ROTJ Luke vs TPM Maul

Originally posted by Man of Christ
wow if im dueling some stranger, im really going to use the same techniques than if im dueling my father, whom im trying to redeem

He could have used when he was using the darkside or how about use some other force powers such as push or something against Jabas thugs and push them into the sarlaac pit. And just because he is not trying to kill him doesn't mean he could use other force attacks in a duel(if he knew any offensive ones) Vader used the force against him in ESB. Furthermore in any combat situation he seems to pull his lightsaber our first instead of using the force. And once a lightsaber duel starts it is hard to get enough distance to use the force offensively or hard at any distance. You yourself stated that Maul is better than in lightsaber combat so Luke will be doomed because you have not shown enough to say that Luke is above Maul in combat.

And Luke still has not shown any precognition skill to predict attacks. Luke has shown nothing combat wise to suggest he is better than Maul. His greatest combat feat is his victory over vader when using the dark side (vader still is not trying to kill him) and I already stated many times Luke wont have that ferocity against Maul. I have shown that is greatest combat feat had circumstances around it which without it has shown almost nothing in combat against other jedi/sith and that he has nothing on Maul in combat. So please tell why you still think Luke is above Maul.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
He could have used when he was using the darkside or how about use some other force powers such as push or something against Jabas thugs and push them into the sarlaac pit. And just because he is not trying to kill him doesn't mean he could use other force attacks in a duel(if he knew any offensive ones) Vader used the force against him in ESB. Furthermore in any combat situation he seems to pull his lightsaber our first instead of using the force. And once a lightsaber duel starts it is hard to get enough distance to use the force offensively or hard at any distance. You yourself stated that Maul is better than in lightsaber combat so Luke will be doomed because you have not shown enough to say that Luke is above Maul in combat.

And Luke still has not shown any precognition skill to predict attacks. Luke has shown nothing combat wise to suggest he is better than Maul. His greatest combat feat is his victory over vader when using the dark side (vader still is not trying to kill him) and I already stated many times Luke wont have that ferocity against Maul. I have shown that is greatest combat feat had circumstances around it which without it has shown almost nothing in combat against other jedi/sith and that he has nothing on Maul in combat. So please tell why you still think Luke is above Maul.

your first paragraph is disproven because while in saberlock with grevious, kenobi force pushed him into the sealing.
i said maul specializes in combat as opposed to the force, but even this specialization is no match for rotj luke's brute strength.
now to the second paragraph.
he does have some precognition which is why he knew vader was waiting for him, and where to find him. and yes vader in the end was trying tokill him. "if you will not be turned then you will meet your destiny" then used saber throw which is one of the most deadly saber techniques, and hey. it didnt work on luke. luke won a saber lock against vader who's metal limbs exponentialized his strength. whereas maul lost a saber lock to padawan obiwan. so luke is stronger. luke wins.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
your first paragraph is disproven because while in saberlock with grevious, kenobi force pushed him into the sealing.
i said maul specializes in combat as opposed to the force, but even this specialization is no match for rotj luke's brute strength.

For the record I said:

And once a lightsaber duel starts it is hard to get enough distance to use the force offensively or hard at any distance

I said it is hard to use the force once a lightsaber duel starts not impossible. And Luke still could have used the force on Vader even when he was not trying to kill Vader,who did use the force against Luke in ESB. Luke has not shown any offensive force powers in combat situation to say he starts now is a little far fetched and Maul has shown a high degree of force resistance as he was able to immediately continue his fight against the force witch and kill her right afterwards like it didn't even phase him.

now to the second paragraph. he does have some precognition which is why he knew vader was waiting for him, and where to find him. and yes vader in the end was trying tokill him. "if you will not be turned then you will meet your destiny" then used saber throw which is one of the most deadly saber techniques, and hey. it didnt work on luke. luke won a saber lock against vader who's metal limbs exponentialized his strength. whereas maul lost a saber lock to padawan obiwan. so luke is stronger. luke wins.

