The kotor 2 triumvirate vs rots siddious

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Wow, so Bane definatly does top Sidious in the speed department seeing as how never once in the movie (what apparantly actually happened) does sidious move even half as fast as Bane has been shown to be capable of.

That seems too farfetched to be true. Prove up please.

Windu- Was being defeated and forced back by Sidious' lightning; he would've, undoubtedly, been defeated had the attack continued.

Yoda- Had the lightsaber knocked out of his hands with a one-handed blast coming from Sidious. The same Yoda who could call upon the force for extreme enhancements in terms of strength and dexterity.

Luke- Sidious was torturing him, not trying to kill him. When he used his lightning at killing intensity, and even when it was not directed at his opponent, it destroyed Vader's life-support systems.

You've misunderstood me, what I meant was that why didn't he 'create an opening and then fry them' during their duels (Lukes one was in Dark Empire) as you seem so confident that he could do to Bane. And I mean when they where actually fighting not after a lull or anything.

Please. You cant have 'time stand still' in a movie for two old actors;

Slow Motion? Just make the surroundings look like they're moving really fast.

In addition, Sidious did move as a 'blur' during three times in the fight; the corcksew at the Jedi Masters, the spin at Mace in roughly 1:05, and the jump he performed while dodging Mace's attacks. When some CGI is used, you see, getting the 'blur' effect is very possible.

But I doubt that they could strike 3 times in an instant like Bane has been shown to do, not even at his peak.

1. Sidious vs. Kolar/Tiin/Fisto/Windu- As mentioned multiple times, Sidious massacred a team of highly formidable Jedi masters who were stated to be some of the greatest duelists in the history of the Jedi Order

The book (Rule of two) actually states that Bane would have done the same thing that Sidious did were it not for the battle meditation, only bane charged instead of corkscrewed. It says that Raskta only got out of the way 'at the last possible instant', probably due to the BM and Farfalla 'survived only becuase his reflexes were hightened by Worrors power'. So there.

Sion- WTF?
Revan- Err... possible, I suppose, but I seriously doubt it.
Tulak Hord- WTF?
Kas'im- See Revan.
The Exile- See Revan.
Bane- Possible. I highly doubt it, though, except for in force mastery, in which Bane trumps Mace; but we're talking about saber skills here.

Sion & Tulak Hord: look them up and my reasons will become apparant.

And the others are acceptable possibilities.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
But I doubt that they could strike 3 times in an instant like Bane has been shown to do, not even at his peak.

General Grievous can strike at speeds up to twenty strikes per second which kicks the utter shit out of "3 times in an instant" and he's not even Force sensitive.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
You've misunderstood me, what I meant was that why didn't he 'create an opening and then fry them' during their duels (Lukes one was in Dark Empire) as you seem so confident that he could do to Bane. And I mean when they where actually fighting not after a lull or anything.

Maybe because they're different opponents? Sidious, being arguably the most intelligent person in the history of Star Wars, will probably notice that his lightsaber blows just can't seem to do any damage to Bane; now then, when he realizes that, what will prevent him from taking advantage of the first possible opening and use his lightning- probably his best ability- to defeat Bane? As you see, the only thing that could allow Bane to survive a lightsaber duel with Sidious is his orbalisks- even Faunus said that Sidious' duelling skills were a notch above Bane's.

Also note that if Mace's superconducting loop couldn't successfully block Sidious' lightning, and Yoda's superhuman grip on his lightsaber was knocked away by a one-handed gout of lightning; why the hell do you think that Bane would be able to fair better than them? And don't give me the 'mountain of muscle' crap. Physical strength < the power of the force.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Slow Motion? Just make the surroundings look like they're moving really fast.

And then it would look like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77krXbqkbuo

As you see, BAD IDEA. And before I move on; note that in his duel with Yoda, Sidious fought far faster than he did against Mace; that's kind of inconsistency, I'd say. It was because CGI/stuntman work was used rather than Ian McDiarmid's old-person swordplay.

If I had to pick out GL's one BAD decision in the movie, I'd say that it's his choice to use Ian McDiarmid/S.L.J for the Mace/Sidious duel; had he used stuntman, it could've been significantly more pwnage.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I doubt that they could strike 3 times in an instant like Bane has been shown to do, not even at his peak.

As Gideon said, Grievous matched the same feat; 20 lightsaber strikes per second basically means four strikes per second with each lightsaber; and it so happens that Bane did less than that.

Not to mention that Sidious is significantly faster and more masterful than GG. To quote something from the RotS novel (speed-wise, it doesn't contradict the movie):

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine?"- Anakin Skywalker's thoughts.

