Originally posted by Terryc250
No Bugenhagen said, once Holy is unleashed it could be the end of EVERYTHING, depending on what it judges.
Then it didn't judge sephy evil?
Holy is = to Meteor,
Thought meteor couldn't destroy a planet only wound it. If holy is equal then it cant either.
and Sephiroth was able to contain Holy with his willpower,
Well good for him, but he still got his arse kicked.
It works unless you can prove it doesn't, you cant just assume "Well Kuja mightve found some kinda item that protects him against that" No that doesn't work in debates.
I did not say that and you dam well know it. By default Kuja WOULD have resistance to attacks like heartless angle, just like sephy would, just like Seymour from FFX would and just like sin would.
How come you didn't get Bahamut Retsu? Or Bahamut SIN? Its because Master Summon gives you the summons in the GAME, not the WORLD, duh.
Or because the summons didn't exist back then, if sephys attack was a summon, it would be apart of the master summon materia. It was not so it is not.
Again, that's only to CLOUD, no one else.
For the last god damn time, YES he did it to cloud and no one else, BUT THAT DON'T MEAN HE WOULDN'T IN FUTURE!!
No unless i see proof that its instant i assume its similar to the way he teleported zidane and co, by casting.
LOL you don't even see him cast it, the light goes from ya feet to ya head in a split second and ya already gone. Furthermore casting it on someone else always tend to take longer then self-teleportation.
1) Lifestream > Ultima
2) I didn't say that, read more proper please, i said [b]if theres not enough evidence that hes powerful, you cannot assume he is (in response to you saying that theres not enough evidence in FFIX)
3) I've seen that video, it seems to be Kujas only impressive feat. but its nothing Sephiroth isnt capable of doing.
YAY, the word lifestream pops up again, this is Sephy and Kuja not the lifestream.
WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE THEY HAVE THIS BATTLE WILL HAVE ANY LIFESTREAM FOR SEPHY TO USE.
CHARACTERS DO NOT LIE IF THERE IS NO PLOT REASONS WHATSOEVER
Lying and misinterpreting are two different things.
Bugenhagen says it can destroy everything, so that means it can.
Now i remember holy beat sephy and we all sat down and had drinks at the beach.
NO, Holy couldn't get past sephy, yes? then it can't destroy everything, yes? SOOOO Bugenhagen was WRONG! Y-E-S!
Ultima wont be destroying anything when Sephiroth TKs Kuja, he wont even beable to cast it.
Like i said, it works on him because there are NO evidence that suggest it DOESN'T, Kuja is NOT fast
Correction there is no in-game reason for him to NEED to be fast, so you don't see it.
Although this is a little weak, Garland dose not need to cast to teleport, since he and Kuja seem to have similar powers LOGICALLY it is sound to assume that Kuja is the same way since he made him.
2) what you just said makes no sense, that's like saying Kuja wont use ultima, or any of his powers for that matter, we don't know for a fact he will.
If we can use gameplay moves in this debate, then Kuja is definately screwed.
Mmmhmmm, says you. Actually ya just reminded me Kuja has demi, that won't kill but can help. Unless he got immunity to that too? Or he could use that to make sephy drop his sword, unless his sword is super glued into place?
Give me evidence that Kuja can counter a speedblitz, and no don't reply saying "Give me evidence that Sephiroth can speedblitz Kuja" Sephiroth can speedblitz anyone even Zack who is capable of dodging machine gun bullets like nothing.
ZZZ, he matrix Sephy speedblitz -_-
Ok, back to seriousness now, I can not give you what don't exist.
Now, give me REAL, HARD evidence sephy can ACTUALLY TK Ultima.
Dun go saying "oh he can tk holy from FFVII so he can tk ultima" cause that's BULL.
Give me evidence that Ultima can break through Sephiroths TK even if Holy isn't able to, and no DON'T reply saying "Well one is white magic and one is black, and Bugenhagen is LYING!" No, white magic is capable of doing the same destruction as black materia, and no.. just no.. bugenhagen isn't lying.
1) I'm past bugen, right or wrong dun matter in this argument.
2) Holy is its own element, Ultima is NON-Elemental which means it CAN NOT be blocked by ANY means. Also your forgetting Flare which is also NON-Elemental, an advantage flare has is that it is NOT a projectile attack.
Your basically saying that a fire and water spells would both work the same against a fire flan AND THEY WON'T, neither will holy and Ultima/Flare.
Elemental weakness and strengths play a pivotal role in all Final Fantasy games.
