Originally posted by Melnorme
Well, firstly that it has never happened. Also, based on the fact that bones are significantly tougher than skin, and as has been shown in this thread, Wolverine would have a hard enough time cutting through his skin.
Originally posted by Melnorme
I'm not entirely convinced that even this is possible, because as we can see from that one confrontation from the "good ole days" of comics, when the writers actually knew their characters, Wolverine didn't appear to do much with a full-on belly slash.
he easily peirced his skin.. I'm with leo on this one.. it doesn't look like he caught the full brunt of that attack.. instead it looks more like wolverine caught the side of him as he rolled with it to make it only a slash and not a full on it... if it was a full on hit things would have been a different story...
Originally posted by Melnorme
But, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you're correct and that Wolverine would be able to pierce his skin.
Originally posted by Melnorme
[BHowever, piercing bone is still a difficulty on a different order of magnitude. [/B]
true.. yet there is little to no evidence supporting that wolverine can't cut stab through it...
Originally posted by jinzinSo Storm is using a plot device when she creates wind? Avalanche and Rictor when they make tremors? Magma if she pulls up magma/lava through the ground, Human Torch when he combusts oxygen to flame on...? 😬 Sorry, I'm personally not subscribing to that.
environment used as a weapon IS a plot device...
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So Storm is using a plot device when she creates wind? Avalanche and Rictor when they make tremors? Magma if she pulls up magma/lava through the ground, Human Torch when he combusts oxygen to flame on...? 😬 Sorry, I'm personally not subscribing to that.
that's part of their described powers.. their powers go hand in hand with the results...
namor having strength doesn't go hand in hand with namor uproots a tree.. 😕
Originally posted by jinzinNamor uprooting an object readily available in the environment specified by the threadstarter using his power of strength = plot device?
that's part of their described powers.. their powers go hand in hand with the results...namor having strength doesn't go hand in hand with namor uproots a tree.. 😕
I think you quoted part of this before:
"A plot device is a person or an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot. In the hands of a skilled writer, the reader or viewer will not notice that the device is a construction of the author—it will seem to follow naturally from the setting or characters in the story."
The thing is, a building or car or tree is part of the setting in the first place - they are the "plot" rather than a device introduced. They are not introduced into the scene to affect or advance anything. They are the scene. Just like gravity, 21% oxygen environment, the ground they stand on. If this was another environment their inclusion may be plot device, here they aren't.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Namor uprooting an object readily available in the environment specified by the threadstarter using his power of strength = plot device?I think you quoted part of this before:
"A plot device is a person or an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot. In the hands of a skilled writer, the reader or viewer will not notice that the device is a construction of the author—it will seem to follow naturally from the setting or characters in the story."The thing is, a building or car or tree is part of the setting in the first place - they are the "plot" rather than a device introduced. They are not introduced into the scene to affect or advance anything. They are the scene. Just like gravity, 21% oxygen environment, the ground they stand on. If this was another environment their inclusion may be plot device, here they aren't.
when they become a part of the cause/effect relationship of the plot itself rather than just the setting they become a plot device...
sometimes you can change the setting without changing the plot.. this fight could take place in any invironment and still be a fight... but if there are factors that EFFECT the fight (plot) then they are factors to be considered plot devices..
i don't get it.. I can accept and admit that wolverine most likely loses the fight if namor grabs something... hell I'll even admit that he'll definitely lose depending on the circuimstances..
why can't you admit namor using a weapon he doesn't usually carry on him is a plot device?
Originally posted by jinzinThe fact that it is a fight is not in itself the plot of the thread. The plot of this thread is "Namor and Wolverine fighting in Central Park, NYC." Altering any of those parameters Namor, Wolverine or Central Park, NYC would alter the plot of the thread. Altering any of those parameters would not constitute a plot device.
when they become a part of the cause/effect relationship of the plot itself rather than just the setting they become a plot device...sometimes you can change the setting without changing the plot.. this fight could take place in any invironment and still be a fight... but if there are factors that EFFECT the fight (plot) then they are factors to be considered plot devices..
Originally posted by jinzinI don't think it is... it irks me...
why can't you admit namor using a weapon he doesn't usually carry on him is a plot device?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The fact that it is a fight is not in itself the plot of the thread. The plot of this thread is "Namor and Wolverine fighting in Central Park, NYC." Altering any of those parameters Namor, Wolverine or Central Park, NYC would alter the plot of the thread. Altering any of those parameters would not constitute a plot device.I don't think it is... it irks me...
We can agree to disagree if you want...
the plot is the action or the series of events that take place in a story...
as I said.. the setting of the fight could change and this would still be a fight.. the action or events that are important to the thread wouldn't change... if the plot is contingent upon the setting.. then the setting is a device that the plot uses to further the story.. hence.... plot device...
the fight however is not congingent upon such matters.. the fight could be anywhere and the action doesn't have to be effected unless it was affected by plot devices..
the setting being contingent upon the story.. or what you're talking about is mise en scene...
