Anakin (ROTS) v. Sidious (ROTS)

A considerable feat which we have next to zero details about. And Count Dooku is an old aristocrat. But he also happens to be Mr. Lee, and a total badass. Nick Gillard is a raving fanboy.

Well, going by the novel and videogame. . . meh, I'll go along. Jurokk, being the gatekeeper, got stabbed in the face without so much as grabbing his lightsaber. So, Anakin gets no credit for that whatsoever.

And Jocasta Nu? The librarian who probably hasn't seen combat since before TPM? Yeah, right.

I fail to see how this compares with Dooku's considerable list of accomplishments that are actually related to his skill in the Force; in case you hadn't noticed, none of your examples show any remarkable skill on his part whatsoever.

Again, I've already stated that I believe Anakin to have more power available to him than Dooku. However, it's very clear that he does not come close to having the considerable degree of control and mastery that the Count displays. Hell, Obi-Wan has greater mastery over the Force than Anakin, and he managed to get his ass stomped by Dooku's Force prowess.

Okay, so he kills a librarian before she can respond and he out fights someone else. Again, no bearing on his Force power whatsoever. Regarding the O66 article, care to link it or post passages?

Which is all I'm actually trying to debate here, as I've made very clear numerous times already. . .

Where is this? I remember him tossing mines at Durge to cripple him, allowing him to fall into an escape pod, and then launch the thing and nudge into a path that would lead to the sun - but I don't remember the "mind control" part. And really, you act as if knocking an object into a certain path in zero gravity is a considerable feat.

No, I'm not trying to downplay him at all. I even stated that he had one really good move on Dooku when he severed his hands, at that was through skill. But the part that everyone seems to hail as proof for his undeniable superiority is when he drives him back. In the novel, this is "zoMg anikin nox litesbr in2 shulde w/ strngth?!!" In the movie, it's represented in a much better fashion. And honestly, I don't see Anakin beating Dooku in a serious confrontation - the Count has dueling skills that at least rival those of Anakin, but more importantly he has vastly superior Force prowess to call on. And if he's not high on martini-inspired arrogance like he was in RotS, he could very likely win.

The fact is, Anakin's saber style focuses on power and Anakin used that to defeat Dooku's Makashi. Fact is, that's using your advantage to overcome an opponent's disadvantage and that made Anakin better in that instance...

While Anakin lacks Dooku's fine control over his power, he's still got it in abundance and directed fully upon Dooku, the result could be very bad for the Count. You also can't remove the arrogance from Dooku so easily, given Dooku's very nature.

The only thing I'm disputing is the claim that Anakin has superior Force abilities when compared to the likes of Dooku or Sidious.

No one is suggesting that Anakin > Dooku in Force prowess as of Revenge of the Sith, let alone the Emperor. At most, we've said that Lucas implied in that one interview that Anakin's strength was equal to Palpatine's as of RotS; if he's equal to Palpatine, he's better than Dooku (and by quite a bit), and there's no disputing it.

But that's a big if.

The only thing I'll argue is lightsaber prowess.

Edit: By the way, Lightsnake is correct. The script, the novelization, the Visual Guide, and the New Essential Chronology state that Anakin's victory over Dooku was a legitimate one. He simply became a force that Dooku just literally could not stop at that point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We have quite a bit more other than that on Cin besides Nick...moreover, we have more than a bit on the fight with Cin. In fact, we do have all the details.

You mean stabbing him before he could get his lightsaber?

a former council member described as a skilled master, ready to fight to save the younglings? Come on, now...

He lifts Jocasta up in the air with the Force, immobilizing her completely and runs her through. I think the Force plays a BIT of a part....and not to mention the Durge fight..

Obi-wan was unable to so much as budge Durge with the Force-in fact, very few Jedi ever could.

Anakin is able to control Durge with the Force, throw Durge across the room with the Force and using the Force, directs a pod into the sun.

Does he have the same control Dooku does? No. I fail to see how this'll matter if Anakin unleashes it fully on one person.

I consider forcing a large object off a course into a sun as certainly pretty impressive....in the comic, we see Anakin, concentrating, hands outstretched as he diverts the pod....

also, Durge is NOT put out of commission by the mines...it melts his voicebox and blows off his helmet, but Anakin ends up having to fight him on a very physical scale and forces him in the pod with the force...Obsession #3 for reference.

