Darth Bane vs Darth Sion

True but what is there to indicate it that he uses it as a killer technique during a duel? I believe he uses that technique as he used it on kreia to cut her connection off the force but i believe during a duel timing is critical

He tried using it against the exile and he may have used it against Traya. Oh, why doesn't he just cut Malak or Revan's connection to the force completely off? Or can they block that? I don't think so.

A god which got killed by an average jedi. If i go by what you say sidious and luke are literally gods in star wars which they are. Nihilus only has one great technique, even some one like dooku beats him in other aspects of the force like mastery and skill save for TK which nihilus has over dooku so no, i wouldnt consider nihilus a demi god

You can't say he was an average Jedi. You're going by what the Council said and this just doesn't cover it as proof. They could be emotionally charged words. You can't tell me an average Jedi just goes around defeating three Sith Lords and their assassins AND what may or may not canonically an entire temple of disciplined Sith students in one sitting ... Just being an average Jedi. You cannot prove that Dooku can defeat Nihilus in every other aspect of the force! You're just choosing characters and coming out with random figures.

Oh? Yet she attempted to kill the exile

Wasn't the Exile an average Jedi, though? Wouldn't Traya be able to kill an Average Jedi? Or Sion? Or Nihilus?

Apparantly they are right as we have yet to see anything remarkable to be done by the exile

Wow ... Read above?

Care to explain what else she did was interesting? To be honest im willing to listen to what you have to say

She taught Revan, Nihilus and Sion? Not interesting enough?

Remember how you said Nihilus' technique could be blocked? A quote from Traya to debunk that:

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled."

Here's her manipulation score:

"She also tempted the Mandalorian leader, Mandalore, with knowledge of Revan's fate in order to ensure that he would not betray the Exile."

"She lied to the Exile at the beginning of their quest, claiming that the Jedi Council was responsible for the Exile's being severed from the Force. Kreia knew this would lead the Exile to seek out the surviving members of the Jedi Council, which would allow Kreia to kill them. On Onderon, Kreia lied to Colonel Tobin about the existence of many Jedi in a Jedi Academy on Telos. Kreia did this because she knew that Tobin would relay this to his true Master, Darth Nihilus, who would not be able to resist the chance to replenish himself and would recklessly assault Telos. This left Nihilus vulnerable to the assault of the Mandalorians and the Exile."

Traits similar to powerful sith?

"Kreia had the ability to wield three or more lightsabers in combat, holding each of them aloft with the Force, and having them fight with a will of their own. This ability is also associated with the ancient Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun."

A power like Nihilus?

"Kreia possessed the ability to single-handedly strip others of the Force, utterly robbing their bodies of the mystical energy field."

Of course you can, just that you have yet to do it as you still need to back up some of your claims with sources. I do admire the fact however your using logic in this debate as compared to some other members. Im just lazy to click spell check

I apologise for the insults

It goes both way, as I said previously. You haven't provided much for the likes of proof.

Ok i'm sorry for the insults then as i am making a fool of myself.

But let me ask a question what makes you think who he encountered is strong? Can you prove that? The answer is most likely no.

I can't prove it! You're right! Here's the thing, though; You're trying to call them DEFINITELY weak, as you did in your last post. I'm not sitting here trying to call them 100% strong. Stop strawmanning.

No but the fact that she respected him due to his power, She even described him as the heart of the force.

She had an infatuation for him. She even said she'd die for him. This still, yet again, is meaningless. Who wouldn't admire their prize student?

And revans greatest feat > kreias, Revan used the dark side energies of malachor to destroy the entire mandalorian crusaders i believe. This statement came from many members here and i see no reason for them to lie, It too problably came from kreia

Wow, he killed Mandalorian Crusaders. What does this have to do with attempted to destroy powerful Sith Lords? Hmm? Are you just throwing out random features? This possibly proves your fanboyism.

Did i say she was? The archives i had mentioned was the one in korriban during the brotherhood of darkness era.

