Exar Kun versus Mace Windu

Oh...Maul wasn't among the elite duelists of the SW mythos ? Nice to know that.

That depends on your standards for 'elite duelists'. Take into account that the three schmucks who went with Mace to fight Palpatine have been officially established as "some of the best bladesbeings the Order had ever produced". They are, then, among "the elite duelists". But among the very best? No.

And Bastila was a Padawan and, going by this, most likely not a master of a certain lightsaber style. They were both certainly skilled enough to give some of the most powerful beings in their respective times some trouble.

This is true, but nowhere does it say that those who use the double-bladed lightsaber equate to "leet duelists".

And there is also no reason to believe something different. Let's look at Mace "advantages".

No reason to believe something different? Hardly, Nai. The advantage of using a technique unfamiliar to one's opponent doesn't register to the undeniable proficiency Vaapad and Shatterpoint allows for. You've yet to prove otherwise.

Yes. The deadliest of the seven forms known to the PT era Jedi which wouldn't include Kun's style. Hence you can't draw the conclusion that Vaapad is superior to Kun's unique lightsaber style from that statement.

The deadliest of the seven forms taught in "the prime of the Jedi". Yes, I'd say that that - at the very least - puts it on equal footing with Kun's form.

They both were extremely skilled lightsaber wielders and they certainly both were deadly. Both of them were equipped with knowledge (if not mastery) of several lightsaber combat forms. So how do you want to determine who's lightsaber style (being the respective own invention of one of them) is the better ?

One is a form tailor-made for fighting Dark Jedi and Sith Lords, negating any potential combat advantages that they might possess coupled with a powerful ability to detect weaknesses and flaws in people and techniques and is near-impossible to master, thus making it rare. The other form? Is... ah... err... rare.

Hardly evens out, Nai.

Once more: Since when does "more powerful" mean "better combatant" ? That premise has already been proven wrong multiple times and the fight between Mace and Sidious would be one instance for that. Another example would be Mara Jade vs Jacen or Bane vs Kas'im. The most powerful force user isn't the 100 % winner.

If Mace's usage of Vaapad and detection of Shatterpoints is effective against Sidious - who is proven to be more powerful than Kun - then is it not both pitifully obvious and highly logical that it will also work on the weaker opponent? Kun isn't perfect. He isn't without flaws and thus his form is flawed as well. Meaning that it does indeed have weaknesses that Mace can exploit.

And aside of that: That "weakness" of Sidious if we go by the RotS novel was Anakin who was moving right into the room and it's even stated that Mace disarmed Sidious because the Sith Lord had to focus on the slippery ground (standing outside in the rain).

That detection allowed Mace to withstand and observe Palpatine's weakness during the Force battle. According to the novelization, Palpatine's fear made him hesitate and turn some of his Force-powered speed into a grip on the permacrete.

If you want to go by the movie I just see the superior swordsmen disarming the inferior.

How very flawed.

If we were to take that to heart, Nai, without delving deeper, you've just acknowledged that Anakin > Dooku since he pwned him and killed him [irregardless of the fact that it's already been proven].

And now ?

Except that that isn't the case. Mace is established to be an unnaturally offensive duelist, and Palpatine controlled the initial part of the fight, and butchered Kit Fisto while crossing blades with Mace. If we took the entire spectrum into consideration, Palpatine began the fight stronger than Mace [which makes sense, since Mace was unable to own him or beat him despite outnumbering him with "three of the Order's finest"]. Yet, as the novelization indicates, once he sinks into Vaapad, it negates Palpatine's advantage, and allows them to fight on even terms.

Neither Vaapad nor the Shatterpoint ability grant Mace the instant victory in a lightsaber fight. In fact we've seen the Shatterpoint ability failing and we also know that despite of using Vaapad Mace wasn't able to outduel Dooku when Dooku was a member of the Jedi Order, meaning that those style also doesn't mean guaranteed victory. As long as you don't want to say that creating a loop of Dark Side energy between the two combatants would lead to Kun's certain demise.

Dooku wasn't a Sith Lord at the time that he and Mace dueled, and as previously indicated, he didn't complete Vaapad at the time. The style works best against dark siders.

Oh god, say a bad thing about your pony tailed boyfriend and its on! huh.

