Anakin (ROTS) v. Sidious (ROTS)

Started by Faunus10 pages

Originally posted by Gideon
As much as I hate to argue this point, such is my loyalty to canon. This quote seems to indicate that Anakin is as strong as the Emperor, his equal. Not weaker. Not stronger. The Emperor wanted someone who could be stronger than he was.

There's a difference between being someone's equal and someone's superior.

That said, if this is the case, if he is as strong as Palpatine, then he is most decidedly Dooku's absolute superior.

Anakin's raw power at this point probably is on the level of Yoda or Sidious, just as Mace pointed out. However - and I can't stress this enough - he lacks any degree of control over it, and so he can't utilize it as well as he might have been able to. Which makes it irrelevant. If he really is supposed to be as strong as the Emperor or Dooku in terms of the Force he would have utterly annihilated Obi-Wan in their Force contest, since we know for a fact that Obi-Wan is far below either of them in that department. So I still maintain that while Anakin could be more powerful than Dooku, we never see him get to that level.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except the quote in question(not really because you're an idiot) is talking about Luke and has absolutely NOTHING to do with what you mentioned initially.
Him being as strong as the emperor doesn't mean that he could take him or even stalemate him at his peak(ROTS). It means that he has the raw abilities and potential to take be equal to Sidious

Uh, no, thats not what it says, how do you know that was Lucas meant? You don't he didn't say all that. If you can't read English thats not my problem, the quote is pretty clear.

If Anakin's raw power is up there with Sidious', why did he draw with Obi-wan in a force push contest?

Originally posted by Faunus
Anakin's raw power at this point probably is on the level of Yoda or Sidious, just as Mace pointed out. However - and I can't stress this enough - he lacks any degree of control over it, and so he can't utilize it as well as he might have been able to. Which makes it irrelevant. If he really is supposed to be as strong as the Emperor or Dooku in terms of the Force he would have utterly annihilated Obi-Wan in their Force contest, since we know for a fact that Obi-Wan is far below either of them in that department. So I still maintain that while Anakin could be more powerful than Dooku, we never see him get to that level.

He is, however, mentioned by several people, and sources as more powerful than Dooku.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He is, however, mentioned by several people, and sources as more powerful than Dooku.
Yet he can't control what power he has, so it's inconsequential. And that's been my point all along.

I agree with Faunus. It is possible that his raw abilities at this point are on par with Sidious, but he has no control/mastery over the force, which puts him firmly under Sidious.

Originally posted by Faunus
Yet he can't control what power he has, so it's inconsequential. And that's been my point all along.

It did apparently matter quite a bit in the case of Dooku and during his purge of the Jedi Temple, however.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering the novelizations haven't been used as a source here, Janus, I don't really see your point here.

The visual dictionary is equally flawed. It was also released the same time the movie was so the information displayed in it might be correct to a certain extend, yet it's based on the same script version like the novel which is completely different from what the movie shows.


Mmm. Right. You'll have to start explaining how the visual dictionary is flawed when there are absolutely zero contradictions to the movie. In fact, it shows screenshots of the movie and elaborates. In fact, the only thing that seems to make it fallible in this case, is your opinion being contradictory to it.

See above. And there's absolutely zero contradictions to the movie ? You mean like the Visual Dictionary lists Anakin and Obi-Wan to have used different forms when they use their original styles in the movie ? I spot a contradiction there. And it was new to me that the visual dictionary now has to say anything on characters thoughts. Unless they are visible in the movie nowadays.


I'm wondering just where you're getting this from when Chee himself said that thoughts, narration and scenes that take place 'off screen' in the novelizations would be considered G-canon.

If they actually make sense, Lightsnake. That Dooku thinks he can't hold back any longer when Obi-Wan and Anakin almost kill him multiple times seems to be logical. Thinking the same thing while handing Obi-Wan and Anakin their asses doesn't make sense.

And stop coming up with that freaking lies. Everything in the novels not coming from Lucas himself is C-Canon.


