Namor, The Sub-Mariner vs Wolverine

Originally posted by Laminator_X
To be clear, the one hit Logan got in on Namor, while a good one, was by stabbing Namor after taking his hand to help Logan out of the hole in the roof. (Accept a hand up and then stab him? Yeesh. Didn't he once say "Want mercy? Show a little first."😉

It also showed that Namor was fast enough to uppercut Logan through the chimney when Wolvie's claws were already at his temples.

What I like in this, is that it rather than just rushing him, Logan uses dirty tricks knowledge of the terrain, and trying to goad Namor into a rage, via the insults and threats. He knows his best bet is to get Namor so enraged that he looses control of the situation and gives Logan another opening.

Namor clearly had the upper hand, but if Logan had gone for brain instead of chest with his sucker-punch, he might yet have have pulled off a win.

You kidna missed the whole part were namor sucke rpunched Logan. Logan was warning Namor to laeve. He wast elling he he has to leave and namor punches him which I doubt Logan thought was coming. Then Logan stabbs namor in a similar fashion.

All namor really did was suprize Logan twice.........

Logan has straight up beat namor in 2 or 3 fights.

Namor best showing is surprizing Logan twice in one issue.

Namor has also admitt he can't take a none mind controlled Logan.

I wouldn't put punching someone who has a knife to your face on the same level as stabbing someone while he's helping you out of a hole. 😉

I'm not discounting those other situations either (well, I do kind of think the fight in Invaders was BS), I merely think that this particular fight is a good example of how I see the matchup.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
I wouldn't put punching someone who has a knife to your face on the same level as stabbing someone while he's helping you out of a hole. 😉

I'm not discounting those other situations either (well, I do kind of think the fight in Invaders was BS), I merely think that this particular fight is a good example of how I see the matchup.

I would seeing as how namor with a slapp can nock over a biuld............

Wolverine was warning him to leave namor lashed out at a talking wolverine.

Namor if any thing should have espected and attack from wolverine after he punched him lol. The two of them have fought enough to know that.

Honestly both were cheap shots

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Wolverine was warning him to leave namor lashed out at a talking wolverine.

Namor if any thing should have espected and attack from wolverine after he punched him lol. The two of them have fought enough to know that.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
You kidna missed the whole part were namor sucke rpunched Logan. Logan was warning Namor to laeve. He wast elling he he has to leave and namor punches him which I doubt Logan thought was coming. Then Logan stabbs namor in a similar fashion.

All namor really did was suprize Logan twice.........

Logan has straight up beat namor in 2 or 3 fights.

Namor best showing is surprizing Logan twice in one issue.

Namor has also admitt he can't take a none mind controlled Logan.

It was Namor who came to the Mansion as an ally. He let that be known off the bat. It was Wolvie who extracted the claws and aimed them for Namors head. He was clearly the initial aggressor. The hit Namor had on him was not a sucker punch. Its not like Wolvie never encountered Namor before and doesnt know his temper. You think Wolvie honestly didnt expect to get hit after drawing his claws and aiming them towards Namors head?

Namor clearly didnt want any physical encounters considering he let Logan know from the beginning that he was there for aid. When he was helping Logan up, and got stabbed, that was a sucker attack delivered by Wolvie. Namor wasnt the aggressor.

As for Wolverine beating Namor 2 or 3 times, which fights were these? All i can remember was the Invaders one. Am i forgetting something?

Also, when has Namor stated that he couldnt beat a non mind controlled Namor?

Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
You can't say Namor should have expected it and Wolverine shouldn't have... Wolverine was threatening Namor with an adamantium claw to his face. He should have expected an attack, he knows that Namor wouldn't stand for that.

They were both being retarded.

Both look clearly surprized yet they really had no reason for it.

I think they both got a little cocky lol

Originally posted by jrodslam

As for Wolverine beating Namor 2 or 3 times, which fights were these? All i can remember was the Invaders one. Am i forgetting something?

Also, when has Namor stated that he couldnt beat a non mind controlled Namor?

Civil war fight. Logan took namor not once but twice out of the fight.

Also in there first encounter Logan was winnign so badly namor retorted to using weapons and still could not win. It became a stale mate and then namor says " I would never be so arogrant to think I could defeat a non controlled wolverine" or some such.

