Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Actually...The Misogi is a gigantic slashing chop from the sky, it incorporates instantaneous movement with the ability to slice through objects, including opponents.
The Kongou Kokuretsu Zan however, is an extremely enhanced punch into the ground, designed to destroy (Or in the case of ayers rock, slice in 2) anything beneath him.
The two attacks are very different from each other... both in effect, and in motion.
Hey. Shut up. 😱
Evidently not. Can you find a source stating this?
What the hell? I never denied this at all, I said that you were overstating the actual implication of this. Keep up.
Oh my GOD, please go and YouTube that fight right now. Go watch it right now and tell me that ISN'T swatting bullets aside. Seriously.
And furthermore how's using the word "swatting" classified as dressing things up? What is this logic?
No, once again keep up. If you read my reply above I was stating that the durability of steel (his sword) < durability of Gouki, that nulls your opint.
He's much faster than the actual human at swordplay, but watch the final battle from FFAC. He's very, very fast, just not beyond-the-eye superhuman-fast. In fact, he's not much speedier than martial artists; he simply is a lot stronger and can weird a gigantic broadsword the same way normal humans weild rapiers and sabers.
Considering that Sephiroth wasn't even able to parry more than two or three fireballs from Genesis? Also, watch the part in the Malheim fight where Sephiroth pretty much breaks off the upper part of an entire building and Cloud separates his sword into two to parry all the falling debris. Cloud's projectile parry speed is fast, but not significantly fast.
If Gouki pulled off the Level 2 super (the one with like 20 spammed air-Zankuhadokens) then he wouldn't be able to parry them all.
It's been stated with Ryu's fire-hadouken that anyone who comes into contact with it is singed badly, while on the other hand whoever comes into contact with Akuma's version "risks instant immolation".
What reasoning? Move translations? I don't even know where that came from.[quote]I believe JustFrame (I think it was) provided proof of that earlier in this thread.
Didn't cut through Kadaj's double katana, or Sephiroth's Masamune (which is a given anyway). And Wiki's are not an official source of information as it is, sorry to say.
the rest i'll debate later. GTG.
~Sado
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. I know. I am saying since he has the strength to do it, using a large sword is easier.2. Does it matter? Shin Gouki is just Gouki going all out, which according to the rules of vs. threads, he is.
What's that failing sound? It's you.
1. so? the fact is cloud parry those bullets with a six combined swords and capable to parry it. while it's easier to parry, it's harder to swing it. that's the advantage and also risk.
2. no prob.
3. so is that a kick? if so, ok. but it looks like an uppercut for me. also I still have no proof gou hadouken could kill someone. don't tell me gou hadouken and tenshou kairiki jin are two same thing. besides, cloud could cut the giant steel in half too.
Originally posted by Sado22
the akuma fans seem to confuse "a kick" with "special arts" which is by no means just a kick. like destroying mountains with "just a punch" when akuma calls it his ultimate techinique which is ki based (and a raging storm spoof).just a punch..... 😆
Unfortunately... his biggest canonicat feat> sinking the island< was just a punch... and he was weaker in Alpha 2 anyways...
Anywho, the Tenshou Kaireki Jin is a kick, just as the Tenma Kuujin Kuyaku and Tatsumaki Zanku Kuyaku are kicks...
Originally posted by Sado22
i gave you a source. now its just your word against wiki's. besides, why would they make up stuff for this particular info?
Originally posted by Sado22
for all your intelligence and maturity you seem to fall short the moment the argument gets a little tangled. calm down.
Originally posted by Sado22
you've seem to be implying that since he's swatting the bullets that its not as much of a speed feat.
Originally posted by Sado22
infact, he's been parrying some and swatting others throughout the movie. that pretty much makes his already impressive feat, all the more impressive.
Originally posted by Sado22
that whole calm down thing again.
Originally posted by Sado22
like i said, swatting makes it all the more impressive, really.
It's impressive, though not as much as if he were to use a smaller weapon.
Originally posted by Sado22
you accused me of "dressing things up". you tell me.
Originally posted by Sado22
gouk is not superman. no official source or otherwise states that can he is immune to sword attacks or blades.
Originally posted by Sado22
in fact, prior to you and dark-jaxx i've never heard of such SF folklore in all my years of research and gaming.
Originally posted by Sado22
gouki isn't "beyond-the-eye" at all.
Originally posted by Sado22
also cloud has the omnislash which IS instantaneous.
Cloud would be stupid to try to pull off the Omnislash on Gouki unless he had a gigantic opening.
Originally posted by Sado22
for one, he was standing one one of his swords cuz he was about to fall down. its logical that he takes out the other sword. what's even more logical is that once he lunges forward, he uses both swords to slash through the debri which would make sense too. why use one sword to do something when you can use two? and seriously, are trying to insinuate that although cloud can parry/swat bullets with one sword that he cant do the same with giant slow-ass debri?
