Superman vs Goku (Official Thread)

i'm not referring to that but to his flurry of punches, kicks and dodging.

his agility

Yet you have not quantified this.

so where's the agility in earth to sun fights or around the world fights?

Tracking and hitting the opponent moving at those speeds, dodging and blocking the opponents' attacks at those speeds, avoiding obstacles at those speeds.

i already asked digimark ( i think that is his name) and he said CIS is allowed.

That's not the same thing.

i agree, but your going off topic.

about the planet busting, you need to know about how strong their ki or power levels.

Power levels are meaningless for cross-universe comparisons.

only seniors are allowed to post scan, i'm not senior.

What? That's not true. Just post a link.

the control/manipulation of energy in DC/dragonball are way different.

That doesn't mean you can get away with making ridiculous unsupported claims like "every attack that only creates a 10 - foot crater in the ground could really destroy a planet".

i said it doesn't matter if they shake anything,

what matters most are their ki that is powerful than solar system buster

Lie. No one in DBZ has ever destroyed a solar system. Cell was bluffing when he said he could.

and they use ki in every way except lifting.

This is nonsensical and contradicted by the manga.

i don't want to admit it because you have no proof just speculation.

superman's reaction when flying can't be applied in fighting because

flying =/= fighting

no proof

Except he can fight while he's flying at those speeds.

superman could only dodge goku by flying at long range not by agility.

and goku could dodge superman's flying attack by agility.

did you read ginyu arc?

I read the whole manga. DBZ characters are nowhere near Superman's speed.

yes, superman has more experience in speed when not fighting.

while goku has more experience in speed when fighting.

goku continues training everyday, even when he's dead.

Stop trying to make distinctions when there are none. Superman reacts just as fast as he moves, or else he'd be randomly crashing into stuff all the time.

Endless Mike => I like how they mentioned black holes decaying due to Hawking radiation. It always pleases me when science like that is used/mentioned in comics.

=-so that is your reason why you can't understand "KI"

WTF is with this signature? Since I like the fact that real science is used in comics sometimes, I don't understand a mystical concept in comics? And you claim I don't understand it just because I don't accept your bullshit claims that it can do things we have never seen it do?

i know about DOS, that superman and doomsday are fighting at super speed yet normal humans could see doomsday.

Because they were in a slugfest..

Meaning they were only exchanging punches at super speed, not moving their entire bodies that fast.

it's fighting across the miles because doomsday hit supes with 1 punch, no agility involve in fighting across the miles.

Um, yes there was. Did you even read it?

sorry, but your only speculating.

it's not the same unless you prove me.

I did prove it. The fact that he doesn't bump into stuff all the time when flying at super speed proves he can react that fast. If you can't understand such a simple concept, I don't know what to tell you.

since he's flying at long distance, yes. but in agility, no.

Then how come he does land punches and fight people while flying at super speed?

flurry of punches

dodging

moving around his opponent in different direction

as long as there are no long distance involve.

i didn't say superman can't do that but how rare compare to goku.

So the fact that they're fighting over long distances automatically means it's not agility? Get a dictionary, kid. Fighting over long distances is far more impressive than what DBZ characters do since they have to move at far greater speeds and react to other people moving at those speeds.

it's not about drawing, did i say that?

Yes you did, when you claimed that all of these "flurries of punches" and stuff are what determine speed, when that's just art style.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3510/blurryjustartstyleqb6.gif

Mr. Satan can do that too

even DC didn't say that superman can fight in lightspeed.

Yes they do. It's explicitly shown when he does. What do you call fighting someone to the sun and around the world and back in 1 minute and 54 seconds? Oh, that's right, it doesn't count, because it was over a long distance so it's just travelling, despite the fact that he was punching, dodging, and avoiding obstacles the whole way. 🙄

if your talking about speed, see it yourself

Photoshop/improper translation. See above.

the point is regularly used against rarely used - CIS rule

How is it CIS if he does this kind of thing all the time?

Originally posted by nij-ayias
Provide evidence from canon comics, not just playing around like that.

