Cgi and nick Gilliard not in The Original Trilogy

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
OT was iconic. So much so that the people who made Wanted stole the plot twist of ESB. Possibly the biggest and unforeseen plot twist in cinematic history. The PT killed the force by trying to put a scientific spin on it. I don't recall OB1 or Yoda mentioning midichlorians to Luke in either of their explanations of the force. The force was meant to be mystic and not fully understood. They just needed a way to show that Anakin was more powerful than Yoda. But hey... to each their own, right?

Being iconic doesn't make it complex or deep. The OT isn't anymore complex then the PT is. The only reason the OT is held up on a pedestal at all is because it, at the time, had some of the best graphics and was an adrenaline junkies wet dream. The storyline itself is child-like. The good guys are extremely good. The bad guys are extremely bad. The good guys ultimately win at the end of the trilogy... because they're good guys. Even when I watched RotJ and ESB as a little kid for the first time I was never impressed by any of that "I can sense the conflict within you" stuff. It's shallow and was as badly paced as Anakin's fall to the dark side. Anakin's fall is actually more believable, considering we see that Anakin obviously had mental problems throughout the second movie, and so it's not really a surprise that he turned evil. Vader spends the first two movies slaughtering his own men, breaking peoples necks, torturing the main characters, trying to turn his own son to the dark side... and he does all of this without any hesitation. Then in the last half an hour of the third movie he turns himself all around and makes the right choice? That is bad pacing...

The OT is a better trilogy then the PT? Arguable. The OT is much more complex then the PT? Hardly.

I never said it was more complex, and if i gave that impression, then my mistake. I'm saying that adding in a hint of politics doesn't make the PT any ore complex than the OT. And to be fair, RotJ is my least favorite of the OT for exactly the reasons yo mentioned, but on a whole, the OT is better written. In Sith, (which i like the best of the PT) one minute Anakin is all, "I'm going to turn you in" and then 5 minutes later he's "doing whatever you a... ask." Then killing everyone he's been around since he was 9 and bunch of little kids. Is that good pacing?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
That's what I've said.

Ok, but to defend one, you don't have to bash the other. Once someone starts in on the OT, of course I'm gonna start in on the PT. But just because CGI was added to the PT duels, that doesn't make them "better," it makes them different. Flashy, nonsensical moves doesn't equate to a better fight sequence.

So whoa, wait a minute... you two think that the PT is more complex and deeper? And has a better stroyline? Oh my blue harvest heaven. That's just a little more in depth than i want to go right now, but that's crazy. Adding mild politics to a movie doesn't make it more complex or deep. They were mentioning that in ANH. And it wasn't about the politics necessarily, it was about Palps making moves throughout the system that lead to him ruling the galaxy.

OT was iconic. So much so that the people who made Wanted stole the plot twist of ESB. Possibly the biggest and unforeseen plot twist in cinematic history. The PT killed the force by trying to put a scientific spin on it. I don't recall OB1 or Yoda mentioning midichlorians to Luke in either of their explanations of the force. The force was meant to be mystic and not fully understood. They just needed a way to show that Anakin was more powerful than Yoda. But hey... to each their own, right?

Yeah to each his own. lol That saves the both of us a lot of time and stress. We obvious have different views on Star Wars and thats cool. You can pretend the PT never happened if you like.

OT fans would obviously be a lot happier if the Prequels emulated the original films, but Lucas wanted something new, and original. Like all other SW movies, Phantom Menace is unique and entertaining. Jar Jar inspired other movie makers to have 100% CGI characters and proved it is possible no matter how much some older fans hated him.

Many Star Wars fans before the Prequels had the movies already in their heads as what they uniquely wanted. These "movies" will only exist in their minds. Because no matter what anyone thinks, the Prequel are out and it is all Star Wars, canon, and what not.

But to each his own on how they liked the movies.

Well if the man's obviously been disturbed since he was nine, then it's a bit more reasonable for him to just go off. Kids murder their parents when they're 16 years old for stupid ass reasons. People are just 'effed up.

Anakin's fall was more realistic then his redemption because, whereas he went from being a disturbed individual to becoming an extremely disturbed individual over the course of three movies and 10+ years, Vader went from being an extremely disturbed super villain to being... not an extremely disturbed man... in the course of one movie.

It's more realistic for an insane man to become even more insane.... over years... then it is for an incredibly insane man to suddenly repent and go light side in such a short time.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Well if the man's obviously been disturbed since he was nine, then it's a bit more reasonable for him to just go off. Kids murder their parents when they're 16 years old for stupid ass reasons. People are just 'effed up.

