Superman vs Black Adam(punchfest)

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Cap catches Eclipso Superman's punch when he's flying straight at him with one hand.

Superman catches Billy's punch with two hands.

OMG I'M SO MUCH MORE IMPRESSED WITH SUPERMAN!

Who's trying to impress you? Superman was weakened and exhausted and you obviously has no experience with aikido or judo.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/sb-04-18.jpg

He used only one hand catch the punch while using other hand to transfer the momentum and threw marvel away. OMG I'M SO MUCH MORE IMPRESSED WITH MARVEL GETTING THROWN AWAY BY A WEAKENED SUPERMAN!!

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, he did
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/ac768b.jpg

He didn't yell. 😬

Originally posted by abhilegend

That's why he can catch superman's punch at an impossible position and struggle against an unwilling eclipso on the very next page.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/271_Superman_v2_216_Page_06_Image_0001.jpg

I don't see any lightning effect here, so how can you tell he's still amping with the Zeus power?

That could be baseline strength Cap struggling against Eclipso.

Trying to judge when he's amping with Zeus or not is stupid anyways.. I'd just assume he's always mixing and maxing his powers in a way that rivals Suiperman... There's not really any evidence he can be caught unamped, so it's a pointless argument...

The only time Cap is "amping" with the Power of Zeus is when he charges his fist with magical energy, and all that does is basically give him +x amount of "magic lightning dmg" on top of his physical blows. But yeah, both Cap and Black Adam often have lightning drawn about them even when they're not punching something. It doesn't mean they're using Zeus/Aton to amp their physical attributes.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Who said I don't like it? I already told you why I personally don't take much stock in it because:

A.) It was the only time Cap used Atlas' strength and not stamina, the attribute Atlas bestows upon Cap.

It's one of the two times cap has stalemated superman in an armwrestle. One is off-panel and both were likely holding back then. Here marvel was using everything in his power to win that armwrestling and still couldn't. I'm not exactly sure why would we throw a showing away because it never happened again considering its one of the only two times cap has explicitly armwrestled superman. Doesn't people like to think based on those armwrestling cap is exact equal in strength to superman. I don't consider catching punches is any measure of strength otherwise

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/wonderwoman_175_29.jpg

Diana is an equal in strength to an amped superman!!

B.) Cap has never had to explicitly call upon his powers in such a manner to match Superman before or after that instance, hence my skepticism to believe that we should suddenly believe Cap needs Atlas' Strength and Hercules combined to match Superman.

Right, if it never happened again, it ain't valid *yawn*. Kal-el and Kal-l broke time and space once by punching once and when they punched again not even metropolis was broken. Does that invalidates their previous showing somehow? If we are going to judge two characters we have to take every showing of them in account, not to ignore something that happened once and never again. Cap is a peer of superman when both are holding back but superman is superior when both cut loose.

C.) Even if Cap needs to stack his powers, if we use your line of thought it's apparently something he can do on a whim to match Superman, so what does it matter? Those are his powers.

Superman can also become stronger by dropping a few mental blocks or by stressing as he absorb more sunlight when he stresses. I don't think its good to debate powersets here. Like you said cap has never done it again, why would he do it here?

And based on what is Adam too arrogant to "stack" his powers, assuming that he, like Billy, needs to do so in order to match Superman physically?

Aren't you in the camp that billy and teth are exact equal in every way and its his ferocity that gets teth his edge against marvel. I don't think I have to tell you about Black adam's character traits.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
He didn't yell. 😬

Oh noes, you got me there! Obviously unless its a bold lettered OW, it's not yelling.

I used to have the scans where Superman and Captain Marvel power share and at the end of the story they go into a strong handshake contest to see who is stronger.

Captain Marvel was only at 1/3 of his power and was matching Superman with Freddie and Mary present.

Does anyone have those scans or do I have to hunt them down again?
I doubt it will matter or convince anyone but they were pretty cool

So, lets talk about Adam, since Adam is not Cap.

I'm starting to reconsider whether Superman can take a majority or not.. Mainly because of a fundamental difference between a hero, and their villain..