I thought the Civil War fight was a bit wonky for the both of them. First Namor just stands there and gets stabbed, then Logan somehow fails to notice Namor coming up behind him despite his uber senses.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Civil war fight. Logan took namor not once but twice out of the fight.

Also in there first encounter Logan was winnign so badly namor retorted to using weapons and still could not win. It became a stale mate and then namor says " I would never be so arogrant to think I could defeat a non controlled wolverine" or some such.

Umm, you call Wolvie tripping Namor to the ground, taking him out? Then, the second time Wolvie "took Namor out", he missed the organs and got his ass knocked out. Namor won that fight. Thats unless youre talking abouot another fight?

In their first encounter, Wolvie was NOT winning badly. They were pretty even for the entire fight. Namor used a tree. So? Wolvie used his claws. And i dont see where Namor says anything like "I would never be so arogrant to think I could defeat a non controlled wolverine", or such. What page is that?

It was the next issue where Namor stated and i quote..."It is true that you have bound the X-Mans body to your will...But Namors pride is not so great that i believe that i could have defeated Wolverine if he was any more than your puppet."

Namor was basically telling SSSesthugar that it didnt matter id Wolvie was controlled or not. He still thinks he would have beat him.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Uncanny Annual 11? He was made godlike by the crystal, yes?

Originally posted by Laminator_X
I took most of that for normal, really. He was certainly a more interesting and dramatic character to read about in that state.

while I suppose you could argue that his weakened state is his normal state in terms of pure consistency, that's not quite what I meant.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
I have the actual SvF issue, and like it for the outstanding upset victory. Sometimes the team in last place beats the team in first place, or the 100 to 1 horse wins the race. The point of SvF is that such events are not typical, and shouldn't be considered definitive examples of expected repeat-performance.

Okay, that's fine. But that's more relivant to characters with long histories. Wolverine's at the time was only about 10 or so appearances and he did all that.

When you have a new character, the feats he produces on panel are what makes him.
I'm only saying what happened.. to provide that this "classic Wolverine" everyone refers to never really existed... only in skewed states.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Not incidentally, this is also why Mega-Wolvie annoys me.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Back on subject, the only way I can see Wolvie beating the Sub-Mariner is if he plays it smart (Stealth, ambush, etc) while goading Namor into rash attacks. If he tries to go head to head he probably looses. Subby isn't just a brick. He's mega-strong & fast to boot. If Subby fights smart instead of arrogant, Wolvie looses.

I disagree.. I find the only way's Namor wins a fight are through plot devices like dropping buildings on Logan, or water, OR perhaps the 1/35 percent chance that he uses his eel attack...

Other than that, he doesn't have range, he has to go in close.. and while he's fast he's not faster than Wolverine can negotiate we've seen this time after time starting from their first head to head and it's been consistent even up to today. Namor has no speed advantage over Logan in combat.
He's strong but a couple well placed shots from Logan can will and have put him down.
He's not gauranteed to take down Wolverine even with a number of hits and Wolverine proved it.
Plus without water, the damage that Wolverine sustains will be much less taxing than that which Namor sustains...

And on top of that! Wolverine's a better, well rounded fighter.

He (Namor) can win this but not the majority if it's straight up.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
This is very true. If they stay in close for too long, Wolverine will have the advantage. OTOH, if Wolvie gets knocked into the pavement and then Namor starts pounding him with a trash-truck over and over the outcome becomes very different. (If we allow that Wolverine is immortal for the sake of discussion, then surely an immobilize/KO will constitute a win, yes?)

Originally posted by Laminator_X
To be clear, the first hit Logan got in on Namor, while a good one, was by stabbing Namor after taking his hand to help Logan out of the hole in the roof. (Accept a hand up and then stab him? Yeesh. Didn't he once say "Want mercy? Show a little first."😉 The second was a follow up.

True but in all honesty, it was nothing more than something that proves capt's point here.

Namor first nailed Logan with a sucker punch.
So Wolverine returned the sucker punch in turn, the mercy rule probably being why the follow up wasn't with the claws.

But I mean c'mon... You know Wolverine, and his temper, you've fought him before. He clearly displays good rational for you to leave and then he flat out tells you to go away or else, you punch him with a class 100 blow and you're not expecting him to retaliate? wtf?

