John McClane versus Indiana Jones

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
crylaugh Indy didnt take the Jet out, he was hanging on for dear life crylaugh I DO love it when you reach, though. crylaugh

Originally posted by Robtard
Hahaha, no, nice attempt to mis-represent me, though. I wasn't ignoring the usefulness of versatility, merely stating that simplicity can be just as effective, because McClane usually fights in the fashion, but by no means saying he isn't capable of doing more, as seen in the films.

Durability? McClane's never been knocked out and he doesn't complain from the punishment as Indy does, having women kiss him on the 'boo-boos', McClane shrugs it off and keeps on going. Also, did you purposely skip the part where I said MClane shot through himself to kill the [main] villain behind him? This of course was after he was already shot. Yeah, that's durability and epic damage-sponge.

Then there's the two scenes where Indy, despite his previous durability feats, gets consistently knocked on his ass my an aged mechanic and a fat Indian zealot.

It doesn't matter what you think they are, it's what they did on screen and those Nazis and Soviets didn't do anything special beyond garden variety soldiering, for the most part.

Hamster-boy was far more agile and faster than those midgets, he jumped from building to building, jumped to evade being run over by a speeding McClane driven cruiser, jumped out of a exploding helicopter and was nothing more than a squirrel on crack in the cooler-room scene. Those midgets have nothing on him, he was also armed with machine guns/guns.

Ninja-girl's moves were far more impressive than those Asian's in the Obi-Wan. Not even a comparison. They were comical, she was lethal.

While it is admittadly bad-ass and tough as nails to shoot threw yourself to hit the bad guy. All the bumps, bruises, scars, gun shots etc they have both taken don't even begin to compare to the impact force, energy, and pressure of the three major Indy durability/toughness feats. Until McClane rides out a nuke, takes a tank wrecking cliff dive, or submerges with a sub or does something some how comparable. THeir is nor evidence that that he has Indy's toughness end of story. Also lets be honest their a good chance Indy was nursing his so called boo-boo to get some from Marion. I mean why not play it for all it was worth. 🙂 As for Indy getting seriously knocked his ass. Well so did McClane and while Indy got knocked on his ass by a 6ft+ probably well over 200 pound, brick of a boxer and soldier. McClane got handed his ass by a petit woman throwing judo chops.

Jokes aside, both assailents proved themselves to be tough and appeared to have martial training. The German took bludgeons to the head and reapeted shots from Indy. Who had been previously shown to KO 2 men with a single hit and "Ninja chick" got hit by an SUV, though she may have jumped on the hood at the last minute. So what does it all mean. Well it means that both of them can be knocked on their keesters by the right opponent(s). This doesn't however somehow magically negate Indy's other feats.

So your going to go down the. They didn't do anything impressive road road for Indy's villians, but not use the same logic on McClane's I see. If one looks only at their onscreen ability those super-cool spec ops guys McClane has faced. For the most part didn't do anything more then the so called garden variety soldiers Indy fought. With the exception of big bads, named villians, and plot points. Most the enemies they both faced seemed to be of the cannon fodder variety. Well at least against guys of Indy and McClane caliber. Of course thats the problem with judging opponents some times in VS debates. A lot of heros make spec ops guys look like a bunch of 6th graders playing paint ball. Again lets not down play the abilities of the graveyard defenders they pulled off some crazy moves, their were two of them, they were on home terrain, and again made better use of stealth.

Originally posted by Nightstick
Truth is i'd have to go back and re-watch it.

Lets be honest the F-35 wasn't doing much more then hovering stationary and and firing away at McClane. So they were both in motor vehicles evading slow moving air craft unloading mostly machine guns at them. Again I have to speak to the incompetence of the F-35 pilot. The same came not be said at least to the same extent for the pilots and tank crew Indy faced. Of course it also importent to note that McClane vehicle was tougher then Indy's. Frankly trying to down play either of these mens ability to use their enviroment to their advantage is just silly. This is definatly one area where they are close

Interestingly enough while I don't fully agree with you i'd say the fire hydrent scene speaks better to McClane's ability then the truck vs jet scene. As his intent in the hydrent scene is far more obvious then in the jet scene where it may have been luck.

Luck is still a real, useable factor though.

Hovering is what it needed to do right then, but be it a silly pilot or not, he would be reasonable in thinking that against regular opponents hovering and spraying lead would be enough.