I have been.

You want some more scans?

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanspeedfight.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/Supermanspeedblitz.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanspeedblitz1.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Superman/supermanspeedblitz2.jpg

*waits to hear some stupid excuse for why these don't count*

[quote]i answer that before.

No you didn't. Stop lying.

[quote]Since, when did cell lie?

"When I achieve my perfect form, I will be the most powerful being imaginable!"
"I'm impossible to kill"
"No one can stand against me!"
"If I had my perfect form, I'd be perfect in every way! I wouldn't lose to anyone!"
(to Gohan) "Even if you lived for a hundred years, you'd never be able to kill me."
(to Gohan) "You can't possibly believe you could beat me."
(to Gohan) "There's no way I can lose to you!"
(to Gohan) "I won't let you win!"

🙄

Did gohan stops him?

Yes or No

Gohan fired his own blast, but after Cell fired his. They collided and only made a small crater. If either one of those attacks could have even come close to destroying the solar system, it would have done way more than that.

You mean, perfect cell isn’t the strongest before gohan reaches ssj2?

The computer told cell that he will be the strongest when he absorbed no.18/no.17. You mean absorbing no. 18/ no. 17 is a lie too because cell said those statements?

It was a lie when he said no one could ever possibly be stronger than him or beat him. Stop being obtuse.

Supes only absorbed mageddon’s energy because it’s anti sun’s energy that he can also absorb it the way he absorb sunlight. It’s like giving a food not receiving any attacks.

Wrong. It was anti - sun energy, so it was the opposite of what powers him. That means it was harmful to him, not helpful. Not to mention the ability to store that much energy in the first place says a lot. I debunked this stupid argument when Phenomenol used it, now it's come back as a zombie and I have to kill it again.

Black rock hurts supes with a non-planet busting attack, look at infinite crisis crossover : superman 223.

Uh - huh, right.... do you want me to mention every time a DBZ character was hurt by an attack that didn't destroy a planet?

Until now you didn’t know that they can make their attack smaller to prevent further damage of the planet.

*snip*

And the fact that Vegeta's attack flew off into space had nothing to do with it, right? 🙄

That excuse isn't available for most DBZ attacks, since most of them don't fly off into space, but detonate completely on the planet (including Cell's attack).

ok provide evidence

[B]I. JUST. DID.

This is both comics and fictional characters, physics has nothing to do with it.

Physics has everything to do with it. Without physics, any type of vs. debate would be completely impossible and pointless. It's physics that tells us how much enerhy is required to destroy a planet. It's physics that tells us how fast bullets are, how fast the speed of light is, how much objects weight, etc. Physics describe everything about the universe. If you ignore physics, you can't debate anything.

I said provide evidence................

The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of your moronic hypothesis that every attack in DBZ can destroy a planet when everything contradicts it.

Is that comics?

What? Your responses aren't even making sense anymore. (Not that they made much sense in the first place).

it's about rarely used and regularly used in their own respective comics not about counting comics.

If you define "rarely used" as "not used against opponents who aren't dangerous enough to need it, but otherwise used rather often".

black rock vs superman fight isn't super speed.

So since one fight you can name he didn't use super speed, that means he can't, despite all the times he did? Stop breaking the rules.

e2 supes vs. e1 supes too

Actually their fight used quite a bit of speed (but you're probably going to ignore it because it was over distances, despite the fact that they were fighting).

provide evidence, show me plzzzzzzzzzzz, show it

Exactly what kind of "evidence" would meet your standards? Since we're giving you tons and you're just ignoring it.

so a character that rarely uses a skill will lose to a character that regularly uses his skill.

Define "skill". Superman has tons of skills that Goku couldn't even think of.

did you see the word that i type before?

gohan STOPS IT!!!!!!!!!!

it's not logic, it's only your opinion............

Right, he "stops it" by throwing his own attack at it. That's like trying to "stop" a forest fire by dousing it in napalm.