If Anakin goes out on Dooku like that, Dooku will lose more often than not.

The fact is, Anakin's saber style focuses on power and Anakin used that to defeat Dooku's Makashi. Fact is, that's using your advantage to overcome an opponent's disadvantage and that made Anakin better in that instance...

While Anakin lacks Dooku's fine control over his power, he's still got it in abundance and directed fully upon Dooku, the result could be very bad for the Count.

Fantastic, Faunus. You really beat me to the punch. Well said.

I will say that Cin is said to be a bit of a badass.

Meh. I hate Gillard with a burning passion. Ray Park all the way!

I don't see the argument. As of ROTS, Dooku has more control and mastery over the force than Anakin, while Anakin has the raw abilities on his side. However, those abilities are meaningless against someone as experienced as Dooku, and he will almost always lose in a force battle. Now as of ANH, he is superior to Dooku because not only has he mastered the force and gained control, but he's had 20 extra years to study the dark side. This isn't a debate really. Dooku>Anakin as of ROTS.

Originally posted by Faunus
Meh. I hate Gillard with a burning passion. Ray Park all the way!

Lmao.

In Labyrinth of Evil, Count Dooku listed upper-tier Jedi that, in a duel, would make him pity General Grievous (he was listing Jedi who would essentially kick the General's ass).

The same General Grievous that Count Dooku mentions is more dangerous than Ventress in Dark Rendezvous, the same General Grievous who soundly defeated Ventress and Durge simultaneously, and - most especially - the same General Grievous that Dooku admitted he was hard-pressed to defeat.

So we conceivably have a guy who is on par with Obi-Wan in skill, who would defeat Grievous, and potentially make Dooku work for his victory.

And Anakin curbstomped him. I sincerely believe you all underestimate his raw power. In the context of a lightsaber fight, it really would go a long way.

Originally posted by Faunus
Would you like to provide some?

Certainly: The visual dictionary mentions Cin as an extremely formidable Jedi Master and an exceptional duelist, who's mastered the first sixth forms. He's the Battlemaster of the Jedi Temple, and I believe Dooku held him in very high esteem-enough to mention him as one of the Order's best...

In the fight with Cin, Whie and Bene: Anakin starts by killing Whie instantly and engages Cin while force choking Bene. Cin is described as being 'no match' for Anakin despite 'formidable skills' and Anakin slices through his shoulder and watches him die.

[quote]
The guy wasn't expecting a fight, as was evidenced by his actually greeting Anakin. He just opened the gate, and Anakin stabbed him. Impressive.

They do have a conversation before hand and Anakin kills him before he can react. that should count for something
[Quote]
And the fact that she - the one who hasn't seen combat in 13+ years - is probably one of the better Jedi in the Temple at the time of the Purge speaks for the complete lack of resistance faced by Anakin and the clones.

I've played the game, LS. He just picks her up and pulls her onto his saber.

I seem to clearly remember him doing just that to Obi-Wan, and still getting put on his ass. The same Obi-Wan who got tossed around like a ragdoll and couldn't do anything about it. No, Count Dooku can actually manage to successfully direct all of his considerable power at his opponents. Anakin, obviously, can't.

OK I'm confused. So Obiwan couldn't force push Durge, but Grievous was more powerful than Durge, and yet Obiwan wtfpwned Grievous with a force push. Man, I love the inconsistencies. GL needs to stop rolling around in his cash and start filling in the blanks.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
OK I'm confused. So Obiwan couldn't force push Durge, but Grievous was more powerful than Durge, and yet Obiwan wtfpwned Grievous with a force push. Man, I love the inconsistencies. GL needs to stop rolling around in his cash and start filling in the blanks.

General Grievous managed to incapacitate Durge, not terminate or permenantly defeat him. The difference is that Grievous was (of course) the superior tactition by far, and he was more skilled.

Interesting. In terms of sheer power, was he not the superior as well?

Whatever LS; I don't see a point in arguing this anymore if you're going to skirt around every one of my points. I don't like repeating myself, so I don't think I will.

