Exar Kun versus Mace Windu

First off, Sidious was EASILY one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the entire sw universe. He's not the greatest but maybe top 5, who knows. Bottom line is I find it very unlikely that ANY dark side user could defeat Mace in saber combat. While the A>B>C argument doesn't work, there's still little evidence that Kun could take down Windu. Granted he was miles above everyone in his age, but Mace was the second greatest duelist in the golden age. His Vaapad and shatterpoint would be the difference in a saber fight. Kun wins everything else.

I think DE Sidious may beat Mace in a saber combat.

I've said this over and over and received the sh*tstorm for it, but honestly, Kun's feats are just ridiculous. The only thing even remotely mentionable is his amulets, everything else he's supposedly "godly" for is for defeating people like Vodo and Sylvar, hardly high showings of the 1337 God that is Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Pwned61
I don't understand how Kun would benefit from having invented the style. While he may have been a prodigious talent with a blade, Maul would benefit from the weapon having been in use for over a millennium, over time I can only see improvements and refinements being made to the style itself so by the time it got around to Maul, he'd have a much better start.

I didn't see many people wielding a double-bladed lightsaber with a regular hilt which is exactly what Kun was using. And the double-bladed lightsaber was also not the "weapon of choice" as the list of users / possible users is rather short. And yet Kun had a unique fighting style. I was just talking about the weapon design (meaning the two blades) that would give him an advantage.

I'm gonna have to check with Lightsnake on this one, but I'm pretty sure that they out and out state Sid's supremacy in bladed combat, the line was something like "master of every form, every weapon", I'll ask him the next time he's on.

Yay. We all know that this means nothing. Look at what happened to Kas'im and we also already know that Maul came close to kill Sidious in a lightsaber duel while Mace and (according to the script) Yoda did both manage to disarm him in sheer lightsaber combat.

Anyway, in terms of Mace vs. Kun, while I agree that generally agree that an ABC argument is flawed, it's a different case when the "B" in this case if F****ing sidious. Kun, who is 2 or 3 (at least) levels farther down on the food chain of sith lords then won't be a greater challenge (at least in terms of saber combat, still don't know where I stand on those amulets)

Erm. Excuse me. 2 or 3 "levels" down on the food chain ? I hope you aren't refering to RPG stats here because I'm not in the mood to argue that stupid stats once more. Kun is an exceptional duellist equipped with knowledge of several styles and a unique weapon with a corresponding unique fighting style.

And the ABC argument also is flawed if "B" is Sidious. Because you have no idea how good Sidious is in saber combat compared to Exar Kun or how good Mace is compared to Kun. Hence mentioning Sidious here is already nonsense. I don't have any doubt that Sidious and Mace are both exeptional duellists but stating that one of them would certainly take Kun without wasting time to type down a singular argument for that opinion is stupid.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I can't see Exar losing this fight.

Noone cares, Glentract. Your fanboyism has become tiresome.

In fact I can't wait to see your argument on this. What makes Kun so great? Defeating a guy who never did anything impressive whatsoever, stalemating Ulic?

What does he have going for him next to Mace, I just BEG to know.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I can't see Exar losing this fight.

OH WOW! He can freeze 4,000 beings! A feat Joruus C'Baoth turned on its head when he controlled tens of thousands!

He has AMULETS that fire blasts that Mace would be able to dodge any day of the week and were never tested with ANY force user worth his salt!

What'll Kun do if he lifts his arm and Mace just snaps all the bones like kindling with a Force Crush? Oh, wait, double standards from Kun's cheerleaders? Never!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
OH WOW! He can freeze 4,000 beings! A feat Joruus C'Baoth turned on its head when he controlled tens of thousands!

He has AMULETS that fire blasts that Mace would be able to dodge any day of the week and were never tested with ANY force user worth his salt!

What'll Kun do if he lifts his arm and Mace just snaps all the bones like kindling with a Force Crush? Oh, wait, double standards from Kun's cheerleaders? Never! [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
um we've been over this LS. It was tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands.

We don't know who has what kind of force defense and it all depends on a user's force abilities, which Kun greatly surpasses Mace in. What you're doing is diminishing a character you don't like under false premises.

What's Kun done with the Force, now? Oh, right, he beat people of no significance whatsoever, used something not of his own power, and froze 4000 people, which a Jedi Master far below Mace could do.