Give me evidence that Kuja is capable of surviving the lifestream, and don't say "Well Kuja is from another world and hes a sorcerer!" Lifestream works on ANYTHING, from people to giant meteors.
GET OVER THE DAMN LIFESTREAM ALREADY, Sephy vs Kuja dose not = Kuja vs lifestream. This battle would have to take place somewhere neutral to be fair so how can you even say that place has any lifestream to be used.
I do i give reasons, unlike you.
being a "kick ass" move means nothing, Holy is a single target attack? Holy covered the entire continent in a second.
EVERY Final Fantasy game "Holy" has been in it has been the same move with different animations, it has ALWAYS been a single target attack, like it has always been effective against the undead.
Meteor = Big, Holy = Big.
Stop using gameplay from other FF games as examples, Ultima in FF7 is NOTHING compared to meteor or holy
Hmmm, nothing? So it dose not beat the party TWO times? Ultima in Final Fantasy by definition means its IS the ULTIMATE ATTACK (magicly speaking.)
If the planet and not Kuja used Ultima, meteor would be nothing at all. It would of blasted through it like the sister ray through weapon.
Another basic about Final Fantsy, Magic damage is based on the strength of its user.
Whole planet using holy -> Kuja using holy.
even dragons had the attack, every magic varies from game to game, Holy in FF7 can cause planetary destruction as well as Meteor.
Magic is VII is based on what materia you have, you don't actually ever learn it. LOL you think if the whole planet of Gaia used Ultima on a meteor it wouldn't blow it up?
AC Sephiroth is not human at all, he doesnt do it because he "enjoys" it, he wanted to torment CLOUD, just CLOUD, no not Zack, no not Tseng, no not aeris, no not the other people hes killed, JUST CLOUD, and NO NOT KUJA.
AC sephiroth still THINKS like a human, regardless of what he has become, thus human style logic IS applicable.
Zack was weak, Tseng was weak and Aeris was, you guessed it, weak.
You have already said yourself kuja is NOT weak. Who the hell are you to determine what sephys motives would be if they ever locked in battle.
Truth be told, you DON'T know shet, i DON'T know shet and anyone else reading this, again you guessed it, DON'T know shet.
But we both make the best arguments we can anyway.
Originally posted by UltimaKuja
[B]Then it didn't judge sephy evil?
Thought meteor couldn't destroy a planet only wound it. If holy is equal then it cant either.
I did not say that and you dam well know it. By default Kuja WOULD have resistance to attacks like heartless angle, just like sephy would, just like Seymour from FFX would and just like sin would.
Or because the summons didn't exist back then, if sephys attack was a summon, it would be apart of the master summon materia. It was not so it is not.
For the last god damn time, YES he did it to cloud and no one else, BUT THAT DON'T MEAN HE WOULDN'T IN FUTURE!!
LOL you don't even see him cast it, the light goes from ya feet to ya head in a split second and ya already gone. Furthermore casting it on someone else always tend to take longer then self-teleportation.
YAY, the word lifestream pops up again, this is Sephy and Kuja not the lifestream.
WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE THEY HAVE THIS BATTLE WILL HAVE ANY LIFESTREAM FOR SEPHY TO USE.
Lying and misinterpreting are two different things.
Now i remember holy beat sephy and we all sat down and had drinks at the beach.
NO, Holy couldn't get past sephy, yes? then it can't destroy everything, yes? SOOOO Bugenhagen was WRONG! Y-E-S!
Assumptions are the other of screw-ups and that my friend was one big overrated assumption. GET IT PAST YA THICK HEAD, There - is - no, repeat NO, evidence - tk -works -on - Kuja - or -Ultima.
Though i would say it slowly for you.
Sephiroth willpower TK has worked on everything from every member of the FF7 party, Holy, to bringing down buildings, theres no reason it wont work on Kuja or ultima.
Correction there is no in-game reason for him to NEED to be fast, so you don't see it.
Although this is a little weak, Garland dose not need to cast to teleport, since he and Kuja seem to have similar powers LOGICALLY it is sound to assume that Kuja is the same way since he made him.
Garland created Kuja, just because their powers are similar it does NOT mean Kuja's power is identical, hence the word "similar" and not "identical" btw can you show me Garlands instant teleporting?
Now you get it a lil, eh? we don't know and that's the whole frigging problem.]/quote]
You cannot say that kind of crap on debates, thats like saying "well we dont know.. because, character1 might slip and fall, therefore character2 might win" no please refrain yourself from saying junk like that.[quote]
Mmmhmmm, says you. Actually ya just reminded me Kuja has demi, that won't kill but can help. Unless he got immunity to that too? Or he could use that to make sephy drop his sword, unless his sword is super glued into place?