Here, I'll quote myself directly.
Also, watch the part in the Malheim fight where Sephiroth pretty much breaks off the upper part of an entire building and Cloud separates his sword into two to parry all the falling debris. Cloud's projectile parry speed is fast, but not significantly fast.
I stated two facts quite clearly and plainly, with no implying whatsoever.
Originally posted by Sado22
that's a different move altogether. its not a speed feat.
I was implying that this particular move by Gouki would not be countered by Cloud's speed.
Originally posted by Sado22
source?
Originally posted by Sado22
also, i've already pointed out the fact that for all its names, ansatsuken karate seems to be able to kill only normal people. gouki hasn't really killed anyone with moves besides SGS.
All his supers possess the capability to kill from their descriptions. His physical supers slices through the opponent (messatsu goushoryu can kill "instantly" as well).
Originally posted by Sado22
gen, oro, ryu, gouken etc all fought him and walked away without even scars.
Akuma wasn't even trying on Ryu, and I doubt he and Oro were going full out on each other, seeing as it was a "simple, inconclusive battle".
Originally posted by Sado22
proof of what?
Proof that Gouki is stronger than steel.
Originally posted by Sado22
the reason why the sword wasn't cutting through kadage's blade or sephiroth's blade was because their sword's blade was equal in sharpness to cloud's. that's the idea of sword fighting.
Find me an official source, as I've said. Trying to avoid it isn't going to help you at all.
As usual, you start patronizing non-existent tempers...quite predictable, really.
No, not even close. It's a speed feat, but you're taking it a little too far in regard to the actual speed of the bullets as shown.
and exactly what are you assuming was coming out of those pistols anyway? they were gunblades and IIRC they were modified revolvers. or something along those lines.
It's a great feat, but then again he isn't using a thin sword like the masamune, is he? He's essentially relying on the massiveness of the First Tsurugi to get most of those parries through.
Read above, your so-called "debate" tactics remain fresh in my memory even now. You really haven't changed much, have you?
Normally, Sado, when someone accuses the other of dressing one thing up, it makes no sense at all to simply toss it back with the exact same accusation. You're just evading the question, that's all.
Immune to blades, maybe not, but Gouki > Steel, as JustFrame said earlier.
Ashura Warp, which is why he's intangible.
And like I said, Gouki just turns intangible (it's instantaneous, right?) and counters with Misogi while Cloud lands (he's disarmed while he lands too, by the way).
Cloud would be stupid to try to pull off the Omnislash on Gouki unless he had a gigantic opening.
I wasn't underrating Cloud or insulting any of his abilities at all, so all that is just wasted on me. Noise, in other terms. You still need to learn how to read posts in their context, I see.
Here, I'll quote myself directly.
Also, watch the part in the Malheim fight where Sephiroth pretty much breaks off the upper part of an entire building and Cloud separates his sword into two to parry all the falling debris. Cloud's projectile parry speed is fast, but not significantly fast.
Fact: Cloud separates his sword into two.
Fact: Cloud parries all the falling debris.
I stated two facts quite clearly and plainly, with no implying whatsoever.
Yeah, I never said it was. Keep up. I was implying that this particular move by Gouki would not be countered by Cloud's speed.
Tiamat's Street Fighter Plot Guide I believe. Maybe from somewhere else.
Shungokusatsu is an ansatsuken move; Gouken never taught it to his students.
All his supers possess the capability to kill from their descriptions. His physical supers slices through the opponent (messatsu goushoryu can kill "instantly" as well).
Gen was coughing up blood after, and Gouken was technically stronger than his brother at that particular time frame anyways. Akuma wasn't even trying on Ryu, and I doubt he and Oro were going full out on each other, seeing as it was a "simple, inconclusive battle".
as for Gouken, true, but even when he came back for round2, gouken wasn't killed off with one blow.
"wasn't even trying"? nope. he wasn't fighting him on the Shin-akuma level, yes, but still how much was he holding back is unknown. so your point is moot since noone here knows the exact difference between shinakuma and akuma in terms of power.
And your claim that the buster sword (or First Tsurugi, in this case) can cut through "anything" just got refuted by yourself, congrats.
the reason why the sword wasn't cutting through kadage's blade or sephiroth's blade was because their sword's blade was equal in sharpness to cloud's. that's the idea of sword fighting
Unfortunately...his biggest canonicat feat> sinking the island< was just a punch...and he was weaker in Alpha 2 anyways.