Don't talk to me about 'skirting points,' Faunus. I acknowledge Dooku has a greater control over the Force than Anakin does. Whether that will help him any more than it did when he needed it most on board the Invisible Hand is another matter.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's flawd. OH, why's this? IT contradicts your opinion? Considering there aren't points where the visual dictionary contradicts the movie, your point is incredibly flawed.
Especially considering it remains a part of SW canon that, shockingly, agree with one another...in fact, Nai, the only thing that doesn't agree with you.

Lmao, Lightsnake. It contradicts the movie and because of that it is flawed. Where did you see Anakin and Obi-Wan using different forms or developing uber teamwork against Dooku ? I must have missed that one in the movie.

Oh, yes. What portion of this would it be? Oh, right, the Lucas approved portion that states they hold back to draw Dooku into a false sense of security?

Lmao, Lightsnake. It was Lucas approved, yes. But based on an older version of Lucas vision of the fight. The movie shows pretty clear that they aren't holding back unless you want to tell me that they actually fight better while holding back and using unfamiliar styles than with their actual styles while not holding back.

Now, then, where in the movies do Obi-wan and Anakin state 'We're using Forms V and III!"
Right. what was the point you're making here?

The two handed overhead super-power slash which is Anakin's initial attack in the fight actually screams "Hello. I'm using Djem So !" while Obi-Wan's close distance blaster bolt deflection against the droids says "Hello. I'm using Soresu !" Not to mention that they - if you want to apply the novel timing on the movie - did fight better against Dooku using faked styles while holding back than with their original forms (when Dooku completely owned them). What was your point again ?

Oh, and it's great the visual dictionary does indeed have things to say on characters' motivations and thoughts, especially considering it's putting down information that should be obvious visually.

Lmao, Lightsnake. That one was just great. The Visual Dictionary is made to give additional information on things appearing visibly in the movie. Motivations and thoughts clearly don't belong to that department.

Yes, and if you bother to read the novelization, Dooku nearly dies because he's taking them too lightly, gets serious, regains control and then leads Anakin on a merry dance, gets overconfident and then realizes "Hey, maybe I shouldn't have provoked this kid, he's way stronger than I thought!"
The latter portion of that? Happens right in the films. The movie shows Anakin defeating him when provoked, the ROTS novelization has Dooku's own thoughts-which according to Chee, etc, etc- the visual dictionary, chronology, Visual Guide....

You are somehow again failing to get the point, Lightsnake. Nowhere in the movie is Dooku in any kind of danger until he provokes Anakin. It doesn't matter what happened in the novel - it didn't happen on screen. On screen Dooku is completely controlling the fight until the point where he provokes Anakin.

I'm not even arguing that Anakin was too powerful for Dooku to control after Dooku provoked him. The point is that Dooku could still have unleashed a barrage of force lightning on Anakin (as we saw him doing this while fighting - and he's still using only one hand against Anakin) while Anakin was forcing him backwards. Not to mention that he could easily have killed or defeated Anakin when Anakin was on the ground, hadn't he taken the time to drop that metal construction on the already knocked out Kenobi.

Again: maybe you ought to reevaluate your opinion just a bit when everything but you says you're wrong on this subject

Which is another nice irrelevant missdirection because you seem to argue a completely different subject than I do...

And when that came under any sort of scrutiny in this debate until you mentioned it now?

Tell it to Chee, not me.
Next point, please.

Nope. I'd rather let it Chee tell to you:
"G-canon is "George Lucas" canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon."

That's the second time I quoted this to you. If something is not fitting the latest interpretation of events within the SW universe by Lucas it's simply C-Canon. Lucas may have approved the novel version completely, even word by word. Point is: After that he obviously changed certain things in his vision making the interpretation of events offered by the novel (or the VD for that matter) pretty useless, because they don't mirror what happened in the movie any longer.

Based on one single force push? That still sends Obi-wan flying back harder?

The point is that Obi-Wan was fully capable to put up a suitable defence against Anakin's force attack and even affect Anakin himself, while he appeared to be completely defenseless when Dooku force choked him, lifted him from the ground and tossed him across the room knocking him out.

Dooku himself realizes that 'Anakin is more powerful than he had imagined?'

Yes. But how does "more powerful than Dooku had imagined" translate into "more powerful than Dooku himself" ? Going by sheer potential Anakin definetly was more powerful than Dooku but he wasn't capable of controlling all of his potential yet. Not even remotely close to it.