It doesn't MATTER. You're strawmanning yet again. We were comparing Revan to Traya and saying Revan holds more knowledge than the archives is just a feature throw. What if Traya has more knowledge than those archives AND the Sith Archives? We're comparing the two, not the Jedi Archives and Revan .... TRAYA AND REVAN.

More powerful in what sense? Due to his drain? Again that is the only advantage he has against revan, revan clearly beats him in all other aspects of the force and the feats which revan did clearly indicates he is more powerful than nihilus

The "Only advantage"? What ... Stripping Revan of the force is Nihilus' "Only advantage"? You're a funny guy.

Regardless, how can you prove Revan defeats Nihilus in every other aspect? Is this the proof you speak of? If so, I'm unimpressed.

Really? I was going by your logic. "Zomg traya is a fabulous manipulator and that is relevant to battle!!! She can persuade malak or revan to lose!!!!!" Right this point holds no water at all seeing that revan himself can apply dun moch or simply chose to ignore what kreias saying

You're not following my logic at all. So.. Revan would mindlessly kill Traya and ignore her because YOU said so?

It is relevant to battle. It's an important feature of hers.

How do you know he would? He obviously would know kreia would try to wear him down during battle and thus chose not to listen to her

Really? He would obviously know this ... How? The events of Traya becoming a manipulator happened AFTER Traya had been training Revan.

Your proof is wildly unsupported.

Being described as the best dueler of the kotor era? The fact that he is a saber prodigy and that kreia isnt? What proof do you have that kreia is a better duelist?

Described by who? A Saber prodigy? Who said that as well?

I don't have proof that Traya is a better duelist but YET AGAIN I'm not trying to pass her off as a better duelist.

GG has a past of slaying jedi too yet got owned by obi wan kenobi

Your point? You act like Kenobi was a pushover, despite defeating the chosen one and killing Darth Maul. Besides, GG is completely different than Darth Sion. Stop comparing entities that are completely different. Christ almighty.

But the fact remains is that only on malachor is where he is truly "invincible". So because he is "immortal" even the strongest force user wouldnt be able to defeat him?

That's untrue.

"He later duels with the Exile on Korriban, the dark forces of which make him unstoppable; the Exile has no choice but to flee."

The Exile left because Sion was UNMATCHED on Korriban because there was darkened energies. I told you earlier; When he is around darkened energies, it makes him practically immortal.

So? Its only the incredible dark side energy of malachor which allowed him not fall countless times, Again he himself stated that

He didn't say it was ONLY Malachor that provided him with this newly found tolerance. Stop changing things around.

Vader didnt, bane didnt, exar kun didnt, palpatine didnt hell even malak and revan didnt need them

Vader didn't? 501st.

Palpatine didn't? Jesus christ ... HIS ENTIRE PLAN was based upon other people doing his dirty work FOR him including disabling the Jedi in O66.

Malak? Is that a Joke? He had the Starforge filled to the brim with Sith Disciples.

Revan had a group of people helping him to achieve his goals the whole time.

Again, all these people you mentioned ARE NOT Sion.

Thats true but again the "immortality" and ability to never fall takes place on malachor as he himself stated. God will you just except this and move on? Because going by your logic id doubt Luke would even beat him in a fight due to him having the ability to hold his flesh together

You're missing the point here ... Immortal on Malachor, yes, but he is difficult to defeat in other places seeing as he can hold his body together with sheer force power.

Anywhere with darkened energies makes him practically immortal.

WTF? Luke is not a part of this debate. Get over it. Quickly.

The fact weather he can hold his body together anywhere in the galaxy is irrelevant, Its the fact that he is completely unable to die on malachor as the dark side energy flows through his cracks which gives him the ability to never die unless he gives up.

It's not just there. Korriban as well. He can't be defeated where darkened energies are present. Independently, he's still a powerhouse.