Anywho, the Tenshou Kaireki Jin is a kick, just as the Tenma Kuujin Kuyaku and Tatsumaki Zanku Kuyaku are kicks...
you don't kyo would lay out orochi with a half-assed pussyslap now do you?
~Sado
Originally posted by Sado22
i found you a source without you asking for one. and now since you've got nothing to actually back yourself up...you copout.
You've done it numerous times in "Ken Masters vs Paul Phoenix", you're doing it again now. Stop already.
Originally posted by Sado22
if you don't want me to think you're angry cut back on the caps lock, genius. capslock in online conversation express yelling, anger, frustration and annoyance.
I use it when I'm too lazy to type/click the italics to emphasize something, in the previous case exasperation at your blindness, as demonstrated above. It's really sad how you insist on dragging this topic off-track simply for the case of defending the fact that you're patronizing something that doesn't even exist. I'll continue to use capitals to emphasize as I wish, thanks.
Originally posted by Sado22
oh and saying "MY GOD" etc isn't helping your case much either.
Originally posted by Sado22
they were bullets. what do you suggest they were? pellets? just cuz you see them doesn't make them not bullets.
For spirit's sake, stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions. I acknowledged at least once or twice that they were bullets; however, you're overhyping the fact that they are bullets and attempting to use it. Just because they're bullets doesn't make them all travel at constant speed or a path.
Was it a bullet from a handgun?
Was it a bullet from a heavy revolver?
Was it a bullet from an assault rifle?
Was it a bullet from a sniper rifle?
What make was the gun?
Direction? Wind speed?
Saying that "they're bullets" means absolutely nothing to me, Sado; the circumstances do.
Originally posted by Sado22
on top of that they were materia charged which only makes them faster and stronger.
Faster? No, if anything they seemed even slower than a bullet fired from a normal handgun. Even an M68 bullet traveled faster than that.
Originally posted by Sado22
and exactly what are you assuming was coming out of those pistols anyway?
Originally posted by Sado22
they were gunblades and IIRC they were modified revolvers. or something along those lines.
Originally posted by Sado22
he's using the blade end a couple of times. infact (i saw FFAC a few years ago) but most of the time in fact i remember him using the blade end.
Originally posted by Sado22
back at ya. your copouts are as good as ever.
so is your temper😉
Seriously, every post I see:
"Now see here, Sado..."
"Copout"
"Actually, Sado..."
"Copout"
"But if you just look at this, Sado..."
"Copout"
If that isn't a poor excuse for a retort, I don't know what is. You just did it again. I keep having to push this under your nose, and judging from what I've seen from you I will likely continue to do so.
Originally posted by Sado22
you can say that to feel better. all i see is you blame me for something you're doing yourself.
Where's your proof that I've been doing more than you have?
You're avoiding the blame by putting it on someone else; in this case, myself.
Which happens to be the typical definition of a "copout". Hypocrite.
Originally posted by Sado22
refresh my memory. there is no proof of "gouki>steel"
Originally posted by Sado22
what? that's not true. that's teleportation. aint got nothing to do with speed, mang.
Originally posted by Sado22
er....gouki dies after omnislash.
Originally posted by Sado22
and not it aint instantaneous either. no proof of that. and the one time akuma teleports on-screen it took a while (Akuma SFA2 ending)
Originally posted by Sado22
and why am i thinking that misogi was only from CvsSNK2? i don't recall him doing it in anyother game. sorry but i haven't played any SF in a very long time
Originally posted by Sado22
which he wouldn't need because the move is instantaneous.
Originally posted by Sado22
Sephiroth for instance was already ready for a counter but got pwned before he knew what happened.
Originally posted by Sado22
didn't say you were insulting him. i said are you trying to suggest that cloud took out TWO swords to parry the debri.
Originally posted by Sado22
the bold parts say otherwise. why were you pointing it out unless you weren't trying to prove something. are you creating "noise"?
I'm adding those parts (which are actually relevant) in order to clarify which scene I was talking about in the first place, and describing what happened.
Originally posted by Sado22
still....not disintegration. and not by a longshot. capiche?
Originally posted by Sado22
you mean goutetsu? gouken was ryu and ken's master. not gouki's. and goutetsu did teach gouken and gouki the SGS. it was a part of anastsuken karate's course then.
Originally posted by Sado22
i know they can kill. yes. but so far, all they seem to kill are regular people.
Originally posted by Sado22
read over what i said again. these moves don't kill anyone who can actually fight.
Originally posted by Sado22
"wasn't even trying"? nope. he wasn't fighting him on the Shin-akuma level, yes, but still how much was he holding back is unknown. so your point is moot since noone here knows the exact difference between shinakuma and akuma in terms of power.