ZZZ, he matrix Sephy speedblitz -_-
Ok, back to seriousness now, I can not give you what don't exist.
Now, give me REAL, HARD evidence sephy can ACTUALLY TK Ultima.
Dun go saying "oh he can tk holy from FFVII so he can tk ultima" cause that's BULL.
1) I'm past bugen, right or wrong dun matter in this argument.
2) Holy is its own element, Ultima is NON-Elemental which means it CAN NOT be blocked by ANY means. Also your forgetting Flare which is also NON-Elemental, an advantage flare has is that it is NOT a projectile attack.
Your basically saying that a fire and water spells would both work the same against a fire flan AND THEY WON'T, neither will holy and Ultima/Flare.
Elemental weakness and strengths play a pivotal role in all Final Fantasy games.
GET OVER THE DAMN LIFESTREAM ALREADY, Sephy vs Kuja dose not = Kuja vs lifestream. This battle would have to take place somewhere neutral to be fair so how can you even say that place has any lifestream to be used.
You easily dismiss my evidence as crap, when your "Evidence" is based on nothing more. "sephy can tk kuja and ultima" wheres ya quote from square on that?
If Sephiroth was able to stop Holy for months, then he sure as hell can stop Ultima in this fight, and no don't say "Well Ultima doesn't have an element" the type of element has NOTHING to do with it.
EVERY Final Fantasy game "Holy" has been in it has been the same move with different animations, it has ALWAYS been a single target attack, like it has always been effective against the undead.
Meteor = Big, Holy = Big.
Magic differs from game to game, understand that, its not all the same.
Hmmm, nothing? So it dose not beat the party TWO times? Ultima in Final Fantasy by definition means its IS the ULTIMATE ATTACK (magicly speaking.)
If the planet and not Kuja used Ultima, meteor would be nothing at all. It would of blasted through it like the sister ray through weapon.
Another basic about Final Fantsy, Magic damage is based on the strength of its user.
Whole planet using holy -> Kuja using holy.
Second of all the black and white materia (holy and meteor) were the ultimate magics of the game, meaning, the most powerful. (BY FAR)
Magic is VII is based on what materia you have, you don't actually ever learn it. LOL you think if the whole planet of Gaia used Ultima on a meteor it wouldn't blow it up?
AC sephiroth still THINKS like a human, regardless of what he has become, thus human style logic IS applicable.
Zack was weak, Tseng was weak and Aeris was, you guessed it, weak.
You have already said yourself kuja is NOT weak. Who the hell are you to determine what sephys motives would be if they ever locked in battle.
Truth be told, you DON'T know shet, i DON'T know shet and anyone else reading this, again you guessed it, DON'T know shet.
But we both make the best arguments we can anyway. [/B]
Originally posted by Terryc250
Yes it did, however it could not get past Sephiroth powerful willpower.
Then like i said sephy>holy = holy CAN'T destroy everything.
Meteor is capable of destroying planets yes, its been stated before its also been stated that Holy can as well, Sephiroth used it however, to create a giant wound in the planet, the population would be eliminated,
OK, ok. chill, meteor wouldn't be in this fight anyway so im not arguing over it.
btw if that meteor hit Terra, Terra would most likely be gone, since its much smaller then Gaia.
I have at no point denied it could.
By default they get resistance to it? Wtf? Says what? You cannot claim baseless things like that.
The whole point is that if they was weak to that in the movie or game it would be over way to easy. Since if this battle was real it would share that simple mechanic, Kuja would be immune. That's why cloud don't go get his spare 'Death' materia and use it on sephiroth.
Summons didn't exist back then? What are you talking about? Those summons are from BEFORE FFVII and After FFVII, they sure as hell existed, Master summon gives you every AVAILABLE summon in the GAME.
Was actually quoting on the fact FFVII came out first and in THAT game they don't exist till a follow up game.
That point aside, like you said it has every summon in the GAME, supernova is in the GAME and dose NOT become usable with master summon.
No offense, but you must be under the age of 14 to be saying that kind of thing in a debate.
I honestly don't even know why i'm debating against you, you should be embarassed by your statements for the last time,
HE HAD A REASON TO DO IT TO CLOUD, NO he does not think its fun and he'll do it again, HE HAD A REASON TO, listen, REASON. Meaning That's WHY HE DID IT, so if he does not have a REASON then HE WONT DO IT, got it?
Sure, i already knew Sephys reason, i got that loud and clear.