But this was Mcclane. (Who might I add who have NOT wanting to kill the pilot, essentially being on the same side.)
Reminscent of DH1's rooftop reaction to being shot. Did he shoot back at the FBI guys..? No, he just tried to lose them.
"Im on YOUR side, you assholes!" etc

I would speak then of the incompetance of the tank crew, allowing a man on a horse, a man who would soon be in prime room for being shot and crushed against a trench wall, to live and kill them.

Im sure that youve just forgotten all this though, as you honourably admit that you havent seen it for a bit.

Originally posted by Nightstick
While it is admittadly bad-ass and tough as nails to shoot threw yourself to hit the bad guy. All the bumps, bruises, scars, gun shots etc they have both taken don't even begin to compare to the impact force, energy, and pressure of the three major Indy durability/toughness feats. Until McClane rides out a nuke, takes a tank wrecking cliff dive, or submerges with a sub or does something some how comparable. THeir is nor evidence that that he has Indy's toughness end of story. Also lets be honest their a good chance Indy was nursing his so called boo-boo to get some from Marion. I mean why not play it for all it was worth. 🙂 As for Indy getting seriously knocked his ass. Well so did McClane and while Indy got knocked on his ass by a 6ft+ probably well over 200 pound, brick of a boxer and soldier. McClane got handed his ass by a petit woman throwing judo chops.

Jokes aside, both assailents proved themselves to be tough and appeared to have martial training. The German took bludgeons to the head and reapeted shots from Indy. Who had been previously shown to KO 2 men with a single hit and "Ninja chick" got hit by an SUV, though she may have jumped on the hood at the last minute. So what does it all mean. Well it means that both of them can be knocked on their keesters by the right opponent(s). This doesn't however somehow magically negate Indy's other feats.

So your going to go down the. They didn't do anything impressive road road for Indy's villians, but not use the same logic on McClane's I see. If one looks only at their onscreen ability those super-cool spec ops guys McClane has faced. For the most part didn't do anything more then the so called garden variety soldiers Indy fought. With the exception of big bads, named villians, and plot points. Most the enemies they both faced seemed to be of the cannon fodder variety. Well at least against guys of Indy and McClane caliber. Of course thats the problem with judging opponents some times in VS debates. A lot of heros make spec ops guys look like a bunch of 6th graders playing paint ball. Again lets not down play the abilities of the graveyard defenders they pulled off some crazy moves, their were two of them, they were on home terrain, and again made better use of stealth.

Indy also proved that Earth's weak gravity force could render Indy it's b*tch very easily without hard shots having to be absorbed.

And regardless of the boxer's size, If Indy's KO power is as you guys (or at least RJ) would rate, he could have put the boxer away.
But he couldnt cause his chin was nearer McClane strength and could only be destroyed by propellors rotating through it.

Ninja chick used more than simple 'Judo chops' The fast snapping front kicks were her main currency and bag, as far as as I can remember.

Originally posted by Nightstick
While it is admittadly bad-ass and tough as nails to shoot threw yourself to hit the bad guy. All the bumps, bruises, scars, gun shots etc they have both taken don't even begin to compare to the impact force, energy, and pressure of the three major Indy durability/toughness feats. Until McClane rides out a nuke, takes a tank wrecking cliff dive, or submerges with a sub or does something some how comparable. THeir is nor evidence that that he has Indy's toughness end of story. Also lets be honest their a good chance Indy was nursing his so called boo-boo to get some from Marion. I mean why not play it for all it was worth. 🙂 As for Indy getting seriously knocked his ass. Well so did McClane and while Indy got knocked on his ass by a 6ft+ probably well over 200 pound, brick of a boxer and soldier. McClane got handed his ass by a petit woman throwing judo chops.

Jokes aside, both assailents proved themselves to be tough and appeared to have martial training. The German took bludgeons to the head and reapeted shots from Indy. Who had been previously shown to KO 2 men with a single hit and "Ninja chick" got hit by an SUV, though she may have jumped on the hood at the last minute. So what does it all mean. Well it means that both of them can be knocked on their keesters by the right opponent(s). This doesn't however somehow magically negate Indy's other feats.