No evidence of battle precognition and he sensed Vader's presence which is not impossible to believe since he felt Vader's presence when he was on the Executor and Luke was on the shuttle. And sensing him is NOT precognition. And Vader's statement is an ultimatum (he is telling the truth) but there is no indication that he was trying to kill him because he still was taunting to turn when Luke was in hiding. And for the billionth time Luke showed the great strength to over power vader only when he was using the darkside.Which I have said many times that he will not have that ferocity against Maul. And Padawan kenobi beat Maul in a saberlock when he was using the darkside and Maul still out dueled him . And the strongest do not always win to even suggest that just because he may be stronger (especially with the darkside which he does not have) does not guarantee a victory, to say that strongest always wins in absurd statement. Maul still has speed,endurance(I have shown that is better than Luke's). I'd say that Anankin and Grievous are physically stronger than ROTS kenobi and look what happened to them. Maul has shown a lot more in combat than Luke has and Luke's greatest accomplishment of beating Vader occurred when using the darkside which he will not have against Maul.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
For the record I said:

I said it is hard to use the force once a lightsaber duel starts not impossible. And Luke still could have used the force on Vader even when he was not trying to kill Vader,who did use the force against Luke in ESB. Luke has not shown any offensive force powers in combat situation to say he starts now is a little far fetched and Maul has shown a high degree of force resistance as he was able to immediately continue his fight against the force witch and kill her right afterwards like it didn't even phase him.

No evidence of battle precognition and he sensed Vader's presence which is not impossible to believe since he felt Vader's presence when he was on the Executor and Luke was on the shuttle. And sensing him is NOT precognition. And Vader's statement is an ultimatum (he is telling the truth) but there is no indication that he was trying to kill him because he still was taunting to turn when Luke was in hiding. And for the billionth time Luke showed the great strength to over power vader only when he was using the darkside.Which I have said many times that he will not have that ferocity against Maul. And Padawan kenobi beat Maul in a saberlock when he was using the darkside and Maul still out dueled him . And the strongest do not always win to even suggest that just because he may be stronger (especially with the darkside which he does not have) does not guarantee a victory, to say that strongest always wins in absurd statement. Maul still has speed,endurance(I have shown that is better than Luke's). I'd say that Anankin and Grievous are physically stronger than ROTS kenobi and look what happened to them. Maul has shown [B]a lot more in combat than Luke has and Luke's greatest accomplishment of beating Vader occurred when using the darkside which he will not have against Maul. [/B]

to remind you. were talking about ROTJ luke not ESB luke
luke didnt use the force cuz it coulve killed vader
"i will not fight you father" (but hey he still won)
i was talking about how he overcame vader while using the liught which he did and that strength enough would overcome maul
besides, luke is just as short tempered as his father so he could get in the zone and pull a rots anakin on maul
and maul didnt out duel kenobi which is why he used force push
vader did try to kill luke with a saber throw which you didnt refute
luke pwns maul. if maul were so great then that old master past his prime and that young padawan woulve been no match for him. but hey. maul is dead so lets move on.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
to remind you. were talking about ROTJ luke not ESB luke
luke didnt use the force cuz it coulve killed vader
"i will not fight you father" (but hey he still won)

i was talking about how he overcame vader while using the liught which he did and that strength enough would overcome maul

besides, luke is just as short tempered as his father so he could get in the zone and pull a rots anakin on maul

There is ZERO proof that Luke can go in the zone like Anakin as described in the rots novel) did so you would need to show some proof.

and maul didnt out duel kenobi which is why he used force push vader did try to kill luke with a saber throw which you didnt refute

luke pwns maul. if maul were so great then that old master past his prime and that young padawan woulve been no match for him. but hey. maul is dead so lets move on.[

lmao there is NO pwnage here. Maul was INJURED before the duel started and he killed Qui-gon who is one of the most able duelist in the order and had kenobi beat even when he was using the darkside.
You keep saying "Maul died" well guess what Dooku died as did the emepror so and were they weak? No. And the emperor died in a very pathetic way yet he is the most powerful sith. And did you miss all I have posted on Maul's skill? Which outclasses Luke's. Maul made Anoon Bondara quite easily one of the greatest if not the greatest duelist prior to TPM.(as said in cloak of deception and shadow hunter) and most likely the battle master of the jedi order of 10,000 realize he could not defeat Maul. That speaks volumes for Maul' skills while Luke's greatest combat achievement is tainted.