(your man Mike said they were on a comparable scale)

Liar. I said Goku was worried about him (which is true):

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1920/gokuworriedaboutyakonow8.gif

And he had to transform to SSJ2 to defeat him (which was also true).

I'll deal with the rest of your arguments tomorrow, I'm exhausted from dealing with that other guy.

I think Goku wins this one guys. he is just too strong

Originally posted by Sarutobi700
I think Goku wins this one guys. he is just too strong

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
[B]Interesting... So you want it to go how they fight on a daily basis? Can you name someone Goku has beaten on his own without help from friends and relatives that he wasn't much stronger than?

Piccolo D

Tien helped him by flying him into the air (Goku didn't know how to fly back then). Without his help, Picollo's blast would have killed him.

Boss Rabbit

He needed Yamcha to get Bulma back from him (as a carrot) and then tell him to attack with the pole instead of physically

Tien

He lost to Tien the first time

Piccolo

Kami helped him

Freeza

Are you kidding? Practically everyone helped him here. Krillin, Picollo, Gohan, Vegeta, King Kai, Nail, Saichoro, etc.

General Blue

Arale

Tao Pai Pi

Karin

Krillin

Fine, I'll give you that one.

Nappa (would have been a Goku win)

That one too

The Entire Red Ribbin Army

Krillin, Roshi, Bulma, Launch, Android 8, Bora (I think that was his name), Karin (he gave Goku training), etc.

Yamcha

His fear of Bulma....

Giran

Kinto'un (Goku had to cheat to win)

Namu

He was hardly impressive

Grandpa Gohan

He wasn't seriously trying to kill him.

Your examples leave much to be desired. You might as well name "random cannon fodder thug #457" next.

His Daizenshuu BASE battle power for the Freeza fight was 300,000

His SSJ state?

150,000,000.

You be the judge.

Ignoring the fact that that's not nearly enough, since when have power levels been a linear or logical indicator of physical strength?

Being able to train in 400x's earth gravity.

First of all, Goku never did that. Second of all, that's nothing. Let's say Goku weighs 82 kilograms (an average weight for an adult male in good physical shape). In 400 times gravity, he would weigh 32,800 kg. That's less impressive than his 40 tons feat! Compare to Superman, who can survive in black hole gravity early on in his career, comfortably sit in the center of the sun (where the pressure is equal to billions of earth gravities), and move moons and planets.

(Now you're probably going to start claiming that this simple, obvious math is bogus and wrong without explaining why).

Nope, but I do know his battle power went from 300,000 to 150,000,000 by going SSJ the first time.

Power levels are not a linear measurement of physical strength increase.

Question: Who's Superman beaten holding back that's more powerful then Kid Buu?

Answer: Nobody.

H/P Doomsday

Mr. Mxy

Dominus

Darkseid

Imperiex probes

Arion

The Auctioneer

Bizarro

E2 Superman

SBP

etc.

Because Vegeta stepped in and blew him away.

But Goku demonstrated clear superiority over him before that.

Since when? I only see them huffing and puffing after expelling their planet destroying ki waves.

What manga are you reading?

Roshi vs. Goku - both were exhausted at the end of the fight

Tien vs. Goku - same thing

Goku vs. Picollo Daimao

Goku vs. Picollo Jr

Goku vs. Vegeta

Gohan vs. Frieza (Gohan was exhausted, Frieza went to his next form)

Picollo vs. Frieza (same thing)

Goku vs. Frieza

Picollo vs. 17 (Picollo was getting exhausted)

Cell vs. Goku (They were both exhausted)

Cell vs. Gohan

Gohan vs. Dabura

Goku vs. Vegeta (second fight)

Gotenks vs. Super Buu

Gohan vs. Super Buu

Vegeto vs. Super Buu

Kid Buu vs. Mr. Buu

Vegeta and Goku vs. Kid Buu

Practically every fight

Superman would probably be huffing and puffing if he was capable of expelling this much power too.

Except he does, and he doesn't get tired nearly as easily.

No they don't.

Yes they do. This is explicitly stated. Otherwise why can't they sense the androids?