Yes, we know. What happens in the movie, etc etc etc. However, according to Chee, there are things that can still be considered of G-canon from the script and novelization, among which being things that happen offscreen, narration and the aforementioned. Such as Mace's little pep talk to Obi-wan, for instance

Once more, Lightsnake.
They aren't G-Canon. If you can't proof that something is coming from Lucas directly than it's C-Canon even if it's in the novel. End of story. And if something doesn't appear on screen it - simple as that - didn't happen.


Considering according to Lucas, Anakin would've been twice as powerful as Palpatine if he reached his potential, I wouldn't be surprised if he could.

Yes...if he reached his potential, with did never happen. RotS Anakin = Obi-Wan Kenobi in terms of force mastery which is far below Dooku.


However, "Will become." Meaning 'will' in the future. Meaning he's not more powerful. In ROTS, Palpatine gains Vader as an apprentice very shortly after Dooku's death. He says the Apprentice he gains 'soon' ill be younger and more powerful.

Yes. Because Anakin was more powerful when it came to potential, which Sidious did know, considering he called him more powerful than Yoda and himself. However. It's a simply fact that Anakin wasn't as powerful as Dooku because otherwise he would have curbstomped Kenobi on Mustafar during their little force contest. Which - surprise, suprise - didn't happen.


Oh, and that was in reference to Force powers and actual ability, as substantiated in a few other spots. While they may be taken with a grain of salt, they aren't suddenly invalid because your opinion contradicts them.

Oh yes. It's substantiated in a few other spots. The factual evidence of Anakin's force mastery can be seen right on screen when he tries to force push Obi-Wan Kenobi. His lightsaber mastery can be seen a little bit later, when he takes a nice lava bath because being a stupid idiot who's totally overestimating his abilities. No wait. That actually doesn't seem to put him above Dooku.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It did apparently matter quite a bit in the case of Dooku and during his purge of the Jedi Temple, however.

Well...had he ever challenged Dooku in a force duel we would know how much it did matter in the case of Dooku.

And during the purge of the Jedi Temple. Yes. His force mastery was helping him there. Let's just ignore the Legion (roughly 10,000) of Clone Troopers that entered the temple with him.

Yeah, let's ignore Anakin killed numerous Jedi without assistance, including simultaneously force choking Bene to death while butchering Cin Drallig....We can ignore that completely.

Considering several sources state Dooku both fights for his life at the end and realizes Anakin is more powerful than he is, what point are you trying to make exactly?

Originally posted by Borbarad
The visual dictionary is equally flawed. It was also released the same time the movie was so the information displayed in it might be correct to a certain extend, yet it's based on the same script version like the novel which is completely different from what the movie shows.

It's flawd. OH, why's this? IT contradicts your opinion? Considering there aren't points where the visual dictionary contradicts the movie, your point is incredibly flawed.
Especially considering it remains a part of SW canon that, shockingly, agree with one another...in fact, Nai, the only thing that doesn't agree with you.


See above. And there's absolutely zero contradictions to the movie ? You mean like the Visual Dictionary lists Anakin and Obi-Wan to have used different forms when they use their original styles in the movie ? I spot a contradiction there. And it was new to me that the [b]visual
dictionary now has to say anything on characters thoughts. Unless they are visible in the movie nowadays.

Oh, yes. What portion of this would it be? Oh, right, the Lucas approved portion that states they hold back to draw Dooku into a false sense of security?
Now, then, where in the movies do Obi-wan and Anakin state 'We're using Forms V and III!"
Right. what was the point you're making here?
Oh, and it's great the visual dictionary does indeed have things to say on characters' motivations and thoughts, especially considering it's putting down information that should be obvious visually.


If they actually make sense, Lightsnake. That Dooku thinks he can't hold back any longer when Obi-Wan and Anakin almost kill him multiple times seems to be logical. Thinking the same thing while handing Obi-Wan and Anakin their asses doesn't make sense.

Yes, and if you bother to read the novelization, Dooku nearly dies because he's taking them too lightly, gets serious, regains control and then leads Anakin on a merry dance, gets overconfident and then realizes "Hey, maybe I shouldn't have provoked this kid, he's way stronger than I thought!"
The latter portion of that? Happens right in the films. The movie shows Anakin defeating him when provoked, the ROTS novelization has Dooku's own thoughts-which according to Chee, etc, etc- the visual dictionary, chronology, Visual Guide....