"He dose not this its fun", show me dialog from sephy saying those words please.
His arrogant personality is reason enough to me. just like sephy gets new powers in every appearance he makes, his personality will change too. Maybe small, maybe large difference but it will.
Yes i recall him doing somethin similar to ultima, it was not instant teleporting, casting is casting, its not instant.
Ultima and teleporting are TOTALLY different, OMG are you being intentionally dense or what? One is an attack spell the other is a passive ability, usable at will.
Dose Kuja ever say, "I can teeleport you or myself but it takes awhile to do?" NO! So your assuming other wise, when its quite clear in the game its instant.
Are you stupid? Lifestream is Sephiroths weapon/power just as his masamune is, just as the Soul Reaver is Kains weapon/power. Sephiroth can summon it at will, its apart of him.
No , you are saying that Bugenhagen is saying UNTRUE things, theres no plot reason for him to, therefore he didn't. Bugenhagen represents the game developers words to explain how the planet works in FFVII, and the lifestream, and what the Black and white materia is for. Theres always a character like that in just about every game, no they don't say untrue things.
Bugen = 100% correct, hurray for you.
Bugen = <100% correct, hurray for me.
Either way ya look at it, It dose nit affect this particular engagement.
Bugenhagen was referring to the PLANET, if Holy was unleashed it can destroy everything (on the planet), Sephiroth however STOPPED it.
Holy> Everything (including sephy) or Sephy > Holy. You can't have it both ways.
TK works on EVERYTHING, theres no reasons for it to NOT work on anything, That's like saying Kuja's ultima wont work on Sephiroth because well.. hes Sephiroth
Ultima might work as you described, i can accept that since neither of us don't know, why is it so hard for you to accept the same of sephys TK? TK and Ultima have NEVER clashed together, so who are you to determine the outcome based on its previous feats?
Don't forget while sephy was holding holy back he was being constantly supplied with mako energy by Hojo, the same won't be true in this battle.
Sephiroth willpower TK has worked on everything from every member of the FF7 party, Holy, to bringing down buildings, theres no reason it wont work on Kuja or ultima.
Every member of FFVII > Ultima? NO WAY!
Brining down buildings > Ultima? Ummm, nope try again.
Holy > Ultima? Conceivable but i don't share that opinion of yours.
Ultima = Ultimate, Ultimate = (from dictionary.com) "maximum; decisive; conclusive: the ultimate authority; the ultimate weapon."
And, "not to be improved upon or surpassed; greatest; unsurpassed"
Also, " the best, greatest, or most extreme of its kind"
Do you get it yet?
If he never showed any speed feats in-game, then he has ZERO speed feats, meaning you CANNOT prove he can defend against a speedblitz, so Kuja loses on that part.
Garland created Kuja, just because their powers are similar it does NOT mean Kuja's power is identical, hence the word "similar" and not "identical" btw can you show me Garlands instant teleporting?
Like you also said, some things you have to take on "Logic", that is pretty good "Logic" from where im sitting.
Garland Instant teleports are not in any CGI, though he dose it a good 15 times effortlessly. I can no more show you that then you can show sephy Speedblitzing Kuja, since no video exists.
again, stop using gameplay moves, Demi cannot even be compared to heartless angel, pale horse or supernova, his sword might drop fine, then Sephiroths will bring Kuja on the brink of death, and he will die as the planets are exploding.
Again stop being so high and mighty easily dismissing it, either way demi by definition is a gravity attack, Gravity + Big sword = HEAVY, big sword. Heartless angel only takes you to 1hp in KH, NOT FFVII, from what i remember.
What planets exploding? If what ever planet OR location they are on explodes, Sephy dies to. Unless your saying Sephy will pull a DBZ and "weather" the explosion like freiza was?
KH -> sephy = beatable.
KH2 -> Sephy = beatable,
FFVII -> Sephy = beatable,
FF:AC -> sephy = beatable,
From that, what Say's sephy is immortal and capable of such a feat, do tell. If that was the case jenova would never of been stopped and FFVII would cease to exist.
They are similar destruction attacks, That's why it should work, its like saying Zack dodged machine gun fire from a soldier in FF7, so he should beable to dodge machine gun fire from a soldier in FF8.
Apparently you don't understand very well, Flare and Ultima are NOT anything like Holy. That's like saying Curega and holy are the same, as they are both of the holy element.
Ultima + Flare = Non-elemental, unstoppable and unblockable damage, FACT.
Show me sephy TKing Non-elemental energy blasts, or a quote from square.