Wowsers. What a powerhouse.

What's Kun done with the Force, now? Oh, right, he beat people of no significance whatsoever, used something not of his own power, and froze 4000 people, which a Jedi Master far below Mace could do.

Ownage...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, we have, so why are you not admitting you're wrong?
It was less than 4000 people. At its height, the Republic senate had fewer than 4000 people and TOTJ is far from the height.

Is that shattering sound your argument collapsing?

Uh, uh, no, sorry. We've seen other 'blasts' blocked and/or dodged. There's ZERO proof for THEIR side of the argument-that it's unblockable, undodgeable, super fast, instant, disintegrates things- and I've torn down Glentract's idiotic arguments more than once.

So, no. Provide ME proof to THEIR side, or enough

Wow, and Mace will stand there and let Kun blast him! Hypocrisy much?

Force abilities? Kun surpasses Mace? That's a joke.

What's Kun done with the Force, now? Oh, right, he beat people of no significance whatsoever, used something not of his own power, and froze 4000 people, which a Jedi Master far below Mace could do.

Wowsers. What a powerhouse. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes lightsnake, becaue you can make an arbitary number, somehow my argument is collapsing. We've had this debate and you were soundly defeated. If you don't recall, perhaps I can show you Advent's logic towards the number of senate members.

No it's fact, you throwing in a cogent argument is a joke.

Your attempts to diminish yet another non PT character with bullshit premises have failed once again. Come back when you're not making shit up on the spot. 4,000 people. Wow..

Less than 4000. In fact, on the databank?
http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/galacticsenate/?id=eu

Huh....just a bit over 1000 repulsorlifts....each containing....what, three Senators?

Ultimate Visual guide gives the number, too.

Oops, sorry

Originally posted by Lightsnake
perhaps I can show you where I fail to give a shit about that?

It's directly, canonically stated in several points that at its height, the Senate consists of less than 4000 beings, each representing a system.

system. Not planets. Kay? Kay. Anything you can use to argue against that besides writing your own material for LFL?
Didn't think so

Lightsnake...really...
You should be pretty aware of the fact that this number can't be right. Why ? The Republic had "millions" of member planets and aside of that we have comments of multiple people in AotC that "thousands" of systems are joining the CIS each day.

How do you fit millions of planets in some thousand star systems, eh ? Doesn't work. And if "thousands" (so at least 2,000) star-systems were joining the CIS each day it would have been "Coruscant against the Galaxy" after two days, logically.

Your debating's as poor as ever.
I've never claimed it's blockable. I'm telling them to prove it's 'unblockable.'
Defaulting on absence of proof nw? tsk tsk tsk

Rofl, Lightsnake. I might point out that calling somebodies debating "poor" just to ask him to proof a negative in the next sentence and thereby commiting a logical fallancy is not the smartest thing somebody can do.

And if Jedi aren't able to dodge or block regular blaster fire how are they going to block or dodge energy beams which have the size of a room and are far more destructive than regular blaster shots and double in energy output every time Kun uses the amulet ?

"Absence" would be the right term to descripe the status of arguments you have for your idea that they are capable of blocking or dodging those beams.

I'll take this as DS's usual bullshit in his la la land and put him on ignore when he grows up and learns to debate.

Do I smell some unjustified arrogance here ? Yup. Might be the case. I see you talking bullshit (Senate members, see below) and commiting a logical fallancy (asking to proof a negative) and with that on your side, you want to tell other people that they should learn how to debate. Really, Lightsnake....

Less than 4000. In fact, on the databank?
http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/galacticsenate/?id=eu

Huh....just a bit over 1000 repulsorlifts....each containing....what, three Senators?

Ultimate Visual guide gives the number, too.

Oops, sorry

LMAO. I don't know where to start.

You are of course aware of the fact that the Republic was reformed after the Ruusan reformation ? Before that each world had a Senator in the Senate. After that the Republic was first devided into sectors (50 inhabitable worlds each) with a single Senator and when the number of Senators (even using that system) became too great, that sectors were organized into regions (each having one Senator).
That means in Kun's time every single member world of the Republic hat it's own Senator on Coruscant. Going by the assignment of 50 worlds to Senator that had to fit into the building it even were 50,000 worlds right after the Sith did almost conquer the entire Galaxy. So most likely more than that in Kun's time.

