DC Comics: The Final Crisis!

Originally posted by Digi
Someone posted Morrison's master plan for Batman a while back. And while I give him props on the idea, and even somewhat the execution of it, it's once again a point that we can't get until we read Morrison's interview about the issue. It's like he's parading how clever he is, failing to realize that those who don't link to Wizard for his interview on the subject will likely be left in the dark.

So it's cool for us. Most of the issue seemed like filler, so I'm not a huge fan of FC6 in general, but the overarching story with Batman was indeed kinda nifty. But for the other 99% of comic readers who don't frequent chat forums like it's their job, he just left them out to dry, like he usually does with his oh-so-clever story arcs.

😬

Maybe, they deserve to be "left in the dry".

If you don't like a comic because its too heavy and complex then you don't deserve to have your options taken seriously.

Example:

The Godfather = a Bad Film because it complex, is the equivalent of saying that I don't enjoy something because I didn't understand it.

Whose at fault here the writer, or the viewer?

Mario Puzo / Grant Morrison, or the person who didn't understand what was going on ?

If we equate what is good, with "user friendliness", we might as well spend the rest of our lives watching reality t.v and Jack Ass, friends while playing snakes and ladders.

Stagnation brought on by the incompetents of the masses, is one of the reasons that Fredrick Nietzsche went mental.

That ... and syphilis

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Stagnation brought on by the incompetents of the masses, is one of the reasons that Fredrick Nietzsche went mental.

That ... and syphilis

After his funeral a plaque was put up to commemorate Nietzsche and what may be his most famous quote. It read.

"God is dead."

- Nietzsche

A vandal, who remains unknown to this day, decided to add his own quote beneath the plaque.

"Nietzsche is dead."

-God

😆

Originally posted by willRules
After his funeral a plaque was put up to commemorate Nietzsche and what may be his most famous quote. It read.

"God is dead."

- Nietzsche

A vandal, who remains unknown to this day, decided to add his own quote beneath the plaque.

"Nietzsche is dead."

-God

😆

Yeah my dad has told me on many occasions. He think its hilarious. But he's an Evangelical Christian.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Maybe, they deserve to be "left in the dry".

If you don't like a comic because its too heavy and complex then you don't deserve to have your options taken seriously.

Example:

The Godfather = a Bad Film because it complex, is the equivalent of saying that I don't enjoy something because I didn't understand it.

Whose at fault here the writer, or the viewer?

Mario Puzo / Grant Morrison, or the person who didn't understand what was going on ?

If we equate what is good, with "user friendliness", we might as well spend the rest of our lives watching reality t.v and Jack Ass, friends while playing snakes and ladders.

Stagnation brought on by the incompetents of the masses, is one of the reasons that Fredrick Nietzsche went mental.

That ... and syphilis

The Godfather can stand on its own, without the director's/author's interview on it that tells us exactly what it's supposed to mean, which is something we couldn't possibly figure out otherwise.

Gaiman is complex without being confusing and so obscure that even hardcore fans have to go to him for the meaning. Moore is complex without confusion. Great films and novels do it too. Complexity in and of itself doesn't equal good writing. Morrison did the same with his AS Supes run, which again had an excellent theme, but was only something you'd find out about once Morrison told everyone what he was doing with it.

So no, the fans aren't at fault for not following Wizard to figure out what a story's supposed to mean. Morrison's at fault for thinking that making a theme so vague that only he and a few lucky, hardcore fanboys understand his work until they see his "brilliant" explanation of it is true art.

Btw, I love the overarching idea with Batman, and the symbolic nature of him killing Darkseid, his last words, the whole deal. It's cool as hell. But it was atrociously executed.

Originally posted by Digi
The Godfather can stand on its own, without the director's/author's interview on it that tells us exactly what it's supposed to mean, which is something we couldn't possibly figure out otherwise.

Gaiman is complex without being confusing and so obscure that even hardcore fans have to go to him for the meaning. Moore is complex without confusion. Great films and novels do it too. Complexity in and of itself doesn't equal good writing. Morrison did the same with his AS Supes run, which again had an excellent theme, but was only something you'd find out about once Morrison told everyone what he was doing with it.

So no, the fans aren't at fault for not following Wizard to figure out what a story's supposed to mean. Morrison's at fault for thinking that making a theme so vague that only he and a few lucky, hardcore fanboys understand his work until they see his "brilliant" explanation of it is true art.

Btw, I love the overarching idea with Batman, and the symbolic nature of him killing Darkseid, his last words, the whole deal. It's cool as hell. But it was atrociously executed.

Well i understood it perfectly well without reading, wizard or wiki. Must make me cleverer than you !

😉

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Yeah my dad has told me on many occasions. He think its hilarious. But he's an Evangelical Christian.

Oh SNAP

Me too ✅

Originally posted by Digi
The Godfather can stand on its own, without the director's/author's interview on it that tells us exactly what it's supposed to mean, which is something we couldn't possibly figure out otherwise.