Again: maybe you ought to reevaluate your opinion just a bit when everything but you says you're wrong on this subject


And stop coming up with that freaking lies. Everything in the novels not coming from Lucas himself is C-Canon.

And when that came under any sort of scrutiny in this debate until you mentioned it now?


Once more, Lightsnake.
They aren't G-Canon. If you can't proof that something is coming from Lucas directly than it's C-Canon even if it's in the novel. End of story. And if something doesn't appear on screen it - simple as that - didn't happen.

Tell it to Chee, not me.
Next point, please.


Yes...if he reached his potential, with did never happen. RotS Anakin = Obi-Wan Kenobi in terms of force mastery which is far below Dooku.

Based on one single force push? That still sends Obi-wan flying back harder? Dooku himself realizes that 'Anakin is more powerful than he had imagined?'
Palpatine comments in the movie Anakin>Dooku?
Anything else?


Yes. Because Anakin was more powerful when it came to potential, which Sidious did know, considering he called him more powerful than Yoda and himself. However. It's a simply fact that Anakin wasn't as powerful as Dooku because otherwise he would have curbstomped Kenobi on Mustafar during their little force contest. Which - surprise, suprise - didn't happen.

Ah, right. Palpatine must be referring to '[potential'...not 'power' as in 'power' when we just saw Anakin defeat Dooku when Dooku taunted him about not 'using his anger and hate' and in a similar state as when he defeats Dooku, Anakin simultaneously defeats Cin Drallig and his students.
Different fights, different environments, different circumstance.
The movie, AKA, G-canon says clearly Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Where in the world do you pull 'potential' from? Why do you ignore in RODV that Palpatine tells Anakin if Dooku had been more powerful, he'd have ended up walking over Anakin's corpse to sit at Palpatine's right hand?

anything that really backs up your opinion, Nai? Anything that even makes a dent in anything official?


Oh yes. It's substantiated in a few other spots. The factual evidence of Anakin's force mastery can be seen right on screen when he tries to force push Obi-Wan Kenobi. His lightsaber mastery can be seen a little bit later, when he takes a nice lava bath because being a stupid idiot who's totally overestimating his abilities. No wait. That actually doesn't seem to put him above Dooku. [/B]

Who loses his hands and head for being an overconfident idiot against Anakin? Who also kills Cin Drallig while distracted by using the Force on someone else, while simultaneously fighting him with only one hand? Who also slaughters a Jedi Master skilled enough to slow the entire Clone Advance by himself=as seen in Dark Nest's replays from the past?

But, hey, why even bother taking this into consideration? I don't recall many hints of the idea that Dooku was supposed to throw the fight in the movie.....hey, that idea originates in what you term C-canon, after all..

If you want to continue this, quit the double-standards

Nai, your A>B>C argument doesn't work. I forgot what the source was, but something stated that Anakin and Obiwan weren't a good team in saber combat because Anakin always thought OBiwan was holding him back and got in the way. Secondly, I don't know why force powers are an issue here, as Dooku is clearly superior to Anakin in this field. However, Anakin IS superior to Dooku in saber combat, as shown when he didn't have Obiwan in his way and didn't have to hold back. I AM surprised that you're throwing in the Obiwan vs. Anakin fight knowing full well that the ONLY reason Obiwan won was because he knew every move Anakin was going to make forwards and backwards because, well, he taught him everything.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It did apparently matter quite a bit in the case of Dooku and during his purge of the Jedi Temple, however.
Neither of which required a demonstration of his power or mastery in the Force. Dooku? After the Count humiliated Obi-Wan in an impressive display of his power and mastery - which is what I'm going for - Anakin just pushed him back with his lightsaber and took off his hands with a single slick move. Demonstration of superior Force ability? None. For the second example; well, this is lame. I believe that Palpatine said himself in RoDV that the clones alone could have managed to overtake the Jedi Temple, and that Anakin was only included to prove his commitment to the Dark side. Now, the few Jedi we know he killed were four years olds, preteens, and an old instructor. Whoa, hardcore! And how did he kill them? As far as we know, with the lightsaber. Demonstration of superior Force ability? Surprise, surprise - none.