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7353/androidshavenoki1vq4.gif

Which is also unlimited ki.

Androids don't have ki.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7061/androidshavenokikg2.gif

That's your whole argument. I said Gohan was unable to see Yamcha fight because he moved too fast and then you elaborated and argued your own elaboration.

Yet they could only move that fast for short bursts, not for the whole fight.

Yep, I've read the entire manga.

They weren't moving around much, most of the fight was done in stationary positions with them ooing and ahhhing each other with what they could do.

Wrong.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/316/humanspercieve37oz7.gif
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6446/humanspercieve39zo8.jpg
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/3374/humanspercieve43xr2.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/1989/humanspercieve44ms3.jpg

I've read the manga too, so don't think you can get away with lying.

Bzzzt wrong.

You're wrong. The scans prove it.

Bzzzt wrong.

I love how you actually think just saying my arguments are wrong without explaining why is an effective debate strategy.

I know, now show me someone following it with their own two.

So you think that Babidi was not only observing the fight, but telepathically slowing it down while broadcasting it to everyone? Let me ask you something - have you ever heard of a principle called Occam's Razor?

Oh, you're talking about the one you made up.

No, I'm talking about this one:

http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=humanspercieve57qe4.gif
http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=humanspercieve60tn9.gif
http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=humanspercieve61sy8.gif
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6766/humanspercieve62sr6.gif
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7113/humanspercieve63gk5.gif
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/558/humanspercieve64yb4.gif
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3529/humanspercieve65yh2.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9315/humanspercieve66ab2.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8789/humanspercieve67gr2.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2484/humanspercieve68cz6.gif

*waits for some bullshit excuse for why these don't count*

Yeah, his nonchalant attitude and having not thrown a punch the entire match really proves your point.

He deliberately powered up to SSJ2 to overload him. That was his plan. He couldn't do it in SSJ1.

Goku only went SSJ1 so he could see the room. Stop using your special addition non-canon manga as proof.

That's funny, because I'm the one actually posting scans to back up what I say.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2281/gokuyakonsj3.gif
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6052/gokuyakon2or9.gif - Vegeta says he has a plan
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9066/gokuyakon3iq7.gif - Notice how his front 2 bangs of hair move from hanging downwards to upwards, signifying SSJ2
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2287/gokuyakon5eu4.gif - And Vegeta confirms it.

Would you look at that? Seems like the actual manga supports exactly what I said.

Panel showed 6 orbits. And he claimed he made dozens? I don't remember that.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7505/gotenksflight1wg8.jpg

Trace the paths. 5 orbits (the current vertical one he's on, one roughly parallel to that and to the left, one perpendicular to those two, another one sort of around the Arctic circle, and another one around the earth vertically).

Yeah, he just made special note to draw the vapor trails and have them take a ONE MINUTE NAP (that's right, he took a nap for one minute, so says Endless Mike) so Superman fans around the globe can ignore what's in their face in a vs topic argument.

Strawman. I never specified the length of the nap. I said it was never stated (and it was). Your statement that the nap was 29 minutes and the whole thing took 1 second is just ridiculous anyway. Do you really have no concept of a time - lapse image? Again I refer you to this:

http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d6sp.gif

Besides, naps in DBZ have been known to take very short amounts of time:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8691/shortnapmd1.gif

Then what makes your bias filled piece of garbage argument any more correct then my logical inference based on what's in my face?

The fact that he took a whole minute to reach Buu's house immediately afterwards? Note that I'm not attempting to attach clear numbers to the length of the nap or the initial flight, because it's unknown. You're the one doing that, (without supporting evidence), which makes you the biased one. Of course anyone reading this thread with an open mind could easily see that.

Mr. Pot Meet Mr. Kettle, good job, now I want you to retract any statements that say it took them most of their fusion time. You don't know how long they took

Yes I do.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2131/gotenksflight2gg3.jpg

Pay attention to what Picollo says.

but you do know their is a panel that shows them flying around it several times in a second leaving a vapor trail in their wake.