Palpatine comments in the movie Anakin>Dooku?
Anything else?

I wonder where Sidious said that Anakin is superior to Dooku ? Because he mentioned he will get himself a younger and more powerful apprentice ? Of course. But he was thinking in long terms all the time in a similar fashion he did when telling Yoda, that Anakin will become more powerful than Yoda and himself. Doesn't mean that Anakin already was more powerful in RotS.

Ah, right. Palpatine must be referring to '[potential'...not 'power' as in 'power' when we just saw Anakin defeat Dooku when Dooku taunted him about not 'using his anger and hate' and in a similar state as when he defeats Dooku, Anakin simultaneously defeats Cin Drallig and his students.

And in a similar state he can't overpower Obi-Wan and ends up with taking a nice lava bath. It's a little bit irritating for me that people come here and try to give 239.5 billions reasons for Anakin losing against Obi-Wan instead of coming up with a single reason why the people Anakin actually defeated were killed by him. One could actually develop the oppinion that this place is littered with Anakin fanboys.

As you said yourself: Dooku was surprised by Anakin's power because he didn't expect Anakin to be as powerful as he was once using the Dark Side. Obvious conclusion: Anakin took a surprised Dooku out. What would have happened if Dooku - like Kenobi - would have been aware of the extend of Anakin's power in terms of force powers and lightsaber mastery ? Do you want to argue that Obi-Wan is superior to Dooku in one of that departments ? I hope not. Obvious conclusion: Dooku would have been very well capable of defeating Anakin, had he been aware of Anakin's actual power like Obi-Wan was.

And the temple ? Yay. You are of course aware of the fact that the Jedi must have been pretty much surprised when their "great hope" the "Chosen One" the guy that was said to "bring balance to the force" and to "destroy the Sith" came marching into their freaking temple with a legion of Clone Troopers and actually attacked them. I guess they might have been a little bit shocked because of that. And going by the influence the death off some Jedi had on Yoda (when Order 66 was given) I guess that feeling the death of hundrets or thousands of Jedi right next to you might also have a bad influence on your fighting abilties if you happen to be a Jedi yourself.

Different fights, different environments, different circumstance.
The movie, AKA, G-canon says clearly Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Where in the world do you pull 'potential' from? Why do you ignore in RODV that Palpatine tells Anakin if Dooku had been more powerful, he'd have ended up walking over Anakin's corpse to sit at Palpatine's right hand?

Well. The movie says so ? I was under the impression that Sidious says so. Haven't people lectured you enough already about the fact that character oppinions happen to be fallible ? And you really believe that words of Sidious in RoDV ? You really think that Sidious would sacrifice Anakin for keeping an apprentice like Dooku who was not only less powerful than Sidious but also older - meaning that keeping him as apprentice would ultimately have lessened the power of the Sith ? No really, dude.

anything that really backs up your opinion, Nai? Anything that even makes a dent in anything official?

You mean aside from the movie that shows us that Anakin and Obi-Wan are equal when it comes to actual force mastery, when the same movie shows us that Dooku is far superior to Obi-Wan in that department ?

But, hey, why even bother taking this into consideration? I don't recall many hints of the idea that Dooku was supposed to throw the fight in the movie...

You mean aside of Dooku's face when Sidious commands Anakin to kill him ?

Actually Nai, in regards to what Sidious said in RODV, yes I believe it. If Dooku was more powerful than Anakin, it would make no sense for Sidious to keep Anakin since Sidious wants the strongest apprentice possible. So he'd keep Dooku and meanwhile look for someone more powerful.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Lmao, Lightsnake. It [b]contradicts the movie and because of that it is flawed. Where did you see Anakin and Obi-Wan using different forms or developing uber teamwork against Dooku ? I must have missed that one in the movie.

Lmao, Lightsnake. It was Lucas approved, yes. But based on an older version of Lucas vision of the fight. The movie shows pretty clear that they aren't holding back unless you want to tell me that they actually fight better while holding back and using unfamiliar styles than with their actual styles while not holding back.