So your going to go down the. They didn't do anything impressive road road for Indy's villians, but not use the same logic on McClane's I see. If one looks only at their onscreen ability those super-cool spec ops guys McClane has faced. For the most part didn't do anything more then the so called garden variety soldiers Indy fought. With the exception of big bads, named villians, and plot points. Most the enemies they both faced seemed to be of the cannon fodder variety. Well at least against guys of Indy and McClane caliber. Of course thats the problem with judging opponents some times in VS debates. A lot of heros make spec ops guys look like a bunch of 6th graders playing paint ball. Again lets not down play the abilities of the graveyard defenders they pulled off some crazy moves, their were two of them, they were on home terrain, and again made better use of stealth.

While I admit the fridge scene is beyond amazing at face value and you claiming McClane won't be able to hurt him because of it may seem reasonable, it really isn't, unless you can explain why Indy was bruised, cut and knocked out through all four films by far less? If he escaped the fridge unharmed because he's a virtual rock, then every other subsequent fight should have been a cake-walk for Indy's [supposed] nigh-invulnerability. McClane doesn't suffer from this, his high durability is on the level throughout the films. (Also of note, jet pilots and speed-racers take higher Gs in real life, than that flying fridge, the bumping is impressive though.)

Ah, while the ninja-girl was far smaller than that German or Indian, McClane was able to KO her and had her at his mercy, while Indy was saved both times by luck, the propeller and that roller thing. Comparing the fights as equal here is silly.

Actually no, Ive stated examples of how McClanes opponents are of a higher caliber and performed so on-screen. Hamster-boy, ninja-girl, Col. Stuart. The weapons used against McClane vs the weapons used against Indy. The F-35 vs Messerschmidt. The helicopter sporting two machine-gun men. You just ignore these facts.

In short, claiming Indy faces harder opponents/weapons or claiming this aspect is comparable, is just laughable. So do stop it. This is clearly a point to McClane.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Indy also proved that Earth's weak gravity force could render Indy it's b*tch very easily without hard shots having to be absorbed.

And regardless of the boxer's size, If Indy's KO power is as you guys (or at least RJ) would rate, he could have put the boxer away.
But he couldnt cause his chin was nearer McClane strength and could only be destroyed by propellors rotating through it.

Ninja chick used more than simple 'Judo chops' The fast snapping front kicks were her main currency and bag, as far as as I can remember.

When you talk about Indy having trouble standing are you refering to "Crystal Skull" where he road a test rocket at unknown, but obvoisly high speed. With no cushion, no harness, no help absorbing the g-force like actualy pilots get. The same ride that knocked unconciouss the larger, younger, Russian soldier that actually rode it out on the chair. If that your argument for "Gravity" beating Indy you might want to look into such amazing concepts as g-force and pressure. Just a thought.

No Indy's in ability to knock out the boxer doesn't speak for Indy's lack of hitting power which he displays in spades(knock out 2 guys in one hit, sending a Thuggee spraling backward like ten feet). It speaks to the boxers toughness.

"Judo chops" was not meant to be entirely literal. It was more a statment on her fighting style in general and in some senses a joke. She like the mechanic proved herself to be a tough competent fighter.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Luck is still a real, useable factor though.

Hovering is what it needed to do right then, but be it a silly pilot or not, he would be reasonable in thinking that against regular opponents hovering and spraying lead would be enough.

But this was Mcclane. (Who might I add who have NOT wanting to kill the pilot, essentially being on the same side.)
Reminscent of DH1's rooftop reaction to being shot. Did he shoot back at the FBI guys..? No, he just tried to lose them.
"Im on YOUR side, you assholes!" etc

I would speak then of the incompetance of the tank crew, allowing a man on a horse, a man who would soon be in prime room for being shot and crushed against a trench wall, to live and kill them.

Im sure that youve just forgotten all this though, as you honourably admit that you havent seen it for a bit.

Luck is a usable factor, but it fair to say they both have luck coming out their ears.

Ask any pilot or any body who knows anything about air combat. The way that pilot operated damn near ruined the film for the more militarily minded members of the audience. He more or less sat their and made himself a target and didn't take time to aim.

Was the tank crew the most competent. No. More then the pilot, i'd say so.

Originally posted by Robtard
While I admit the fridge scene is beyond amazing at face value and you claiming McClane won't be able to hurt him because of it may seem reasonable, it really isn't, unless you can explain why Indy was bruised, cut and knocked out through all four films by far less? If he escaped the fridge unharmed because he's a virtual rock, then every other subsequent fight should have been a cake-walk for Indy's [supposed] nigh-invulnerability. McClane doesn't suffer from this, his high durability is on the level throughout the films. (Also of note, jet pilots and speed-racers take higher Gs in real life, than that flying fridge, the bumping is impressive though.)

