Originally posted by Soljer
I'm sorry, but that's a very ignorant assertion. Any debate that goes on very long isn't worth having?
Debating the difference in who is a better hand-to-hand fighter between Captain America and Batman is not worth having if you have to debate it for dozens of pages and still not come up with a clear answer. Besides, it has already been done to death. There are decades of comic history to support either character in a debate. Clearly, there is evidence to support either Captain America or Batman (it's really up to personal opinion), and even if there were a difference (I'm not saying there is), it would be minuscule.
If it comes down to debating the small differences between the characters in order to find out who would win, then right off the bat it should tell you that the characters are close enough to be practically equal. Having the overall debate itself is fine, but when people start arguing over minutia as the crux (decisive factor) of their argument on who should win is when it starts to become tired.
-Evangel94
Question:
What does the SSS do?
a) Make a human into the pinnacle of human perfection
b) Make a human into the pinnacle of THAT HUMAN'S perfection
The above are VERY different statements.
If what it does is make the person into the apogee of what a human can be, then they would both (Bats and Cap) be equal.
However, if what it does is make that human into the sheer perfection apogee of what HE OR SHE would be, then it depends on that human's makeup.
And personally i think it is the 2nd version, where it will take you to absolute perfection, but based on what YOU would be at if absolutely perfect.
Think of it this way:
The SpeedForce (equally given) should make two speedsters have the same speed (obviously ignore people like Wally who had a mainline while others only had a 'taste'😉 .....imagine both people have a mainline to the speedforce. Both would be EQUALLY as fast, because the speedforce is not enhancing their speed .....it IS their speed. Applied equally, the two will be at the same speed.
But now, think of an Olympics 100m sprint, where you have two atheletes who both take the SAME steroid. The steroid will immediately make them faster, but what the steroid is doing is BOOSTING WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE, meaning if that runner A is naturally faster than runner B, and both take the same quantities of steroid X at the same time, runner A will definitely outrun runner B. Both get amped, and steroid X is amping runner A the same measure as it is amping runner B, BUT runner A is naturally faster than runner B ....thus, if steroid X adds 3mph to both runners, and runner A can move at 21 mph NATURALLY while runner B can move at 19 mph naturally, what it means is now runner A moves at 24 mph while runner B moves at 22 mph.
And runner A is faster.
Thus, I'd say that the SSS would not make Bat and Cap equal, unless someone states that it is more like the speedforce rather than a really amped up steroid.
Just my thoughts
Originally posted by MrHeavySilence
The no weapons thing confuses me. Batman's suit itself is pretty much a weapon, I mean, the gauntlets have knives on them and the suit can take a Wonder Woman punch..
Thats not standard equipment.
Originally posted by Soljer
Sure we do. The stats of the individual [b]before the application of the SSS never made a difference.The stats of the individual before the spider-amp has made a difference. [/B]
Its been suggested that Protocide is stronger than Cap because he was stronger when he got the SSS, nothing concerete though.
Originally posted by Soljer
I'm sorry, but that's a very ignorant assertion. Any debate that goes on very long isn't worth having?--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To everyone clamoring about Batman with the SSS becoming a superhuman since it made a scrawny little think like Steve Rogers peak human, I must say; it doesn't work that way.
The SSS is not a multiplier. It does not add a certain amount of strength or speed.
It makes the subject peak human. That's it. If Spiderman were given the SSS, his physical abilities wouldn't actually change at all.
In example, many men were later given the SSS; none of whom were as scrawny or pathetic as pre-SSS Rogers. None of them, afterwards, were anything more than Captain America.
Simple enough?
Batman vs. Captain America in hand to hand - Cap, 8/10.
Batman vs. Captain America - 5/10 either way
Batman w/ SSS vs. Captain America in hand to hand - 5/10 either way
Batman w/ SSS vs. Captain America - 8/10 Batman
thanks for the info on what the SSS technically does.
Originally posted by Evangel94
Debating the difference in who is a better hand-to-hand fighter between Captain America and Batman is not worth having if you have to debate it for dozens of pages and [b]still not come up with a clear answer. Besides, it has already been done to death. There are decades of comic history to support either character in a debate. Clearly, there is evidence to support either Captain America or Batman (it's really up to personal opinion), and even if there were a difference (I'm not saying there is), it would be minuscule.If it comes down to debating the small differences between the characters in order to find out who would win, then right off the bat it should tell you that the characters are close enough to be practically equal. Having the overall debate itself is fine, but when people start arguing over minutia as the crux (decisive factor) of their argument on who should win is when it starts to become tired.
-Evangel94 [/B]
There is a big difference between the two. Cap is suppose to be physically superior to Batman, but yet Batman is still able to match him physically, except stamina. If you give the serum to Batman, Cap would no longer be superior to Batman in anyway at all. The difference is that Batman pushes himself a lot more harder, because he always had to. Now he going to be doing the same thing even with the serum. And it would make a lot of sense for Batman to be better with the serum. Because he already had what it takes to beat Cap. He has trained a lot harder just to be able to do the same things that the serum made so easy for Cap to do. No matter how long the fight would be, Batman will out smart him in the end. That is what Batman is a lot better at. And They are not on the same level in fighting skills at all. Just like DD's senses, the Super Solider Serum compensates for any lack of fighting skill. It's the same reason why he can adapt so fast.