Anakin's fall was more realistic then his redemption because, whereas he went from being a disturbed individual to becoming an extremely disturbed individual over the course of three movies and 10+ years, Vader went from being an extremely disturbed super villain to being... not an extremely disturbed man... in the course of one movie.

It's more realistic for an insane man to become even more insane.... over years... then it is for an incredibly insane man to suddenly repent and go light side in such a short time.

I suppose. I love all six films, but I hate it when people trash the Prequels, I mean, none of the SW films are perfect but to say one trilogy is better than the other is stupid in my opinion. Each trilogy involved ground breaking visual effects and opened barriers to other production companies.

Apparently some people feel as if George Lucas rapped their childhood. But I mean, Star Wars is George Lucas, he owns it and it is his thing. He has every right to do what he did. To say midiclorians are stupid is pathetic becuase it happened in the Star War universe, then fans get all upset and make up their own version of Star Wars in their minds where The Force is just...the Force and has no justification to how it actually works.

I am sure the Prequels will be appreciated more when they age. I mean the Empire Strikes Back made the least amount of money I think and many fans now believe it is the strongest one.

My post was actually in reply to Subject's post.

waffles.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about? When did I say that I made up my own versions in my head? I, along with countless others, think the midchlorian garbage is just that... garbage. I'm not saying its not valid, I'm not saying its not canon. I'm saying its stupid. Obviously it wasn't part of his "original" vision, or else he would have mentioned it in the original movies.

Read this and tell me if this even gives the ability for midicholians. This is from the script.

YODA: And well you should not. For my ally in the Force. And a
powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy
surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...(Yoda pinches
Luke's shoulder)...not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must
feel the Force around you. (gesturing) Here, between you...me...the
tree...the rock...everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that
ship!

If we are luminous beings, and not "crude matter," i.e. flesh, bone, and blood... then how can the force be tangible "Crude matter" in our blood? That's all i'm saying about that. I know GL wrote it into the saga and therefore it goes, but you act like he's never made a mistake with the script or wrote something you don't like.

You keep saying that saying one is better than the other, yet you keep saying that the PT is better.

Blax:

You can tell in ESB than Vader is already starting to lighten up. You can tell he's thinking about Luke in a fatherly way, despite still being twisted by the darkside. And in RotJ, you can tell he doesn't want to hurt Luke or even turn him into the Emperor. So his transition is gradual, just not as emphasized as some would like. And he did fulfil the prophecy. But i do understand your point though.

Pancakes.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Dude, what the hell are you talking about? When did I say that I made up my own versions in my head? I, along with countless others, think the midchlorian garbage is just that... garbage. I'm not saying its not valid, I'm not saying its not canon. I'm saying its stupid. Obviously it wasn't part of his "original" vision, or else he would have mentioned it in the original movies.

Read this and tell me if this even gives the ability for midicholians. This is from the script.

YODA: And well you should not. For my ally in the Force. And a
powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy
surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...(Yoda pinches
Luke's shoulder)...not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must
feel the Force around you. (gesturing) Here, between you...me...the
tree...the rock...everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that
ship!

If we are luminous beings, and not "crude matter," i.e. flesh, bone, and blood... then how can the force be tangible "Crude matter" in our blood? That's all i'm saying about that. I know GL wrote it into the saga and therefore it goes, but you act like he's never made a mistake with the script or wrote something you don't like.

You keep saying that saying one is better than the other, yet you keep saying that the PT is better.

Blax:

You can tell in ESB than Vader is already starting to lighten up. You can tell he's thinking about Luke in a fatherly way, despite still being twisted by the darkside. And in RotJ, you can tell he doesn't want to hurt Luke or even turn him into the Emperor. So his transition is gradual, just not as emphasized as some would like. And he did fulfil the prophecy. But i do understand your point though.

Pancakes.

Yoda was talking about the Force though in ESB. He didn't mention Midi-chlorians becuase they were not invented...er I mean he really didn't need to talk about it becuase he knew Luke was already very Force sensitive.

Midi-chlorians communicate with the Force, it really has nothing to do with the Force itself. Life creates it. Life in scientific form is biology, and Midi-chlorians are microscopic lifeforms so they are living.

The "crude matter" line does spark some questions though. Maybe it is similar to how we pray to God to communicate with him. Maybe the midi-chlorians are just an intermediary for living things to communicate and access the Force while they are not part of it or alive.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
My post was actually in reply to Subject's post.

waffles.