What does the type of element have to do with being locked in TK? The element has nothing to do with it, again stop using gameplay,
Until you prove other wise, it has everything to do with it. You cant prove TK can contain something NON-Elemental, meaning until you prove it, it can't
you do know gameplay mechanics does not count for ANYTHING in KMC debates right?
You do know stuff you read in Fan-Fic's dose not count for anything right? Cause That's what your trying to use, "I say it so That's how it works".
example, Fire in FFVIII gameplay looks like its not projectile, and it just appeared at the enemy, however, in the actual cinematic intro you can clearly see it was a projectile shot.
This at very best would have comparisons from FFVII and FFIX, FFVIII is not apart of this at all. If you cant make an argument from the information on AC and IX, which is what this is about then don't.
Who said i had a quote from square on that?
wow.. debating against slowminded-kids gets frustrating,
there is NO way Kuja can protect himself from Sephiroths TK, can you give me evidence he can? NO
Sephy using tk on other ppl from the FFVII universe dose not mean its totally all powerful and has no weakness or vulnerabilities.
Allso you didn't see how Kuja stopped (cleyra's?) protective sand barrier, but we all still know he was the one to do it.
Trance Kuja >>> Sephiroth, plain and simple.
Originally posted by Terryc250
No every HOLY is different, just as ultima is, Ultima in FF7 couldnt even be compared to lots of the summons, and is NOTHING compared to Holy or Meteor.
Already addressed that in my previous post, try not to miss it.
Magic differs from game to game, understand that, its not all the same.
My respect for your I.Q level is slowly diminishing HOLY is ALWAYS the same. it is ALWAYS holy elemental, it is ALWAYS effective against the undead and is ALWAYS a single target attack.
The only change is the animation.
Second of all the black and white materia (holy and meteor) were the ultimate magics of the game, meaning, the most powerful. (BY FAR)
Well the same be true for ultima in FFIX, again previous post has it all.
Motives have nothing to do with this debate, it was never stated by the thread creator thus cannot be randomly applied,
Zack is definately not weak, taking on an army by himself, dodging bullets like nothing,
Kuja gets speedblitz'd, TK'd to death, or disintegrated by the lifestream. [/B]
Sephiroth get pounded into the ground like alexandria by the invincible (which kuja has control of), Bashed in to a building by his silver dragon and disintegrated by ultima.
You get your way of how this goes, so i get mine.
Originally posted by UltimaKuja
[B]Then like i said sephy>holy = holy CAN'T destroy everything.
I have at no point denied it could.
The whole point is that if they was weak to that in the movie or game it would be over way to easy. Since if this battle was real it would share that simple mechanic, Kuja would be immune. That's why cloud don't go get his spare 'Death' materia and use it on sephiroth.
Was actually quoting on the fact FFVII came out first and in THAT game they don't exist till a follow up game.
That point aside, like you said it has every summon in the GAME, supernova is in the GAME and dose NOT become usable with master summon.
Because i don't roll over in defeat at your little post im 14? Yes, i am a Kuja fan-girl, and its my responsibility to do whatever i can do defend Kuja from a sephy fanboy in this debate. ESPECIALLY one that has a hard time even listening to what im saying and ignoring it.
Sure, i already knew Sephys reason, i got that loud and clear.
"He dose not this its fun", show me dialog from sephy saying those words please.
His arrogant personality is reason enough to me. just like sephy gets new powers in every appearance he makes, his personality will change too. Maybe small, maybe large difference but it will.
Ultima and teleporting are TOTALLY different, OMG are you being intentionally dense or what? One is an attack spell the other is a passive ability, usable at will.
Dose Kuja ever say, "I can teeleport you or myself but it takes awhile to do?" NO! So your assuming other wise, when its quite clear in the game its instant.
To bad he didn't use it in AC then, ain't it. You really think he would resort to using the lifestream on ONE person? He was gonna use it on the whole planet, yes.
But you really think he would use it on a single individual? He IS arrogant and would think its beneath him.
Furthermore, he has never used it before, on an individual or party, so don't go claiming he would now.
Bugen = 100% correct, hurray for you.
Bugen = <100% correct, hurray for me.
Either way ya look at it, It dose nit affect this particular engagement.
Holy> Everything (including sephy) or Sephy > Holy. You can't have it both ways.
Ultima might work as you described, i can accept that since neither of us don't know, why is it so hard for you to accept the same of sephys TK? TK and Ultima have NEVER clashed together, so who are you to determine the outcome based on its previous feats?