"a second" - This was stated where?

Your double standards are hilarious. When I post scans that directly state something actually did take place in a second (Krillin and Roshi) you say they're wrong, but when there's a scan with a specific event and no time shown, you just say it's a second.

And Gotenks arrogance had nothing to do with him taking his sweet time when it's shown he can go around the world several times in a panel?

Since when was a "panel" a standardized measurement of time? 🙄

Only thing it proves is that you're a selective reader who's main argument is to undercut DBZ at any chance you get.

I'm using canon evidence from both sides, not artificially inflating DBZ power and saying that one side won't use abilities they've proven to have just because they don't use them all the time.

Just like how there would be absolutely no reason for Superman to get tagged by General Eiling when his fighting speed is lightspeed+ and he stated to Steel to go all out.

Except he's actually shown the ability to move/fight faster than that.

"nowhere was the length of the nap or the flight stated." - Endless Mike.

Too bad that 29 minutes refers to the total combined time of the nap and the flight together. Next time try reading more carefully.

Hello biased liar.

Talking to yourself is a sign of insanity, you know.

Way to point out a fallacy by comparing dazzling humans to fighters who all dwarf someone who could move 1,000,000 km in a day in the speed department, really top notch debating there.

All it means is that the initial speed is faster, not that you can actually quantify how much faster one character is than the other.

1 day.

24 hours.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/2482/snakeway1gs3.jpg

Are you sure you've read the manga?

Oh and Goku cut no corners, 1,000,000 km is the distance between KK and the look out. Unless you believe Yemma is a moron and didn't take into consideration that Goku can fly when he explained it to him.

More proof you haven't read the manga. Enma didn't explain it to him, one of his assistants did. And he didn't say "the distance between here and King Kai's place is 1,000,000 km", he said "The Length of Snake Way is 1,000,000 km" - as in the length of the physical structure itself.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/73/snakewaysn8.jpg

Who cares about techniques? This is strength. By all means, argue that Tao Pai Pi is physically stronger then Goku at the end of the series, great way to win brownie points with your butt-buddy mod friends.

Name a strength feat that exceeds that, then.

So? He traveled from Earth to the sun and then fought Wonder Woman at human speeds. Your point? Can I say Goku used instantaneous movement to get from Earth to New Namek as a argument for his fight speed now?

Human speeds? WTF are you talking about? They were flying at that speed all around the world, and into space to the sun, while they were simultaneously fighting. That means he was reacting and fighting at those speeds.

Instant transmission is teleportation, not speed.

Yes you can. By all means, if you find a PG durability feat that dwarfs Superman's top stuff (since this is your arguing style, only top feats count) use it.

Wonder Woman took the combined attacks of the Greek Pantheon (multiple Skyfathers), for one.

Then why is he speedblitzing Goku?

Because of the Full Capacity rule, and because Goku is using speed himself.

And the anime shows them speedblitzing all the time.

The anime is non - canon (and it's still art style).

As opposed to your taking shots to the face = more skill then parrying and dodging blows.

If you know said shots to the face won't hurt you, what's wrong with taking them?

*clicks Superman board*
*sees no forum rules*
*points and laughs*

The rules apply here as well.

No, going by your rules, Piccolo and Roshi can not destroy a moon. Going by my rules, Freeza's mainschtick is that he destroyed a planet which was 10x's the size of Earth because he felt threatened by the race (towards the end, that was the whole point of the storyline, avenging the race of saiyans) and Piccolo, Goku, Gohan and company were written more powerful then this established planet buster therefore

Piccolo >>> Earth.

I don't know why you're trying to impose your poorly put together rules with mine.

Stop backpeddling. Your whole argument is that if someone doesn't do something all the time, they can't or won't really do it. So since Frieza only destroyed a planet twice (and once was off - panel), he can't really do it.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Look I agree that supes would win but some dudes on here have to admit that Cell could have destroyed a solar system. Akira wouldnt have wrote it if it wasnt true guys.