Malak himself was stated to be unstoppable on the star forge seeing that the dark side energy- not the captive jedis were increasing his power. And you said "as seen in malachor" so you do agree with what i said then.

Malak got stopped physically. He wasn't that powerful. Sion had to be disabled via mental persuasion because he could not PHYSICALLY be halted.

WTF is this bullshit? The captive Jedi gave Malak his power. When you take that away from him, he becomes defeatable.

That doesnt equate to sion being more powerful than malak as you have yet to prove

It goes both ways, son.

Yet you claim shes a great duelist

Where did I say this? Don't lie on top of everything else.

"Might" be? Do you have anything to backup this ridiculous assertion? Because if the force can shield lightsabers then i guess it can protect force users thus then not needing a saber in the first place? The exile didnt dismantle them easily simply because of gameplay mechanics, Then i can simply say the exile couldnt kill a stupid soldier easily despite beating him several times with a saber.

The Exile had to personally attack the hilts with his own Lightsaber.

Then i can simply say the exile couldnt kill a stupid soldier easily despite beating him several times with a saber.

That is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever seen. In my life. It had nothing to do with that sect of the debate by ANY means.

Again a lightsaber cuts through just about everything save for sith alchemy swords, orbalisks and mandalorian iron

LOL, is there a point to you stating this?

And in most cases, manipulation wouldnt work in battle ESPECIALLY if the opponent is a strong minded force user

It doesn't matter how STRONG they are. Manipulation wouldn't wear off because of someone's strength in the force. Jesus, what is wrong with you?

Lol thousand i just read through your points so far it is severely flawed and i will hand you your ass later when i get back.

So far you have yet to prove anything while i have for the most part.

And just one question. I am most curious to where you got those quotes from

Again, ignored. Ah well.

Hord, nice bit of information. Thanks!

THOUSAND YOU IGNORED ME AND JANUS AGAIN! It is not helping you at all ignoring us we bring up really good points that you are missing at on. And no problem Janus.

Originally posted by Thousand
Remember how you said Nihilus' technique could be blocked? A quote from Traya to debunk that:

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled."

I have had this discussion before and it was not a drain that Nihilus did other wise it would be orange since that is the color for the drain both in gameplay and cutscenes for both kotor games. Quite frankly it is still a mystery what happened to her. And the technique that Manslayer is referring to not really a fense the stops the drain. The technique loops you out of the force so u are basically not force sensitive then u could loop back in and be able to use the force.(manslayer correct me if i didnt explain it right) So he can't drain the force out of non force sensitives. AND PLEASE RESPOND TO ME AND JANUS'S POST FROM THE LAST PAGE OR TWO!

Originally posted by Thousand
He tried using it against the exile and he may have used it against Traya. Oh, why doesn't he just cut Malak or Revan's connection to the force completely off? Or can they block that? I don't think so.

And that Revan was the first person to walk on malachor's surface for MANY YEARS! So all the knowledge would still be there eliminating the idea of plunders taking the knowledge like what had happened on korriban.

Originally posted by Thousand
"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled."

"Kreia had the ability to wield three or more lightsabers in combat, holding each of them aloft with the Force, and having them fight with a will of their own. This ability is also associated with the ancient Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun."

It doesn't MATTER. You're strawmanning yet again. We were comparing Revan to Traya and saying Revan holds more knowledge than the archives is just a feature throw. What if Traya has more knowledge than those archives AND the Sith Archives? We're comparing the two, not the Jedi Archives and Revan .... TRAYA AND REVAN.

The "Only advantage"? What ... Stripping Revan of the force is Nihilus' "Only advantage"? You're a funny guy.

Regardless, how can you prove Revan defeats Nihilus in every other aspect? Is this the proof you speak of? If so, I'm unimpressed.

Originally posted by Thousand
.Regardless, how can you prove Revan defeats Nihilus in every other aspect? Is this the proof you speak of? If so, I'm unimpressed.