Coming back with the same crap again, Styles ? You're never going to understand what you read, correct ? Kun says that he has almost completed his lightsaber training. Vodo then decides to test it with the result that Kun defeats Crado, Sylvar and finally Vodo himself. Right after this Vodo says that Kun is the "most formidable student" he ever trained clearly refering to nothing else but Kun's lightsaber skills. So being the best lightsaber wielder a 600 year old Jedi Master who dedicated his life to training Jedi on two different planets (Dantooine and Ossus) has ever had doesn't make Kun something special ? Right.

So wait, because Kun beat up a couple of scrubs that makes him: "special". Crado who has shown to be absolutely pathetic, Syvlar anther scrub and finally Vodo a bum crab who's never shown to be ANYTHING worth note with a saber.

And I've said this before and you never answer: pray tell who the f*ck Vodo has trained. How would any of these people Vodo has trained stack up against anyone else? Oh thats right you can't prove it.

Count Dooku is called in the ROTS novel to be one of the most respected and powerful Jedi EVER and even better as a Sith (this being said by the omniscient narrator not some crab) and yet Mace Windu whooped his master who Dooku shits his pants thinking about fighting and in their second encounter he pushed Dooku back to the point that he needed to retreat and Magna Guards to help him. If you wanna play the quote game Mace wins that, So big whoop some old pathetic crab has an orgasm over him.

Can you please stuff that stupid bullshit to the place it belongs ?

Only when you get Kuns nut out your eyes, its blinding you to the facts.

Wow. Just wow. How can Nomi Sunrider wield a lightsaber like a master when picking the weapon up for the first time ?

She can't.

First off where the hell is that said? I didn't see it in the KOTOR narration, or in the POTJ sourcebook, I see that thrown around so much on these forums with no source.

One might suggest that Kun did build (!) that weapon for a reason and Advent has already provided proof that with that weapon and his unique style he was better than during the time he dueled Ulic.

The same Advent who proved Kun wasn't worth a shit in lightsaber dueling and would get skull f*cked two ways to Sunday in a saber duel with Anakin, the same Advent who pissed on your shitty little "Kun is teh bestest!" crap. Really dude I wouldn't reference her if I were you. But I'm not you cause I'm not a completely retarded fanboy.

And in that time he was already better with the saber than at the day Vodo told him he was the most formidable lightsaber duelist he had ever trained. So what ?

Exactly, so what. So what, who in the hell has this old crab trained? Please tell me, oh thats right...you can't. He could have been given all the shitty students with problems much like Dark Woman was and considering he got 3 students who all at some point came under the control of the dark side suggest this. Why didn't he get "Mr. Prodigy" Ulic Qel Droma? Till you can tell me who he trained and show their skill with a saber, I'd suggest you: Shut the f*ck up.

What was it you didn't get about "unique fighting style" ? How many people have you seen wielding a double-bladed lightsaber one-handed ? Maul ? Nope ! Shado Vao ? Ah yes. But despite of your claims his blade is far from being "regular size"
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=646&page=121
And how should he use the same style that Kun did use ? Kun has invented the style and taught it to nobody. With his dead those style was lost to the Galaxy.

What is this style, what makes it so damn powerful, what makes it so dangerous? Logically he can't do much more then Shado Vao can with his saber, regardless of the size of the hilt, and in that same breath Shado Vao has unique style that no one else in the galaxy ever does and yet Darth Talon who uses a single hilt can still keep up, again Shado Vao has shown more skill then Kun ever did, the point being his (Kuns) style or suze of his saber hilt doesn't really make a huge difference, especially if he's only been playing with the thing for a few months.

And AGAIN, who gives a shit: as I said he had about few months AT BEST to come up with this "unique" style and your seriously expecting us to believe it was perfected? That it would be on the same level and compete with a guy who trained day in and day out for what 50 years. For a guy who unlike Kun, has MASTERED multiple styles. And Mastered his own new style. Come on even your not that dumb...oh wait...

Wow. Again the same crap you came up with some weeks ago. Watch Luke in ROTJ. Watch Mace fighting in ROTS. Lmao. If that's the great Jedi skill and speed I'll rather bet on Kun trashing Mace "Old Man" Windu.