Gaiman is complex without being confusing and so obscure that even hardcore fans have to go to him for the meaning. Moore is complex without confusion. Great films and novels do it too. Complexity in and of itself doesn't equal good writing. Morrison did the same with his AS Supes run, which again had an excellent theme, but was only something you'd find out about once Morrison told everyone what he was doing with it.

Id hardly call AS Superman complex. Its analogy of mythical characters such as Jesus, Buddha and Zarathustra. He 's using the overly used notion that characters should inspire us to be better, in the same way characters in fables do. Its hardly that complex, and didn't need explaining at all. He's used the same theme in loads of his books. In fact every time he provides an intro, he spouts the same crap. "Heroes should act as Heroes" etc. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/cartoon/sick.gif
sick
IMO, i really hate it how Morison regards himself as some modern day prophet, of how the world should work. At least, Ellis just moans about how shit life is, rather than preaching about how it should be lived.
Of course there where other themes in All star, i.e. Idealism, the nature of creation, the justification of achieving virtuous ends by any means necessary (Luuthor), while playing obvious home-age to the crazy crap that appears in the Silver age (And your average Doctor Who episode). None of this is what i would regard as complex, or multi layered.
If you're locking for a serious head ****, try Morison's more ambitious work like the Invisible, or t a lesser degree his seven soldiers stuff.

Originally posted by willRules
Oh SNAP

Me too ✅

There's a a film coming out in the Summer , in a Michael Moore esq style that tries to illustrate the potential problems of modern age Zealotry.

I've read Dawkins God Delusions as well, and its very funny at times.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
There's a a film coming out in the Summer , in a Michael Moore esq style that tries to illustrate the potential problems of modern age Zealotry.

I've read Dawkins God Delusions as well, and its very funny at times.

Sounds interesting ✅ I've read the God Delusion. Interesting read and I applaud Dawkins for raising discussion. Obviously being a bias Christian I felt a lot of his arguments weren't new, lacked theological maturity (Although this was expected, Dawkins is a biologist playing a theologian) and were applied with a dogmatism stronger than many religious fundamentalists that gives many credible atheists a bad name. Also being a bias Christian I highly recommend the rebuttal to the God Delusion, a book called the Dawkins Delusion written by ex-atheist, Alistair Mcgrath.

But enough about my ardent passion for JC of Nazareth, back on topic.

I actually enjoyed what I have read so far of Final Crisis. My major complaint is that Morrison seems to have made the reading a little to disjointed to follow and as a result the reader has to work at deciphering the story. This takes away from some of the entertainment value in my opinion.

I think this would be a much better story if not for the label. DC could have made this a big event like they have without making it a Crisis. This story doesn't feel like it has the scope of a Crisis story and consequently doesn't live up to expectations. Of course the death of Batman alone makes this one of the most important books DC is currently publishing, but the title, whilst for the most part enjoyable, is lacking the epic feel of the end of thousands of worlds, that was a prevalent feel from the outset of the previous Crisis. This storyline may be as important as the previous Crisis story lines but it doesn't have the same feel.

After rereading 5 again its amazing how close Granny nearly took control of the GL Battery on Oa. She took a blast from 5 Guardians got up and injured 1 then turned off all of the rings only Hal stopped her knocking her out something she didn't count on. 😄

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Well i understood it perfectly well without reading, wizard or wiki. Must make me cleverer than you !

😉

Not necessarily. Just less humble about it.

😉

Also, you really knew exactly what "Gotcha" meant, with all of the vast implications it alluded to, without Morrison aiding you? I realize that at such a distance, we have to take your word on such things and can't say for sure, but you'll have to understand that I remain a bit skeptical of such a claim.

I'll also agree that the name "Final Crisis" hurts this title. It's not the same kind of story as the previous two. I feel a little bad for Morrison, who likely would be getting praised far more, and would have had more creative freedom, if he was just writing a culminating story to Kirby's Fourth World, rather than DC's supposed "biggest story ever."

Originally posted by Digi
I'll also agree that the name "Final Crisis" hurts this title. It's not the same kind of story as the previous two. I feel a little bad for Morrison, who likely would be getting praised far more, and would have had more creative freedom, if he was just writing a culminating story to Kirby's Fourth World, rather than DC's supposed "biggest story ever."

Agreed. Something like the death of Batman is arguably even more important than anything the previous Crisis stories had to offer. They had the deaths of B list characters and lotsa deaths of other dimensions (D list characters at best). Whereas in final crisis we have the death of an A Lister but it doesn't match the mood of the previous stories which hampers it. Like you say, Morrison has crafted a culmination of Kirby's New God's storyline, not a culmination of the Crisis events.

Originally posted by Digi
I'll also agree that the name "Final Crisis" hurts this title. It's not the same kind of story as the previous two. I feel a little bad for Morrison, who likely would be getting praised far more, and would have had more creative freedom, if he was just writing a culminating story to Kirby's Fourth World, rather than DC's supposed "biggest story ever."

Agreed.

Infact i would go as far to say, the last story of his JLA run seemed far more epic.