Nihilus has been in known duel and he lost it to the exile so saying he is a "physical beast" as u said has no logic behind. Revan has been in duels against Mandalore the ultimate, Yusanis th elegendary echani general,defeated a Star forge powered Bastilla 4 times and defeated as Star Forge powered Malak how is described as nearly unstoppable.

And in the force department Nihilus only has the one technique and better tk then revan. Revan as sexy said has all of korriban and malachor V. In PoD Bane says that he had learn more from Revan's holocron than he learned on Korriban.(or something along those lines). Not only that but Bane was scarred of some of the techniques Revan knew. And he told Kaan about the thought bomb (which he also learned from Revan's holocron) so I doubt he would tell Kaan an attack that he was frightened of especially since Bane viewed kaan and the brotherhood as weak. This leads me to believe that the thought bomb was not the attack Bane was referring to that he was scared. And not to mention Revan's version of the force storm that killed several rakatan scouting parties at once in an instant.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Again, ignored. Ah well.

Hord, nice bit of information. Thanks!

Originally posted by Darth Hord
THOUSAND YOU IGNORED ME AND JANUS AGAIN! It is not helping you at all ignoring us we bring up really good points that you are missing at on. And no problem Janus.

Can you two stop harassing me? I don't have the time to reply to your arguments right now so I'm concentrating on one member for the time being. I apologize If I seem ignorant but I barely have the time to reply to the argument I'm having.

Yet at the same time, techniques always have a defense for them. Logically, Revan should have known the technique that Nihilus uses, but couldn't use it to the level of Nihilus because Nihilus is a wound in the force, which exponentially increases his attack.

Techniques always have a defense? It's made clear that there is not a defense for them.

Once more:

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."

What, the databank? Lol. There's no proof of Kun ever using 3 blades in the air. In fact that wouldn't make much sense since we've seen ALL of his lightsaber battles. Try again..

Well, then, that's that. I didn't know. I thought Exar had the ability to perform such a technique.

Traya is a historian yes, but in terms of dark side knowledge? Revan had all of Korriban and all of Malachor V. It's likely nobody has more knowledge than REvan except for Sidious.

That's ridiculous, considering Traya was a historian. She can predict the future as well. I'm pretty sure she has a good grip on the past.

Revan had information from Korriban and Malachor V? I had no idea. Can you show me what kind of information and how he obtained this information? I'm interested.

That's assuming he can.

Unless Revan's a void in the force, Nihilus is going to drain him. There is no defense for the technique we're speaking of.

Yet again. Nihilus.. One technique. Revan, everything learned from Korriban and Malachor V and no I don't have to quantify that because he plundered the cities of Malachor V while Nihilus...Didn't.

Yeah, Nihilus only destroyed an entire planet of force sensitives. It doesn't matter if he only has one technique. You put quantity over quality and you're appealing to a majority. That's considered a Logical fallacy.

Nihilus' one technique isn't just some dry force maneuver. It's a drain that eliminates the force completely and gives Nihilus power.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I have had this discussion before and it was not a drain that Nihilus did other wise it would be orange since that is the color for the drain both in gameplay and cutscenes for both kotor games. Quite frankly it is still a mystery what happened to her. And the technique that Manslayer is referring to not really a fense the stops the drain. The technique loops you out of the force so u are basically not force sensitive then u could loop back in and be able to use the force.(manslayer correct me if i didnt explain it right) So he can't drain the force out of non force sensitives. AND PLEASE RESPOND TO ME AND JANUS'S POST FROM THE LAST PAGE OR TWO!

You can't just instantly loop back into the force. It takes training, as shown with the Exile. If Nihilus drained her in that instant, he had the opportunity to kill her. She was stripped of her Lightsaber and the force. She was absolutely defenseless.

This could also mean Nihilus has another technique for draining the force, seeing as it was not visually noticeable. Maybe he can dish out a drain that eliminates the force THAT is completely unstoppable.

