Classic Juggernaut v.s. WWH

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
And the rocks up in the air from both sides (when Juggy was just acting as a wall) was because they were turning into super sayians?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You tried the lil at-home experiment? It takes five seconds. Explain how your left foot heel's lifted up when you pushed against the immovable wall and how the wall doesn't have anything built up behind it. There's your answer.

You still didn't answer my question. You assess that the Hulk and Juggernaut were at a stalemate in that test of strength no? Going by this and your little experiment wouldn't both monsters have the same thing going on around their feet? If, as you say, the reason Hulks foot appears to be sliding and debris is building up behind his foot is because he's essentially pushing against an immovable wall, wouldn't the same be true for the Juggernaut?

^ Not necessarily. If Juggernaut is acting as the unmovable wall. If you tried that experiment with your friend in place of the wall, then you'd both have the same thing happen to your feet's placement. But a wall doesn't move. And if there is any character that would act as a virtual wall for unrelenting strength to struggle against, it's the Juggernaut.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wait what? Are you saying that rocks being lifted from the ground can only suggest one thing, movement? Let me ask you this. Look at it from this perspective. How would you push against someone? Are those rocks being lifted from the ground by Juggs pushing against someone by dragging his leading toe forward? That doesn't even make sense! Collateral damage varies widely in depiction. It makes more sense that it was their unbridled power causing rocks to lift from the ground super-saiyan style. Hell this artist does the same exact thing here in an even more exaggerated manner and neither of them are being pushed backwards or forwards:

Comparison from 1992 to 2007? Also, I didn't see things floating in the air. I saw things get knocked down.

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Also, if you actually look at the art of the page in question, Hulk was on the tip of his toes the whole time.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And if there is any character that would act as a virtual wall for unrelenting strength to struggle against, it's the Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
If he is dragging his lead toe forward, then he would be smashing through rock to do so. And if he's just digging in more, and pushing him with his upper body, then that would cause so as well.

Comparison from 1992 to 2007? Also, I didn't see things floating in the air. I saw things get knocked down.

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Also, if you actually look at the art of the page in question, Hulk was on the tip of his toes the whole time.

I don't see why comparing two instances from different comics, regardless of publication date speaks against the idea of stuff flying everywhere. If you don't see all the lil bits of debris spraying all over the place in the bottom left-hand panel, then that's your business.

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Also, if you actually look at the art of the page in question, Hulk was NOT on the tip of his toes to the same extent from the second to the third panel. Even that much is clear.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Isn't it 'Nothing stops the Juggernaut', not 'Nothing moves the Juggernaut'?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It doesn't make sense for Juggernaut to be dragging his lead toe forward in a pushing contest. Go ahead and try to push against something. Anything. Do you accomplish that by dragging your front toe forward? It makes no sense.

I don't see why comparing two instances from different comics, regardless of publication date speaks against the idea of stuff flying everywhere. If you don't see all the lil bits of debris spraying all over the place in the bottom left-hand panel, then that's your business.

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Also, if you actually look at the art of the page in question, Hulk was NOT on the tip of his toes to the same extent from the second to the third panel. Even that much is clear.
Thank you Mr. Semantics. clown

Older comics were more out there. Apparently back then if you arm wrestle, you can throw the planet out of orbit.
I see pillars cracking and stones falling. I don't see things rising in the air from the ground though.

Ya, and we also can't see all the lines on Juggernaut's costume. The pic wasn't up close, and thus less detailed, and even then it was obvious that Hulk was on his toes.

Also, I just tried to push against a wall, and both of my feet went backwards. Which indicates that if I were to stand up straight, I would have been moved backwards.

I don't know what to say really... I mean, if that's what you believe over Hulk getting pushed backwards (even though it didn't work for me), then who am I to disagree?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Not necessarily. If Juggernaut is acting as the unmovable wall. If you tried that experiment with your friend in place of the wall, then you'd both have the same thing happen to your feet's placement. But a wall doesn't move. And if there is any character that would act as a virtual wall for unrelenting strength to struggle against, it's the Juggernaut.

:😖hrugs:: We'll agree to disagree then. I've had this debate many times in the past and it never seems to get anywhere.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
That's why I said two things.

Older comics were more out there. Apparently back then if you arm wrestle, you can throw the planet out of orbit.
I see pillars cracking and stones falling. I don't see things rising in the air from the ground though.

Ya, and we also can't see all the lines on Juggernaut's costume. The pic wasn't up close, and thus less detailed, and even then it was obvious that Hulk was on his toes.

Also, I just tried to push against a wall, and both of my feet went backwards. Which indicates that if I were to stand up straight, I would have been moved backwards.

