Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Thank you, thats all I needed to know...So, you'll be supporting Equal Rights for the Great Apes then?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights."
I, personally, think that animals do have the right to exist without being needlessly murdered as a resource or hinderance to human needs and desires. But, I do nott hold that you have to subscribe to the same idea.
Originally posted by Devil King
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [b]men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights."I, personally, think that animals do have the right to exist without being needlessly murdered as a resource or hinderance to human needs and desires. But, I do nott hold that you have to subscribe to the same idea. [/B]
I'm sorry, why do we have rights because we live but animals don't...
Oh, and why do you quote that Declaration?
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I'm sorry, why do we have rights because we live but animals don't...Oh, and why do you quote that Declaration?
Are you not understanding me? I think they do have rights. But I do not think that just because I think they do that you have to as well.
Governments are not created to govern or protect animals.
Why do you quote the bible? The Declaration is a wonderfu example of mankind's ability to seperate it's own condition into equal categories based on the reader of the words. In it, I find my right to exist and persue happiness. In it, you can find your right to persue happiness as you see fit to translate it from the intentions of your definition of god. We both win. Your bible does not provide such liberty or consideration.
I think you have the right, it's simply denied by the people in power. A lot of countries on this planet don't have the ability to excersice their own rights. Tibet, China, Darfur, Saudi Arabia, ect. These people have rights, they simply aren't in a position to enjoy them. And the US is inching closer and closer to a need for a bill of the lack of our rights. In fact, we pretty much have been since the day after we elected our first independant government.
Originally posted by Devil King
Are you not understanding me? I think they do have rights. But I do not think that just because I think they do that you have to as well.Governments are not created to govern or protect animals.
So why do I have to acknowledge your rights but not the rights of animals...since Rights are given by Birth.
Originally posted by Devil King
Why do you quote the bible? The Declaration is a wonderfu example of mankind's ability to seperate it's own condition into equal categories based on the reader of the words. In it, I find my right to exist and persue happiness. In it, you can find your right to persue happiness as you see fit to translate it from the intentions of your definition of god. We both win. Your bible does not provide such liberty or consideration.
First off I'm not quoting the Bible...so that was silly of you...
So you believe the Declaration codifies what your rights are...though it is not the governing body of what your rights are...
Oh by the way, theres a Latin Term for what you just did, attacking someone elses belief when your own is questioned...even if the other persons beleif is not part of the debate...I can't remember what it is... bet Bardock would know.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So why do I have to acknowledge your rights but not the rights of animals...since Rights are given by Birth.
Because I am your equal. And I just said you "don't have to", I choose to because I believe animals do have the right to their own existence.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
First off I'm not quoting the Bible...so that was silly of you...So you believe the Declaration codifies what your rights are...though it is not the governing body of what your rights are...
You do quote the bible, a lot. I've seen you do it a dozen times in half as many threads today alone. You quote it and interpret it and substantiate it.
It isn't a matter of believing it does. In point of fact, it does. You've never read eith the DoI or the US Constitution, have you?
Originally posted by Devil King
Because I am your equal. And I just said you "don't have to", I choose to because I believe animals do have the right to their own existence.You do quote the bible, a lot. I've seen you do it a dozen times in half as many threads today alone. You quote it and interpret it and substantiate it.
It isn't a matter of believing it does. In point of fact, it does. You've never read eith the DoI or the US Constitution, have you?
I said I'M NOT, the Bible was not part of the debate, you attacked it as a means to support your own attitudes towards that Declaration. I have read it actually...I am not criticizing it...I am just interested to know why you value it so highly...
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I said I'M NOT, the Bible was not part of the debate, you attacked it as a means to support your own attitudes towards that Declaration. I have read it actually...I am not criticizing it...I am just interested to know why you value it so highly...
So, why don't you have to value my rights?
I didn't attack it. I said it doesn't provide rights for anyone excpt the people who believe in it, and even those rights are based on specific adherence. The DoI does not do this. In fact, it does the opposite. This is why I value it.
Originally posted by Devil King
So, why don't you have to value my rights?I didn't attack it. I said it doesn't provide rights for anyone excpt the people who believe in it, and even those rights are based on specific adherence. The DoI does not do this. In fact, it does the opposite. This is why I value it.
I do value your rights and I do value your existence...
Never said I didn't.
Jesus "Love your neighbour, do unto him as you would have done to you."
Thats an unrestricted command.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
Now the problem comes down to what you consider a right, even with our own Constitution the pursuit of happiness is very vague. I don’t have the right to do drugs (which I don’t not counting beer 😄) but if this made you happy then we would be denying the right.
Originally posted by Devil King
And the US is inching closer and closer to a need for a bill of the lack of our rights. In fact, we pretty much have been since the day after we elected our first independant government.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I do value your rights and I do value your existence...Never said I didn't.
Jesus "Love your neighbour, do unto him as you would have done to you."
Thats an unrestricted command.
A command that is not supported by the first half of the bible, but is included and soundly ignored by many of the followers of the second half; just as has been done with the Declaration.
Jesus had wonderful intentions, as a historical figure (real or mythical) I support many of his teachings, soundly. As did Mr, Jefferson, who had a copy of the bible from which he had removed every reference to the divinity of Christ. But, like Jefferson and Franklin, his good intentions were corrupted as soon as the pen was lifted from paper. As soon as Jesus said it, it was used to condemn others and practice the exact opposite of what he was saying.
Originally posted by Devil King
A command that is not supported by the first half of the bible, but is included and soundly ignored by many of the followers of the second half; just as has been done with the Declaration.
The first half is almost irrellevant- it provides a context for what Jesus did.
Indeed, many Christians ignore it...yesterday I saw a video in which some American Fundamentalists said the government should execute homosexuals...
Needless to say Jesus would not want that...but these "Christians" are ignoring another famous line, "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone".
However, just because people who claim to be Christians do not follow the Bible as they should does not actually dilute the text itself.
Originally posted by Devil KingI don’t think that is an accurate comparison, even in the US the rights are only given to Americans and even then you can loose those rights if you do not follow the laws of the land. The rights of Americans do not extend past our borders, the rights of the Christians extend to any and all borders as long as you follow the faith. The rights of Americans are given to us by the government and the mass majority that is in control.
So, why don't you have to value my rights?I didn't attack it. I said it doesn't provide rights for anyone excpt the people who believe in it, and even those rights are based on specific adherence. The DoI does not do this. In fact, it does the opposite. This is why I value it.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
I don’t think that is an accurate comparison, even in the US the rights are only given to Americans and even then you can loose those rights if you do not follow the laws of the land. The rights of Americans do not extend past our borders, the rights of the Christians extend to any and all borders as long as you follow the faith. The rights of Americans are given to us by the government and the mass majority that is in control.
Again, the intention was corrpted practically as soon as the idea was written down.
They are not given to us by the government, despite the position held for many years by our politial system. They are protected by the government. This was the intention of our system of government. And rights are not, should not as was intended by the founders of this REPUBLIC, granted by the majority. It is for this very reason that I have made the accusation that asking the majority to bestow or give rights to a minority is contrary to the system of government on which this nation was founded.