Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So..where do these rights come from? Your just born with them?
That's right. Whom ever you may desire to ascribe them to is up to you. You say it's Jesus; Ali Hazeem says it Allah; Joe Schmoe says it's Yahweh; Billy Buddhist says it doesn't matter and Athiest Alan might believe it's the process of evolution and the wonders of science and nature.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
What evidence do you have to prove we all share the same rights?
Are you alive? Do you like being treted unfairly? Do you think your neighbour has the right to make you convert to his religion? Do you think Islam should be spreading it's religion at the end of a gun? Do you think the Pope should have ultimate authority on Earth? How would you feel about owning another human being?
Originally posted by Devil King
Are you alive?
Originally posted by Devil King
Do you like being treted unfairly?
Originally posted by Devil King
Do you think your neighbour has the right to make you convert to his religion?
Originally posted by Devil King
Do you think Islam should be spreading it's religion at the end of a gun?
Originally posted by Devil King
Do you think the Pope should have ultimate authority on Earth?
Originally posted by Devil King
How would you feel about owning another human being?
I don't like the idea.
That was all very good but it doesn't say much for those Rights you described. Which as you said, can be withheld in certain economic/wartime factors.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Well, by Digimarks logic, I dont know is the only answer I can give.
😬
One, I'm not even in this discussion. Two, this comment is wildly out of context, and doesn't include the entire argument but only the part that you want to mock me for.
Really, I understand that we don't see eye to eye on much in this forum, but at least I'm respectful to you.
And btw, his questions were rhetorical, intended to show you that rote answers we'd all give to such questions establish common rights apart from any religious belief.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
😬One, I'm not even in this discussion. Two, this comment is wildly out of context, and doesn't include the entire argument but only the part that you want to mock me for.
Really, I understand that we don't see eye to eye on much in this forum, but at least I'm respectful to you.
And btw, his questions were rhetorical, intended to show you that rote answers we'd all give to such questions establish common rights apart from any religious belief.
My dear digimark it was a playful joke intended to illustrate the wondrous world of different opinion and varied interpretation. My apologies to you.
Furthermore, his questions may have been rhetorical but were no less bogus- infact by asking them he defeated his own argument. He stated rights were not given by man...I asked what his evidence was, he refered me to my own beliefs...if rights are defined by what we believed. Then in ancient Rome women did not have the unalienable un-given right to choose their husband...
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Well, by Digimarks logic, I dont know is the only answer I can give.Not really but I don't like the idea of State Benefits...but some people believe it's their right...so whether I like it or not proves nothing.
Really, please clarify on this one! I would say it's OK for him to discuss his religion with you and explain why he believes you should believe in it yes...rational discussion is a good thing.
Should anyone be allowed to spread anything with force? Though whether I think it should or not doesn't really explain rights...
He does and should have
I don't like the idea.
That was all very good but it doesn't say much for those Rights you described. Which as you said, can be withheld in certain economic/wartime factors.
Oh, christ, I didn't realize you were Catholic.
I described no rights.
Yes, well, as a gay man, I don't have the same rights as you would in this country and that has nothing to do with the war or the economy...so your example doesn't really mean much.
I'm not addressing the reality of how this country works. I'm addressing the intent on which it was founded. I would invite you to consider the rights that are being taken away from Americans due to the "War on Terror". There is a reason people are pissed off. Because the government shouldn't have the ability to take away rights, but it is. And you should remember that Rights are differrent from rights.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
My dear digimark it was a playful joke intended to illustrate the wondrous world of different opinion and varied interpretation. My apologies to you.Furthermore, his questions may have been rhetorical but were no less bogus- infact by asking them he defeated his own argument. He stated rights were not given by man...I asked what his evidence was, he refered me to my own beliefs...if rights are defined by what we believed. Then in ancient Rome women did not have the unalienable un-given right to choose their husband...
No, my friend, not bogus. What's bogus is that these ideas and the reality of their intent was realized 300 years ago, and you still don't understand them.
Yes, they did have the right to choose their husband. It simply wasn't allowed to them, by other humans. That's why the US isn't Rome.
And I referred you to your own beliefs as a matter of where you have every right to believe those rights came. For me "their Creator" doesn't mean Jesus Christ. For you, it does, and that's your right.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
My dear digimark it was a playful joke intended to illustrate the wondrous world of different opinion and varied interpretation. My apologies to you.Furthermore, his questions may have been rhetorical but were no less bogus- infact by asking them he defeated his own argument. He stated rights were not given by man...I asked what his evidence was, he refered me to my own beliefs...if rights are defined by what we believed. Then in ancient Rome women did not have the unalienable un-given right to choose their husband...
Ah. Fair 'nuf then.
Originally posted by Devil King
Oh, christ, I didn't realize you were Catholic.I described no rights.
Yes, well, as a gay man, I don't have the same rights as you would in this country and that has nothing to do with the war or the economy...so your example doesn't really mean much.
No no, I didn't mean standing laws I meant the American Declaration of Independence...which dished out "unalienable Rights" but suspended them for some, my point was that these "rights" while being described as comming from a creator were in fact given by man...