Sorry, but please use the quote feature next time.

Heh. I didn't say the prequels had a better story- just that it had a more complex, deep story that seems to be more connected to the 'real' world than the previous, black-and-white styled OT. The OT is more naive, with clear good guys, clear bad guys, and is also, at points, unrealistic, such as the majority of RotJ (the worst Star Wars movie, IMO). Meanwhile, in the prequels, the 'good guys' come off as complete dicks, ignorant of people's actual necessity rather than 'learn the force' and stuff like that.

The bad guys are almost entirely, what I said previously, misguided idealists; Dooku doesn't want to 'CONTROL THE WORLD!!!'. He wants to, incredibly enough, heal corruption in the senate. Does that remind you of real-world situations? Anakin turned to the dark side for believable reasons, and while his transformation was too quick, the reasons were believable. Put yourself in his shoes, and you'll understand. He tried to bring order to the galaxy and save his loved ones- yeah, it's tough to 'like' such a complex villain, that is not quite... a 'true' villain, so much as he is a misguided hero.

Yeah. The OT's story was more continuous, more even, more linear, and easier to understand, but the PT's story was a more complex one (although that doesn't quite surface until RotS). As I said previously, that's not necessarily better, but... you get the point.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

But the saber duels being "flashy" doesn't make them "better." A lot of the flashiness is unnecessary, and its noticeable. But more of the younger fans like the PT cause it came out in their time and was geared towards them. Which is fine. Just understand the reasons for the differences and don't just say that the PT pwns the OT cause its newer and flashier.

...not all uh, young fans. I could be considered as one, but I'm more of an OT fan than a PT fan. You have to appreciate the good storyline/plot and the emotional depth in the OT... The PT's weren't all bad, but the plot was, IMHO, not that well written. I felt like everything was just too childish(well, maybe not everything on this one. But argh, TPM.) and fast. One of the only few things that probably saved it is the flashing lights and the insane special effects.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

*sigh* I wasn't referring only to you, but in general to the younger fans that think the OT sucked just because it's not filled with pointless CGI.

one of the problems of my generation. Ugh. Attracted by cool flashing lights and overloads of special effects. Whatever happened to just enjoying the awesome story?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Each trilogy has more of a fun, lightweight episode. ANH/AotC seems like the correct comparison.

cheesy romantic scenes are considered fun? *blinks innocently*

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Heh. I didn't say the prequels had a better story- just that it had a more complex, deep story that seems to be more connected to the 'real' world than the previous, black-and-white styled OT. The OT is more naive, with clear good guys, clear bad guys, and is also, at points, unrealistic, such as the majority of RotJ (the worst Star Wars movie, IMO). Meanwhile, in the prequels, the 'good guys' come off as complete dicks, ignorant of people's actual necessity rather than 'learn the force' and stuff like that.

agreed. Sometimes black-and-whites are refreshing though... back when the world looked way simpler then. *sigh*

Don't get me wrong, I like the PT, but the OT just appeals to me more. *shrug*

But something sparks in my mind on how PT and OT are alike in a lot of ways- I just can't type them all down because somehow I can't quite describe them.

But all this is IMHO.

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
[B]one of the problems of my generation. Ugh. Attracted by cool flashing lights and overloads of special effects. Whatever happened to just enjoying the awesome story?

Because the story wasn't all that awesome. 😐

And geeze, all of you people who talk about this, you don't realize that the OT is famous because of it's graphics. It's story wasn't in any way unique, or special, or anything. Star Wars at the time was the prettiest movie ever, and it's fan were doing the exact same thing then that PT fans are doing now.
So I fail to see your points in this regard.

agreed. Sometimes black-and-whites are refreshing though... back when the world looked way simpler then. *sigh*

Well... there's drugs for that m'dear. xD

And speaking of which, I haven't seen you for a loooongggg time. How's life?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Heh. I didn't say the prequels had a better story- just that it had a more complex, deep story that seems to be more connected to the 'real' world than the previous, black-and-white styled OT. The OT is more naive, with clear good guys, clear bad guys, and is also, at points, unrealistic, such as the majority of RotJ (the worst Star Wars movie, IMO). Meanwhile, in the prequels, the 'good guys' come off as complete dicks, ignorant of people's actual necessity rather than 'learn the force' and stuff like that.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The bad guys are almost entirely, what I said previously, misguided idealists; Dooku doesn't want to 'CONTROL THE WORLD!!!'. He wants to, incredibly enough, heal corruption in the senate. Does that remind you of real-world situations? Anakin turned to the dark side for believable reasons, and while his transformation was too quick, the reasons were believable. Put yourself in his shoes, and you'll understand. He tried to bring order to the galaxy and save his loved ones- yeah, it's tough to 'like' such a complex villain, that is not quite... a 'true' villain, so much as he is a misguided hero.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah. The OT's story was more continuous, more even, more linear, and easier to understand, but the PT's story was a more complex one (although that doesn't quite surface until RotS). As I said previously, that's not necessarily better, but... you get the point.