The two handed overhead super-power slash which is Anakin's initial attack in the fight actually screams "Hello. I'm using Djem So !" while Obi-Wan's close distance blaster bolt deflection against the droids says "Hello. I'm using Soresu !" Not to mention that they - if you want to apply the novel timing on the movie - did fight better against Dooku using faked styles while holding back than with their original forms (when Dooku completely owned them). What was your point again ?

Lmao, Lightsnake. That one was just great. The Visual Dictionary is made to give additional information on things appearing visibly in the movie. Motivations and thoughts clearly don't belong to that department.

You are somehow again failing to get the point, Lightsnake. Nowhere in the movie is Dooku in any kind of danger until he provokes Anakin. It doesn't matter what happened in the novel - it didn't happen on screen. On screen Dooku is completely controlling the fight until the point where he provokes Anakin.

I'm not even arguing that Anakin was too powerful for Dooku to control after Dooku provoked him. The point is that Dooku could still have unleashed a barrage of force lightning on Anakin (as we saw him doing this while fighting - and he's still using only one hand against Anakin) while Anakin was forcing him backwards. Not to mention that he could easily have killed or defeated Anakin when Anakin was on the ground, hadn't he taken the time to drop that metal construction on the already knocked out Kenobi.

Nope. I'd rather let it Chee tell to you:
"G-canon is "George Lucas" canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon."

That's the second time I quoted this to you. If something is not fitting the latest interpretation of events within the SW universe by Lucas it's simply C-Canon. Lucas may have approved the novel version completely, even word by word. Point is: After that he obviously changed certain things in his vision making the interpretation of events offered by the novel (or the VD for that matter) pretty useless, because they don't mirror what happened in the movie any longer.

The point is that Obi-Wan was fully capable to put up a suitable defence against Anakin's force attack and even affect Anakin himself, while he appeared to be completely defenseless when Dooku force choked him, lifted him from the ground and tossed him across the room knocking him out.

Yes. But how does "more powerful than Dooku had imagined" translate into "more powerful than Dooku himself" ? Going by sheer potential Anakin definetly was more powerful than Dooku but he wasn't capable of controlling all of his potential yet. Not even remotely close to it.

I wonder where Sidious said that Anakin is superior to Dooku ? Because he mentioned he will get himself a younger and more powerful apprentice ? Of course. But he was thinking in long terms all the time in a similar fashion he did when telling Yoda, that Anakin will become more powerful than Yoda and himself. Doesn't mean that Anakin already was more powerful in RotS.

And in a similar state he can't overpower Obi-Wan and ends up with taking a nice lava bath. It's a little bit irritating for me that people come here and try to give 239.5 billions reasons for Anakin losing against Obi-Wan instead of coming up with a single reason why the people Anakin actually defeated were killed by him. One could actually develop the oppinion that this place is littered with Anakin fanboys.

As you said yourself: Dooku was surprised by Anakin's power because he didn't expect Anakin to be as powerful as he was once using the Dark Side. Obvious conclusion: Anakin took a surprised Dooku out. What would have happened if Dooku - like Kenobi - would have been aware of the extend of Anakin's power in terms of force powers and lightsaber mastery ? Do you want to argue that Obi-Wan is superior to Dooku in one of that departments ? I hope not. Obvious conclusion: Dooku would have been very well capable of defeating Anakin, had he been aware of Anakin's actual power like Obi-Wan was.

And the temple ? Yay. You are of course aware of the fact that the Jedi must have been pretty much surprised when their "great hope" the "Chosen One" the guy that was said to "bring balance to the force" and to "destroy the Sith" came marching into their freaking temple with a legion of Clone Troopers and actually attacked them. I guess they might have been a little bit shocked because of that. And going by the influence the death off some Jedi had on Yoda (when Order 66 was given) I guess that feeling the death of hundrets or thousands of Jedi right next to you might also have a bad influence on your fighting abilties if you happen to be a Jedi yourself.

Well. The movie says so ? I was under the impression that Sidious says so. Haven't people lectured you enough already about the fact that character oppinions happen to be fallible ? And you really believe that words of Sidious in RoDV ? You really think that Sidious would sacrifice Anakin for keeping an apprentice like Dooku who was not only less powerful than Sidious but also older - meaning that keeping him as apprentice would ultimately have lessened the power of the Sith ? No really, dude.