A powerhouse is strong. If they are in battle, its almost expected for them to use objects in the immediate area such as cars, buses, uprooting trees, buildings, etc. They do it because they can and those weaker cannot. Thus i wouldnt consider them plot devices.
If a powerhouse is fighting another powerhouse, would we all not expect cars and such to be thrown? And would we truly consider them plot devices? I doubt that.
Originally posted by jrodslam
A powerhouse is strong. If they are in battle, its almost expected for them to use objects in the immediate area such as cars, buses, uprooting trees, buildings, etc. They do it because they can and those weaker cannot. Thus i wouldnt consider them plot devices.If a powerhouse is fighting another powerhouse, would we all not expect cars and such to be thrown? And would we truly consider them plot devices? I doubt that.
they are plot devices by definition...
i'm not arguing whether or not namor can or can't use them.. just that whether he does or not.. they are still plot devices..
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Meh.. probably the only relevant form of plot device to these threads is Deus ex Machina... and everyone agrees that it isn't that.
agreed.
well that it's not Deus ex at least..
i wouldn't say that these are irrelevant plot devices though.. if namor uses it to win.. I'd call it pretty damned relivant.. lol.. but hey, that's just me...
Originally posted by jinzin
sure you could argue that.. but my proof of wolverine stalemating and beating namor wasn't enough... 😂ask him.. it's that simple..
Like I said:
"Stalemate when he is weak
Defeat him through the use of CIS"
Originally posted by jinzin
how the hell does one apply distance to thought? when thought is near instantanious... that's representing how one's nerve impulses travel.. not the same thing... unless namor has a waaaay overdeveloped brain that I'm not aware of.. 😕
http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=nerve+impulse+speed&btnG=Google-haku&meta=
"The speed of a nerve impulse varies with the type of nerve impulse the nervous system is sending. Some signals such as those for muscle position, travel at speeds up to 119m/s. Nerve impulses such as pain signals travel slower at 0.61m/s. Touch signals travel at speeds of 76.2m/s. If you are reading this at this moment and thinking at the same time, which some people may have trouble with, thought signals are traveling at speeds ranging between 20 and 30 meters per second."
Thought is not near instantanious.
If you were travelling with thought speed through space, you would not get pretty far in a short time.
Originally posted by jinzin
againhe'd have to think faster than others can register thought.. that's nearly impossible enough... thinking then moving faster than it takes to formulate one thought would make him to fast to be seen.. that's not the case.
But you see, Namor thinks faster then normal humans...
Originally posted by jinzin
so even if ogun's speed is wrong then it's not radically wrong...
It is, if he hasn't never displayed such speeds in the comics...
Originally posted by jinzin
that was dizzles explaination... the jury's still out on that one...
That's the only explanation for his speed, really...
Originally posted by jinzin
but not radically so as per your own admission.
What is the highest speed he has attained in comics?
Warp speed is faster then light. It IS pretty radically wrong.
Originally posted by jinzin
so you're assuming fresh from water? what feats has he done that put him at 50,000 tons in water? I'm not being an ass here. I'm genuinely curious...
http://img333.imageshack.us/img333/2802/namorfeat220rx.gif
http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorfeat785pf.gif
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3936/incrediblehulk118195ly.jpg
Originally posted by jinzin
it is kind of..but it's more relivant than you last one.. the thing is I don't need to counter that.. it's pretty evident that if namor hits wolvie he should be sending him airborne depending on the direction of the punch...
Thus, he is never hitting him with full power on their encounters...
Originally posted by jinzin
yes I agree.. but kicking fast doesn't dictate a fast h2h fighter..there are many girls I know who are extremely fast kickers but lack true h2h speed... it's about more than muscles...
Ah yes. Flash can run fast, but he is real slowpoke in fights...same with Northstar...and Quicksilver...
Originally posted by jinzin
you're strawmanning again.. the claim was namor's too fast for wolverine.. I have proof that he isn't... your response is that slashes can't put him down which implies my argument was that slashes would... I haven't made that claim... I don't need to find you ONE time that slashes have put him down because that's not a part of my argument..
Namor is too fast for Wolverine. He is just never written correctly...
On the first fight, Wolverine did minor damage. On the second fight, Namor was fighting like an retard.
Originally posted by jinzin
immediately out of water? who says he is here?
It is just my assumption that Namor would not be weakened here...besides, he can just fly to a lake and refresh himself.
Originally posted by jinzin
how do you know? 😕
there's a pretty clear indication that he was pissed on both accounts...
Because:
Namor hitting with full power:
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1989/funfact24pe.gif
Namor hitting not close full power:
http://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorvswolv19sw.gif
He goes easy on Wolverine...it's pretty simple.
Originally posted by jinzin
I'm reffering to your arguments.. not you.. 🙄
Kind of a stupid way to refer at someone's arguments...
Originally posted by jinzin
maybe....