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
...not all uh, young fans. I could be considered as one, but I'm more of an OT fan than a PT fan. You have to appreciate the good storyline/plot and the emotional depth in the OT... The PT's weren't all bad, but the plot was, IMHO, not that well written. I felt like everything was just too childish(well, maybe not everything on this one. But argh, TPM.) and fast. One of the only few things that probably saved it is the flashing lights and the insane special effects.

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
one of the problems of my generation. Ugh. Attracted by cool flashing lights and overloads of special effects. Whatever happened to just enjoying the awesome story?

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
cheesy romantic scenes are considered fun? *blinks innocently*

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
agreed. Sometimes black-and-whites are refreshing though... back when the world looked way simpler then. *sigh*

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
Don't get me wrong, I like the PT, but the OT just appeals to me more. *shrug*

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
But something sparks in my mind on how PT and OT are alike in a lot of ways- I just can't type them all down because somehow I can't quite describe them.

But all this is IMHO.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Because the story wasn't all that awesome. 😐

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
And geeze, all of you people who talk about this, you don't realize that the OT is famous because of it's graphics. It's story wasn't in any way unique, or special, or anything. Star Wars at the time was the prettiest movie ever, and it's fan were doing the exact same thing then that PT fans are doing now.
So I fail to see your points in this regard.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Well... there's drugs for that m'dear. xD

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Unrealistic? So... the talking robots with personalities and emotions, lightsabers, explosions in space, the mysterious thing called the force, and the ability to perform superhuman feats aren't realistic, but having "black and white" heroes and villains, is? Hmm, ok. That's what Lucas wanted. A pure morality tale. He's said that on multiple occasions. Who came off like complete dicks?

Percisely. I know that's what GL intended, I said it the very beginning- however, it doesn't quite attract me as much as the PT's story, where... well, it's more 'gray' than either white or black. The line between hero and villain is thinner, particlarly in the example of Anakin.

Who came off as complete dicks? PT Jedi. Anakin is emotionally torn, destroyed, and distressed, and comes to Master Yoda-much-fear-I-sense and confides in him his emotions. What does Yoda say? "Errr... train yourself so you won't care about people anymore!". Sorry, that's ridiculous. And there's Mace- instead of being a more kindly figure to Anakin, he acts like an old fart to him. Surprised that Anakin chose Palpatine over him? I'm not.

Meanwhile, the OT good guys came off as totally perfect. They made the lesser bad guy turn good again, they had the uber evil guy die, they won the ridiculous battle of Endor, they all turned out to be morally correct. On the last example, I must elaborate. Han Solo, my favorite of the OT, is a supposed 'gruff, lonely' type who works alone. In the end? He joins the rebellion, becomes a war hero, etc, etc, etc. Luke, of course, saved the universe and redeemed his father. Is there any true, glaring moral defect or any sort of bad decisions (in the end) by the good guys? Well, at least as presented within the films, absolutely none.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
No no no, I'm sorry but you're wrong here. Dooku, as a political idealist wanted to fight corruption in the republic. However, Dooku as a Sith Lord - Darth Tyraunus - did in fact want to help his master 'CONTROL THE GALAXY!!!!" I don't know many political idealists that are willing to start wars in which millions die through corruption, just to rid the republic of... corruption. And Anakin is not a villain, you're right. He's whats considered a tragic hero which the very concept dates back to Shakespearean times. I'm cool with that too, as Anakin/Vader is my fav character.

I hate the whiny character of Anakin, but he's easily the most complex and interesting character in Star Wars.

Dooku could, at the beginning of his journey, at least, be called an anti-hero. Not an uber "CONTROL THE WORLD!!!" villain. Off the top of my mind, in the RotS novel, he believes that the ultimate goal of Sidious and him is to replace the Jedi Order with a new, superior Sith army- he even says that it is tiring for him to play the villain for so long, implying that he, indeed, has overall good intentions (or at least they appear so to him), not necessarily selfish intentions.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Whats so complex about a boy who grows up in bullshit scenarios and becomes bad, along with a bad guy making moves through political channels to take control? Hitler, anyone? (pssst... that's not original either)

A messed up kid who goes through all the bad decisions in the world, complicated politics, secret love, war, destruction, death, and I could go on. The OT? Kid learns that he has uber force potential, faces his father multiple times, redeems him, and saves the world.