Again, the fact that the government feels it can withhold Rights from you it gives to other citizens seems, to me, to suggest that the rights are certainly not "unalienable"
Originally posted by Devil King
I'm not addressing the reality of how this country works. I'm addressing the intent on which it was founded. I would invite you to consider the rights that are being taken away from Americans due to the "War on Terror". There is a reason people are pissed off. Because the government shouldn't have the ability to take away rights, but it is. And you should remember that Rights are differrent from rights.
I'm glad you made the distinction at the end there and I agree with you the government does not have the right to remove your Rights.
However, that was not my question...what do you base these Rights on, where do you think they come from and what evidence do you have that they are in fact real? Or does that even matter?
Originally posted by Devil KingThey do. They don't have the same relation to the rights. But I would be just as oppressed as you by the laws of the US, even though I personally could easily forfeit the right I believe everyone should have.
yes. all men have the same rights. but gay men and straight men do not have the same rights.
Originally posted by Bardock42
They do. They don't have the same relation to the rights. But I would be just as oppressed as you by the laws of the US, even though I personally could easily forfeit the right I believe everyone should have.
All men in the US have the same rights. But gay men (and women) and straight men (and women) do not have equitable rights. That is why it's descrimination.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No no, I didn't mean standing laws I meant the American Declaration of Independence...which dished out "unalienable Rights" but suspended them for some, my point was that these "rights" while being described as comming from a creator were in fact given by man...Again, the fact that the government feels it can withhold Rights from you it gives to other citizens seems, to me, to suggest that the rights are certainly not "unalienable"
I'm glad you made the distinction at the end there and I agree with you the government does not have the right to remove your Rights.
However, that was not my question...what do you base these Rights on, where do you think they come from and what evidence do you have that they are in fact real? Or does that even matter?
I really get the sense you're trying not to understand this. Rights were NOT HANDED OUT, they were DECLARED. AS FACT, as reality in the human condition. They are not, as was said, given by kings, gods, popes or presidents to all people, as it was up to the people to decide where they came from, but that their opinion does not change the fact that they have them. And as mind-boggling as it will sound to you, you have the right not to think you deserve any rights that weren't passed out by Jesus. If that's where you think you got your rights, run with it. But you have rights. And the only possible out for you is to deny that you have rights.
Originally posted by Devil King
I really get the sense you're trying not to understand this. Rights were NOT HANDED OUT, they were DECLARED. AS FACT, as reality in the human condition. They are not, as was said, given by kings, gods, popes or presidents to all people, as it was up to the people to decide where they came from, but that their opinion does not change the fact that they have them. And as mind-boggling as it will sound to you, you have the right not to think you deserve any rights that weren't passed out by Jesus. If that's where you think you got your rights, run with it. But you have rights. And the only possible out for you is to deny that you have rights.
I do believe we have Rights, I do believe that they cannot be taken away as well.
HOWEVER, lets think about this...
The Signatories accept that all mankind has Rights that they are born with and are not given to by the State...however, they then choose to suspend those rights to slaves because, as you said, they needed to maintain the support of the southern states in order to fight against Britain. What does this tell us? These men who accept Rights are not given by any man then claim sovereignty over these Rights and choose who may have them and who may not. (My point is you can't refer to that Declaration as evidence for the existence of human rights..its simply people giving their opinion on them, which they dont seem to feel is too binding anyway.)
I am not nor have I ever said I do not believe we as human beings have Rights but I am asking you where do you think these rights come from, what evidence do you have for these rights and does it matter if they aren't actually real anyway and just taken upon by us...
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I do believe we have Rights, I do believe that they cannot be taken away as well.HOWEVER, lets think about this...
The Signatories accept that all mankind has Rights that they are born with and are not given to by the State...however, they then choose to suspend those rights to slaves because, as you said, they needed to maintain the support of the southern states in order to fight against Britain. What does this tell us? These men who accept Rights are not given by any man then claim sovereignty over these Rights and choose who may have them and who may not. (My point is you can't refer to that Declaration as evidence for the existence of human rights..its simply people giving their opinion on them, which they dont seem to feel is too binding anyway.)
I am not nor have I ever said I do not believe we as human beings have Rights but I am asking you where do you think these rights come from, what evidence do you have for these rights and does it matter if they aren't actually real anyway and just taken upon by us...
And I also explained that the rights we all have as living human bengs were denied to some, and for the same reason you mentioned women in ancient Rome. They were denied by some, but a majority of the peopple involved in the process believed that those rights were applicable to slaves. Just because some did not think they were does not mean the slaves didn't have them, it meant they were forcibly denied to them. Again, you're getting carried off by how the US government works (or worked) and not what was the intent.
These rights are our when we're born. As to where they come from, that is up to each and every person to decide for themselves. AGAIN, you can think they come from God; I happen to believe they are ours by virtue of existence. You are more than welcome to think that god has the ability to take them away from you. But I do not think He does, because I do not think He is particularly interested.