Originally posted by Soljer
127 styles in ten years, or every style on Earth in six months...Cap had already mastered every form of combat by the time he was in WWII. 😉.
Cap knew Judo, Karate, and kick boxing before WW2 and for most of his life. He was frozen in a block of ice. By the time he was found. Bruce had already became Batman.
Seems like some people disagree on this. I think your right tho.
Evangel is right this type of post has been done before and to death for I was one of the ppl to debate to no end.
Anyways... Learn fighting moves faster then many many people including batman. He went into space fought some alien martial arts and became better at it then the aliens experienced users. All in a very very very short time not taskmaster fast but pretty damn fast.
I have to say that batman has a unpredictability and unorthodox use of martial arts (seems like batman supports always use tat word is it labeled on batman or soemthing ..anyway) Cap can adapt and use his equally vast knowledge of h2h combat.
I seen the lame scan of batman handing cassadra (could be wrong( a disk with 127 martial arts teaching on it. But its not like he said "i've masters everything on this disk which is 127 different types of martial arts) Its no different then me giving someone a big dictionary and saying there are a million different words in here, please learn them. Did i say i knew all these words? no
PPl did say its written in some kind of hand book to about the number of fighting styles he knows but i don't have that info. Anway the martial arts skill on both heroes would almost be equal and if there is a difference it wont be enough to significantly change the match.
I believe this is a stalemate.
I'm not sure what batman complete arsenal is for standard equip in this fight anyone care to enlighten me?
Originally posted by MarvelknightCap knew Judo, Karate, and kick boxing before WW2 and for most of his life. He was frozen in a block of ice. By the time he was found. Bruce had already became Batman.
Common misconception.
He may favor those styles, but he had been stated to have mastered every form of unarmed combat long before he was ever frozen. 🙂.
[QUOTE=10527258]Originally posted by Marvelknight
[B]There is a big difference between the two. Cap is suppose to be physically superior to Batman, but yet Batman is still able to match him physically, except stamina. If you give the serum to Batman, Cap would no longer be superior to Batman in anyway at all. The difference is that Batman pushes himself a lot more harder, because he always had to. Now he going to be doing the same thing even with the serum. And it would make a lot of sense for Batman to be better with the serum. Because he already had what it takes to beat Cap. He has trained a lot harder just to be able to do the same things that the serum made so easy for Cap to do. No matter how long the fight would be, Batman will out smart him in the end. That is what Batman is a lot better at. And They are not on the same level in fighting skills at all. Just like DD's senses, the Super Solider Serum compensates for any lack of fighting skill. It's the same reason why he can adapt so fast.
disagree very much but i don't have time to respond maybe in the afternoon laters
Originally posted by Marvelknight
You mean over 800lbs.He is now. maybe even a little better.
Know I heard something about Batman that before he became Bats he he was a scientist and made a serum sorta like SSS which increased his physical abilities to peak level which also said he could life 600lbs
Originally posted by Becci
Batman held a 1000lbs roof up at one point in the comics.He was estimated to last for, and I quote:
"A while"That was what I tried bringing up with the picture which failed utterly as the picture did not work 😛
You're talking about the rubble of the collapsed building. Yeah that was a great feat to show just how strong he is.
Originally posted by Lord Feron
[QUOTE=10527258]Originally posted by Marvelknight
[B]There is a big difference between the two. Cap is suppose to be physically superior to Batman, but yet Batman is still able to match him physically, except stamina. If you give the serum to Batman, Cap would no longer be superior to Batman in anyway at all. The difference is that Batman pushes himself a lot more harder, because he always had to. Now he going to be doing the same thing even with the serum. And it would make a lot of sense for Batman to be better with the serum. Because he already had what it takes to beat Cap. He has trained a lot harder just to be able to do the same things that the serum made so easy for Cap to do. No matter how long the fight would be, Batman will out smart him in the end. That is what Batman is a lot better at. And They are not on the same level in fighting skills at all. Just like DD's senses, the Super Solider Serum compensates for any lack of fighting skill. It's the same reason why he can adapt so fast.disagree very much but i don't have time to respond maybe in the afternoon laters
There is nothing to disagree with. Batman does match cap physically in terms of fighting, except stamina. And becuase Batman doesn't have the SSS he would need to push himself a lot harder. With it, he would act no different. He already has what it takes to beat Cap without it. What in gods name make you think that he can't with the serum?
Originally posted by Marvelknight
You're talking about the rubble of the collapsed building. Yeah that was a great feat to show just how strong he is.
😄
You are probably thinking about:
http://img101.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc278&image=d54_batbeam4.jpg
or
http://img111.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc192&image=b12_baton2.jpg
I meant:
http://img21.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc244&image=77c_bat1000.jpg
😊
Hopefully does the link work this way hmm
Originally posted by Lord Feron
I seen the lame scan of batman handing cassadra (could be wrong( a disk with 127 martial arts teaching on it. But its not like he said "i've masters everything on this disk which is 127 different types of martial arts) Its no different then me giving someone a big dictionary and saying there are a million different words in here, please learn them. Did i say i knew all these words?
Wrong. He made the disc with his own knowledge of every style on it. You don't know what you are talking about. You can't help someone master anything without being one yourself.