And I'll take that over a few the whole 5 panels we see Kun dueling with the amazing and awe inspiring "speed lines!"

I did you favor and deleted your sad attempt to be funny. But I like how you ignored the actual argument in favor of an sad little insult: Way to go Nai!

And Styles, Kun defeating his master as a padawan,

Hasn't Advent already pissed on this argument? Who in the blue hell is Vodo? He is an old bum who's only calling card in dueling is his experience. Other then that he sucks. Unless your going to show me some on panel evidence of his "skillz" or a quote of his amazing dueling progress.

being in a league of his own,

In the force anyone...and the quote only accounts for: Dark Siders not the other thousands of Jedi running around the galaxy.

creating his own saber

So being a mechanic makes him a leet saber fighter? I guess Delilah Blue who can fix anything with a hydrospinner can piss on DN Luke.

and style,

Which accounted to what: Banging up and down on a stick? Or the whole 6 months he had to create and train with it, and the uber powerful foes he had to train with 🙄

all put him among the greatest ever.

Somehow...I don't see it.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Oh god, say a bad thing about your pony tailed boyfriend and its on! huh.

So wait, because Kun beat up a couple of scrubs that makes him: "special". Crado who has shown to be absolutely pathetic, Syvlar anther scrub and finally Vodo a bum crab who's never shown to be ANYTHING worth note with a saber.

Count Dooku is called in the ROTS novel to be one of the most respected and powerful Jedi EVER and even better as a Sith (this being said by the omniscient narrator not some crab) and yet Mace Windu whooped his master who Dooku shits his pants thinking about fighting and in their second encounter he pushed Dooku back to the point that he needed to retreat and Magna Guards to help him. If you wanna play the quote game Mace wins that, So big whoop some old pathetic crab has an orgasm over him.

Only when you get Kuns nut out your eyes, its blinding you to the facts.

The same Advent who proved Kun wasn't worth a shit in lightsaber dueling and would get skull f*cked two ways to Sunday in a saber duel with Anakin, the same Advent who pissed on your shitty little "Kun is teh bestest!" crap. Really dude I wouldn't reference her if I were you. But I'm not you cause I'm not a completely retarded fanboy.

Exactly, so what. So what, who in the hell has this old crab trained? Please tell me, oh thats right...you can't. He could have been given all the shitty students with problems much like Dark Woman was and considering he got 3 students who all at some point came under the control of the dark side suggest this. Why didn't he get "Mr. Prodigy" Ulic Qel Droma? Till you can tell me who he trained and show their skill with a saber, I'd suggest you: Shut the f*ck up.

What is this style, what makes it so damn powerful, what makes it so dangerous? Logically he can't do much more then Shado Vao can with his saber, regardless of the size of the hilt, and in that same breath Shado Vao has unique style that no one else in the galaxy ever does and yet Darth Talon who uses a single hilt can still keep up, again Shado Vao has shown more skill then Kun ever did, the point being his (Kuns) style or suze of his saber hilt doesn't really make a huge difference, especially if he's only been playing with the thing for a few months.

And I'll take that over a few the whole 5 panels we see Kun dueling with the amazing and awe inspiring "speed lines!"

Mace may be the better fighter as I'll admit, but he doesn't come close to Kun's force abilities.

This argument is based on a false premise. You're assuming Sidious>Dooku in saber combat, which may or may not be the case. I feel Dooku>Sidious, so there's no point in that argument.

There would be no "no point" in that argument if your assessment of Dooku's lightsaber skills in comparison to Palpatine's own was correct. That has yet to be proven. In fact, I'd like to see it proven.

Count Dooku wasn't able to defeat or outduel a distracted, emotionally conflicted Yoda on a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force, where his powers would be at their apex, and Yoda's would likely be stifled.

...And you're saying that Darth "I-Haven't-Dueled-In-Thirteen-Years-And-Managed-To-Pwn-Three-Of-The-Order's-Finest-In-Seconds" Sidious is weaker than that?

In fact, let's analyze that scenario: Palpatine was outnumbered, four to one. All four of his opponents were heralded as among the finest in the Order's history and boasted a lifetime of rigorous training and sparring coupled with three years of active war duty.

What about Palpatine? He... ah... plotted and manipulated for thirteen years, had his lightsaber buried in a statue, and admittedly did not spar with Dooku [LoE].