I don't know what to say really... I mean, if that's what you believe over Hulk getting pushed backwards (even though it didn't work for me), then who am I to disagree?

All you need to do is acknowledge that WWH's foot wasn't as far on his tip-toes as it was in the previous panel. You did that, I don't really need the rest. Equivocating that it was less detailed and using that excuse to reason that WWH's feet were at the same raised position as it was in the third panel all throughout when by plain presentation of the panels, they simply aren't is not a convincing way of arguing this.

Dude. If I didn't know better, I'd day you were being a jerk. But looking back at my instructions, maybe I wasn't being clear enough. Keep both your heels on the ground. Go do the same thing again, and try to keep your right heel on the ground and stationary. Now push forward with your left foot. It'll slide backwards and your heel will raise. Your body's relative position has not been pushed backwards. Ta-da.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
:😖hrugs:: We'll agree to disagree then. I've had this debate many times in the past and it never seems to get anywhere.

Now you tell me why the strongest incarnation of Hulk stalemating the Juggernaut is illogical in this scenario? Hell, War Hulk got pushed back for many yards and proved to be the superior. Here, we have the strongest incarnation of Hulk ever and even by your interpretation, he's being pushed back 2-3 inches? Seriously... what? But like you said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Your reasoning doesn't change the fact that you're using a comic's publication date against correlating similar circumstances and similar occurrences in smilar situations. Here is where I draw red lines around the little stones being kicked up by their struggle. Like I said, neither of them are moving backwards or forwards as the captions state. Therefore, the little rocks rising from the ground in the WWH scan are not an indication of backwards movement:

All you need to do is acknowledge that WWH's foot wasn't as far on his tip-toes as it was in the previous panel. You did that, I don't really need the rest. Equivocating that it was less detailed and using that excuse to reason that WWH's feet were at the same raised position as it was in the third panel all throughout when by plain presentation of the panels, they simply aren't is not a convincing way of arguing this.

Dude. If I didn't know better, I'd day you were being a jerk. But looking back at my instructions, maybe I wasn't being clear enough. Keep both your heels on the ground. Go do the same thing again, and try to keep your right heel on the ground and stationary. Now push forward with your left foot. It'll slide backwards and your heel will raise. Your body's relative position has not been pushed backwards. Ta-da.

And? The stones were obviously from the pillars. You're trying to prove that they were rising from the ground I thought. I mean, that's the only way they would actually be similar.

Even going by this, neither was Jugg's feet. So that means that Juggy was leaning forward while both were holding the same positions. So that should mean that Hulk would be moving backwards for this to happen.
If you're going to reach, I might as well too.

My left foot only moved when I was only using that to push. When I actually tried pushing, I went backwards with both feet. When I started on my toes with my left foot, and my right on the ground (like Hulk), I went backwards.
Maybe Hulk was only using his left foot to push. srug

Anyway, I'm done here until I'm done on Megarotic.

We''ll probably just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B]^ If this was the strongest incarnation of Hulk, even War Hulk proved to be stronger than Juggernaut. And World War Hulk was denting his armor. You could even hear the sound effects of him crushing the armor with applied pressure in the scans I posted on the previous armor. He could harm Juggernaut, just as Juggernaut could harm him. It's a stalemate even with his higher durability, which is offset by WWH's superior strength.

War Hulk had Celestial tech..........

Denting armor is nothing.........I saw World War Hulk Bleed but not Juggernaut bleed.........his enchantment from Cytorrak basically makes him almost completely invulnerable......besides Magic and such almost nothing can harm him.........

Like I said Juggernaut wins/Hulk wins through Battle Field Removal (B.F.R.) or tie.........but if Juggernaut uses all his abilities like his force field then basically Hulk cannot even touch him.......

Also the Spider-man cement situation was bad writing........Hulk was punched out by Spider-man and Captain America.........another example of bad writing that we should ignore........both incidents are silly in my opinion lol..........

Anyways I do not think Hulk can even harm Juggernaut because of the enchantment..........but Juggernaut can harm Hulk.......although the healing factor really comes into play here.......Juggernaut can put Hulk down but Hulk could defeat Juggernaut but not through physical damage.......

If Juggernaut uses all his abilities like his force field and such I believe he takes this but if it is just a meaningless brawl then most likely it would be a tie......Hulk healing from all his damages and Juggernaut being unharmed because of his enchantment.......Hulk could also win through battle field removal (B.F.R)

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Well we will have to see what the future dictates. I think King Hulk would have eventually won if the battle was drawn out.

...HOW?! That is all I want to know, and no one seems able to come up with an answer to this.