Originally posted by Laminator_X
It also showed that Namor was fast enough to uppercut Logan through the chimney when Wolvie's claws were already at his temples.

It'd be like putting a knife to someone's stomach and while you're in the middle of a threat they kick you away... It wasn't a definite display of speed on Namor's part. His second punch was a better example of that.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
What I like in this, is that it rather than just rushing him, Logan uses dirty tricks knowledge of the terrain, and trying to goad Namor into a rage, via the insults and threats. He knows his best bet is to get Namor so enraged that he looses control of the situation and gives Logan another opening.

I didn't quite get that from the writing.. I thought Wolverine was portrayed rather weak in the intelligence department actually.. aside from not knowing the difference between a mammal and a fish, he also had the small issue of punching Namor NEXT to water... he punched Namor CLOSER to water? That's definitely not a good use of his terrain...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Namor clearly had the upper hand, but if Logan had gone for brain instead of chest (a-la the AoA What IF?) with his sucker-punch, he might have have pulled off a win.

Or if he had his claws out with his follow up too..

Namor did have an advantage at the end of the fight, but the fact that he was induced by water played a huge factor.. Notice how Wolverine before and after the fight isn't intimidated the least by Namor, but when Namor took a dip he registered an "oh no".

Originally posted by jrodslam
Umm, you call Wolvie tripping Namor to the ground, taking him out? Then, the second time Wolvie "took Namor out", he missed the organs and got his ass knocked out. Namor won that fight. Thats unless youre talking abouot another fight?

Originally posted by jrodslam
In their first encounter, Wolvie was NOT winning badly. They were pretty even for the entire fight. Namor used a tree. So?

Originally posted by jrodslam
Wolvie used his claws. And i dont see where Namor says anything like "I would never be so arogrant to think I could defeat a non controlled wolverine", or such. What page is that?

Originally posted by jrodslam
It was the next issue where Namor stated and i quote..."It is true that you have bound the X-Mans body to your will...But Namors pride is not so great that i believe that i could have defeated Wolverine if he was any more than your puppet."

Namor was basically telling SSSesthugar that it didnt matter id Wolvie was controlled or not. He still thinks he would have beat him.

abriged that reads as
"my prides not so great that I believe I could have beat him if he were anything more than mindcontrolled"

How does that read to you that that means he can beat logan mind controlled or not?
🤨

Originally posted by jinzin
basically like I said, he needs plot devices and weapons to beat Logan.

Unless you don't consider adamantium claws to be a weapon... ermm (and the healing factor to be a plot device... ermmha)

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The same can be said of Wolverine amongst others. barker

Unless you don't consider adamantium claws to be a weapon... ermm (and the healing factor to be a plot device... ermmha)

I don't....

I don't consider the spider sense a plot device or webbing an outside weapon for Spiderman to use because those are part of his basic arsenal and he employs them every time he fights.

Likewise, I don't think that Namor's class 100 strength or his ability to fly are those things either. Because once again, he brings those to all of his fights...

But if Namor has to smash someone with a building to beat them, then I Do consider the building to be a plot device.
It's a tool that's outside of Namor's regular arsenal that gives him an advantage he wouldn't have otherwise.

If punisher brings guns to a fight, that's expected. That's what he does.
If Namor brings a building that's... odd.

And it also defeats the point of this debate. 😬

Most of the time we're here to see how these characters stack up against one another in a fair fight 1 on 1 fight.
Something like Namor dropping buildings and taking people into the sea skews that objective.
Those are things that play to Namor's strengths without necessarily being assurances for him every fight..

I mean sure Wolverine could duck into the shadows in any given fight and stalk and prowl until an opening presents itself unleashing an ass kickin on whomever he's after.. but it's not a legit win, and it wouldn't prove that he could win legit either which is what I thought we were here to do.

The OP says the fight takes place in Central Park, NYC...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The OP says the fight takes place in Central Park, NYC...

Umm yeah I know... And that really doesn't change a thing that I said...

I'm not saying for this fight particularly that Namor CAN'T win by doing something like that, I was reffering more towards generality.

Do you at least see where I'm coming from on the matter?

I'm feeling deja vu... I think we had this digital conversation before... in this same thread. 😑

I wouldn't be surprised 🙁