As you can see, Sidious moved so fast he could not even be recognized by Anakin; he was recognized as a 'shadow', a 'blur of speed'.

Now then; I can give you multiple reasons why Sidious should be faster than Bane.

-Sidious is significantly older and more experienced than Bane; he possesses, basically, an incredible mastery of the force and has a very advanced knowledge of the force; in addition, as seen through him slowly draining Byss while he was on another planet entirely, it would appear that Sidious possesses a considerable level of raw power.

-Sidious, being physically inferior to Bane, would most likely select a style that focused on force-enhanced attributes; chief among these would be speed. According to Mace, in the RotS novel, Sidious seemed to fail because he dropped his speed level; as you see, it would appear Sidious is entirely reliant upon his speed in lightsaber combat. Unlike Bane, who uses Djem So and Djem So is known for its lack of mobility; as you can see, Bane uses a style that focused on physical dominance and power, while Sidious uses a style that appears to focus on speed and unpredictability, rather than brute strength; the fact of the matter is, they had different specialities; while Bane is considerably stronger than Sidious, it's logical to assume that Sidious would've enhanced his speed to the highest imaginable degree.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The book (Rule of two) actually states that Bane would have done the same thing that Sidious did were it not for the battle meditation, only bane charged instead of corkscrewed. It says that Raskta only got out of the way 'at the last possible instant', probably due to the BM and Farfalla 'survived only becuase his reflexes were hightened by Worrors power'. So there.

You'll have to prove Raskta got away only because of the BM; and it'd be great if you can actually provide the quote.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Sion & Tulak Hord: look them up and my reasons will become apparant.

Sion; could basically survive anything, but got punked by the Exile; apparently, he was dealth death blows multiple times before he succumbed to the Exile's boringly obvious mind-raping techniques. What would prevent Mace from perceiving his shatterpoint and quickly disposing of him? I doubt Sion can survive a decapacitation.

Tulak; was stated by Kreia, a very fallible character, to be uber. However, he has no actual feats to demonstrate his 'uber' power, and while I have no doubt he was formidable, I seriously doubt that he's as powerful as, say, Kas'im, who was said to be possibly the best duelist in history up until that point.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
And the others are acceptable possibilities.

You could have a case with Kas'im and with Bane; while Bane's force mastery is definetly above Mace's, Mace has displayed lightsaber combat skill to an extremely high level; he could possibly use the shatterpoint ability, making it very useful in this fight. Kas'im, meanwhile, would probably be defeated by Mace in both the force and in lightsaber combat, but it'd be a close one.

Originally posted by Gideon
General Grievous can strike at speeds up to twenty strikes per second which kicks the utter shit out of "3 times in an instant" and he's not even Force sensitive.

It was three strikes in the blink of an eye, actually, which is roughly about a fifth of a second, and the fact that nobody could even see his body move would indicate that his body would have had to have been moving at much faster speeds on top of that, making it significantly more impressive than Grievous' display of speed, and the fact that he wasn't Force Sensitive doesn't change the fact that he was nearly faster than any Force User of his time.

Also, a key point people seem to be ignoring is that the Jedi that went to arrest (note: arrest, not kill) Sidious allowed him the first move, which in turn allowed Sidious to dispatch Agen and Saesee one at a time (relying purely on his speed, making what the Jedi Masters were renowned for (their technical ability) completely irrelevant, vastly undermining the feat (which would only now be impressive if Agen and Saesee were especially powerful Force Users, which there is no proof of)) and the final two, Mace and Kit, displayed absolutely no cohesive ability whatsoever.

The Jedi that went to take out Bane, on the other hand, were the ones to make the first move, and displayed some of the most effective teamwork we've ever seen (it's likely such a thing was only possible through the power of Battle Meditation). And even then, Bane was largely dominant, and for the record Sidi-Boy, the only point in time where Raska may have appeared to be pushing Bane back was when Bane was feigning weakness in an attempt to get as close to Worror as possible so that he could quickly take him out.

hahahahaha

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
It was three strikes in the blink of an eye, actually, which is roughly about a fifth of a second, and the fact that nobody could even see his body move would indicate that his body would have had to have been moving at much faster speeds on top of that, making it significantly more impressive than Grievous' display of speed, and the fact that he wasn't Force Sensitive doesn't change the fact that he was nearly faster than any Force User of his time.

Even if what you say is true- which it isn't- then three times five would equal to be 15, and Grievous was capable of striking at 20 times per second; I simply fail to understand why you say that Bane is more impressive than anyone else.