Whoa whoa Faunus, he DID kill a few jedi with impressive abilities(if I remember correctly), but that in no way means he CURRENTLY has the force mastery which is superior to Dooku. He has the ABILITY to wtfpwn Dooku in force abilities ONCE he learned to master/control the force. You've seen him kill jedi and others with the force which shows that he has the abilities, but not the control. At his peak in ROTS, he is FIRMLY inferior to Dooku in force abilities, but NOT saber combat.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Whoa whoa Faunus, he DID kill a few jedi with impressive abilities(if I remember correctly), but that in no way means he CURRENTLY has the force mastery which is superior to Dooku. He has the ABILITY to wtfpwn Dooku in force abilities ONCE he learned to master/control the force. You've seen him kill jedi and others with the force which shows that he has the abilities, but not the control. At his peak in ROTS, he is FIRMLY inferior to Dooku in force abilities, but NOT saber combat.

when does he reach his peak in rots? if its after the massacre at the temple well then that isnt anakin anymore and this thread is for anakin vs sidious

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Whoa whoa Faunus, he DID kill a few jedi with impressive abilities(if I remember correctly),
Like who? Drallig? Serra? In regards to the first, we never saw the entire fight. We witnessed a second-long clip of him choking a girl in one hand while trading two blows with Cin Drallig. That's it. As for Serra; the only source that actually verifies her existence is the RotS videogame, which is horribly contradictory to the movie. But assuming that particular duel occurred, it still doesn't prove anything about his Force abilities.

You've seen him kill jedi and others with the force which shows that he has the abilities, but not the control. At his peak in ROTS, he is FIRMLY inferior to Dooku in force abilities, but NOT saber combat.
If he is indeed superior to Dooku in swordsmanship it's by a very small margin. Overpowering someone with physical strength does not constitute superior skill. And if beating him alone means he's better, then we always have the Obi-Wan case. But I don't want to get into this now.

The only thing I'm disputing is the claim that Anakin has superior Force abilities when compared to the likes of Dooku or Sidious.

Originally posted by Faunus
Neither of which required a demonstration of his power or mastery in the Force. Dooku? After the Count humiliated Obi-Wan in an impressive display of his power and mastery - which is what I'm going for - Anakin just pushed him back with his lightsaber and took off his hands with a single slick move. Demonstration of superior Force ability? None. For the second example; well, this is lame. I believe that Palpatine said himself in RoDV that the clones alone could have managed to overtake the Jedi Temple, and that Anakin was only included to prove his commitment to the Dark side. Now, the few Jedi we know he killed were four years olds, preteens, and an old instructor. Whoa, hardcore! And how did he kill them? As far as we know, with the lightsaber. Demonstration of superior Force ability? Surprise, surprise - none.

'Old Instructor?' Faunus, there's no need to downplay a considerable feat. Cin Drallig was widely acknowledged as an exceptional fighter and by that logic, Count Dooku is just an 'old aristocrat.' Anakin's confirmed kills included Master Jurokk, Cin himself, Jocasta Nu- who was killed by a combination of force and Saber..

On the matter of Dooku, it is significant Palpatine says Anakin is younger and more powerful than Dooku, that the Visual Guide comments Dooku realizes 'too late' that anakin is more powerful than he'd imagined and in RODV Palpatine also comments if Dooku were more powerful, it'd have been Anakin who died.

Sure, a huge legion of clones would've taken the Temple. Anakin's very notable achievement during the raid with Cin-which we do know the specifics of due to 'Order 66: Destroy all Jedi', as well as Serra Keto and Jocasta Nu, confirmed by Leland Chee here:
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=945

In regards to strict force ability, we also have Anakin able to use the force to control Durge's mind-and Durge had in earlier comics proved almost immune to such things- as well as using the force to send Durge's escape pod into a sun....that right there does seem a nice display of ability

To be fair though Lightsnake, nothing even suggests that Anakin is Dooku's superior in the force, much less even on his level. He definitely gets there and surpasses Dooku after 20 years of training under Palpatine but as of ROTS? No way. Saber skills, yes.. And yes Faunus, even by a small margin he IS better than him. You are downplaying his ability by stating that he "overpowered" Dooku, when that's a testament to his skill. That's like saying Mace ISNT superior to Sidious in saber combat just because he "overpowered" him.