Don't forget while sephy was holding holy back he was being constantly supplied with mako energy by Hojo, the same won't be true in this battle.
And I don't know what your talking about with Hojo supplying Mako to Sephiroth, but its wrong, Sephiroth held it back with his own sheer willpower.
Every member of FFVII > Ultima? NO WAY!
Brining down buildings > Ultima? Ummm, nope try again.
Holy > Ultima? Conceivable but i don't share that opinion of yours.
Ultima = Ultimate, Ultimate = (from dictionary.com) "maximum; decisive; conclusive: the ultimate authority; the ultimate weapon."
And, "not to be improved upon or surpassed; greatest; unsurpassed"
Also, " the best, greatest, or most extreme of its kind"
Do you get it yet?
Where did i state that every member is > Ultima?
You betray yourself again, tifa = human and needs to eat, yet we don't see her eat, dose that mean she don't? YOU said that your self, don't go backing down on me now.
Like you also said, some things you have to take on "Logic", that is pretty good "Logic" from where im sitting.
Garland Instant teleports are not in any CGI, though he dose it a good 15 times effortlessly. I can no more show you that then you can show sephy Speedblitzing Kuja, since no video exists.
Again stop being so high and mighty easily dismissing it, either way demi by definition is a gravity attack, Gravity + Big sword = HEAVY, big sword. Heartless angel only takes you to 1hp in KH, NOT FFVII, from what i remember.
What planets exploding? If what ever planet OR location they are on explodes, Sephy dies to. Unless your saying Sephy will pull a DBZ and "weather" the explosion like freiza was?
KH -> sephy = beatable.
KH2 -> Sephy = beatable,
FFVII -> Sephy = beatable,
FF:AC -> sephy = beatable,
From that, what Say's sephy is immortal and capable of such a feat, do tell. If that was the case jenova would never of been stopped and FFVII would cease to exist.
Apparently you don't understand very well, Flare and Ultima are NOT anything like Holy. That's like saying Curega and holy are the same, as they are both of the holy element.
Ultima + Flare = Non-elemental, unstoppable and unblockable damage, FACT.
Show me sephy TKing Non-elemental energy blasts, or a quote from square.
Until you prove other wise, it has everything to do with it. You cant prove TK can contain something NON-Elemental, meaning until you prove it, it can't
You do know stuff you read in Fan-Fic's dose not count for anything right? Cause That's what your trying to use, "I say it so That's how it works".
This at very best would have comparisons from FFVII and FFIX, FFVIII is not apart of this at all. If you cant make an argument from the information on AC and IX, which is what this is about then don't.
Well the way you say things, it sure made me think you did.
But i guess That's what your best at, making ppl think this its an official source so they shut up.
wow debating against old farts who can't tell when there beaten gets quite dull.
Sephy using tk on other ppl from the FFVII universe dose not mean its totally all powerful and has no weakness or vulnerabilities.
Allso you didn't see how Kuja stopped (cleyra's?) protective sand barrier, but we all still know he was the one to do it.
Trance Kuja >>> Sephiroth, plain and simple.
Originally posted by UltimaKuja
[B]Already addressed that in my previous post, try not to miss it.My respect for your I.Q level is slowly diminishing HOLY is ALWAYS the same. it is ALWAYS holy elemental, it is ALWAYS effective against the undead and is ALWAYS a single target attack.
The only change is the animation.
Who Kuja and sephy are and what they think, fell and plan to do can't be decided by the thread creator either. Its who they are.
He did all that in a sequel to FFVII, if he couldn't do them things he never would of made it to the FFVII time line. But either way ya look at it he got owned by weakest ever sephy.
Sephiroth get pounded into the ground like alexandria by the invincible (which kuja has control of), Bashed in to a building by his silver dragon and disintegrated by ultima.
You get your way of how this goes, so i get mine.
Originally posted by Terryc250
[B]It can destroy everything on the planet if not stopped, however, Sephiroth is capable of stoping it.
Sephy stopping it = it can NOT destroy everything
Which means Meteor =/> Ultima, so Meteor = Holy, which means Holy =/> Ultima, therefore, Sephiroths TK can stop Ultima.
You wanna compare a massive hunk of a rock to ultima?
The spell 'Meteor' draws an actual meteor to the planet causing it to collide, the actual spell dose nothing but push the meteor in the right direction.
The spell 'Ultima' is an energy attack created by the caster and launches its self at its target and is self homing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but is that not A>B>C logic?
I said AVAILABLE summon, supernova is only available to Sephiroth no one else, there's no way of getting it in the game, Master summon gives you every AVAILABLE summon in the GAME, not world.