Luke(Post DE) evens admits that Vader could have killed him if vader tried in book called "The courtship of Princess Leia."

Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me. Who had Luke been kidding?.......

Luke realized that Vader was not trying to kill him (this was stated before this a little earlier in the book that Vader sought to turn him in his conlficts with Luke) If Vader had tried to kill Luke he would have died.

And in the comic(which is canon) that Vader faced Maul. They were evenly matched as Vader was trying to kill Maul as the fight was to see who the true sith apprentice. While Vader eventually won He suffered massive injuries and this when he was going all out against Maul.

Maul beats Luke with moderate to a little more difficulty.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I know it is rotj all I said that was in the duel vs ESB LUke Vader used the force and he was not trying to kill Luke. I highly doubt that Luke would be able to kill Vader with the force.

That kick barely phased Vader and if anything Maul has a great advantage in using his body in fact in the comic in which Vader fights Maul,Maul actually hits him in the face. Maul is by far the superior "unarmed"(if you would call it that) fighter.

There is ZERO proof that Luke can go in the zone like Anakin as described in the rots novel) did so you would need to show some proof.

First all he was quite clearly out dueling a darkside kenobi and especially using the martial arts with kicks. I did refute it because if Vader was trying to kill Luke he could have easily used the force since he is greater than Luke there plus he just calmly walks down the ramp after throwing his saber.

lmao there is NO pwnage here. Maul was INJURED before the duel started and he killed Qui-gon who is one of the most able duelist in the order and had kenobi beat even when he was using the darkside.
You keep saying "Maul died" well guess what Dooku died as did the emepror so and were they weak? No. And the emperor died in a very pathetic way yet he is the most powerful sith. And did you miss all I have posted on Maul's skill? Which outclasses Luke's. Maul made Anoon Bondara quite easily one of the greatest if not the greatest duelist prior to TPM.(as said in cloak of deception and shadow hunter) and most likely the battle master of the jedi order of 10,000 realize he could not defeat Maul. That speaks volumes for Maul' skills while Luke's greatest combat achievement is tainted.

that counts for nothing you see, quigonn was a shadow of his former self at the time, and MAUL DIDNT BEAT OBI WAN, thats why he died.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
that counts for nothing you see, quigonn was a shadow of his former self at the time, and MAUL DIDNT BEAT OBI WAN, thats why he died.

Qui-gon still had years of experience and technique that while he may not be able to keep up as long but still is very deadly. And I know Maul didn't kill him but he beat him and the duel did stop with Maul looking at Kenobi and the kenobi did a move that surprised Maul And the fact that duel played out the way it did with Maul controlling most of the duel until kenobi used the dark side and it began more close with a very badly injured leg and he still managed to seperate them and perform those incredible acrobatic maneuvers speaks a lot for his endurance.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Qui-gon still had years of experience and technique that while he may not be able to keep up as long but still is very deadly. And I know Maul didn't kill him but he beat him and the duel did stop with Maul looking at Kenobi and the kenobi did a move that surprised Maul And the fact that duel played out the way it did with Maul controlling most of the duel until kenobi used the dark side and it began more close with a very badly injured leg and he still managed to seperate them and perform those incredible acrobatic maneuvers speaks a lot for his endurance.

Originally posted by Se7in
Beating the crap out of them both? I disagree, he was winning, but not by any huge margin. He managed to knock Obi-Wan down and separate them for the majority of the fight, and was backhanded and knocked on his ass by Qui-Gon and again with a kick to the chest by Obi. Just because Maul used fancy acrobatics doesn't mean he was winning the entire duel.

The duel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eTWnbSDJYw

Obi-Wan managed to overpower Maul at 3:48, again at 3:58, chop his saber in half at the 4:00 mark and subsequently knock him on his ass. The only time Obi-Wan does get knocked back at the fight, is at 4:07, in which he completely recovers instantly. Only 4:21 does Maul take the advantage, and only because there was a hole behind him. Other than that, Obi seems to have the entire fight within his grasp.