Anyone here read the manga, or watch the anime, of Fist of the North Star? The protagonist/hero is Kenshiro, and his nemesis is his brother (Not by blood) Raoh. They fight several times, with Raoh seeming to have an advantage in their first meeting, and eventually have their major showdown, where Kenshiro triumphs, and Raoh tells Kenshiro that the reason he became so much stronger than the first time they fought, is because he's constantly overcoming major rivals. While Raoh, he had no major rivals, except for his blood brother Toki, who was dying from an illness through their battles.

Same deal with Black Adam. For all of his supposed years of experience, how much of it is facing down anything close to the amount and quality of threats that Superman or Captain Marvel face all the time? If Cap was able to hold his own with Adam at the start of his career, shouldn't the years he spent with the JLA, JSA, and his own solo adventures make him even more formidable?

So maybe Superman does take a majority, unless someone here knows something about Adam's history that proves he's more than a character with Cap level stats who kills weaker opponents like he did in World War III..

Originally posted by Nietzschean
I used to have the scans where Superman and Captain Marvel power share and at the end of the story they go into a strong handshake contest to see who is stronger.

Captain Marvel was only at 1/3 of his power and was matching Superman with Freddie and Mary present.

Does anyone have those scans or do I have to hunt them down again?
I doubt it will matter or convince anyone but they were pretty cool

I already told you that was when power sharing for marvel family was no longer in effect. What happens when marvel is at 1/3 of his power

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/capsupesarm2b.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/capsupesarm2c.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
It's one of the two times cap has stalemated superman in an armwrestle. One is off-panel and both were likely holding back then. Here marvel was using everything in his power to win that armwrestling and still couldn't. I'm not exactly sure why would we throw a showing away because it never happened again considering its one of the only two times cap has explicitly armwrestled superman. Doesn't people like to think based on those armwrestling cap is exact equal in strength to superman. I don't consider catching punches is any measure of strength otherwise

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/wonderwoman_175_29.jpg

Diana is an equal in strength to an amped superman!!

Marvel was using everything he had and so was Superman. Superman sure as hell didn't beat Marvel just like Marvel didn't beat Superman, hence them drawing or stalemating. I didn't say we throw it away, either. I merely told you why it made literally no sense to me personally and my reasoning is pretty solid.

Not sure why Diana catching a punch from Superman is relevant at all here...?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Right, if it never happened again, it ain't valid *yawn*. Kal-el and Kal-l broke time and space once by punching once and when they punched again not even metropolis was broken. Does that invalidates their previous showing somehow? If we are going to judge two characters we have to take every showing of them in account, not to ignore something that happened once and never again. Cap is a peer of superman when both are holding back but superman is superior when both cut loose.

I didn't say it wasn't valid, but it sure as hell isn't the norm so repeatedly clinging to it like it is makes no sense to me. Kal-El and Kal-L also had context in that little instance (ie. Alex Luthor phucking around with the Multiverse). I'm not ignoring anything here.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman can also become stronger by dropping a few mental blocks or by stressing as he absorb more sunlight when he stresses. I don't think its good to debate powersets here. Like you said cap has never done it again, why would he do it here?

What the hell? You're using the Atlas stacking as a means to discredit Cap drawing Superman in a direct confrontation between strength and in the same breath saying he won't do so again to match Superman? You can't have it both ways. Either Captain Marvel's base physical strength is enough to match Superman's, or Captain Marvel needs to stack/amp/whatever to match Superman (even though that isn't the consistent portrayal). Either way, under his own power, Captain Marvel matches Superman. Attempting to downplay it does you nor Superman any favors.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Aren't you in the camp that billy and teth are exact equal in every way and its his ferocity that gets teth his edge against marvel. I don't think I have to tell you about Black adam's character traits.

No, I'm not. They have almost identical power sets, but completely different personalities and applications of their powers. Teth's ferocity is one edge he holds over Billy, true. No you don't have to tell me about Black Adam because I know what I'm talking about. You, on the other hand, have to to show or tell me why Black Adam wouldn't use his powers to match Superman if he can.