No because you don't know how to properly debate.
Correction: Based on the limited facts about Kuja from FFIX and Square i am forced to debate as best i can, including stating alternative way this battle could end.
Unlike Sephy who you would find it hard NOT to find any stuff about. Talk about a handicap.
First of all he does not have an "arrogant" personality, if he toyed around with Cloud for fun, THEN he could be called arrogant, but he didn't, he had his reasons to torment him
Can you not read? I said he casted something SIMILAR to Ultima which made the party teleport, do you know what similar means?
I'm not "assuming" I'm basing it because the only thing ive seen isKuja teleporting party members because you refused to show me a video of him teleporting,
KMC Battles are each character fighting all out UNLESS stated otherwise, meaning they will be using all of their attacks
Bugenhagen IS 100% correct.
Fine, i really couldn't care less. I concede to that.
Holy is not > Everything, Holy can destroy the planet yes.
Bugen said holy could possibly.
Mikito said utima did.
I'm pretty sure a 2nd char said ultima did too, armand i think.
Unless there's "a plot reason" for them to lie here which there isn't.
Ultima will work as i described unless there is evidence that it wouldn't,
TK works on EVERYTHING.
Swapping worlds doesn't make a difference, Just like how Zack can dodge bullets in FFVII world, he should beable to dodge bullets in FFVIII world.
And I don't know what your talking about with Hojo supplying Mako to Sephiroth, but its wrong, Sephiroth held it back with his own sheer willpower.
No, but the statement that shes a human means she needs to eat, if it was stated that she was an alien, and we never see her eat, then its possible that she doesn't need to eat.
Again, show me; and just because they have similar powers doesn't mean they are identical, for example if i had a son, he grew up with similar talents as me, it does not mean he will have identical talents as me.
Sephiroth can use Supernova, and blow up planets and it does NOT harm Sephiroth because summons NEVER can harm the caster,
and YES Heartless Angel brings you to 1hp in EVERY game, KH, KH2, FF7
No one ever said Sephiroth is immortal don't know where you heard that from, but in terms of feats and abilities, Sephiroth is more likely to beat Kuja.
I can accept the fact sephiroth CAN win, i never said he did not have a chance. Don't misunderstand that.
But now you have accepted kuja has a chance, consider this....
I beat one of the final boss' in FFT Advance with the last attack i was gonna get before dying and it only had a 3% chance of success, but it worked and i won.
The point being even though FFTA ain't relevant to this, the smallest chance of victory counts.
AGAIN, what does the element have to do with ANYTHING? It can be Fire, it can be water, it can be a non-elemental piece of brick, TK stops EVERYTHING that is matter.
All things including people are made from the elements, Ultima is NOT. If its not of the elements it can not be stopped.
Ultima is also NOT matter, it is energy. Pure concentrated, non-elemental energy that can pass through anything.
Non-Elemental means you cannot be RESISTANT against it, it CAN however be blocked, evidence is that barrier can reduce the damage,
TK has nothing to do with what the element is, TK is basically an extremely strong barrier around the force.
Against an elemental attack that would be true, but dose not count against non-elemental attacks, they would hit there target.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Wow... just wow... have u even played any other FF games besides IX?
FFI, FFII, FFIII, FFIV, FFV, FFVI, FFVII, FFIX, FFX, FFX-2, Tactics advance, Tactics: war of the lions and Crystal Conicals.
Meteor in FF6, not too powerful, attacks 1 enemy. Meteor in FF7, destroys planets, diminishes populations.
Holy in most FF's attacks enemies, heals party, Holy in FF7 capable of erasing everything on the planet ( and no, the planet did not summon holy, planets can not use materia rofl)
Sephiroth in his weakend form was still not one to mess with.
Lifestream > Alexandia
Monsters are nothing to even the weakest form of Sephiroth
Sephiroths TK > Kuja and Ultima
Checkmate.
Be in denial all you want, but you probably even know by now that Sephiroth > Kuja.
I know "Sephiroth > Kuja" is a possibility.
I also know Kuja > sephiroth is a possibility.
Originally posted by UltimaKuja
Sephy stopping it = it can NOT destroy everything
You wanna compare a massive hunk of a rock to ultima?
The spell 'Meteor' draws an actual meteor to the planet causing it to collide, the actual spell dose nothing but push the meteor in the right direction.
The spell 'Ultima' is an energy attack created by the caster and launches its self at its target and is self homing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but is that not A>B>C logic?
Fine, w/e you say. Square should of clearly stated for ppl like you.... 'No actual planets are destroyed during this summon'.