Yes, Nai, considering I've seen the opinions based on what someone in G-canon says. Or is Palpatine aiming for a totally nefarious scheme that requires a lie to General Grievous? Considering there is absolutely no direct motive behind the lie, the context makes it pretty clear Palpatine isn't lying in either scenarios and we have numerous sources offhand saying that Anakin's power>Dooku, including one that was personally reviewed by Lucas, I'd say yeah, it's pretty open and shut, unless you suddenly want to claim they're all invalid in favor of an opinion which not one single piece of official work supports whatsoever.

You mean aside from the movie that shows us that Anakin and Obi-Wan are equal when it comes to actual force mastery, when the same movie shows us that Dooku is far superior to Obi-Wan in that department ?

You mean aside of Dooku's face when Sidious commands Anakin to kill him ? [/B]

Even if Dooku was stronger then Anakin, that doesn't mean much. He was about three and a half times the Chosen One's age. Sidious neaded new aprentice. Someone with more potential, someone younger, someone that was more easy to manipulate. Dooku had his own ambitions, he wasn't just another Maul...He used to be a Jedi master for crist's sake...One of the better ones 😄

Originally posted by Lightsnake Quite potentially because Obi-wan is able to hold his own given Anakin's current lack of sanity, control and knowing Anakin's style backwards and forwards and winning in the end due to Anakin's arrogance in combination with the environment. Hardly a matter of what happened with Obi-wan and Dooku.

And for the record, Anakin himself states in RoDV that he "wasn't strong enough" to beat Obi-Wan; hence his getting mauled. His arrogance and overestimation of his own power got to him, yes, but just as you say Dooku's arrogance is with him forever, so is Anakin's. So any version of Anakin willing to fight Obi-Wan to the death is always going to have that hot-headed streak, and so will usually be met with defeat.

Uh, no. Dooku is described as using all of his energy just trying to holding Anakin off and is still slaughtered like a sheep regardless.

Anakin defeats a Dooku describes as using all of his power to fight for his life.

If Dooku had been aware of the extent of Anakin's power, he would've likely surrendered on the spot.

You overlooked Anakin effortlessly defeating Cin Drallig, by the way.

Hm, would Palpatine keeps Dooku around if Anakin were less powerful? Let me think abou- yes.

He makes it clear to Dooku in Labyrinth of Evil if Anakin isn't strong enough, he's expendable, and that if he 'gets the upper hand', Palpatine will save Dooku/

since when does age even enter into this? A Jedi of Dooku's power can live another ten-twenty years easily

and Palpatine already had a lavish set up plan with Dooku.

You're telling me he's going to throw away one of the most powerful Jedi the Order ever produced who got stronger under Palpatine, for an untested boy on an entire assumption ? Do you really think Palpatine would be willing to give up Dooku if Anakin wasn't an already worthy replacement in power and ability?

i'm sorry, I forget where a single Force Push-that hits Obi-wan harder than it does Anakin- is definitive proof of anything.
Different fights, different scenarios. Anakin is not in control. Obi-wan is.

Both are hit and Anakin doesn't hit the ground as hard nor does he stay down as long

That's wonderful! I asked Chee questions on the matter-and you saw the results.
So, according to Chee, thoughts, narrative and the like could definitely be considered G-canon if they are non-contradictory. Stover himself had something to say on what constituted Star Wars fact on the matter and since the sources don't contradict, I'm very willing to take Chee's word on the matter long before I even consider yours. Unless Lucas makes a special edition of the prequels that goes against all narration and thought process, it stands

It says anything created by the authors is to be considered C-canon. Nothing about contradictions. If it's created by the authors, it's C-canon. Since we don't see the thoughts of Anakin and Obi-Wan, everything we are told about it is to be considered C-canon. Since we don't see Anakin and Obi-Wan switching up forms but the authors tell us it happens, it's C-canon.

Hell, let's pretend they do switch forms between the first and second sequences. The first - when they're supposedly faking - ends with all of them standing up, exchanging one-liners and being happy. The second - when they're supposed to be all serious and adherent to their new forms - Obi-Wan gets put on his ass. Now, going all out Djem So and Soresu, Anakin meet Dooku at the stairs and what happens? They get destroyed. Damn, that's a perfect argument to use in support of the Jedi!