Anyways, just to tell you something:

"Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see."

"The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see."

"Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.."

"Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them-But he could feel them in the Force."

Then you have it that even in the movies, lightsaber strikes are occasionally too fast to clearly see. See, Bane's 'faster than the eye could see' is not particularly impressive, or is it completely peerless.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Also, a key point people seem to be ignoring is that the Jedi that went to arrest (note: arrest, not kill) Sidious allowed him the first move, which in turn allowed Sidious to dispatch Agen and Saesee one at a time (relying purely on his speed, making what the Jedi Masters were renowned for (their technical ability) completely irrelevant, vastly undermining the feat (which would only now be impressive if Agen and Saesee were especially powerful Force Users, which there is no proof of)) and the final two, Mace and Kit, displayed absolutely no cohesive ability whatsoever.

This is one of your most amusing posts, Nebaris, and there have been quite a few of these.

First of all; yes, the Jedi came to arrest Sidious, but nevertheless, they were very well informed of his identity and had their lightsabers out- which means that they were very ready for a fight and very much wished to eliminate him when they actually fought. Note that they were hardly 'surprised', and Sidious actually had sufficient time to draw his lightsaber, and display it in front of them.

You're gonna have to prove that Sidious was relying purely on his speed- and even if he was, please tell me why that is not a legitimate combat technique. Also; they were called four of the best swordsman in the order's history; yes, best, not 'Most skillful', but rather overall best, which also takes into account speed, strength, and the likes; Agen Kolar was called one of the greatest bladebeings in the history of the order. Saesee was also called this; although he is probably inferior to Kit Fisto and Kolar, he was still called very skilled.

Also note that Kit Fisto was stated to be superior to Obi-Wan, one year into the clone wars, who could put up a good fight against Dooku- the same Dooku who was one of the strongest Jedi in the history of the order. Now then, Sidious WTFpwned Kit in the space of five seconds.

Then you have Mace, called one of the deadliest Jedi in history, master of 'the deadliest style', and was said to be only possibly second to Yoda, the most powerful Jedi in history up until that point, in terms of skill. Now then, you have him perfecting a style that works best against darksiders. Please, it's simply laughable that you don't think he's exceptional.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
The Jedi that went to take out Bane, on the other hand, were the ones to make the first move, and displayed some of the most effective teamwork we've ever seen (it's likely such a thing was only possible through the power of Battle Meditation). And even then, Bane was largely dominant, and for the record Sidi-Boy, the only point in time where Raska may have appeared to be pushing Bane back was when Bane was feigning weakness in an attempt to get as close to Worror as possible so that he could quickly take him out.

Prove that he was feigning weakness.

And from the two people who ganged up on him- Raskta and Farfalla- only Raskta is known to be very powerful, and even that, she is absolutely trumped by Mace. And you're gonna have to prove that Farfalla is, in any way, superior to Kit, Kolar, or Tiin.

well, here is what we know about nihilus: He force drained an entire planet.
This is what we know about luke: he knows how to block force drain, without ANY injury to himself in Jedi Academy. Until you can prove that Nihilus had a different type of force drain than the disciples of Ragnos, then i'm afraid, we have to assume, from canon sources, that Luke can deal with the drain in its entirety. Magnitude doesn't matter. While a jedi is using the "force absorb" power, any and all force attacks against a level 3 practictioner (which luke clearly is...) fail completely.

I know its weak canon, but there is no other source refuting it.

Originally posted by truejedi
well, here is what we know about nihilus: He force drained an entire planet.
This is what we know about luke: he knows how to block force drain, without ANY injury to himself in Jedi Academy. Until you can prove that Nihilus had a different type of force drain than the disciples of Ragnos, then i'm afraid, we have to assume, from canon sources, that Luke can deal with the drain in its entirety. Magnitude doesn't matter. While a jedi is using the "force absorb" power, any and all force attacks against a level 3 practictioner (which luke clearly is...) fail completely.

I know its weak canon, but there is no other source refuting it.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Even if what you say is true- which it isn't- then three times five would equal to be 15, and Grievous was capable of striking at 20 times per second; I simply fail to understand why you say that Bane is more impressive than anyone else.

Firstly, it is true. The average human can usually blink just about three times a minute (which would consist of the eyelids moving down three times and up twice). Assuming that you are the average human, you'd be able to do the same.

Secondly, did you like just skim read through my post or something?

"It was three strikes in the blink of an eye, actually, which is roughly about a fifth of a second, and the fact that nobody could even see his body move would indicate that his body would have had to have been moving at much faster speeds on top of that, making it significantly more impressive than Grievous' display of speed, and the fact that he wasn't Force Sensitive doesn't change the fact that he was nearly faster than any Force User of his time."