Also. Do Hulk supporters believe that WWHulk could completely stop a classic Juggernaut with forward momentum?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
...[B]HOW?! That is all I want to know, and no one seems able to come up with an answer to this. [/B]

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Also. Do Hulk supporters believe that WWHulk could completely stop a classic Juggernaut with forward momentum?

1) Juggernaut has been stopped yet people claim he's "unstoppable"
2) Juggernaut has been physically wrecked, beat so bad that he was scared for his life, yet people claim he cannot be harmed physically
3) Juggernaut has NEVER demonstrated strength anywhere near Hulk's
4) Juggernaut has been casually tossed around by Savage Hulk, whatever the damage done, meaning that Hulk always gets the better of him in a tussle
5a) Hulk DOES possess infinite STAMINA, as it has often been shown that ALL his physical stats are based upon his rising - infinite - power level
5b) fatigue would be required to tire Hulk, fatigue is a poison that acts on the body, Hulk is on-panel immune to all poisons, just to give you a further, secondary argument against this nonsense of Hulk tiring
6) Hulk's biggest feat is containing and channelling universes of energy, by forming the nexus between Franklin's pocket dimension and the 616 universe. he was physically in two places, two infinitely powered Hulks, one dying because of the separation, yet he still channelled energies beyond anything I've seen of a Skyfather, let alone a Herald leveller

Hulk at fairly high levels of power would easily overpower Juggernaut to the extent that Onslaught did, and if Juggernaut were stupid enough to pursue the matter further, it's very probably that Hulk would kill him.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
And the rocks up in the air from both sides (when Juggy was just acting as a wall) was because they were turning into super sayians?

Yes.

WWH would just deplete after a while, like in the fight with Sentry whistling

..

Anyway, I'd go for WWH.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Oh I see. May I have a scan where World War Hulk got tired? Or do you have a scan of even Savage Hulk being exhausted? Hell... even Professor Hulk fought the forces of Hel for days on end before they escaped.

First off if you read my post you would see that I said even if it takes years for it too happen. Fact is hulk in general DOESN'T have unlimited stamina while juggs does have that mystical enchantment. Now WWH not getting tired during only a limited period of time proves nothing. We don't know how he would be after a 3 months or a year or years. The same with Savage hulk and the professor hulk with the examples you used saying he fought for days well this fight would go on a lot longer then days my friend. So, show me a scan or proof that Hulk has unlimited stamina when clearly that has never been said nor shown as part of his skill set. He has a huge amount of stamina but unlimited I think not

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't have an answer for that. If I did, I wouldn't call it a stalemate. But how would Juggernaut beat World War Hulk? Same thing, hence stalemate.
Yeah. Even putting aside what I consider proof that he already did. Strongest Hulk incarnation > War Hulk. The labelling of War Hulk as being amped by Celestial tech is a bit misplaced. It amped his strength. It didn't provide him a means of warping the laws of magic or nullifying Juggernaut's momentum. It just made him stronger.

War Hulk with celestial-amping stopped Juggernaut. You can interpret that any way you want, but then it contradicts what Juggernaut is. He can't be stopped with physical force unless it's backed with some other medium, such as magic or celestial tech.

Regardless. It's pure speculation on both our parts as Apocalypse never clearly states what the celestial tech did. However, one explanation does make more sense than the other when factoring in the lack of proof.

I have never seen Juggernaut unable to lift/pill/push/etc. some object before. Juggy has as much strength as he wants. It's been stated by editors and comics to date have shown him without a strength limit. Therefore, unlimited.

Just because a similar character doesn't have the same feats as one exponentially more popular, doesn't mean it's not true. For example, we haven't seen Gladiator brace a 150 billion ton mountain on his back before. But do we doubt that he can do it?

God. The Gamma Corps took out WWHulk. Why is there this much fight against Juggernaut doing the same when he's ridiculously stronger than the entire Gamma Corps?

Originally posted by janus77
2) Juggernaut has been physically wrecked, beat so bad that he was scared for his life, yet people claim he cannot be harmed physically

4) Juggernaut has been casually tossed around by Savage Hulk, whatever the damage done, meaning that Hulk always gets the better of him in a tussle

Has Juggy ever been physically wrecked by an opponent who is not purely physical in nature/power? Onslaught was a being composed entirely of psionic energy. And was just absurd. He pulled the Gem of Cyttorak out of Juggernaut's chest. 😐 Come on.

And so what if Juggy was tossed around. Does that mean Hulk was winning? Hulk could toss Plastic Man around, too. But I don't think that would constitute a win for Hulk. Juggy did keep coming back for more.