Correction: Based on the limited facts about Kuja from FFIX and Square i am forced to debate as best i can, including stating alternative way this battle could end.
Unlike Sephy who you would find it hard NOT to find any stuff about. Talk about a handicap.
He is not arrogant? He dose not claim himself the leader of the planet? He dose not think he can't lose? He dose not claim himself a god?
Things that are similar work the same way now?
Party teleporting and self teleporting work the same way do they?
Be honest, have you even fully completed or even started FFIX?
I refused to show you something i don't have? How dose that work again?
Then i suggest you make a more specific thread of this battle, including;
Location,
Powers available,
Type of battle (I.E death match),
Where they start,
General other rules.
Ima say that since we don't see holy actually destroy the planet, just a much smaller meteor. Its basically the same point you make for Ultima not destroying a planet.
Bugen said holy could possibly.
Mikito said utima did.
I'm pretty sure a 2nd char said ultima did too, armand i think.
Unless there's "a plot reason" for them to lie here which there isn't.
There's that "i said so, so that's how it works" attitude again.
[qutoe]
Everything currently used on, yes.
Ultima which it has NEVER been attempted on, PROVE IT.[/quote]
Ultima and Holy are at the same level of destruction power, if Sephiroth can hold Holy, there isn't any reason he shouldn't beable to hold Ultima, also another thing you should keep in mind is that when he did the destroying the surface of Terra feat, Kuja had to unleash multiple ultima blasts, Sephiroth with just a STARE has him locked before he can even shoot more then 2 of his blasts.
I dont see how its quite the same with sephy and kuja.
J-cell/Mako infused zack dodging bullets is a small feat for him, sephy stopping ultima is not.
In the game when you confront Hojo he says something similar to "yes, yes, have all the mako energy you want my son", its because of this that cloud and co fight him, to stop him.
Unless this "alien" is some kind of machine, it would have to be biological, biological beings HAVE to eat.
1) Biological offspring and a genome are totally different.
2) Talents and magical abilities bestowed are totally different.
3) Magical abilities don't change with who uses them, they remain constant.
Directly no, as a result of the aftermath of the explosion sephy would die.
Actually in KH it kills you unless you have an ability to retain 1HP even after a critical hit.
Prove in FF in non-gameplay it would work. If it did why didn't sephiroth use it on cloud then torment him?
And again GAMEPLAY is not allowed in debates, because you CANT prove how it works non-gameplay, just like you cant say "oo well flare looks like it appears out of no where, so it must just come out of no where in non-gameplay" No you cant say that its not real evidence, example fire in FFVIII looks like it appears out of no where as well, but in the intro you clearly see it being shot projectile.
I can accept the fact sephiroth CAN win, i never said he did not have a chance. Don't misunderstand that.But now you have accepted kuja has a chance, consider this....
I beat one of the final boss' in FFT Advance with the last attack i was gonna get before dying and it only had a 3% chance of success, but it worked and i won.
The point being even though FFTA ain't relevant to this, the smallest chance of victory counts.
All things including people are made from the elements, Ultima is NOT. If its not of the elements it can not be stopped.
Ultima is also NOT matter, it is energy. Pure concentrated, non-elemental energy that can pass through anything.
The damage you receive in game play (which i though was not relevant?) is determined by resistance.
Barrier raises resistance, even if was to a point where you maxed the stats Ultima would still hit.
Against an elemental attack that would be true, but dose not count against non-elemental attacks, they would hit there target. [/B]
Originally posted by UltimaKuja
FFI, FFII, FFIII, FFIV, FFV, FFVI, FFVII, FFIX, FFX, FFX-2, Tactics advance, Tactics: war of the lions and Crystal Conicals.
When did we start discussing meteor again? Who cares? I already knew that fact, but we are only interested in holy ATM.
1) Holy is always an offensive white magic spell. Yes or No?
2) Holy ALWAYS dose more damage to undead targets. Yes or No?
3) In VII the attack mechanics of holy have NOT changed, it is summoned and attacks a single target, Meteor. Yes or No?
4) Holy killed no-one nor destroyed anything cept meteor. Yes or NO?
To the average person, fiend or machine, totally true.
Do you plan to start saying he could own Kuja in this form as well?
So by that your saying the invincible would have no effect on sephy?
Your saying is if the dragon caught him off guard while he was being attacked by the invincible it would do nothing to him?
TK Ultima? in your dreams.
I know "Sephiroth > Kuja" is more likely.
but Kuja > sephiroth is a possibility.