So any time a fictional character says something, it's automatically true because the writer wrote them saying it? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is?

Don't worry, it's only true if it under cuts DB.

For instance

Freeza saying Goku would die in space = 100% true.

FREEZA said it so it MUST BE TRUE.

Cell saying he'd blow away a solar system = 100% false.

CELL said it so it MUST BE LIES.

Because Freeza is a more reliable source then Cell.

Except that Frieza's statement wasn't contradicted. (Cell's was when the attack only made a small crater).

Also Frieza wasn't the only one who said that Goku couldn't breathe in space, King Kai also confirmed it:

http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gokubreathe1hp3.gif
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9241/gokubreathe3dm9.gif

Goku himself confirmed it:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4448/gokubreathe2vl1.gif
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9126/gokubreathe4mg2.gif

Also back in Dragonball Goku couldn't breathe underwater either:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4625/gokubreathe5ok6.jpg
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/9012/gokubreathe6fo0.jpg

Biased claims would be Superman goes into every fight blitzing and will beat Goku based on a speedblitz when this rarely occurs.

Oh and then linking to some other forums rules to win a lost point.

Those are the rules of this forum.

And he is bloodlusted in this fight, read the OP.

Yamcha and Tien moving so fast Gohan is unable to follow.

That's not the same as playing janken and doing all that other stuff.

Goku hitting Rekuum 3x's and nobody seeing it but Vegeta.

Same thing.

Goku moving so fast he appeared still to two of the fastest beings in the Universe (Jeece and Baata).

Appeared still? What is that supposed to mean? And Burter and Jeice weren't that fast, they were just full of themselves. They knew Frieza was faster than them. They have no quantifiable speed feats either.

Freeza's ki beams moving so fast they are invisible to everyone but Vegeta.

How is that even remotely similar to what Krillin and Roshi did?

Freeza's dodging everyone's blows by seemingly cracking his neck.

And moving the rest of his body. That's still not the same thing.

Looks like you don't have any examples of what I asked for.

Lol more bad math based on made up numbers

So the circumference of the earth and the speed of light are "made up numbers"?

PS:

"nowhere was the length of the nap or the flight stated." - Endless Mike.

The initial flight. Not the flight to Buu's house. Pay attention.

Yeah by a lot more you mean you probably mean an extra 2-5.

WOMG stop the presses

He was a major character in the longest arc in the entire manga....

So instead, you only focus on the high end stuff since it rarely happens and Superman surviving a attack from Imperiex came up when he was downed by Dr. Light?

Good stuff.

Biased, liar.

Well, that couldn't be due to the fact that Dr. Light's powers can work in ways other than just brute force, could it? Of course a DBZ fanboy wouldn't know anything about that. And you're the biased liar, I'm the one who's constantly pointing out your lies.

Why else do you think Shaggy Man is a tier above Juggernaut in the comics list?

H/P DD is higher then Gog Wars Doomsday?

Etc etc etc.

Except he's not.

What's retarded is going into a fight thinking Superman's going to always operate at his high end and use every power to the fullest, despite 20 years of showings where he does the contrary.

He will in a bloodlusted fight using the full capacity rule (which applies to the entire forum). Not to mention he doesn't have to worry about hurting innocent people on an empty earth, or holding back.

Oh so he goes light speed, knocks the planet out of orbit, and kills Goku instead?

Possibly. He's shown the ability to do that kind of thing.

Oh, you mean the instance where Freeza's says Goku will die from SUFFOCATION and not the harsh conditions of space? Sounds a lot like Superman before he learned to breathe in space.

All he says is that Goku won't survive in space.

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9099/gokubreathebj4.gif

And you call me a liar....

Show me a saiyan being unable to survive a fight in space (which is irrelevant to Goku, instantaneous movement).

Show me a Saiya-jin actually fighting in space first (fillers don't count, and Bardock was only shown in a flashback in the upper atmosphere). As for IT, he has to lock onto a ki signature first, and that won't work if he doesn't know where one is. Besides, teleporting to another planet counts as forfeiting the fight.