What do you think is more complicated, really?

Oh, and to be honest, I'm not into the uber special effects of the prequels. Sure, they're amazing, but I never found them to be purely the point. And I like fast and flashing fights better than the OT's one. Personal taste, lol.

I could similarly say that all the old fans refuse to rape their own childhood by admitting that a series equal or perhaps even superior to their beloved childhood series, and so they live in denial. They also have an aversion to high budgets and awesome special effects... why? Dun ask me.

Not saying this situation necessarily applies to you (it's your right to like the OT as much as the PT, especially as you're not doing it in the... err... prequel basher way), but it certainly applies to many of the people I've seen on the web.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Percisely. I know that's what GL intended, I said it the very beginning- however, it doesn't quite attract me as much as the PT's story, where... well, it's more 'gray' than either white or black. The line between hero and villain is thinner, particlarly in the example of Anakin.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Who came off as complete dicks? PT Jedi. Anakin is emotionally torn, destroyed, and distressed, and comes to Master Yoda-much-fear-I-sense and confides in him his emotions. What does Yoda say? "Errr... train yourself so you won't care about people anymore!". Sorry, that's ridiculous. And there's Mace- instead of being a more kindly figure to Anakin, he acts like an old fart to him. Surprised that Anakin chose Palpatine over him? I'm not.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Meanwhile, the OT good guys came off as totally perfect. They made the lesser bad guy turn good again, they had the uber evil guy die, they won the ridiculous battle of Endor, they all turned out to be morally correct. On the last example, I must elaborate. Han Solo, my favorite of the OT, is a supposed 'gruff, lonely' type who works alone. In the end? He joins the rebellion, becomes a war hero, etc, etc, etc. Luke, of course, saved the universe and redeemed his father. Is there any true, glaring moral defect or any sort of bad decisions (in the end) by the good guys? Well, at least as presented within the films, absolutely none.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I hate the whiny character of Anakin, but he's easily the most complex and interesting character in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku could, at the beginning of his journey, at least, be called an anti-hero. Not an uber "CONTROL THE WORLD!!!" villain. Off the top of my mind, in the RotS novel, he believes that the ultimate goal of Sidious and him is to replace the Jedi Order with a new, superior Sith army- he even says that it is tiring for him to play the villain for so long, implying that he, indeed, has overall good intentions (or at least they appear so to him), not necessarily selfish intentions.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
A messed up kid who goes through all the bad decisions in the world, complicated politics, secret love, war, destruction, death, and I could go on. The OT? Kid learns that he has uber force potential, faces his father multiple times, redeems him, and saves the world.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
What do you think is more complicated, really?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, and to be honest, I'm not into the uber special effects of the prequels. Sure, they're amazing, but I never found them to be purely the point. And I like fast and flashing fights better than the OT's one. Personal taste, lol.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I could similarly say that all the old fans refuse to rape their own childhood by admitting that a series equal or perhaps even superior to their beloved childhood series, and so they live in denial. They also have an aversion to high budgets and awesome special effects... why? Dun ask me.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Not saying this situation necessarily applies to you (it's your right to like the OT as much as the PT, especially as you're not doing it in the... err... prequel basher way), but it certainly applies to many of the people I've seen on the web.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
What, and the PT story is?

No, but I didn't say that, did I? She said the equivalent of "why can't people just ignore the FX and settle with the awesome story."

The story isn't all that awesome. Neither the PT or OT's stories are all that great. But.. PT does have a ton of sextactular graphics. So... if I'm going to a cheesy sci-fi flick with cheesy diologue and a cheesy story, I'd at least like for it to be presented in an incredibly beautiful, decked out way.

I am saying that one (the OT) is better written. The average fan's age for the PT was 24, where as the average fan age for the PT is 17.

Well, I disagree. You've already seen my qualms with the pacing and the black and white ultimate good and ultimate evil thing in particular. Indiana Jones has the same problem...

And where might we get some of these?

I uh... I don't know what you're talking about.. >.>

wow, i dont know what you said or what i said. Either the quote boxes got messed up or i'm just drunker than i think... 🍺

Fixed... 131

Oh, you're good. And fast.

However, we'll just have to disagree. We both have our opinions and no amount of debating will change that. 😬

Well... want another beer in that case?

let's do it up!