It was the fact that he was moving his body at such incredible speeds that the Force Sensitives around him couldn't see any of his movements, on top of how quickly he was striking his saber, that makes the display of speed so impressive, and so much more impressive than what Grievous was capable of.

Either way, exactly how many strikes he made in such a period of time shouldn't be focused on. All it says is "in the blink of an eye," no exact time is given; for all we know, the entire maneuvre could have taken place within .05 seconds. No lower class limit is given. What should be focused on however is that his movements didn't register at all to highly trained master level Force Sensitives. Nobody else has ever displayed that level of speed, yet Bane was capable of such a display where he was extremely early on in his career.

Anyways, just to tell you something:

"Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see."

"The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see."

"Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.."

"Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them-But he could feel them in the Force."

Then you have it that even in the movies, lightsaber strikes are occasionally too fast to clearly see. See, Bane's 'faster than the eye could see' is not particularly impressive, or is it completely peerless.

Did I not just go through this with you in our last debate?

It was his entire body that moved at such speeds, not just his saber. The larger the object, the easier it is to visually keep up with its movements, meaning the "mountain of muscle" that is Bane would have had to have been moving at an extraordinary speed, considering that Force Users such as Kas'im weren't at all capable of seeing his movements.

This is one of your most amusing posts, Nebaris, and there have been quite a few of these.

First of all; yes, the Jedi came to arrest Sidious, but nevertheless, they were very well informed of his identity and had their lightsabers out- which means that they were very ready for a fight and very much wished to eliminate him when they actually fought. Note that they were hardly 'surprised', and Sidious actually had sufficient time to draw his lightsaber, and display it in front of them.

Do you make pointless posts out of habit or are you actually trying to look like an idiot?

None of what you just said changes the fact that the Masters that went to arrest Sidious weren't going for the kill, they didn't make the first move, and they didn't all fight him at the same time like a real cohesive force should have been capable of, and thus allowed him to dictate the beginning of the fight. This enabled him to take out Agen and Seasee one at a time, which would have been vastly more impressive if he had done as much whilst in combat with the other Jedi at the same time.

You're gonna have to prove that Sidious was relying purely on his speed- and even if he was, please tell me why that is not a legitimate combat technique.

1. It should be quite obvious Sidi, I don't see why I should have to explain this, but whatever; all that Sidious did was move his lightsaber from point A to point B in as quick a time as he possibly could. That's it. Strength, technique, they only factor in once combat has been initiated, and blades make contact. When all you do is land a hit on a prepared opponent, without already having opened up his defence, the only attribute that factors in his how quickly you can pull the move off. That's it.

2. I didn't say that speed isn't a legitimate combat technique. My point is, that the only thing that Agen and Saesee truly have going for them in the grand scheme of things is their lightsaber prowess. However, if your opponent is simply just much faster than you, and you cannot properly react to their initial attack in time, your lightsaber prowess is quite simply worthless. It doesn't factor in. The only attributes that would help you in such a situation is your reaction timing, and speed. Both are primarily determined by Force ability, and while I won't claim that either Agen or Seasee were especially lacking in the area, the fact remains that in the grand scheme of things, they weren't anything special in that respect, and thus, Sidious' takedown of the both of them really is nowhere near as impressive as you'd like to think.

Also; they were called four of the best swordsman in the order's history; yes, best, not 'Most skillful', but rather overall best, which also takes into account speed, strength, and the likes; Agen Kolar was called one of the greatest bladebeings in the history of the order. Saesee was also called this; although he is probably inferior to Kit Fisto and Kolar, he was still called very skilled.

"Greatest" and "finest" were the exact words used actually, and how "great" or "fine" a swordsbeing is, is based purely on their prowess and nothing more. That's simply how the English Language works, when you talk about how great or fine something is, you're talking about it in its basest sense.

Also note that Kit Fisto was stated to be superior to Obi-Wan, one year into the clone wars, who could put up a good fight against Dooku- the same Dooku who was one of the strongest Jedi in the history of the order. Now then, Sidious WTFpwned Kit in the space of five seconds.

This argument is absolutely absurd. Your idiotic ABC argument only works by assuming that AotC Obi-Wan legitamately gave Dooku a hard time, when as the movie, novel, and multiple comic books show us, Dooku was basically playing around with him, exerting no energy whatsoever, and dispatched him in truly no time at all.