What forum rules? You talking about the stuff that only applies in the versus boards?

It applies to all of the forums. It would just be redundant to post it in every single one.

And has proven to rarely use.

He uses them often, if the situation merits it. I read it happening in the comics I pick up lots of times. Besides, this is a PIS - free bloodlusted full capacity battle.

Every one out of maybe 100 showings.

Wrong. I read comics and it happens frequently.

No, that would be you. My claim is that because it RARELY happens in the comics it will RARELY happen in a Goku fight.

He will if he's fighting someone who uses speed himself (which he is) and if he's bloodlusted (which he is) and if he doesn't have to worry about hurting innocent people (which he doesn't) and if the rules say he will (which they do).

But keep fan wanking S-Man.

Right, claiming he can do things that he's actually done is "fan - wanking", while claiming Goku is faster and stronger than Superman with no evidence isn't. Sure.... 🙄

What theory? You're the one with the theory's, I'm just pointing and laughing at your sad use of real world logic in a manga like DB to prove a versus topic point.

The theory (more like hypothesis) that DBZ characters can fire planet destroying attacks but mysteriously make 99.9999999999999% of their power disappear into nowhere and the rest just create a small crater. How is it possible to conduct a vs. debate without using logic?

Well let's see, first you read the books with the characters (something, I sorely suggest you to start doing), then you pick which one would win based on what they show you on average over the course of the book. Simple stuff really.

And how do you tell what "what they show you" means without logic? If you see someone lifting a 10 - ton weight in a comic book, you would logically conclude that they could lift 10 tons. Without logic, you wouldn't be able to conclude anything.

That makes no sense, your real world logic dictates that Ki attacks are just a unstable kinetic punch. Basically if you can take the heat, it's nothing more then a punch.

Wrong. Ki attacks have shown many different properties. They can function as kinetic attacks, explosive, piercing, cutting, burning, etc. It's hard to generalize them.

Okay, I'll not take your word for it. Though Krillin isn't really relevant considering his D-bility is a lot lower.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/8739/krillinhurtbyrockkx0.jpg

The point was about DB characters in general so it still applies.

Yeah sure, and I guess Freeza's comment about Goku dying in space would be hyperbole too, correct?

How could it possibly be hyperbole when it was not a comment on the scale of something, so it could not be an exaggeration? Would the non - hyperbole version be "Goku would only die a little bit in space"? 😆

So? In the anime it shows him blowing it away with a ki bomb, I see no reason why that couldn't be the method.

Because the anime isn't canon.

Glad you agree.

I was quoting you. It took at most 29 minutes.

Glad you agree.

I was quoting you. It was stone.

That's a stupid statement.

So stop saying it.

That's a stupid statement.

Yes it is.

Never said Krillin and Roshi were as fast as Flash

Originally posted by Joey Stacks
No, but they have been shown with Flash level goofiness (like Roshi and Krillin's first fight)

or DBZ characters are faster then Superman because of blurry lines.

Then what's all this talk of "they speedblitz all the time!!!11!"

LOL it's fiction.

Yet you're claiming he has real martial arts skill. Nice backpeddling.

So petty.

You think you should be able to get away with exaggerating a feat two times over and when I call you on it, it's petty? What would you say if I claimed Superman beat 2 Cannibal Planets at once, or absorbed 2 Mageddon Warheads simultaneously?

It happened in a flash, in the anime it was just a darkened scene indicating a blink of the eye. Lol at you eventually calling an elaboration of the scene through use of animation filler.

Well the anime is non - canon. If you want I can bring up all of the stupid things like Goku and Picollo not being able to lift a bus.

It doesn't matter anyway since the manga explicitly stated 1 second.

I can't believe you have the nerve to call me biased when you think you can just ignore the canon manga when it doesn't suit your arguments.

One second being a general term for really fast.

Then they would have said "a second" or "a split second" or "a moment" or "an instant". No, wait, scratch that, that would have made it pointless for the announcer to ask in the first place, since the answer wouldn't mean anything. Let's substitute your term for what was actually said.