Seriously, we all get you love Superman and try to support him whenever you can. It's admirable. But don't act like Superman repeatedly being stalemated by Captain Marvel or referred to as his equal/peer/direct rival multiple times somehow lessens him. It doesn't. The sooner you just accept that Captain Marvel is portrayed to be on that level the sooner you can get over it.

Originally posted by cdtm
So, lets talk about Adam, since Adam is not Cap.

I'm starting to reconsider whether Superman can take a majority or not.. Mainly because of a fundamental difference between a hero, and their villain..

Anyone here read the manga, or watch the anime, of Fist of the North Star? The protagonist/hero is Kenshiro, and his nemesis is his brother (Not by blood) Raoh. They fight several times, with Raoh seeming to have an advantage in their first meeting, and eventually have their major showdown, where Kenshiro triumphs, and Raoh tells Kenshiro that the reason he became so much stronger than the first time they fought, is because he's constantly overcoming major rivals. While Raoh, he had no major rivals, except for his blood brother Toki, who was dying from an illness through their battles.

Same deal with Black Adam. For all of his supposed years of experience, how much of it is facing down anything close to the amount and quality of threats that Superman or Captain Marvel face all the time? If Cap was able to hold his own with Adam at the start of his career, shouldn't the years he spent with the JLA, JSA, and his own solo adventures make him even more formidable?

So maybe Superman does take a majority, unless someone here knows something about Adam's history that proves he's more than a character with Cap level stats who kills weaker opponents like he did in World War III..

What years of experience? He was sleeping in the amulet of shazam for all his supposed 3000 years of "experienced" life. Considering superman has fought 1000 years in asgard and has actually shown skills in fights unlike adam, I find it hilarious when someone starts to shout"Bu.. but adam has thousands of years of experience".

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who's trying to impress you? Superman was weakened and exhausted and you obviously has no experience with aikido or judo.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/sb-04-18.jpg

He used only one hand catch the punch while using other hand to transfer the momentum and threw marvel away. OMG I'M SO MUCH MORE IMPRESSED WITH MARVEL GETTING THROWN AWAY BY A WEAKENED SUPERMAN!!

Two hands.

That's not what they do in judo... and in Akido the sankyo defense is to grab the wrist of the punch and transfer the momentum. In fact, if this is what you're saying then Superman never stopped the punch at all but only threw Marvel with his own momentum... I can deal with that.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh noes, you got me there! Obviously unless its a bold lettered OW, it's not yelling.

Not sure if you're serious about this or not.

He said "Ow." He expressed mild discomfort just as Superman did with the "NNNGH" and the "HRRGH". The intent of the scene was to show Cap and Superman shaking hands and them applying steadily growing pressure. Again, another display of them being equals...just like Superman himself feels and stated more than once.

The scene ends with Cap saying "Ow" before Superman did. Based off of how the two were played up in that comic, if said scene and script continued there is literally no reason to believe Superman wouldn't have done the same.

Either way, it's not yelling in pain and you know it's not.

Artists are usually pretty bad with that kind of stuff..

The time Superman "judo tossed" Eclipsed Valor into the ground, it looked like he was gripping both hands around Valors hand or wrist.. Only way that would have worked is if Mon El kept his arm rigid.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I already told you that was when power sharing for marvel family was no longer in effect. What happens when marvel is at 1/3 of his power

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/capsupesarm2b.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/capsupesarm2c.jpg

When wasn't it in effect? Can you point me to a comic that specifically undid the power sharing? Because it was established the Power of Shazam can be shared and when multiple recipients of the same source (ie. Shazam's god pantheon or the Egyptians) it becomes weaker due to it being shared. In fact, it's been a plot device and recurring aspect of the Marvel Family ever since Ordway's reboot.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Marvel was using everything he had and so was Superman. Superman sure as hell didn't beat Marvel just like Marvel didn't beat Superman, hence them drawing or stalemating. I didn't say we throw it away, either. I merely told you why it made literally no sense to me personally and my reasoning is pretty solid.