Ok got a theory, and ill admit its pretty weak on the "justification front", but as we know Metron has prophesied for a very long time, that Earth would be home to the Fifth World. This seems to have come to pass (Well sort of ) in Final Crisis. But there's one missing element from the equation, that hasn't really been addressed (And it probably doesn't have to be). If Earth is the Fifth world equivalent of New Genesis, where the hell is the fifth World Apokolips ? Now we know that Geoff Johns and Grant Morison love to collaborate with one another, so is there any chance that the most recent New Krypton storyline maybe worked into Morison's idea of a "fifth world" ? Probably not, but the idea of "New Krypton" being the Fifth world equivalent of Apokolips, is IMO really interesting. however I'll be the first to admit, this probably isn't the case. For one thing the 3rd world only had one planet, so two planet relations are not a necessary conditions of "God Worlds". Also the chances that Morison and Geoff Johns have been planing such a original idea since 2006, are really quite minimal. The two are comic book elite, but no writers are that innovative.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010918-KewKryptonTimes7.html

Fifth World "Apokolips" maybe ?

They merged Apokalips and New Genesis together in Death of the New Gods. With how that story is being ignored by Morrison, I wouldn't be surprised if that point is ignored as well. But I always figured it would play a role in the 5th world somehow.

srug

Originally posted by Digi
They merged Apokalips and New Genesis together in Death of the New Gods. With how that story is being ignored by Morrison, I wouldn't be surprised if that point is ignored as well. But I always figured it would play a role in the 5th world somehow.

srug

That smiley looks a little like Mr Hanky the Christmas poo ....

OK I'm going to say it , I'm officially disappointed with the way Morison has "reinvigorated" Kirby's New Gods. The whole notion that we where finally going to see their awesome scary might hasn't bee realised. In fact evidence suggests that the New Gods more are like the parasitic aliens of Star-gates "Gods" rather than the hyper dimensional, ineffably powerful, counter intuitive deities that Morison claimed he was going to illustrate. I love how Seven Soldiers was set up. When ever one of the evil Gods used their divine powers, Shiloh Norman experienced it in limited human way. This coincides with the theme that divine power cannot be truly understood, therefore we experience it traditionally intuitive forms. All you "Know" is that, something is happening, although you cannot explain what. This was a supposedly a prominent theme of Kirby's vision, i.e the tech that the new Gods used was what we perceived as their divine power, in the same way Lightning bolts conveyed Zeus's. Ho3ver the only real use of this in Final crisis is the gun that can fire bullets through time. Every other "God" has been depicted as demonic spirit inhabiting a 3 Dimensional inferior body. Where the hell is all the enigmatic, badass omni technology that Morrison is usually so good at creating. I want my Deus ex machina's, I want to see Kirby's God illustrating their omni powerful abilities.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
OK I'm going to say it , I'm officially disappointed with the way Morison has "reinvigorated" Kirby's New Gods. The whole notion that we where finally going to see their awesome scary might hasn't bee realised. In fact evidence suggests that the New Gods more are like the parasitic aliens of Star-gates "Gods" rather than the hyper dimensional, ineffably powerful, counter intuitive deities that Morison claimed he was going to illustrate. I love how Seven Soldiers was set up. When ever one of the evil Gods used their divine powers, Shiloh Norman experienced it in limited human way. This coincides with the theme that divine power cannot be truly understood, therefore we experience it traditionally intuitive forms. All you "Know" is that, something is happening, although you cannot explain what. This was a supposedly a prominent theme of Kirby's vision, i.e the tech that the new Gods used was what we perceived as their divine power, in the same way Lightning bolts conveyed Zeus's. Ho3ver the only real use of this in Final crisis is the gun that can fire bullets through time. Every other "God" has been depicted as demonic spirit inhabiting a 3 Dimensional inferior body. Where the hell is all the enigmatic, badass omni technology that Morrison is usually so good at creating. I want my Deus ex machina's, I want to see Kirby's God illustrating their omni powerful abilities.

new-gods bless you and your opinion! 😄

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
OK I'm going to say it , I'm officially disappointed with the way Morison has "reinvigorated" Kirby's New Gods. The whole notion that we where finally going to see their awesome scary might hasn't bee realised. In fact evidence suggests that the New Gods more are like the parasitic aliens of Star-gates "Gods" rather than the hyper dimensional, ineffably powerful, counter intuitive deities that Morison claimed he was going to illustrate. I love how Seven Soldiers was set up. When ever one of the evil Gods used their divine powers, Shiloh Norman experienced it in limited human way. This coincides with the theme that divine power cannot be truly understood, therefore we experience it traditionally intuitive forms. All you "Know" is that, something is happening, although you cannot explain what. This was a supposedly a prominent theme of Kirby's vision, i.e the tech that the new Gods used was what we perceived as their divine power, in the same way Lightning bolts conveyed Zeus's. Ho3ver the only real use of this in Final crisis is the gun that can fire bullets through time. Every other "God" has been depicted as demonic spirit inhabiting a 3 Dimensional inferior body. Where the hell is all the enigmatic, badass omni technology that Morrison is usually so good at creating. I want my Deus ex machina's, I want to see Kirby's God illustrating their omni powerful abilities.