Originally posted by Thousand
Techniques always have a defense? It's made clear that there is not a defense for them.

Once more:

[b]"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."
Weird. I seem to recall a defense for Nihilus' technique involves looping out of the force. So you see, there is a technique? And all signs point to Revan knowing the same technique Nihilus knows, so your argument holds no water.

Revan had information from Korriban and Malachor V? I had no idea. Can you show me what kind of information and how he obtained this information? I'm interested.

Explain why I would have to quantify thequality of his knowledge? He plundered Korriban, which as we know, held ridiculous secrets, holocrons, etc. He plundered Malachor V which was a storehouse of ancient sith/truth sith knowledge. The fact that he did these two things already puts his quantity and quality of information beyond Kreia, and possibly everybody else save for Sidious. It also confirms that it's very logical Revan knew that draining technique.

[quote]Unless Revan's a void in the force, Nihilus is going to drain him. There is no defense for the technique we're speaking of.

Yeah, Nihilus only destroyed an entire planet of force sensitives. It doesn't matter if he only has one technique. You put quantity over quality and you're appealing to a majority. That's considered a Logical fallacy.

You know what? I'm just going to leave this debate and declare a complete loss on my part. It's your will if you wish to reply but I just don't have the time to reply to all these debates at the moment.

I'm sorry but I'm lifting my white flag on this particular argument.

Originally posted by Thousand
He tried using it against the exile and he may have used it against Traya. Oh, why doesn't he just cut Malak or Revan's connection to the force completely off? Or can they block that? I don't think so.

And if the force sever technique was so easy to use wouldnt nomi, luke and sidious be using it all the time on every opponent they face? Because it takes massive concentration to sever some one of the force and the only time nihilus would be able to do that is when he is at a distance.

Then id agree nihilus wins this case

Originally posted by Thousand

You can't say he was an average Jedi. You're going by what the Council said and this just doesn't cover it as proof. They could be emotionally charged words. You can't tell me an average Jedi just goes around defeating three Sith Lords and their assassins AND what may or may not canonically an entire temple of disciplined Sith students in one sitting ...

Originally posted by Thousand

Just being an average Jedi. You cannot prove that Dooku can defeat Nihilus in every other aspect of the force! You're just choosing characters and coming out with random figures.

Originally posted by Thousand

She taught Revan, Nihilus and Sion? Not interesting enough?

Originally posted by Thousand

Remember how you said Nihilus' technique could be blocked? A quote from Traya to debunk that:

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled."

Tell me again, has kreia even heard of the fallanasi looping technique?

Because she does not know all aspects of the force, she hasnt even heard of the fallanasi technique which the fallanasi people has and she is a fallible source of information.

Originally posted by Thousand

Here's her manipulation score:

"She also tempted the Mandalorian leader, Mandalore, with knowledge of Revan's fate in order to ensure that he would not betray the Exile."

"She lied to the Exile at the beginning of their quest, claiming that the Jedi Council was responsible for the Exile's being severed from the Force. Kreia knew this would lead the Exile to seek out the surviving members of the Jedi Council, which would allow Kreia to kill them. On Onderon, Kreia lied to Colonel Tobin about the existence of many Jedi in a Jedi Academy on Telos. Kreia did this because she knew that Tobin would relay this to his true Master, Darth Nihilus, who would not be able to resist the chance to replenish himself and would recklessly assault Telos. This left Nihilus vulnerable to the assault of the Mandalorians and the Exile."

Originally posted by Thousand

"Kreia had the ability to wield three or more lightsabers in combat, holding each of them aloft with the Force, and having them fight with a will of their own. This ability is also associated with the ancient Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun."

Again using simple force techniques such as TK to destroy lightsabers is easy seeing that sidious easily ripped leias lightsaber apart with the force

Originally posted by Thousand

A power like Nihilus?

"Kreia possessed the ability to single-handedly strip others of the Force, utterly robbing their bodies of the mystical energy field."