Then you have Mace, called one of the deadliest Jedi in history, master of 'the deadliest style', and was said to be only possibly second to Yoda, the most powerful Jedi in history up until that point, in terms of skill. Now then, you have him perfecting a style that works best against darksiders. Please, it's simply laughable that you don't think he's exceptional.

When did I ever deny that Mace Windu was exceptional? He clearly was, however, in part due to extremely poor tactics, and in part due to extremely poor teamwork, Mace really didn't do much at all in preventing Sidious from killing his team mates. However, when he did have the Sith Lord all to himself, what did he do? He kicked his ass in under a minute, and even then likely whilst limiting himself by not going for the kill against him, but rather, the capture.

Prove that he was feigning weakness.

Good lord Sidi, we all know you don't actually read the novels, but at least keep your eyes open when the relevant passages are shoved right in your face.

He spun back to the fight to see that the Echani Weapons Master had taken the offensive, sending quick flicks of her blue blades toward Bane's unprotected face-the only spot on his body seemingly not covered by the impenetrable shells. Remarkably, Bane was giving ground.

"Stay back!" she shouted at Farfalla. "You'll just get in the way."

Farfalla did as he was told, gathering the energies of the light side to throw up another protective Force barrier should Bane try to unleash his dark side powers against the Echani.

She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought.

Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta's blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room.

It's made quite clear that it only appeared as if Raska was pushing Bane back, when in reality, he was allowing it so that he could get closer and closer to Worror, in order to take the Ithorian out.

And from the two people who ganged up on him- Raskta and Farfalla- only Raskta is known to be very powerful,

Farfalla was clearly extremely very powerful as well.

As Exodus pointed out, he had been in almost every major conflict during the war, and as Faunus pointed out, his form was labelled "perfect." He's clearly received tonnes of battle experience, is an absolute master of his form, and given that he was chosen to lead the Army of Light after Hoth's inevitable death, he was clearly one of the more powerful Jedi of his time (and contrary to your assertions that Jedi titles aren't indicative of power, they are in times of absolute war. Jedi weren't peace keepers in those days, but warriors, and as a leader, you're expected to lead by example, meaning that only the most powerful of Jedi would logically be put into leadership roles, so as to inspire the rest of the Order).

And finally, taking into account that he was being powered heavily by battle meditation, and that he and Raska were fighting with absolute cohesion, playing to each other's individual strengths, combining their defences together and such, he was clearly one hell of an opponent under the circumstances.

and even that, she is absolutely trumped by Mace.

Some proof would be nice. Fact of the matter is, Jedi in those days were trained purely for one thing: to fight the Sith (it's what happens after having been fighting an enemy for an entire millenium), and that's exactly what they did: they went into war, and would fight on a near day-to-day basis. In terms of battle experience and training, The Army of Light quite simply were the greatest Order of Jedi there have ever been, and Raska just so happened to be considered the Army's greatest swordsbeing. Her rep alone implies that she was at least on par with someone like Mace Windu, and the fact that she was being empowered considerably by Batlle meditation, and acting in near perfect cohesion with another exceptional Jedi Master would have made her all the more powerful. In fact, under the circumstances, I see no reason to believe that she would have been anything but slightly less powerful than Mace at the worst case scenario... and Bane fared far better against both her and Farfalla than Palpatine did against just Mace Windu, and had already basically displayed as much ability as Palpatine did when he took out Agen and Seasee, by being able to almost do even better (actually trample them, something that lacks range, and thus would require greater speed) against actual ready opponents, and would have succeded if not for them being empowered by Battle meditation.

And you're gonna have to prove that Farfalla is, in any way, superior to Kit, Kolar, or Tiin.

Under the circumstances, he logically would have been. Far greater battle experience (specific to Sith), far more combat orientated training, "perfect" form, one of the most powerful Jedi of a logically more powerful Order, and empowered considerably by Battle Meditation, and fighting considerably well as a team with an even more exceptional Jedi.

Originally posted by truejedi
well, here is what we know about nihilus: He force drained an entire planet.
This is what we know about luke: he knows how to block force drain, without ANY injury to himself in Jedi Academy. Until you can prove that Nihilus had a different type of force drain than the disciples of Ragnos, then i'm afraid, we have to assume, from canon sources, that Luke can deal with the drain in its entirety. Magnitude doesn't matter. While a jedi is using the "force absorb" power, any and all force attacks against a level 3 practictioner (which luke clearly is...) fail completely.

I know its weak canon, but there is no other source refuting it.

