation. I guess he also had a reason to kill his master while Plagueis was asleep instead of challenging him in a duel.
I don't want to say that Sidious somehow sucks in terms of lightsaber combat, which would be rather stupid. But Kun seems to be far more into direct confrontation in comparison to Sidious. And because of that he might be a better duellist. So I still don't see Mace Windu "certainly" defeating him, even with Vaapad and his Shatterpoint ability.
Just because he avoided duels, doesn't mean his dueling prowess aren't uber, he was a coward, he knows that duels, especially lightsaber ones, are very risky, there is a chance he could get killed, but when forced to fight, his desire to live, just to survive is the greatest in the SW universe, he uses every trick, just to stay alive, i think you are underestimating him and if this is DE Sidious, he pwns him in both the Force and Saber combat.