Darth Bane vs Darth Sion

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Because techniques require power.

Darth Maul is not gonna pull off a Force Storm, even if he knows it.

If Revan knew the technique, he might not be strong enough to use it.

Or can you provide a quote or action that shows Revan being stronger in the Force than Nihilus?

Yet again. Nihilus own technique, force storm, thought bomb. The fact that Nihilus was a wound in the force which amplified his abilities, has no bearing on his natural talents. If Revan knows Nihilus' technique (which is certainly logical), then he is more powerful than Nihilus, because his set of offensive weapons is superior to Nihilus.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Proof? Source?

Anything?

Was this made in KOTOR I, before Nihilus was even thought of or in power?

The fact that Nihilus was a wound in the force which amplified his abilities

You say this a llot and you've never been able to prove it once.

Drop it or provide evidence 'cause I can safely say you've NEVER given one piece of proof that this is true.

So the whole "Heart of the Force" jive that Kreia was giving out was nothing more than a glow stick at a rave, right? Ok, chief, if that's what ya say..

I suppose so. Kreia also said Nihilus' had power so vast, he could see the universe completely different than others and that the future of the Galaxy was a black void before his hunger and power.

It is also quite obvious Kreia favors Revan above all her students, mainly because they both a) beat the living shit out of her and b) they both succumbed to power and hatred while Revan did not.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
It is also quite obvious Kreia favors Revan above all her students, mainly because they both a) beat the living shit out of her and b) they both succumbed to power and hatred while Revan did not.

Well, we were just talking about Nihilus/Sion/Revan in terms of Kreia's quotes on them.

It's pretty obvious she favored Revan among these two particular pupils.

So because she spoke so highly of Revan, she favored him more? Or was it because he WAS power? Stop arguing subjectively. And if you want to get specific, she favored the exile because the exile represented her own goals.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Well, we were just talking about Nihilus/Sion/Revan in terms of Kreia's quotes on them.

It's pretty obvious she favored Revan among these two particular pupils.

Those to yes but the exile was her apprentice too. But she did talk about the wonders of Nihilus and her quotes about him seem=her quotes to revan to me

So because she spoke so highly of Revan, she favored him more?

No. Because her other apprentices tried to kill her, torture her and humiliate her.

Plus she also insults both of them while never saying a word against Revan.

On Sion:
"Yes… of pain he has learned much. Of knowledge, of teaching, he knows nothing."

"To have fallen so far and learned nothing – that is your failing."

On Nihilus:
Kreia: "{Chiding} Power? Do you think so? {Shakes head} You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead; it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls.”

Kreia favors Revan definitely over Nihilus. She isn't plotting to kill Revan, after all.

She favors the Exile over everybody else, learn to accept it. She thinks very highly of Revan's abilities.

DS:

The fact that Nihilus was a wound in the force which amplified his abilities

To be fair to DS, Nihilus' bizarre nature makes him able to feed on the Force of others so that he's more like a cosmic force a la Galactus than he is a Sith Lord. There's nothing specifically that states his Force ability was enhanced by his state, but Kreia does say that his very nature and abilities could be the end of the Force itself in time.

This at least implies that his feeding - a unique part of his makeup- sets him apart and above other Force users. Hence why only another wound could weaken him enough to be defeated.

Yet again. Nihilus own technique, force storm, thought bomb

When is Nihilus ever shown using a thought bomb? Or a Force storm? The only time we see Nihilus use the Force is either to manipulate things via telekinesis or to feed upon them via some jacked up version of Force drain.

She favors the Exile over everybody else, learn to accept it. She thinks very highly of Revan's abilities.

This is doubtful. While Kreia needs the Exile and molds her into a more formidable force for her own agenda, when it comes down to it she's using the Exile as a weapon against her own apprentices and to eventually go and aid her first and favored one. Kreia knew that Revan was power, that he was her star pupil and favored subtle, manipulating ways. She knew he could shape the galaxy, as did Bastila. The Exile is a natural leader, and one capable of much. But never does Kreia speak of the Exile in such revered tones.
Nikkolas:

Kreia favors Revan definitely over Nihilus. She isn't plotting to kill Revan, after all.

Very true.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]DS:

To be fair to DS, Nihilus' bizarre nature makes him able to feed on the Force of others so that he's more like a cosmic force a la Galactus than he is a Sith Lord. There's nothing specifically that states his Force ability was enhanced by his state, but Kreia does say that his very nature and abilities could be the end of the Force itself in time.