Originally posted by Thousand

It goes both way, as I said previously. You haven't provided much for the likes of proof.

Originally posted by Thousand

I can't prove it! You're right! Here's the thing, though; You're trying to call them DEFINITELY weak, as you did in your last post. I'm not sitting here trying to call them 100% strong. Stop strawmanning.

Originally posted by Thousand

Wow, he killed Mandalorian Crusaders. What does this have to do with attempted to destroy powerful Sith Lords? Hmm? Are you just throwing out random features? This possibly proves your fanboyism.

I ask again, what indicates kreia is stronger than revan? Prove up or shut up

Originally posted by Thousand

It doesn't MATTER. You're strawmanning yet again. We were comparing Revan to Traya and saying Revan holds more knowledge than the archives is just a feature throw.

Originally posted by Thousand

What if Traya has more knowledge than those archives AND the Sith Archives?

Originally posted by Thousand

We're comparing the two, not the Jedi Archives and Revan .... TRAYA AND REVAN.

Originally posted by Thousand

The "Only advantage"? What ... Stripping Revan of the force is Nihilus' "Only advantage"? You're a funny guy.

Originally posted by Thousand

Regardless, how can you prove Revan defeats Nihilus in every other aspect? Is this the proof you speak of? If so, I'm unimpressed.

Originally posted by Thousand

You're not following my logic at all. So.. Revan would mindlessly kill Traya and ignore her because YOU said so?

Originally posted by Thousand

It is relevant to battle. It's an important feature of hers.

Originally posted by Thousand

Described by who? A Saber prodigy? Who said that as well?

Originally posted by Thousand

I don't have proof that Traya is a better duelist but YET AGAIN I'm not trying to pass her off as a better duelist.

Originally posted by Thousand

Your point? You act like Kenobi was a pushover, despite defeating the chosen one and killing Darth Maul. Besides, GG is completely different than Darth Sion. Stop comparing entities that are completely different. Christ almighty.

Originally posted by Thousand

"He later duels with the Exile on Korriban, the dark forces of which make him unstoppable; the Exile has no choice but to flee."

Originally posted by Thousand

The Exile left because Sion was UNMATCHED on Korriban because there was darkened energies. I told you earlier; When he is around darkened energies, it makes him practically immortal.

This point is getting old so ill stop here

Originally posted by Thousand

You're missing the point here ... Immortal on Malachor, yes, but he is difficult to defeat in other places seeing as he can hold his body together with sheer force power.

Originally posted by Thousand

Malak got stopped physically. He wasn't that powerful. Sion had to be disabled via mental persuasion because he could not PHYSICALLY be halted.

Originally posted by Thousand

Where did I say this? Don't lie on top of everything else.

Originally posted by Thousand

The Exile had to personally attack the hilts with his own Lightsaber.

Originally posted by Thousand

That is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever seen. In my life. It had nothing to do with that sect of the debate by ANY means.

Originally posted by Thousand

It doesn't matter how STRONG they are. Manipulation wouldn't wear off because of someone's strength in the force. Jesus, what is wrong with you?

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I have had this discussion before and it was not a drain that Nihilus did other wise it would be orange since that is the color for the drain both in gameplay and cutscenes for both kotor games. Quite frankly it is still a mystery what happened to her. And the technique that Manslayer is referring to not really a fense the stops the drain. The technique loops you out of the force so u are basically not force sensitive then u could loop back in and be able to use the force.(manslayer correct me if i didnt explain it right) So he can't drain the force out of non force sensitives. AND PLEASE RESPOND TO ME AND JANUS'S POST FROM THE LAST PAGE OR TWO!

He first cuts your off the force which will cause you to die(I believe, or he could attack and kill you with other powers after cutting you off the force) and after that he feeds on the death he causes.

Some one with the fallanasi technique would remove you from the force instantly and according to lightsnake, you can still use the force despite using the technique