Well according to ending battle, superman was only harnessing a fraction of his powers since he killed those pocket dimension kryptonians, so there's that 😛 . Plus kal wasn't so damn aggressive to win there. My reasoning is pretty solid too

Not sure why Diana catching a punch from Superman is relevant at all here...?

Why not, you are sure POS 46 isn't the norm, well diana caught an amped superman's punch from a bad leverage just like captain marvel. She must be stronger than regular superman, right. What other instance makes you think that marvel is equal to superman in strength?

I didn't say it wasn't valid, but it sure as hell isn't the norm so repeatedly clinging to it like it is makes no sense to me. Kal-El and Kal-L also had context in that little instance (ie. Alex Luthor phucking around with the Multiverse). I'm not ignoring anything here.

Not really, alex was still phucking around with the multiverse when these two battled in Infinite crisis 5 but nothing happened. That's why its so damn annoying when anyone tries to tell me that these two broke reality due to alex tempering with multiverse when it was never mentioned in Adventures of superman 649

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/70950400rk0.jpg

Guess, on-panel statements are ignored for superman.

What the hell? You're using the Atlas stacking as a means to discredit Cap drawing Superman in a direct confrontation between strength and in the same breath saying he won't do so again to match Superman? You can't have it both ways. Either Captain Marvel's base physical strength is enough to match Superman's, or Captain Marvel needs to stack/amp/whatever to match Superman (even though that isn't the consistent portrayal). Either way, under his own power, Captain Marvel matches Superman. Attempting to downplay it does you nor Superman any favors.

Well, its a good thing then that cap isn't in this fight. Who's downplaying anything? I already said that captain marvel is a peer of superman in strength when both are holding back but kal is superior in strength to both cap and adam when he cuts loose.

No, I'm not. They have almost identical power sets, but completely different personalities and applications of their powers. Teth's ferocity is one edge he holds over Billy, true. No you don't have to tell me about Black Adam because I know what I'm talking about. You, on the other hand, have to to show or tell me why Black Adam wouldn't use his powers to match Superman if he can.

Because it's not like how he fights? This is the same as surfer finding superman's weakness in a nanosecond. They don't fight like that

Seriously, we all get you love Superman and try to support him whenever you can. It's admirable. But don't act like Superman repeatedly being stalemated by Captain Marvel or referred to as his equal/peer/direct rival multiple times somehow lessens him. It doesn't. The sooner you just accept that Captain Marvel is portrayed to be on that level the sooner you can get over it.

What gave you the hint 😮 ? Don't act like superman doesn't have the feats to prove that when he cuts loose, he has done things above his tier. I get it that you like marvel family and likes to think that they are exact equal to superman, but the fact remains that DC has made it abundantly clear that superman>all when needs arises. You think it lessens marvel family somehow that they are inferior to superman in any way. It doesn't. The sooner you accept that superman is just that damn good the sooner you can get over it.

On top of any other criteria:

A magic-tainted punch against a Supes that has even a slight weakness to magic would give Adam a slight advantage.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
You.

Two hands.

That's not what they do in judo... and in Akido the sankyo defense is to grab the wrist of the punch and transfer the momentum. In fact, if this is what you're saying then Superman never stopped the punch at all but only threw Marvel with his own momentum... I can deal with that.

You are free to think whatever floats your boat. That doesn't make any difference.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
When wasn't it in effect? Can you point me to a comic that specifically undid the power sharing? Because it was established the Power of Shazam can be shared and when multiple recipients of the same source (ie. Shazam's god pantheon or the Egyptians) it becomes weaker due to it being shared. In fact, it's been a plot device and recurring aspect of the Marvel Family ever since Ordway's reboot.

POS 47 I think.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Well, its a good thing then that cap isn't in this fight. Who's downplaying anything? I already said that captain marvel is a peer of superman in strength when both are holding back but kal is superior in strength to both cap and adam when he cuts loose.

He didn't seem superior when Eclipso had him.

Would Eclipso hold back, or not cut loose?