Originally posted by CreshoskI'm talking about your idea of "Rock > Universe" = [/paradox]
So you can create and be unable to lift a rock without "creating" a "rock" or attempting to "lift" it?
I don't care whether the task is lifting a rock or a task that's beyond our comprehension, so long as it requires God to create the task and God to do it.
It's ineffable.
Originally posted by SupermanluvMore semanitic arguments. How lovely.
And yet with his limitless powers he can place a limit on infinity !
I offer you the same solution to the creating a perftectly round square "paradox".
The perfectly round three dimensional square existed before we gave it a name. We chose to call it a sphere, in order to distinguish it from the much less round versions of this square.
But calling it by any name doesn't change the nature of what it is.
One way to accomplish this task is to pull someone with the present knowledge out of time with himself then change the point in time in the past when people decided to call it a sphere to calling it a square. This temporally dislocated individual will then act as a witness when they are the one called crazy for calling a circle a square.
Then when its obvious that they madea perfectly round square. they can resotre things to the way they were and allow the witness to tell others of their experience. and you can have them repeat this ad nauseum until it's accepted that this being indeed made the square round.
Originally posted by NewjakBottom of the Page
Except once again there is no ending. there is no final rock all he can do is just keep making a rock that is bigger and bigger thus where does the experiment end? Where is the question solved? How do we represent the data?All things that can not be done when talking about Infinite.
Originally posted by NewjakYou missed my point...
Except once again there is no ending. there is no final rock all he can do is just keep making a rock that is bigger and bigger thus where does the experiment end? Where is the question solved? How do we represent the data?All things that can not be done when talking about Infinite.
If he's omnipotent, he's omniscient... if he's omniscient, there's no need for experiment. He'll know exactly how big/heavy the hypothetical rock would need to be, he could make it, and he could attempt to lift it.
But, none of us have this correct.
Why?
Because it's ineffable. 🙂
Originally posted by SnazzySmurphAt ineffable 😆
You missed my point...If he's omnipotent, he's omniscient... if he's omniscient, there's no need for experiment. He'll know exactly how big/heavy the hypothetical rock would need to be, he could make it, and he could attempt to lift it.
But, none of us have this correct.
Why?
Because it's ineffable. 🙂
anyways the point of Omnisicient is that he knows everything. So all he would know is that he would just keep making a rock that is bigger. There can be no other outcome with Omnipotence. The experiment and task can not be put to an end.
Originally posted by Creshosk
More semanitic arguments. How lovely.I offer you the same solution to the creating a perftectly round square "paradox".
The perfectly round three dimensional square existed before we gave it a name. We chose to call it a sphere, in order to distinguish it from the much less round versions of this square.
But calling it by any name doesn't change the nature of what it is.
One way to accomplish this task is to pull someone with the present knowledge out of time with himself then change the point in time in the past when people decided to call it a sphere to calling it a square. This temporally dislocated individual will then act as a witness when they are the one called crazy for calling a circle a square.
Then when its obvious that they madea perfectly round square. they can resotre things to the way they were and allow the witness to tell others of their experience. and you can have them repeat this ad nauseum until it's accepted that this being indeed made the square round.
All well and good, but youre semantic example is related to the physical world. Onimpotent intrinsically applies to the metaphysical, therefore goes beyond the quantative restrictions inplaced upon semantics !
Originally posted by Newjak
anyways the point of Omnisicient is that he knows everything. So all he would know is that he would just keep making a rock that is bigger. There can be no other outcome with Omnipotence. The experiment and task can not be put to an end.
But as an omniscient and omnipotent being he would know that logic meant nothing and could skip the experimentation.
Originally posted by SnazzySmurphNot necciserily... Its posible to have the power to do something without having the knowledge of either how to do it, or that you can do it.
You missed my point...If he's omnipotent, he's omniscient...
Omnipotence doesn't really imply omniscience. they are seperate things. In fact a person can do something without fully knowing exactly what they're doing.
Originally posted by SnazzySmurphActually saying that it can't be described is what we've been saying and what my solution highlights.
if he's omniscient, there's no need for experiment. He'll know exactly how big/heavy the hypothetical rock would need to be, he could make it, and he could attempt to lift it.But, none of us have this correct.
Why?
Because it's ineffable. 🙂
Originally posted by SupermanluvWhich is what, you, I, newjak and now smurph are all saying, just in different words.
All well and good, but youre semantic example is related to the physical world. Onimpotent intrinsically applies to the metaphysical, therefore goes beyond the quantative restrictions inplaced upon semantics !
Originally posted by CreshoskFair enough to both points... though, I was under the assumption that we were meant to assume God was omniscient. Anyways...
Not necciserily... Its posible to have the power to do something without having the knowledge of either how to do it, or that you can do it.Omnipotence doesn't really imply omniscience. they are seperate things. In fact a person can do something without fully knowing exactly what they're doing.
Actually saying that it can't be described is what we've been saying and what my solution highlights.
Cresh and I are right.
It's ineffable.
Leaving now... you should all read Good Omens. Unless you have already.
"The Ineffable Plan"
Originally posted by Newjak
Doesn't that mean the Paradox trying to be established can not exist. 😛
No.
Becasue the paradox, is only applicable to humans and not the entity in question
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosYes but then that means he has to allow the Paradox to exist. The whole point of the Rock Paradox is that it has to exist and that there can be no way around it. Which unless the Entity imposes self"limits" than an Infinite Being can not have a Paradox like this.
Well it could but not for the creature in question.In theory it could be argued that such an entity as the one being discussed could will the paradox into existence.
Originally posted by Newjak
Yes but then that means he has to allow the Paradox to exist. The whole point of the Rock Paradox is that it has to exist and that there can be no way around it. Which unless the Entity imposes self"limits" than an Infinite Being can not have a Paradox like this.
Hence the ineffability clause.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosI understand that but the whole point of the Rock of Paradox is that God has no way around the fact. When in reality a being that has no limit to there power has no such constraints on them because they have no limits to place them on.
Hence the ineffability clause.
Because Infinity means no end.
Originally posted by Newjak
I understand that but the whole point of the Rock of Paradox is that God has no way around the fact. When in reality a being that has no limit to there power has no such constraints on them because they have no limits to place them on.Because Infinity means no end.
Originally posted by Newjak
I understand that but the whole point of the Rock of Paradox is that God has no way around the fact. When in reality a being that has no limit to there power has no such constraints on them because they have no limits to place them on.Because Infinity means no end.
Your first statement contradicts your second. I agree with your first but not your second.
the statement/problems requires that the Entity to implace the limits upon himself. Just because he has Infinite power doens't mean he cannot restrict himslef infinitely becasue infinity doesn't have any limits. The Entity is beyond infinity, by Intrinsic nature, and Infinity is beyond him therefore there is a paradox !