Again. I dont remember Indy being truly knocked out, but maybe I am wrong. As for getting beat up, sure. He like McClane is still flesh and bone.

The problem is you are more or less. Intentional or not. Asking that we simply ignore what we have seen Indy do, not once but 3 times we have seen his durabilty get into the patently super human range. Far in excess of anything we have seen McClane muster.

However even if we induldge you, The more conventional damage Indy takes. Puts him right up their with McClane.

To a point made earlier about Indy camplaining more then McClane or showing pain more. McClane spends most of his movies in noticable pain and b*tching. It most evident in the first DH though.

Originally posted by Robtard

Ah, while the ninja-girl was far smaller than that German or Indian, McClane was able to KO her and had her at his mercy, while Indy was saved both times by luck, the propeller and that roller thing. Comparing the fights as equal here is silly.

McClane only had her at his mercy, because she had a job to do. Had she pressed her orginal advantage that fight would have turned out much differently. Also Indy had the Thuggee on the ropes for half the fight. Until the Prince kid started using the Voodoo doll. Not to mention he fought the martial artist in the Obi-Wan while drugged and still won.

Originally posted by Robtard

Actually no, Ive stated examples of how McClanes opponents are of a higher caliber and performed so on-screen. Hamster-boy, ninja-girl, Col. Stuart. The weapons used against McClane vs the weapons used against Indy. The F-35 vs Messerschmidt. The helicopter sporting two machine-gun men. You just ignore these facts.

You've proven no such thing. I shown a comparable advisary or situation. For everything you have brought to the table. They may not be perfectly even across the board, but they are at the very least comparable

Originally posted by Robtard

In short, claiming Indy faces harder opponents/weapons or claiming this aspect is comparable, is just laughable. So do stop it. This is clearly a point to McClane.

I don't see it as so cut and dry. Both of them have pulled some amazing stunts. This point is not easily anybody's.

What we do know for certain though is that Indy has durability. For all your attempts you have shown nothing from McClane that compares to the fridge, cliff, or sub and whether you like it or not they count for Indy's durability.

Lets for the sake of argument break it down this way(note this is purely an exercise, not my actually oppinion on the matter)

Stregnth-Probable more or less even both are fit athletic men.

Fighting ability-Probable about even. Both are proven in combat.

Durability-Indy(Fridge, cliff, sub).

Creativity-McClane "harder opponents with similiar equipment"(being the basic argument for him).

Luck-heck lets hand it to McClane for this exercise.

Agility/dexterity-Indy, I think this one is fairly obvious.

So even if I hand you the 2 areas you are fighting the hardest for and the only 2 you've made any real arguments in. They are still more or less breaking even. Heck even if we give John another hand out in the form of fighting ability. Jones's superior reaction time should make up the difference. While It is my oppinion that Indy wins(and holds the advantage in fighting ability and is tied for creativity and luck). This is one of the closest fight on the board.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
A nice but inherantly flawed post. The opening and closing lines are its weakness as
noone has been talking exclusively about kotcs feat only and Insy has a way more suspect chin..

RJ wanted them recognised, which is fair enough.
Along with that comes the frailty.

I think you are overrating Indy's Hearns-like chin.
Fact is Indy bangs fairly hard, doing well against mediocre opposition, but faced with a tough opponent, -Pat Roach usually- he gets his ass destroyed because he cant take shots as well as McClane.

McClanes age, chin, experience at fighting more advanced opponents than Indy got a chance to fight, jamminess and creativity on the battlefield, his various forms of training that wasnt about in Jone's day are all serious advantages for McClane.

Did ya miss the whole fridge, cliff, sub conversation. Nothing, no lumps McClane has taken even compare. Indy can take hit at just shy of 60 that would have ended DH 1 McClane or any McClane for that matter.

What do you mean more advanced opponents? Just what forms of fighting does McClane have experience with that Indy doesn't? Truth is given Indy's traveling he is probably far more familiar with a variety of fighting styles then McClane. The only thing I can think of(for McClane) is hamster boys modified parkour and that's not really a fighting form and not all that different from some of the things Indy has seen.