So it's quite likely that Kun did freeze tenthousands of beings. Not to mention that your entire argument is useless because even canonically Kun was entering a completely different Senate building so that nice little number doesn't apply for that as we can all see here.

Nai, explain to me how Kun's usage of a double-bladed lightsaber would give him a "slight" edge in lightsaber combat versus Mace, or how it would even register next to Vaapad or Shatterpoint, because I find that supremely hard to believe.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
perhaps I can show you where I fail to give a shit about that?

It's directly, canonically stated in several points that at its height, the Senate consists of less than 4000 beings, each representing a system.

system. Not planets. Kay? Kay. Anything you can use to argue against that besides writing your own material for LFL?
Didn't think so

Your debating's as poor as ever.
I've never claimed it's blockable. I'm telling them to prove it's 'unblockable.'
Defaulting on absence of proof nw? tsk tsk tsk

I'll take this as DS's usual bullshit in his la la land and put him on ignore when he grows up and learns to debate.

Ultimate Visual guide gives the number, too.

Oops, sorry [/B]

Maul designed his weapon after Exar Kun's and "mastered" it, just for the record.

Also, Mace has beat Asajj when she used a double bladed lightsaber, when she used two lightsabers, Sora when he used two, and Grievous when he used four. I don't see the double bladed lightsaber as any real advantage over Mace. Aside from that Kun falls way short in the dueling aspects.

Mace has the speed to be on Kun in an instant, and to take him down. Hard.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Lightsnake...really...
You should be pretty aware of the fact that this number can't be right. Why ? The Republic had "millions" of member planets and aside of that we have comments of multiple people in AotC that "thousands" of systems are joining the CIS each day.

LMAO. I don't know where to start.

You are [b]of course aware of the fact that the Republic was reformed after the Ruusan reformation ?

Before that each world had a Senator in the Senate.

After that the Republic was first devided into sectors (50 inhabitable worlds each) with a single Senator and when the number of Senators (even using that system) became too great, that sectors were organized into regions (each having one Senator).
That means in Kun's time every single member world of the Republic hat it's own Senator on Coruscant. Going by the assignment of 50 worlds to Senator that had to fit into the building it even were 50,000 worlds right after the Sith did almost conquer the entire Galaxy. So most likely more than that in Kun's time.

So it's quite likely that Kun did freeze tenthousands of beings. Not to mention that your entire argument is useless because even canonically Kun was entering a completely different Senate building so that nice little number doesn't apply for that as we can all see here. [/B]

Either way, I'm really waiting to see how Kun's Force Powers or saber skills are such hotness compared to Mace.

Oh, and I put DS on ignore until he grows up. Just for his benefit.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It can be right, simply on the basis that in the senate, representation is given on the basis of a representation of a system, or numerous systems.

Apparently that's what they did.
Quite frankly, I'm not willing to go IKC on a piece of direct written canon simply because it doesn't fit my view on Star Wars. Quite simply, I don't much care about the logistics

I'm sorry, Nai. I assumed with him bleating constantly about Kun's blast being 'unblockable', he would offer some proof to it.
Oh, and asking for proof it's unblockable kind of negates the negative proof fallacy

At its best, Kun's blast was not overpowering, or as large as people like IKC loved to make it out.
And Jedi can't block or dodge blaster fighter? Mace'll be informed he died on Dantooine, then?

Here's the thing: I'm sick of seeing them referred to as godly weapons.
The fact remains: Kun never uses them again, save arguably on Aleema, and there is zero, absolutely zero, proof in their favor, or that Kun won't be looking at the stump where his arm used to be the moment he raises his fist, because, quite simply, there is total absence of any sort of speed in his favor in this fight

Unlike Ds, I don't like aruging direct, canon facts, or did I commit a fallacy.
Don't start, Nai. I don't want to argue semantic.s Provide the argument and leave it there

You are aware the Republic never once ended in about 20,000 years until Palpatine abolished it, correct?

Since when? Large corporation groups had representation in the Senate, and each system elected their own senator, not counting numerous planets that took no part in the Republic

You mean a much younger Republic? One without many of the worlds that joined in the proceeding millenia?
Since when did 'every single world' have its own senator on Coruscant, either?