Originally posted by Sado22
if two swords are equally sharp or comparably sharp, then they wont cut through eachother. that's one of the most commonly known things about sword fighting. that's why when a ronin fought a samurai in the old days they didn't just chop through eachother's sword but instead the battles would be epic. same applied to sword fights in any part of the world in any time or era.
Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma1. What I am saying is that because he has the sufficient strength, blocking bullets is more efficient when he uses that blade.
1. so? the fact is cloud parry those bullets with a six combined swords and capable to parry it. while it's easier to parry, it's harder to swing it. that's the advantage and also risk.2. no prob.
3. so is that a kick? if so, ok. but it looks like an uppercut for me. also I still have no proof gou hadouken could kill someone. don't tell me gou hadouken and tenshou kairiki jin are two same thing. besides, cloud could cut the giant steel in half too.
2. Yeah it is, can't remember the technique name though. And Sephiroth would not be able to replicate that feat with his sword, Cloud can't either.
you didn't ask for proof, official or otherwise. i was supporting my point with a source. something you haven't done. and instead you resorted to claiming my source wasn't reliable. what we have here is you not asking for something, me saying something with a source, and then you claiming that the source isn't reliable. and then i stated that i'm going to take wiki's word over your's. infact, later on in your reply you actually agree that they are bullets. so i don't really need a source now do i?
You've done it numerous times in "Ken Masters vs Paul Phoenix", you're doing it again now. Stop already[
Yes, because you're a so-called expert on deciphering emotions, right? Not everyone uses caps lock simply because they're as you said, frustrated/yelling/anger. Suggesting such is VERY narrow minded of you.
Saying "MY GOD" in big capital letters turns me into a froth-mouthed, raging poster, right?
I use it when I'm too lazy to type/click the italics to emphasize something, in the previous case exasperation at your blindness, as demonstrated above. It's really sad how you insist on dragging this topic off-track simply for the case of defending the fact that you're patronizing something that doesn't even exist. I'll continue to use capitals to emphasize as I wish, thanks.
For spirit's sake, stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions. I acknowledged at least once or twice that they were bullets; however, you're overhyping the fact that they are bullets and attempting to use it. Just because they're bullets doesn't make them all travel at constant speed or a path.
Was it a bullet from a handgun?
Was it a bullet from a heavy revolver?
Was it a bullet from an assault rifle?
Was it a bullet from a sniper rifle?
What make was the gun?
Direction? Wind speed?
Saying that "they're bullets" means absolutely nothing to me, Sado; the circumstances do.
Seriously, every post I see:
"Now see here, Sado..."
"Copout"
"Actually, Sado..."
"Copout"
"But if you just look at this, Sado..."
"Copout"
If that isn't a poor excuse for a retort, I don't know what is. You just did it again. I keep having to push this under your nose, and judging from what I've seen from you I will likely continue to do so.
Which happens to be the typical definition of a "copout". Hypocrite.
Which explains why he is COMPLETELY invincible during the move, right? I didn't say it had to do with speed, it just makes him intangible. You can't slice nothingness and expect to do damage.
No, because it doesn't hit him. Period.
What, Misogi or Ashura Warp? Misogi is instantaneous. Ashura warp is a slow-ass teleport, but it has very fast startup. Ashura doesn't NEED to be fast, it makes him invincible for a short amount of time, just enough to let him avoid Omnislash.
Misogi was used first in CvS2, correct. Gouki had apparently learned it by that time frame.
The charge up for it isn't. As soon as Gouki sees the swords separate he'd just ashura warp through it. The man has reflexes to the point of ridiculousness, remember.
No, Sephiroth was PREPARING for a counter.
And he quite plainly did, he separated the F. Tsurugi into two to parry that debris. Also, the First Tsurugi is FAR superior as one united blade than as two different ones. Or are you denying that?
You said you haven't seen the movie in years, right? I'm adding those parts (which are actually relevant) in order to clarify which scene I was talking about in the first place, and describing what happened.
That's because for the most part Gouki has pulled them off on regular people.
And when, canonically, has he actually pulled off any other specials in the fights that he's gotten into?
No, but we do know to some extent from what gameplay offers (he has ridiculously low defence and stamina) and what he did to Ryu during that fight; remember, Gouki was taunting him and also encouraging him to embrace Satsui No Hadou. Then when Gouki decided to leave, he pretty much owned Ryu without actually hurting him (sunk the island they were on with Kongoretsu (or whatever it was called) and left. This is why I believe he wasn't even trying with Ryu; Ken was actually trying and he got owned easily by Akuma, and we know that Ryu isn't a whole world better than Ken
No, it has to do with strength of the material, not how sharp it is. Also, the First Tsurugi is more of a crushing weapon with a sharp edge. Sharpness means nothing if the material he's hacking at is stronger.
~Sado