This at least implies that his feeding - a unique part of his makeup- sets him apart and above other Force users. Hence why only another wound could weaken him enough to be defeated.

When is Nihilus ever shown using a thought bomb? Or a Force storm? The only time we see Nihilus use the Force is either to manipulate things via telekinesis or to feed upon them via some jacked up version of Force drain.

You're right but as I've stated, it's illogical to think that Revan, who was pretty much above and beyond everyone of his time, didn't learn the technique that Nihilus learned, while he pillaged entire underground cities on Malachor V, whereas Nihilus didn't.

I addressed this in the other thread.

I agree with this. The technique DID derive from the ancient sith but how Nihilus came about it is unknown. It doesn't help at all that he's a wound.

Actually, Kreia does mention that he acquires the knowledge from Malachor V, but that he masters it to a degree unheard of because of him being a wound.

I think you misread that. I stated that Revan more than likely knows NIhilus own technique, the force storm, thought bomb, and whatever else the ancient sith knew.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. There's no canon evidence of Revan's upper limits, and surprisingly little evidence of his Force usage. His power was considerable, for him to be one of only two successful Force users who manned and controlled the Star Forge. However, I wouldn't put all my eggs in this basket. We simply just don't know enough to make this claim.

Possibly. What we COULD surmise is that Revan canonically knew more "Terrible ancient sith" techniques than Nihilus, as Nihilus basically had one. But I guess if the logical deduction isn't admissible then Revan's abilities are for the most part, unknown.

In my extensive research on every canon source involving Nihilus, I have not seen one quote saying his pwoers were amplified by his nature.

As far as we know, like Janus said, it could have been his mastery of the power that made him a wound in the first place.

There are numerous theories on Nihilus. I think Janus even once speculated that he was the "dark side" of the Exile after the Exile was made a wound herself.

Nihilus' nature as a wound makes more sense than the Exile's, though. A wound in the Force is a place where there has been mass loss of life. And we are told constantly in Nihilus' wake and presence, "all life dies."

Possibly. What we COULD surmise is that Revan canonically knew more "Terrible ancient sith" techniques than Nihilus, as Nihilus basically had one.

True. With the quote in line, it's possible Revan had more knowledge, and certainly more time to access it seeing as he was the first one there. However, to what extent remains to be clarified upon.

But I guess if the logical deduction isn't admissible then Revan's abilities are for the most part, unknown.

Logical deduction is admissible, but inconclusive.

For example, we can deduce that Revan was a Sith Lord, that he had first access to Malachor V, and that his techniques later on were simply amazing to Bane of the Brotherhood. We can also deduce that from this same source, Nihilus came to his ability. However, there remains a few things we cannot conclusively prove, despite the overall deduction:

1. We cannot conclusively say what those techniques are, besides the Thought Bomb.

2. We cannot say if Revan has truly mastered them or applied them; simply that he had access to them and that he knew of them, enough that he could put the info into a holocron.

3. That in perhaps the Sith-equivalent of Ossus Library, Revan was able to study and scrutinize every single source while waging war, whereas Nihilus who had spent his apprenticeship on the planet, was somehow less able, or was unable to use different sources, etc.

4. We can not also conclusively decide upon where Revan and Nihilus sit when it comes to upper limits of the Force. Nihilus' shown instances set him higher, but Revan is still relatively unknown for the most part. I personally blame the game makers for using this lure of mystery and uberness ploy, as all we can do is make assumptions based on hearsay and feats not described like as in a novel or movie.

There are numerous theories on Nihilus. I think Janus even once speculated that he was the "dark side" of the Exile after the Exile was made a wound herself.

This is true. I still think it makes a lot of sense, though Legacy's appearance of Nihilus separate might contradict this. I hope that perhaps Legacy is overridden into N-canon and the rest of us can go back to happy days.

We know full well Nihilus was, at one point, a Jedi Knight who was consumed by Malachor and severed himself from the Force, in effect becoming what the Exile could've been

So he was on Malachor too like the Exile? And disconnected himself like the Exile?

That doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

If Kreia had Nihilus, why did she think the Exile was so special?

She had already seen and had an apprentice who lived without being connected to the Force.

Yea I used to think Nihilus was just a dark side version of the Exile, or rather what the exile would have become if he turned dark side. And I also agree that they need to make Legacy N-canon, because it is a great storyline, unless you consider the Star Wars concept.

The exile could live without the force, Nihilus can't.