It's a good thing the quote was applied to the senate itself from the Visual Gudie and not to a building.

Either way, I'm really waiting to see how Kun's Force Powers or saber skills are such hotness compared to Mace.

Oh, and I put DS on ignore until he grows up. Just for his benefit.

This coming from a massive tool that goes ape shit when one of his precious PT characters is on the losing side of a debate. Please, all you is parade around these "canon" quotes. Not to mention the databank isn't exactly canon as well. Your debating skills are pathetic. Not to mention there is nothing that puts Mace remotely close to Kun in force abilities. Also, notice how I never argued his amulet blasts, or even used them as a part of this debate, so learn to read, dumbass.

Originally posted by Gideon
Nai, explain to me how Kun's usage of a double-bladed lightsaber would give him a "slight" edge in lightsaber combat versus Mace, or how it would even register next to Vaapad or Shatterpoint, because I find that supremely hard to believe.

I've quoted Kas'im's statement from POD on that topic already. He basically said that to counter the advantage of a double-bladed lightsaber you technically have to master it yourself. I didn't see Mace ever using that weapon or gaining much experience in fighting somebody armed with a weapon like that.

And I did just say that Kun uses a weapon which is unfamiliar for Mace, which would be an advantage. Vaapad ? You are talking about the fighting style ? We don't know how good that is in comparison to Kun's own unique fighting style. So I was assuming that Mace and Kun would both encounter an opponent with a unique way to wield his lightsaber - basically a draw in the advantage area. That leaves the Shatterpoint ability VS the double-blade. The point is that there has to be an exploitable Shatterpoint that Mace can find when trying to use that ability against Kun. And that begs for proof that there is something like that...

@jollyjim:

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Maul designed his weapon after Exar Kun's and "mastered" it, just for the record.

For the record: Kun's double blade had an almost regular sized hilt and he was wielding it one-handed. It's completely different from any other double-bladed lightsaber we've seen so far. Just for the record.

Also, Mace has beat Asajj when she used a double bladed lightsaber, when she used two lightsabers, Sora when he used two, and Grievous when he used four. I don't see the double bladed lightsaber as any real advantage over Mace. Aside from that Kun falls way short in the dueling aspects.

Can you remind me when Asajj ever used a double-bladed lightsaber versus Mace Windu. Which again wouldn't matter as Exar's double-bladed lightsaber is a completely unique weapon in the SW universe going by the regular hilt and by the way Kun was using it.

Mace has the speed to be on Kun in an instant, and to take him down. Hard.

I don't see Mace simply owning Kun in a lightsaber fight.

@Lightsnake:

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It can be right, simply on the basis that in the senate, representation is given on the basis of a representation of a system, or numerous systems.

Apparently that's what they did.
Quite frankly, I'm not willing to go IKC on a piece of direct written canon simply because it doesn't fit my view on Star Wars. Quite simply, I don't much care about the logistics

Erm. You have written that each of the Senators was representing a system which was your mistake here. For example the Techno Union and the Banking Clan or the Trade Federation clearing represinting more than one world had only one senator each. 😉

I'm sorry, Nai. I assumed with him bleating constantly about Kun's blast being 'unblockable', he would offer some proof to it.
Oh, and asking for proof it's unblockable kind of negates the negative proof fallacy

Nope. Asking for proof that something is "unblockable" means that you asking him for proof that the beams can not be blocked. Hence asking to proof a negative.

At its best, Kun's blast was not overpowering, or as large as people like IKC loved to make it out.
And Jedi can't block or dodge blaster fighter? Mace'll be informed he died on Dantooine, then?

Excuse me lightsnake. That Sithspawn Kun ripped apart was pretty damn huge and going by the holes that beams were tearing they are as big as a regular sized room. By the same instance they are also pretty damn powerful if they can do that.

And going by that size I don't see anybody "dodging" them and I also doubt that a lightsaber would offer a viable protection against a beam with that size.

Here's the thing: I'm sick of seeing them referred to as godly weapons.
The fact remains: Kun never uses them again, save arguably on Aleema, and there is zero, absolutely zero, proof in their favor, or that Kun won't be looking at the stump where his arm used to be the moment he raises his fist, because, quite simply, there is total absence of any sort of speed in his favor in this fight

Yeah Lightsnake. Can you again remind me when Kun should have used the amulets again ? He simply didn't need to do so going by the fact that he pretty much owned everyone in the comics that tries to challenge him in direct confrontation - with the exception of Ulic.