First, READ THESE.

The only thing I'm disputing is the claim that Anakin has superior Force abilities when compared to the likes of Dooku or Sidious.

After the Count humiliated Obi-Wan in an impressive display of his power and mastery - which is what I'm going for. . .

Yet he can't control what power he has, so it's inconsequential. And that's been my point all along

However - and I can't stress this enough - he lacks any degree of control over it, and so he can't utilize it as well as he might have been able to.

That's four times I've stated that I'm not arguing his dueling ability, his potential or his libido. So please, unless I've asked for verification of a source, don't bring up these topics in your replies. (Directed at anyone who might reply, btw)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
'Old Instructor?' Faunus, there's no need to downplay a considerable feat. Cin Drallig was widely acknowledged as an exceptional fighter and by that logic, Count Dooku is just an 'old aristocrat.'
A considerable feat which we have next to zero details about. And Count Dooku is an old aristocrat. But he also happens to be Mr. Lee, and a total badass. Nick Gillard is a raving fanboy.

Anakin's confirmed kills included Master Jurokk, Cin himself, Jocasta Nu- who was killed by a combination of force and Saber.
Well, going by the novel and videogame. . . meh, I'll go along. Jurokk, being the gatekeeper, got stabbed in the face without so much as grabbing his lightsaber. So, Anakin gets no credit for that whatsoever. And Jocasta Nu? The librarian who probably hasn't seen combat since before TPM? Yeah, right. I fail to see how this compares with Dooku's considerable list of accomplishments that are actually related to his skill in the Force; in case you hadn't noticed, none of your examples show any remarkable skill on his part whatsoever.

On the matter of Dooku, it is significant Palpatine says Anakin is younger and more powerful than Dooku, that the Visual Guide comments Dooku realizes 'too late' that anakin is more powerful than he'd imagined and in RODV Palpatine also comments if Dooku were more powerful, it'd have been Anakin who died.
Again, I've already stated that I believe Anakin to have more power available to him than Dooku. However, it's very clear that he does not come close to having the considerable degree of control and mastery that the Count displays. Hell, Obi-Wan has greater mastery over the Force than Anakin, and he managed to get his ass stomped by Dooku's Force prowess.

Sure, a huge legion of clones would've taken the Temple. Anakin's very notable achievement during the raid with Cin-which we do know the specifics of due to 'Order 66: Destroy all Jedi', as well as Serra Keto and Jocasta Nu, confirmed by Leland Chee here:
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=945
Okay, so he kills a librarian before she can respond and he out fights someone else. Again, no bearing on his Force power whatsoever. Regarding the O66 article, care to link it or post passages?

In regards to strict force ability,
Which is all I'm actually trying to debate here, as I've made very clear numerous times already. . .

we also have Anakin able to use the force to control Durge's mind-and Durge had in earlier comics proved almost immune to such things- as well as using the force to send Durge's escape pod into a sun....that right there does seem a nice display of ability
Where is this? I remember him tossing mines at Durge to cripple him, allowing him to fall into an escape pod, and then launch the thing and nudge into a path that would lead to the sun - but I don't remember the "mind control" part. And really, you act as if knocking an object into a certain path in zero gravity is a considerable feat.

And yes Faunus, even by a small margin he IS better than him. You are downplaying his ability by stating that he "overpowered" Dooku, when that's a testament to his skill.
No, I'm not trying to downplay him at all. I even stated that he had one really good move on Dooku when he severed his hands, at that was through skill. But the part that everyone seems to hail as proof for his undeniable superiority is when he drives him back. In the novel, this is "zoMg anikin nox litesbr in2 shulde w/ strngth?!!" In the movie, it's represented in a much better fashion. And honestly, I don't see Anakin beating Dooku in a serious confrontation - the Count has dueling skills that at least rival those of Anakin, but more importantly he has vastly superior Force prowess to call on. And if he's not high on martini-inspired arrogance like he was in RotS, he could very likely win.

Now, I'm done with saber-related stuff. It hurts my brain.

Well, the force superiority should be obvious, it's the dueling discrepancies that get people arguing.