No, it's not canon, period. N-Canon Gameplay mechanics don't need to be refuted to not be treated as fact, and the fact of the matter is that "Level 3 Force absorb practitioners" would never get overpowered by Force attacks in ready positions if what you're proposing is the case, yet it's happened numerous times. Really, this is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard on this forum, had you been out drinking before you made this post or something?

Sion & Tulak Hord: look them up and my reasons will become apparant.

And the others are acceptable possibilities. [/B]

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Firstly, it is true. The average human can usually blink just about three times a minute (which would consist of the eyelids moving down three times and up twice). Assuming that you are the average human, you'd be able to do the same.

You stated 'five times'. Now then, you say 'three' times; which is far more realistic, and would still place Bane's amount of strikes- supposedly 3 an eye blink- at 9 strikes per second. Grievous did more than double that amount, and all he was is a a particularly uber droid.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
"It was three strikes in the blink of an eye, actually, which is roughly about a fifth of a second, [b]and the fact that nobody could even see his body move would indicate that his body would have had to have been moving at much faster speeds on top of that, making it significantly more impressive than Grievous' display of speed, and the fact that he wasn't Force Sensitive doesn't change the fact that he was nearly faster than any Force User of his time."

It was the fact that he was moving his body at such incredible speeds that the Force Sensitives around him couldn't see any of his movements, on top of how quickly he was striking his saber, that makes the display of speed so impressive, and so much more impressive than what Grievous was capable of.[/B]

Lol. In the heat of his duel with Mace, Sidious was described as a 'shadow', a 'blur of speed', impossible to see from Anakin's point of view; as you see, he at least matches Bane in that area. Just because you're totally infatuated with Bane doesn't make his feats considerably greater than anyone's else- and guess what? THEY AREN'T.

Also, note that in actual combat, the speed of your strikes, not necessarily the speed of your movement, is what really matters; and Bane couldn't even match Grievous in this category.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Either way, exactly how many strikes he made in such a period of time shouldn't be focused on. All it says is "in the blink of an eye," no exact time is given; for all we know, the entire maneuvre could have taken place within .05 seconds. No lower class limit is given. What should be focused on however is that his movements didn't register at all to highly trained master level Force Sensitives. Nobody else has ever displayed that level of speed, yet Bane was capable of such a display where he was extremely early on in his career.

Sidious- blur of speed, a mere 'shadow', capable of moving beyond what Leia could even hope to perceive, and force sensitivity does not grant you increased eye sight- as much, as you like it, Sidious matched Bane in this category, if not surpassed him.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Did I not just go through this with you in our last debate?

It was his entire body that moved at such speeds, not just his saber. The larger the object, the easier it is to visually keep up with its movements, meaning the "mountain of muscle" that is Bane would have had to have been moving at an extraordinary speed, considering that Force Users such as Kas'im weren't at all capable of seeing his movements.

And as you see, Sidious moved at the same speeds; and in actual combat, what do you think matters more? The speed of your charges at the opponent, or rather the speed of your attacks?

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Do you make pointless posts out of habit or are you actually trying to look like an idiot?

None of what you just said changes the fact that the Masters that went to arrest Sidious weren't going for the kill, they didn't make the first move, and they didn't all fight him at the same time like a real cohesive force should have been capable of, and thus allowed him to dictate the beginning of the fight. This enabled him to take out Agen and Seasee one at a time, which would have been vastly more impressive if he had done as much whilst in combat with the other Jedi at the same time.

Wonderful. The fact of the matter is- they were all highly trained swordsmen and were called some of the best swordsbeings in the history of the friggin' Jedi Order- the history of the Jedi Order, incidentally, also includes the Army of Light. They should have been able to perceive Sidious' intentions with the force and detect his movements; of course they allowed him to make the first move, giving him ample time to actual display his lightsaber in front of them. They were all fine and powerful swordsman; sure, he was significantly faster than them, but the fact of the matter his, his skill and speed were simply too much for them. Yes, these Jedi, who are considered to be highly powerful, were absolutely curbstomped by Sidious in combat.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
1. It should be quite obvious Sidi, I don't see why I should have to explain this, but whatever; all that Sidious did was move his lightsaber from point A to point B in as quick a time as he possibly could. That's it. Strength, technique, they only factor in once combat has been initiated, and blades make contact. When all you do is land a hit on a prepared opponent, without already having opened up his defence, the only attribute that factors in his how quickly you can pull the move off. That's it.