I'd say McClane is the better fighter when he's not kidding around. Watch LFODH when that guy comes up behind him. He simply backs up, headbuts him, takes his weapon, and shoots him in the toes. Pretty Badass for someone who's in his early 50's. Can't see Indy doing that.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I'd say McClane is the better fighter when he's not kidding around. Watch LFODH when that guy comes up behind him. He simply backs up, headbuts him, takes his weapon, and shoots him in the toes. Pretty Badass for someone who's in his early 50's. Can't see Indy doing that.

I can see it being presented as a comedic approach to things. I though we were being serious. 😬

Lets for the sake of argument break it down this way(note this is purely an exercise, not my actually oppinion on the matter)

Stregnth-Probable more or less even both are fit athletic men.

Fighting ability-Probable about even. Both are proven in combat.

Durability-Indy(Fridge, cliff, sub).

Creativity-McClane "harder opponents with similiar equipment"(being the basic argument for him).

Luck-heck lets hand it to McClane for this exercise.

Agility/dexterity-Indy, I think this one is fairly obvious.

So even if I hand you the 2 areas you are fighting the hardest for and the only 2 you've made any real arguments in. They are still more or less breaking even. Heck even if we give John another hand out in the form of fighting ability. Jones's superior reaction time should make up the difference. While It is my oppinion that Indy wins(and holds the advantage in fighting ability and is tied for creativity and luck). This is one of the closest fight on the board. [/B]

Let's attack the durability issue, yet again. The sub isn't durability, as we have no way of knowing to which depths the sub sank before Indy made it in, if anything, he can hold his breath for a good distance and he had the ingenuity to get into a fully sealed sub, as improbable as that is. But hey, that's what Indy does.

The fridge scene was idiotic beyond idiocy, as he came out of it unharmed, yet we see him get cuts and scraps from falling off a horse.

The cliff, I still don't remember Indy falling off a cliff and being none the worse for it. Either I've forgotten, or you're making it out to be more than it was.

So while they're both far more durable than ordinary men, McClane's beatings have been consistent, ie he didn't survive the likes of a ten story floor fall, only to be KO'd but a 'bonk' on the head later on. Consistency takes it, sorry, it simply overshadows one or two PIS scenes that don't flow with the rest of the films. But having said that, they both obviously have the ability to kill each other, since at the end of the day, neither is invulnerable.

I didn't say McClane took 'harder opponents with similar weapons', I said he takes harder opponents with deadlier weapons. You're really going to compare Col. Stuart and Hamster boy to the likes of an aged mechanic and fat guy who guards starving kid, or an antique WWI tank to an F-35 Lightning? Na. This point McClane clearly has over Indy and what eventually nets him a win here, he's the more skilled brawler and by far the more proficient killer.

Jones wins this with ease simply because Robtard chose McClane.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Jones wins this with ease simply because Robtard chose McClane.

I didn't choose McClane, Hollywood chose him by depicting McClane with the more consistent kill record and fiercer opponents.

Now, if this was a battle to see who could escape the 3k year old booby-trapped pyramid while recovering the lost artifact first, that's go to Indy, as McClane would just fly a fully armed gunship into it and leave the whole place along with the treasure and Indy in a smoking shambles. *cues sarcastic witty line* "They don't make em like they used to, pal."

Originally posted by Robtard
I didn't choose McClane, Hollywood chose him by depicting McClane with the more consistent kill record and fiercer opponents.

Now, if this was a battle to see who could escape the 3k year old booby-trapped pyramid while recovering the lost artifact first, that's go to Indy, as McClane would just fly a fully armed gunship into it and leave the whole place along with the treasure and Indy in a smoking shambles. *cues sarcastic witty line* "They don't make em like they used to, pal."

Lulz.

I was just joking...I have no idea who would win. It's too closely matched.

Both of them have absurd luck...which is really what it comes down to.

Originally posted by Robtard
Let's attack the durability issue, yet again. The sub isn't durability, as we have no way of knowing to which depths the sub sank before Indy made it in, if anything, he can hold his breath for a good distance and he had the ingenuity to get into a fully sealed sub, as improbable as that is. But hey, that's what Indy does.

Their is absalutly no indication he made it into the sub period.

Originally posted by Robtard

The fridge scene was idiotic beyond idiocy, as he came out of it unharmed, yet we see him get cuts and scraps from falling off a horse.

Damage is cumalative you know. Over time even people like McClane and Indy can get worn down.

Originally posted by Robtard

The cliff, I still don't remember Indy falling off a cliff and being none the worse for it. Either I've forgotten, or you're making it out to be more than it was.