Not really maybe...
Namor actually dodging Wolverine, instead of standing in one place would make it lot harder to Wolverine...
Originally posted by jinzin
because although the a over b = a over c argument doesn't work in terms of a fight it does however work in termsof applying wolverine's speed in this fight...
So...they both have moved faster, but only the low-end feats apply?
Originally posted by jinzin
despite having done so before? 😕
Fight 1: Weakened
Fight 2: Bad writing
Namor has dodged LOT faster things then Wolverine...should be quite clear that he can dodge Wolverine.
Originally posted by jinzin
how can you be sure? if he's as upgraded in water as the claims say this may not be true....
Upgraded in strength...that doesn't decrease.
He is faster out of water, in same way that Aquaman is.
http://www.comicboards.com/comicbattles/attachments/041027071315/Aquaman-speed-feat.jpg
The image doesn't work so you can look the pict from here...it's the one where he says that there is no pressures hindering him.
http://www.comicboards.com/comicbattles/view.php?rpl=041027071315
Originally posted by jinzin
some bullets break the sound barrier... yes...
Do they break it multiple times?
Namor's arms and legs have...under water...where there is pressure...
Originally posted by jinzin
yes...
Okay...can they react to it?
Originally posted by jinzin
when I get back home I'll post one for ya...
Do it.
I don't think anyone adressed this on the pages before this...
Originally posted by Dizzle
That's exactly what I'm (and DC, and some other people... can't say it's just been me) talking about... Namor didn't even move, or try to dodge the shot. Hell, by the art, he MOVED HIS ARMS so Wovlerine could get a better shot at his chest. That fight was the equivalent of Wolverine beating a punching bag that talks s***.That's why direct confrontation isn't always the best way to compare the two... Two characters almost NEVER use all of their abilities when fighting in comics.
In order to move around, Wolverine needs to touch the ground, where Namor can fly. In a completely by-the-definition plot device free environment, Namor wins because Wolverine is suspended in midair. He can't be falling, because then gravity's a plot device. 🙂 (getting too specific is a bit stupid... so while I agree that a tree or a car would be a plot device, stuff like the ground really shouldn't be. Otherwise stuff like gravity will have to be considered plot devices)
How has electricity been completely disregarded thus far? Has Wolverine ever shown the ability to withstand a great amount of it? It definitely is a Namor power.
Namor is hit by humans consistantly, yes. But he also dodges things that are MUCH faster consistantly. Both happen frequently, so which do we consider to be what "will" happen? That's the reason I only try to use higher end feats...
For example, were ANYTHING that happens a few times taken into account, anyone who can produce as much force as that elk should beat Wolverine a number of times, because he has CONSISTANTLY been hit by slow things, and knocked out by things much much weaker than Hulk. Anyone who argues isn't taking into account that his healing factor "might" be set to "crappy" for some of these fights.
The entire freaking point of the "Bloodlust" rule is that all chracters, in these fights, will ALWAYS fight to their potential. Namor has been hit by Cap and DD, but Namor has also hopped across a stream of meteors, dodged sonic waves, and caught missiles. Both happen consistantly. Wolverine takes shots from Hulk, Wolverine cuts 6 guys in the time it takes to say "cooperation". Wolverine also gets Koed by bullets, elk, and Daredevil. Again, both happen consistantly. Is one considered to be working in all of these fights, but not the other? To justify Wolverine easily hitting Namor some of the time, Wolverine would also have to be KOed by an elk level attack some of the time. Not all of the time, but say, 3/10?
This fight won't be anywhere near to easy for Namor, unless his electricity KOes Logan. Barring that, he consistantly DOES fly when he fights, (the "Cap got owned" fight) he DOES know Atlantean martial arts, he DOES move and react beyond mach speeds, and he CAN throw an object of Wolverine's weight for a very great distance, or rip out his guts. Wolverine can win with a full force stab, but truthfully, that's about it. It's actually been proven that anything less than that CAN'T hurt Namor. Which is why I still say Namor wins 8 or 9/10.
And what was that about "Namor's brain can't work faster than a human's"? Plenty of people have brains that work much faster than human brains in comics. Thought is only "nearly instant" because of the minute distance. But if no one's brain can be faster than a human's, how do you explain Flash? He doesn't run into buildings, but any person who can run as fast as him would. Within milliseconds. I really don't know what you were trying to say, can you please clarify? 😕
Oh yeah, and leaving Central Park doesn't mean one automatically loses by ring out. If it did, Namor would win with a kick. The two start in Central Park, but are not necessarily limited to Central Park.
And Ogun definitely is classified as 7 in speed because of teleportation. So is Thor. (for the most part... he can actually hit like 3C without teleporting, but that hasn't happened very often) Out of curiosity, how is Mantis rated? She's just above peak human speed in combat, (unless it's against the Runner... rofl) but she can also teleport across plants and stuff.
And THAT, friends, is an essay.