Err... yeah, he decided where to strike them in the absolute fastest, most unpredictable manner; as you see, Sidious was a 'master of every weapon and every form', and thus had the ability to constantly change the flow of his attacks; his speed and unpredictability simply overwhelmed the Jedi. Of course it's also a display of technical skill; actually being able to launch a sufficiently unpredictable strike that was beyond the ability of highly trained swordsman to block is an indication of a high level of swordsmanship.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
2. I didn't say that speed isn't a legitimate combat technique. My point is, that the only thing that Agen and Saesee truly have going for them in the grand scheme of things is their lightsaber prowess. However, if your opponent is simply just much faster than you, and you cannot properly react to their initial attack in time, your lightsaber prowess is quite simply worthless. It doesn't factor in. The only attributes that would help you in such a situation is your reaction timing, and speed. Both are primarily determined by Force ability, and while I won't claim that either Agen or Seasee were especially lacking in the area, the fact remains that in the grand scheme of things, they weren't anything special in that respect, and thus, Sidious' takedown of the both of them really is nowhere near as impressive as you'd like to think.

As much as you to pretend it is not so, swordsmanship is not just about technical skill- their legendary lightsaber abilities were note just about how 'skillful' they were, but rather how good they were in terms of overall swordsmanship; and part of fighting with a lightsaber is sensing your opponent and being capable of handling his speed and unpredictability. They failed; Sidious absolutely curbstomped them in both saber abilities and his force-enhanced physical powers. It's nowhere not as impressive as you think.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
This argument is absolutely absurd. Your idiotic ABC argument only works by assuming that AotC Obi-Wan legitamately gave Dooku a hard time, when as the movie, novel, and multiple comic books show us, Dooku was basically playing around with him, exerting no energy whatsoever, and dispatched him in truly no time at all.

Lol. Of course he owned AotC Obi-Wan; but let's face the truth. Obi-Wan was an obstacle in his path to getting away. Dooku had perfect knowledge of the fact that he had to get away as quickly as possible. Having incapacitated Anakin, he most likely would do his best to get away as soon as possible. Unless he's a complete moron- which he's not- he should have done his best to kill Obi-Wan as fast as possible.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
When did I ever deny that Mace Windu was exceptional? He clearly was, however, in part due to extremely poor tactics, and in part due to extremely poor teamwork, Mace really didn't do much at all in preventing Sidious from killing his team mates. However, when he did have the Sith Lord all to himself, what did he do? He kicked his ass in under a minute, and even then likely whilst limiting himself by not going for the kill against him, but rather, the capture.

According to Anakin, "There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace was cutting loose" in his duel against Sidious, which would mean that Mace let go of his Jedi teachings and do his best to kill Sidious; yes, kill Sidious.

Also, how exactly did they use extremely poor tactics? Or poor teamwork? Sidious simply overwhelmed them with his speed and unpredictability; Mace could do little to prevent the death of his comrades. Of course, he went in for the kill pretty quick, but Sidious blocked it and engaged him and Kit Fisto in combat. Sidious promptly WTFpwned Kit and proceeded to force him back.

Right then. If we ignore the possibility that Sidious lost the duel intentionally, then you'll have to take into account that the only way Mace could even match Sidious was by copying Sidious' speed and hatred via Vaapad's special abilities. Without it; say, if Sidious had all of his abilities, but was a lightsider- then Mace would've been subsequently crushed in lightsaber combat. Even with that, Mace could not overpower Sidious in combat and was being overwhelmed, as indicated by his facial expressions on the ledge; the only way he could gain the upper hand was via his shatterpoint ability. And it so happens that Bane doesn't have either shatterpoint or Vaapad; if he was to engage Mace in lightsaber combat, Mace would most likely defeat Bane.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Good lord Sidi, we all know you don't actually read the novels, but at least keep your eyes open when the relevant passages are shoved right in your face.

He spun back to the fight to see that the Echani Weapons Master had taken the offensive, sending quick flicks of her blue blades toward Bane's unprotected face-the only spot on his body seemingly not covered by the impenetrable shells. Remarkably, Bane was giving ground.

"Stay back!" she shouted at Farfalla. "You'll just get in the way."

Farfalla did as he was told, gathering the energies of the light side to throw up another protective Force barrier should Bane try to unleash his dark side powers against the Echani.

She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor [b]... or so Farfalla thought.

Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta's blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room.

It's made quite clear that it only appeared as if Raska was pushing Bane back, when in reality, he was allowing it so that he could get closer and closer to Worror, in order to take the Ithorian out.[/b]

While the fact that he was being forced back intentionally can be implied, there are multiple ways to interpret that passage. My personal interpretation is that Raskta was overwhelming him, and realizing that Worror was empowering her, he quickly made for him to eliminate him, thus reducing Raskta's advantage in combat. Also, 'or so Farfalla thought'- it's possible that while Raskta might've gained a genuine advantage over him, but he realized its reason and thus went to kill Worror.