Tank drives over cliff wrecks at the bottom Indy climbs cliff. Which was clearly visible and he was not on. In other words he walked away from a fall that FUBARED a tank.

Originally posted by Robtard

So while they're both far more durable than ordinary men, McClane's beatings have been consistent, ie he didn't survive the likes of a ten story floor fall, only to be KO'd but a 'bonk' on the head later on. Consistency takes it, sorry, it simply overshadows one or two PIS scenes that don't flow with the rest of the films. But having said that, they both obviously have the ability to kill each other, since at the end of the day, neither is invulnerable.

Frankly neither is terrible consistent. McClane can get shot, dropped off a multli-story over pass, while avoiding an explosion and walk away from it. Then turned around and get damn near knocked out by "judo Chops" from a 5'6" 110 pound chick. The first time Maggie Q put him on the mat he was down for 4-5 seconds almost half a boxing count out.

Originally posted by Robtard

I didn't say McClane took 'harder opponents with similar weapons', I said he takes harder opponents with deadlier weapons. You're really going to compare Col. Stuart and Hamster boy to the likes of an aged mechanic and fat guy who guards starving kid, or an antique WWI tank to an F-35 Lightning? Na. This point McClane clearly has over Indy and what eventually nets him a win here, he's the more skilled brawler and by far the more proficient killer.

I'm sorry. I think you misunderstood when I said"similiar weapons" I was refering to McClane and Indy, not their opponents.

No I am comparing a 6'5" probable 250+ trained soldier and boxer with a chin of steel, to a guy who practices naked '80's Kung Fu. Or profiecent, stealthy martial artist on their home turf with numbers advantage, to a similiarly sized, far less martialy proficient distracted ninja-chick. As for the tank vs the F-35. The way the idiotic pilot flew it, he'd mis with his missles, nail it a couple of times with his gun while hovering stationary behind it and then get pegged by it. Yes of course normaly an F-35 would smoke a WW1 tank, but one must also look at the whole picture. Not to mention look at what both of them had. McClane had a huge, possible armored truck(well at least mor durable then Indy's horse). Where as Indy was on horse back with a rock.

Again even if McClane has this point over Indy. It doesn'y neccasarily net him a win. Even if McClane is a better more creative brawler Indy still has advantages of his own. Faster, more agile, tougher. Yes I said it tougher. Yes you've tried everything under the sun to down play Indy's durability. From Ignoring it, to pretending like it wasn't so tough, to crying PIS and putting you fingers in you ears. Of course none of this changes that Indy's durability feats smoke McClane's. End of Story.

Not only that, but you have failed to come up with a reasonable argument why you think McClane is a better fighter. You simply sing the praises of McClanes enemies and do your damndest to down play Indy's. While above have done the same it is more testemnet to how any opponent can be made to sound lame. Lets try something though..

The Big German Mechanic vs Ninja-Chick? Whose gonna win? Can she even hurt him? Or how about ninja-chick vs the graveyard defenders, yes both of them on their home turf at dusk.?

You're mis-characterizing me, yet again; it's funny and sad all rolled into one. I have yet to downplay Indy, I merely state why McClane's ahead in a h2h fight here and I have repeatedly, you simply ignore and/or downplay my points. E.G. Truck wasn't armoured, as the F-35's 25mm gun shredded it into confetti, as I've stated, yet here you are claiming otherwise and downplaying McClane.

Anyhow, there's not much else to argue, as I tire of being right, only to have you twist what I said and then me having to re-state /repeat.

Originally posted by Robtard
You're mis-characterizing me, yet again; it's funny, I have yet to downplay Indy, I merely state why McClane's ahead in a h2h fight here and I have repeatedly, you simply ignore and downplay my points.

I think what I said was you down play his enemies and you do. You refer to them as midgets, aged, fat etc. All in an appearent attempt to make them sound a lot less significant then McClanes. Again what is Maggie Q going to do against Pat Roach. What is she going to do against Ernie Reyes Jr and his friend from the graveyard. In the first fight she can't hurt him, in the second she is out numbered and can't keep up.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Lulz.

I was just joking...I have no idea who would win. It's too closely matched.

Both of them have absurd luck...which is really what it comes down to.

I was too and I agree, this is a very close match, but looking at it objectively, you go with the guy who's killed and blown ship up in spades throughout all four of his films.