Yet he pwned three of 'em in less than half a minute whilst going blade-to-blade with Windu himself, and then forcing Mace on the defensive.

Now, analyze the other situation: He was confronted by Yoda in his office and gave him one hell of a duel with a lightsaber. This isn't a half-distracted or emotionally torn Yoda, either. It's a Yoda who is hellbent on skull****ing Sidious and pissing on his robed, dead corpse.

If Dooku > Sidious in swordsmanship, that would imply that Yoda is quite a ways above Sidious in swordsmanship (which wasn't the case) and would also mean that Yoda is superior to Sidious instead of his equal (which you've preached prior).

...Yet, as we've seen, Yoda isn't superior to Sidious. He's equal. Which means that Sidious > Dooku.

Yes what a way to diminish a character. "Well if the people he beat up suck, he MUST suck". Again, unlike Mace, Kun was in a league of his own.

No but if the people he beat suck then its not a real noteworthy feat, Revan can beat random Dark Jedi #6, but who gives a shit because of the fact that they're "Random Dark Jedi #6" its the same situation. Kun was in a league of his own in Dark power yeah I'll admit that, but Mace lived in a time where the Chosen one was running around, Yoda the most devastatingly powerful foe the dark has ever known lived, Sidious the most powerful Sith Lord ever, Dooku one of the most powerful Jedi in its existence, Anoon who had better saber skills then Yoda ect ect you get my drift here?

This argument is based on a false premise. You're assuming Sidious>Dooku in saber combat, which may or may not be the case. I feel Dooku>Sidious, so there's no point in that argument.

No I'm assuming Mace in saber combat could beat both of them.

I remember this argument and I don't remember anything about Anakin shit kicking anyone. Advent made a very good case for Anakin but in no way does that mean Anakin>Kun.

No one successfully refuted it so why reiterate dead and beaten points in debate?

Size of the hilt,

Big whoop. Yoda has a shorter hilt, Vao has a complete unique style and yet no one is completely confused an bewildered by them in a duel as people are claiming Mace will be.

saber prodigy,

Ah no.

random intensity of both blades,

Then I guess that makes Corran Horn a absolute monster in saber combat too, tell me what exactly random intensities would do? Especially against a foe who keeps his saber at the max intensity.

etc. And no Vao has not shown more skill than Kun.

Um yeah he has, in his one showing in Legacy 6 and 7 its more then Kun has ever done along with the quote in Legacy 0 saying he's yet to find a match with his saber.

I love how you're calling someone a fanboy when you're cleary anti character X.

Except he is. I'm only Anti Kun because of all this garbage that gets spewed about him on here, and how he's such a god when he hasn't shown shit, Except being labeled a master swordsman (I'm waiting for someone to quantify this) beating up an old crab and creating a saber with a style he had a whole 6 months MAX to train with...this guy is a lightsaber beast? Please.

Mace may be the better fighter as I'll admit, but he doesn't come close to Kun's force abilities.

And I never said he did.

Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]"Firmly canonized". What a statement, Lightsnake. Are you ever listening to yourself ? Purge doesn't canonize them it just shows one Jedi looking like one of the brutes wielding a dual-blade. That's it. No mention of "Jedi Brutes".

So what ? Do you want me to assume that Sidious, who didn't have a lightsaber in hand for more than a decade, is on par with / above Kun when it comes to sheer bladework ? I hope you don't. Because that wouldn't make any sense.

Sidious was using the Dark Side to keep up with a younger opponent who had more skill in the lightsaber department than himself. Kun, for all we know, wouldn't need to resort to something like that. The usual force use in combat (speed / strength enchantment) can be done without touching the Dark Side and both are basic abilities.

Are we going to assume that there's even a single Shatterpoint in any situation ? I hope not because that would be a wrong premise since Mace had already faced situations where his Shatterpoint ability was useless.

Yes, they can change and the ability shows him the most readily available but first there is to need to have even one and if none is there it again takes Mace usual skills to change the situation in a way that a exploitable Shatterpoint is created.

Yeah. Let's do the good old comparison of apples to oranges again. Not only did Vader train Kharys he was vastly superior to her with the lightsaber and the force considering the fact that pre-ESB Luke did kill her in lightsaber combat. Really. Totally compareable to Kun VS Mace.