Krillin: And that's what happened.

Announcer: Wow, you did all of that in a really fast period of time?

Krillin: *nods*

He already knew it was fast! He was asking how fast it was specifically (one second) and Krillin confirmed it. Stop trying to overinflate DBZ capabilities and dismiss canon information.

Yeah, I guess, if you spend every waking moment of your life reading comics and manga and believe playing 3 games of janken vs 1 1/2 is a HUGE DEAL.

So saying a feat is twice as impressive as it actually is doesn't count as lying or exaggerating in your world?

Your whole argument is based on dishonesty

That's just restating your original thesis - circular reasoning.

created numbers

Such as...?

Are you saying I made up the circumference of the Earth, the speed of light, human reaction time, the numbers which are clearly stated in the manga and comics? All of these can be easily looked up.

and undercutting abilities.

Examples?

Oh and making up quotes

It's not my fault that you can't remember what you yourself stated.

😂 @ facts. More like, horseshit. Get your horseshit off my computer screen, boy.

I'm still not seeing any actual refutation to my arguments.

Your entire equation is based on random numbers you pulled out your ass. Wtf.

Human reaction time is a random number?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time

Counting the amount of actions shown in the manga is a random number?

The numbers for the time taken that are directly stated in the manga are random numbers?

wtf, indeed.

Your power level is the some of all your abilities, how effective your battle prowess is, your threat level. Prove speed isn't relevant to any of those.

Strawman. I never said it wasn't relevant, I said it wasn't a direct correlation.

Yeah in your fan made, Endless Mike comics, in my comics, (the real stuff, AC, Superman and JL) he rarely operates at the level you're implying.

Liar. Just in the recent comics I've read, he's speedblitzed Subjekt 17, carried Batman away from a battlezone faster than he could react, searched every building and structure in a 200 mile radius in the time it took John Henry Irons to say a sentence or two, flown from Vega to Earth (23 light - years) in a few minutes, flown fast enough to create a huge maelstrom in the Atlantic ocean that exposed the bare ocean floor to the air, carried a bomb into space and back in seconds, fought some space bounty hunters all around the earth, and lots of other stuff I can't even remember at the moment.

I dunno why I ever even pop in here anymore. It's always the same old, same old. Mike owning the hell out of the newest fantard to drop by.

Originally posted by Soljer
I dunno why I ever even pop in here anymore. It's always the same old, same old. Mike owning the hell out of the newest fantard to drop by.

Yet they never give up. It's truly a neverending battle (lol, pun).

Although I can't take all the credit, I can't refute every argument by everyone all by my lonesome. (That is, I appreciate any help anyone is willing to give me).

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yet they never give up. It's truly a neverending battle (lol, pun).

Although I can't take all the credit, I can't refute every argument by everyone all by my lonesome. (That is, I appreciate any help anyone is willing to give me).

Not really. Some people are just too plain stubborn to get "owned". (Phenomenol?)

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not really. Some people are just too plain stubborn to get "owned". (Phenomenol?)

Guys, I just want to apologize for starting these threads, I didn't no it would get that out of hand 😮

excuse me, try to be polite please.

my point is most of you didn't show any scans proving superman's traveling speed and his agility are equal, only assumptions. show me were supes stated that or shown, not assume.

1.)cell could destroy solar system, stated as cell was concentrating his energy.

2.)goku is fighting faster than light at ginyu arc, stated as baata can't hit goku.

a fact can’t be countered, the comic states something so you can’t go and argue it can’t no matter how hard you try

science does not apply in fictional accounts such as this. Can a person blast a planet into oblivion or move it in another galaxy? Obviously not. It’s already proven the fictions are made to be not scientific and they are hardly logical. It cannot be proven by formulas, logic, equations and opinions unless it was clearly stated.

fictions contain plot holes, and they are completely irrelevant to formulas and science.

it's fact as long as it was stated or shown in the comics.

Crossovers usually beat logic, so equations cannot prove who is stronger.