And a very badly injured leg? He hurt his ankle, not his leg. And it couldn't have been that serious because he managed to run up the side of a cliff vertically to escape them.

Originally posted by Se7in
And a very badly injured leg? He hurt his ankle, not his leg. And it couldn't have been that serious because he managed to run up the side of a cliff vertically to escape them.

The novel makes it clear that Maul was in control.(Qui-gon recognized this) And in regards to his injury he says he forced himself to run at normal speed and strength meaning he couldn't be around 100% (I'd personally say about 80-85)

Edt: The wound was in his thigh and he felt it tearing when he scaled the wall. And it seems it was bad enough for him not to report it to Sidious so it must have been more than a cut or a limp.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Qui-gon still had years of experience and technique that while he may not be able to keep up as long but still is very deadly. And I know Maul didn't kill him but he beat him and the duel did stop with Maul looking at Kenobi and the kenobi did a move that surprised Maul And the fact that duel played out the way it did with Maul controlling most of the duel until kenobi used the dark side and it began more close with a very badly injured leg and he still managed to seperate them and perform those incredible acrobatic maneuvers speaks a lot for his endurance.

but qui-gon was still past his prime. if you saw in thier 1st duel on tatooine qui-gon was sweating profusely after only a short duel with maul. and ill bet durring thier second duel. poor old maul really enjoyed hiding behind that ray shield.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
but qui-gon was still past his prime. if you saw in thier 1st duel on tatooine qui-gon was sweating profusely after only a short duel with maul. and ill bet durring thier second duel. poor old maul really enjoyed hiding behind that ray shield.

I admit he was past him prime but if you have the technique down pat (he was still called one of the most able jedi in the order but that besides the point) you can use that to lower the cap in age and physicality and Maul had the injured thigh too. And btw do you now admit based on my previous post that VAder could kill Luke if Vader tried as Luke himself said? There is pwngae here for either of them but Maul would still win a fair amount of difficulty.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
The novel makes it clear that Maul was in control.(Qui-gon recognized this) And in regards to his injury he says he forced himself to run at normal speed and strength meaning he couldn't be around 100% (I'd personally say about 80-85)

Edt: The wound was in his thigh and he felt it tearing when he scaled the wall. And it seems it was bad enough for him not to report it to Sidious so it must have been more than a cut or a limp.

I'd imagine Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were both actually limited fighting him at the same time. Especially given that they used a very mobile and physical form of fighting involving acrobatics such as turns and flips, Obi-Wan fared much better when he was alone than when he was with Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Se7in
I'd imagine Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were both actually limited fighting him at the same time. Especially given that they used a very mobile and physical form of fighting involving acrobatics such as turns and flips, Obi-Wan fared much better when he was alone than when he was with Qui-Gon.

There best shot at fighting at the same time (that would have the best results) was in the begining when they had more room in the hanger otherwise Maul did though kind of lead them to an area where there 2 vs 1 advantage was limited. And Kenobi did fight better alone yet Maul still beat him when used the darkside.(kenobi since calmed down while hanging)

Why is this still going on?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Why is this still going on?

IDK honestly, while Luke is good he simply he is not better than Maul(or Vader) at this point put he can put a good fight.

Not really. Maul should take him easily, Luke has some skill but when he goes berserk it's "baseball bat form".

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Not really. Maul should take him easily, Luke has some skill but when he goes berserk it's "baseball bat form".

well im sure if the sequel trilogy had nick gilliard it'd be a diffrent story

Originally posted by Darth Hord
There best shot at fighting at the same time (that would have the best results) was in the begining when they had more room in the hanger otherwise Maul did though kind of lead them to an area where there 2 vs 1 advantage was limited. And Kenobi did fight better alone yet Maul still beat him when used the darkside.(kenobi since calmed down while hanging)

maul didnt beat him,. if that hole wasnt there it'd been mauls behind. he got lucky with the geography.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
well im sure if the sequel trilogy had nick gilliard it'd be a diffrent story