Oh. Trying to look smart, Lightsnake ? And you're trying that with me. Dumb mistake.

Of course everything can be reduced to a negative form. But in this case you're simply stating that a Jedi can dodge or block that beams without proof

and instead of presenting some proof you simply come up with asking for proof that those beams are "unblockable". Nobody did ever claim that they are unblockable. The thing is that Jedi have been shown to fall to less destructive blaster bolts (block ?)
which don't even come remotely close to the size of that beams (dodge ?). There is a reason they put their lightsabers in the way of blaster shots, Lightsnake and still get gunned down if they aren't fast enough.

And i this case, just to show you how rediculous that is, you are pretty much assuming that Mace will jump out of the way before Kun hits him. First mistake: Mace doesn't even know what that amulet does

so why shall he jump out of the way. Second mistake: Even if he know what the amulet does he has to react on Kun's movement to use that amulet and he might be as fast as possible.

Stating that he's faster than an energy beam would be a little bit of a stretch.

I guess that makes the "dodging" scenario rather unlikely. Third mistake: Let's assume that Mace takes the more likely road and tries to block that beams. How ? I fail to see how a lightsaber will stop that energy and going by the sheer destructive power of the beams and the fact that Mace was hardly able to defend himself against Sidious force lightning (and that also required his lightsaber) I doubt that blocking them is an option.

The blast he fires to kill the Sithwyrm is actually almost as big as the wyrms mouth. Just to give you an idea:
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=095
Small room, Lightsnake, is a description that actually fits.

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=104
Yeah. Telling somebody that you have enough off him and then raise your new found weapon is not enough of a warning.

[
No. Crossing the rather huge distance between your victim and yourself (have a look at the third frame) also doesn't give enough time to react because...aww...well...because you're so fast ?

You know that I was still refering to speed and not talking about Kun hammering his amulet into Mace's body ?

And that tells you what ? That they all are pretty fast ? Thanks. That was exactly what I told you.

That's wonderful, Lightsnake. May I remind you of your original statement saying that "Mace did at least display his speed visually". So did Kun.

And notice how Ulic has still killed the next two Naddist before the first one he killed did even hit the ground.

And if you take a look at the page before that you would see that it were five Naddist which somebody had to kill because after the fight Ulic was the last man standing and actually that lightsaber-after-images show another two "hits" (similar to that explosion like contact marks you see where Ulic was hitting the other three Naddists).

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=051
And he can also move his lightsaber into his hand, ignite it and kill somebody who holds a blaster right into his face before his opponent can pull the trigger, than move to the other before he can take a shot and kill him also. You were saying ?

I guess you can't argue the picture above in the same way.

This is getting boring, Lightsnake. That the Republic was in his height doesn't mean that the number of Senate members also was. Wrong premise, Lightsnake. Go figure. In fact they increased the number of worlds while, through the reformations, they decreased the number of Senators going from one Senator per planet over one per system and one per 50 systems to one senator for a sector (about 1,000 inhabited planets). More or less.

What do I trust? That canon means what canon says or someone who can't accept that maybe the pony tailed God just isn't as impressive as originally thought.

In a democracy I don't see a problem for "the public" entering a trial of a known war criminal. Do you ? And "the public" ?

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=055
You did notice that Nomi and Cay were running to a nice crowd and did arrive in the Senate just in time when the audition started ? Not to mention that the hall seems to be compareable in size to a football stadium and is completely filled. By just 3,000 people ? Right, Lightsnake.

And clearly there are more people present at Ulic's audition. And you might also tell me why some source claim that up to 50,000 people

would have been able to comfortably fit into that building. 3,000 does simply not match the sheer dimensions of the building which ranks were filled during Ulic's trial. [/B]

Originally posted by Borbarad
Kun did fry Gantoris from the inside out which you obviously have mistaken as Kun using force lightning. Which Mace can't block bare-handed for all we know. And please...every defence Yoda did show Luke against force attacks failed against Kun's attack. I doubt that Yoda sent Luke out to confront the Emperor without knowledge on how to deflect force attacks and I also doubt that Luke learned nothing in the 7 years between ROTJ and the JA trilogy.