And the "absence of speed" going by the fact how fast Ulic was cutting through the Naddist in TFNU and the fact that Kun was a match for an even more powerful version of Ulic, I doubt that Mace would have much of a speed advantage. Virtually every Jedi in the SW universe seems to move at speeds not perceiveable with the raw eye.

You are aware the Republic never once ended in about 20,000 years until Palpatine abolished it, correct?

They still reformed the Senate and the Republic during the Ruusan reformations. That's a fact. It doesn't matter if the Republic ended there or not.

Since when? Large corporation groups had representation in the Senate, and each system elected their own senator, not counting numerous planets that took no part in the Republic

How many "large corporation groups" were present 4,000 years before the PT ? I didn't see the Techno Union or the Banking Clan around, much less the Trade Federation. Going by KotoR there is only the Czerka Corporation (later known as Czerka Arms) and they operated on star-systems independently.

You mean a much younger Republic? One without many of the worlds that joined in the proceeding millenia?
Since when did 'every single world' have its own senator on Coruscant, either?

I wouldn't call a 20,000 year old institution "young" exactly. And you really don't want to tell me that they had 4,000 worlds in 4,000 BBY and then that number increased to several millions in that few millenia where no compareable increase of worlds was there before ? Right...

It's a good thing the quote was applied to the senate itself from the Visual Gudie and not to a building.

It's a good thing that the building is also simply called "Senate" so I'd like to see where you're getting that idea that it referred to the institution and not to the building. Not to mention that you were drawing those numbers from the number of repulsor lifts in the new Senate building where the old one was far bigger so most likely holding more people.

Either way, I'm really waiting to see how Kun's Force Powers or saber skills are such hotness compared to Mace.

You're talking about the same Exar Kun who was capable of using force lightning, was capable of toasting Gantoris from the inside out, projected "snakes" consisting out of pure dark side energy that ripped Luke's spirit from his body and who force choked Luke's students all at once ? The same Kun who was called "the darkest power in the Galaxy" by the omniscient narrator ? The same Kun who helped Kyp Durron to raise the Sun Crusher from the gas giant (*hint* pressure *hint*) Yavin ?

I really don't see where Mace force abilities are exceeding that of Kun. And a saber contest between them is also far away from having a certain winner considering they are both among the best duellist the Galaxy has seen so far. Notice how I didn't state that Kun would "destroy" or "own" Mace...I basically said "possible defeat him after a long fight".

I've quoted Kas'im's statement from POD on that topic already. He basically said that to counter the advantage of a double-bladed lightsaber you technically have to master it yourself. I didn't see Mace ever using that weapon or gaining much experience in fighting somebody armed with a weapon like that.

You didn't answer my question: how does this compare to Vaapad and Shatterpoint? If we're to take Kas'im's statement as the gospel, am I to assume that Darth Maul and Bastila Shan are now among the elite duelists of the Star Wars mythos?

And I did just say that Kun uses a weapon which is unfamiliar for Mace, which would be an advantage.

I never denied that. But you're making it sound as if that somehow compares to Mace's own advantages, which is kind've funny since there's no reason to believe it's up to par.

Vaapad ? You are talking about the fighting style ? We don't know how good that is in comparison to Kun's own unique fighting style.

We do know that Vaapad is the "deadliest" lightsaber form. One would think that that would make Vaapad superior to Kun's form.

So I was assuming that Mace and Kun would both encounter an opponent with a unique way to wield his lightsaber - basically a draw in the advantage area.

That's assuming that Kun's style equals Mace's own, which, as you say below "begs for proof".

That leaves the Shatterpoint ability VS the double-blade. The point is that there has to be an exploitable Shatterpoint that Mace can find when trying to use that ability against Kun. And that begs for proof that there is something like that...

Begs for proof? Unless Kun is perfect or otherwise 100% flawless, he has weaknesses. Since Mace was able to detect the weakness of a guy who is proven to be more powerful than Kun [Sidious], I find it grotesquely hard to believe that he wouldn't be able to do the same for Kun.