Also- I'm not saying that Raskta, on even ground, is capable of achieving victory over Bane.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Farfalla was clearly extremely very powerful as well.

'Extremely very?'

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
As Exodus pointed out, he had been in almost every major conflict during the war, and as Faunus pointed out, his form was labelled "perfect." He's clearly received tonnes of battle experience, is an absolute master of his form, and given that he was chosen to lead the Army of Light after Hoth's inevitable death, he was clearly one of the more powerful Jedi of his time (and contrary to your assertions that Jedi titles aren't indicative of power, they are in times of absolute war. Jedi weren't peace keepers in those days, but warriors, and as a leader, you're expected to lead by example, meaning that only the most powerful of Jedi would logically be put into leadership roles, so as to inspire the rest of the Order).

And finally, taking into account that he was being powered heavily by battle meditation, and that he and Raska were fighting with absolute cohesion, playing to each other's individual strengths, combining their defences together and such, he was clearly one hell of an opponent under the circumstances.

Kit, Saesee, and Kolar were also called some of the best swordsmen in the history of the Order, and were just involved in the single most destructive conflict in history up until that point; they all gained plenty of experience, and it so happens that over the time, the Jedi would logically improve and further study, develop their techniques and all; Farfalla, while probably powerful, was not likely as powerful as Mace's team.

Of course, the BM can be taken into account; and while Farfalla's form was called 'perfect', it's likely that this BM doesn't increase one's technical ability, but rather their speed, reflexes, and strength; of course it made him more formidable, but a simple, ordinary BM won't nearly be enough to empower someone to an ability that he can clearly surpass his superiors.

You're going to have to prove to me that Mace's team was not well-coordinated or had plenty of teamwork, as they had functioned before as a team and likely sparred together; Sidious simply overwhelmed them. With relative ease. No amount of teamwork could allow them to overcome Sidious' vast superiority over all of them save for Mace.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Some proof would be nice. Fact of the matter is, Jedi in those days were trained purely for one thing: to fight the Sith (it's what happens after having been fighting an enemy for an entire millenium), and that's exactly what they did: they went into war, and would fight on a near day-to-day basis. In terms of battle experience and training, The Army of Light quite simply were the greatest Order of Jedi there have ever been, and Raska just so happened to be considered the Army's greatest swordsbeing. Her rep alone implies that she was at least on par with someone like Mace Windu, and the fact that she was being empowered considerably by Batlle meditation, and acting in near perfect cohesion with another exceptional Jedi Master would have made her all the more powerful. In fact, under the circumstances, I see no reason to believe that she would have been anything but slightly less powerful than Mace at the worst case scenario... and Bane fared far better against both her and Farfalla than Palpatine did against just Mace Windu, and had already basically displayed as much ability as Palpatine did when he took out Agen and Seasee, by being able to almost do even better (actually trample them, something that lacks range, and thus would require greater speed) against actual ready opponents, and would have succeded if not for them being empowered by Battle meditation.

Huh? Sure, Raskta had her 'rep', but Mace was capable of decimating massive armies of battle droids- actually super battle droids- with his bare hands. He was called one of the deadliest Jedi in history, and was the only known master of the form that was called the deadliest; it also happens that the same form allowed him to reflect the attributes of a dark sider back at him. He was also in possession of more experience than Raskta, more knowledge, more respect- as attributed by his senior position on the council and his legendary reputation- and also has possession of the shatterpoint ability. Yeah, he's far more formidable than Raskta.

I don't get it. Kit is stronger than Farfalla, Mace is stronger than Raskta; and Sidious still performed much better against them- and they are likely to be a coordinated team- than Bane did against Farfalla and Raskta. While it's true that Sidious was defeated by Mace, you'll have to take into account the circumstance that enabled Mace to win and the fact that Sidious was forcing him back and almost overwhelming him the entire time; Raskta and Farfalla, meanwhile, overwhelmed Bane and prevented him from launching a sufficiently good counter-offensive.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Unless he's a complete moron- which he's not- he should have done his best to kill Obi-Wan as fast as possible.

Absolutely not, as Kenobi himself would later muse in Labyrinth of Evil, Count Dooku acted in a manner that suggested that he wanted to remain on Geonosis a little longer, to demonstrate his "superiority" to the Jedi. Dooku was screwing around with Obi-Wan the entire time; the only time Dooku had to work for his win was when Anakin attacked him the second time on Geonosis.