As you've still not mentioned any demonstrations of power and skill that put Mace above Kun I don't see your point.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No but if the people he beat suck then its not a real noteworthy feat, Revan can beat random Dark Jedi #6, but who gives a shit because of the fact that they're "Random Dark Jedi #6" its the same situation. Kun was in a league of his own in Dark power yeah I'll admit that, but Mace lived in a time where the Chosen one was running around, Yoda the most devastatingly powerful foe the dark has ever known lived, Sidious the most powerful Sith Lord ever, Dooku one of the most powerful Jedi in its existence, Anoon who had better saber skills then Yoda ect ect you get my drift here?

No I'm assuming Mace in saber combat could beat both of them.

No one successfully refuted it so why reiterate dead and beaten points in debate?

Big whoop. Yoda has a shorter hilt, Vao has a complete unique style and yet no one is completely confused an bewildered by them in a duel as people are claiming Mace will be.

Then I guess that makes Corran Horn a absolute monster in saber combat too, tell me what exactly random intensities would do? Especially against a foe who keeps his saber at the max intensity.

Um yeah he has, in his one showing in Legacy 6 and 7 its more then Kun has ever done along with the quote in Legacy 0 saying he's yet to find a match with his saber.

Except he is. I'm only Anti Kun because of all this garbage that gets spewed about him on here, and how he's such a god when he hasn't shown shit, Except being labeled a master swordsman (I'm waiting for someone to quantify this) beating up an old crab and creating a saber with a style he had a whole 6 months MAX to train with...this guy is a lightsaber beast? Please.

Last I checked, Mace has the amazing displays of strength, speed and skill. There's no instance of Kun demonstrating the same abilities in his battles. [/B]

Last I checked, none of Mace's feat wars are relevant to a 1 on 1 combat with a superior force user.

*Gasp*

Ok, what did i notice here? Simple:

-about lightsaber skill, it's clear that windu>kun and only kun's most dedicated fanboys, who seem to be numerous, negates the fact that windu, one of the greatest, strongest and faster duelists ever, who created the most deadlier lightsaber style (at least against dark side users), mastered all the other 6 and beat the hell of the greatest sith ever, can win someone like kun who did absolutly NOTHING relevant with his lightsaber besides hammering down a jedi master who showed nothing impressive, that was reach back by a force ghost and whose weapon was a stick...

- in force use, it's still need someone to prove that kun>windu. While windu showed quite a few things impressive with the force, kun are still to show what he can do. Forgeting the fact that his non lightsaber feats are based on an amulet that was not made by him, he still have MUCH to proof.

So, with ALL this, what the hell did kun to make him even CLOSE to windu?

Really didn't want to get into this argument again and I don't know why I'm doing it now, but whatever.

Exar was an exceptional duelling master.
He also was able to freeze the entire (which had jedi that were in the building) with one spell and then rescue his apprentice and kill an extremely powerful jedi master and nobody could do a thing about it.

The jedi order also sent thousands of jedi (aka the entire Order) to kill Exar. He was able to repel all of them long enough to preserve his spirit for thousands of years.

And Exar did study alot, Vodo-Baas says that Exar is the most powerful student he has ever trained and the most powerful force user of that time.

Exar also studied alot, he was fascinated by the sith teachings in Vodo's holocron. Exar also learned under the ancient sith, like Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos, he would still be very smart. It is also worth noting that the ancient sith said that Exar would be the one to bring about the golden age of the sith and said that he was the Dark Lord of the Sith, over Ulic-Qel Droma.

Exar Kun was also able to destroy the entire Massassi race, quite a feat. He drained their life force and used it to prolong his life.

His apprentice, Ulic, was a powerful jedi and duelist in his own right, but Exar was his unquestioned master and the ancient sith said that Kun would be the dark lord, not Ulic, this means that Kun is stronger than Ulic was.

He was also able to hide as a sith in the middle of the jedi stronghold (Ossus) and recruit jedi to become sith, without the jedi even knowing what he was doing, that's got to take some pretty impressive power. He decived the best jedi in the order, took sith stuff and recruited new allies from the midst of the jedi ranks, lied to the jedi masters, and they couldn't even tell it was going on! Also, this planet (and its sun) were later blown up by Kun so anybody after him would have no knowledge of those things that Exar knew.

Also, he invented his own lightsaber, Exar was the person who invented the double blade lightsaber. He also designed his own unique style of duelling, something that he never tought to anyone and was lost after his defeat. So nobody other than him and Ulic had any idea what to expect from him (everyone else he faced ended up dead)

He is also an amazing dueller, after he decided to try against Vodo (a lightsaber master), Vodo died in around 10 seconds, before that Kun was just toying with him. Toying with him! In the middle of the senate chamber on the same planet as the jedi temple, he could still toy with one of the best duelists in the jedi order and win hands down.

Kun also learned loads of stuff from Ossus, which was later destroyed by him so anyone after him couldn't have learned anything from it, he also used sith holocrons and had the private notes of Naga Sadow, another sith who could blow up a sun. Naga was also a dark lord of the sith from 1000 years before Exar and was Marka Ragnos apprentice and had an amazing grasp of the dark side, Exar learned it all.

Kun was able to walk into the heart of the republic senate, freeze them all, kill their leader and a jedi master, and walk out, nobody could do a thing. This is in the heart of the jedi order! He was also able to kill a beast which is probably very similar to a terentek, or better, with very few problems. Exar was also able to walk into another jedi stronghold (Ossus), kill more jedi, steal the artifacts, and walk out again, unharmed. He was also able to destroy Freedon Nadd with no problems.

Think about how he died, he was faced against 10 000 jedi, and the republic fleet. Under those circumstances, anyone would have died. Exar died sure, but he was able to hold the entire fleet off with the force until he was able to figure out a plan to keep himself alive. Exar was able to kill off an entire race, numbering thousands, to keep himself alive, sure he was killed 4000 years later, but it still took 12 padawans, Luke and Kuns old master to kill him. Think about it, 12 padawans and 2 jedi masters (including one of the most powerful jedi ever; Luke and the old version of Yoda, Vodo-Baas, he trained lots of jedi, for some reason I think of him like an old Yoda), to kill off Kun's 4000 year old ionized air particles! He must have been near godlike when he was alive.

When Kun walked, the ground shook underneath him from the shear power of the dark side emanating from his body.

Exar did invent his own style of lightsaber combat, the double blade, also, his double blade was different than any other double blade. He was able to move it faster and aim more than with other double blades. Also, since few people had never seen a double bladed sabre, it would throw them off. He can move his lightsaber so quickly that almost anyone he faced would be sliced before he knew what was going on.

Exar wore armor with a cortosis weave in it, allowing him to recieve hits from a lightsaber without doing him damage.

He was also a powerful sith alchemist and created several beasts.

Alright, credit to this goes to Lord Darkstar. He wrote the basic thing some time ago, but I've re-worked large parts of it.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Really didn't want to get into this argument again and I don't know why I'm doing it now, but whatever.

Exar was an exceptional duelling master.

Alright, credit to this goes to Lord Darkstar. He wrote the basic thing some time ago, but I've re-worked large parts of it.

LOL poop.

Originally posted by kamhal
-about lightsaber skill, it's clear that windu>kun and only kun's most dedicated fanboys, who seem to be numerous, negates the fact that windu, one of the greatest, strongest and faster duelists ever, who created the most deadlier lightsaber style (at least against dark side users), mastered all the other 6 and beat the hell of the greatest sith ever, can win someone like kun who did absolutly NOTHING relevant with his lightsaber besides hammering down a jedi master who showed nothing impressive, that was reach back by a force ghost and whose weapon was a stick...

- in force use, it's still need someone to prove that kun>windu. While windu showed quite a few things impressive with the force, kun are still to show what he can do. Forgeting the fact that his non lightsaber feats are based on an amulet that was not made by him, he still have MUCH to proof.

So, with ALL this, what the hell did kun to make him even CLOSE to windu? [/B]

Try not to troll around if you don't have an argument.

I'm honestly curious: What does say Kun is superior to Mace in force abilities? Since we've established probable superiority in saber ability, let's go to the next issue

DS, you ignored my post.

Which post Escape, I don't see it. And lightsnake, there is a debate between Kun and Mace involving saber abilities. There IS no debate involving force abilities because Kun IS superior to Mace in that category.

which is why I see so much proof for it