The kotor 2 triumvirate vs rots siddious

Missed this yesterday:

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Traya's precognition was also matched by Sidious, whose had a very remarkable precognition capability.

And you need to validate this statement. Traya managed to forsee the death of Jango Fett at the hands of Mace Windu. What's Sidious done to match that?

(but in the novel, which is based on Lucas' initial perception of the fight, Sidious scored all of his killing blows with strikes to the head, Bane's vulnerable part),

I'll get to the rest later.

Originally posted by Faunus
Missed this yesterday:
Well, would you look at that. I'm psychic.

And you need to validate this statement. Traya managed to forsee the death of Jango Fett at the hands of Mace Windu. What's Sidious done to match that?

Traya was not exactly clear of the EXACT causes of death; of course, she said that the last Mandalorian would be killed by a Jedi, but she didn't exactly explicitly list the circumstance- as such, there's a possibility she only got a glimpse into what happened. Also note that Sidious was perfectly certain of his plans at all times, and although he never displayed precognition on that level, his short-range precognition appears to be as good as Traya's. Long-range precognition will not matter in an actual fight.

Originally posted by Faunus
He killed one enemy in actual combat with a strike to the head; Kit Fisto, who has nothing on Bane. And Lucas' "original intentions" don't really matter, although that version was a hell of a lot better than the garbage we got in the movie.

I'll get to the rest later.

Saesee Tiin, in the novel, was beheaded. Kolar was stabbed in the head. Kit Fisto was behead. And I hardly see the movie version as 'crap', it was good, but some disappointing things- like Mace's speed and Sidious' weird performance on the ledge- made it ultimately inferior to the novel.

George Lucas scrapped the idea because he believed it to be too violent. Also, it's irrelevant, but it does show that Lucas envisioned Sidious to have a penchant for head-level attacks. As Sidious' lightsaber skills at the very least matched Bane's (remember, his multi-combatant fight was with people who I doubt were much stronger than Kit Fisto level, and he would've been killed by the battlemaster if it wasn't for his armor), I don't see why Sidious couldn't simply strike Bane to the head or to the wrist and finish this. But w/e, this isn't a Sidious vs. RoT Bane thread...

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Traya was not exactly clear of the EXACT causes of death; of course, she said that the last Mandalorian would be killed by a Jedi, but she didn't exactly explicitly list the circumstance- as such, there's a possibility she only got a glimpse into what happened.

Also note that Sidious was perfectly certain of his plans at all times, and although he never displayed precognition on that level, his short-range precognition appears to be as good as Traya's. Long-range precognition will not matter in an actual fight.

lol

Saesee Tiin, in the novel, was beheaded. Kolar was stabbed in the head. Kit Fisto was behead.

And I hardly see the movie version as 'crap', it was good, but some disappointing things- like Mace's speed and Sidious' weird performance on the ledge- made it ultimately inferior to the novel.

As Sidious' lightsaber skills at the very least matched Bane's

(remember, his multi-combatant fight was with people who I doubt were much stronger than Kit Fisto level,

Raskta was the best duelist in the Order, bar none, and Farfalla ascended to the head of the Army of Light after Hoth's death. Both in the most militant era in Jedi history. Johun was utter garbage, but the battlemaster managed even to use his style to her advantage. And, they were being boosted considerably by Worror's powerful battle meditation.

and he would've been killed by the battlemaster if it wasn't for his armor),

Bane's fighting style evolved around his armor; he uses it to his advantage in every way, allowing him to focus completely on the offense while blocking any strikes with his body. Which is why he's practically unstoppable in personal combat, bar a few select characters in the SW saga.

I don't see why Sidious couldn't simply strike Bane to the head or to the wrist and finish this.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Lol, so YOU'RE this "Noobaris"? The guy who was called the biggest Bane fanboy in history? Well... it makes perfect sense now...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No..

Rofl. Cause you don't want it to be canon, it ISN'T canon? Lol.

Rofl. Strawman? Lol.

That's completely pathetic.

You're right; that was.

The NEC was written by some of the best informed and best sponsored historians in the history of the galaxy; I'm pretty sure that they were quite well-informed.

I'm sure they were as well, but being "quite well-informed" doesn't make their opinion factual, hence you looking like a fool every time you try to treat it as such.

Unless some of the information in the NEC DIRECTLY contradicts established canon, it should be taken as C-Canon. And nothing contradicts Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord.

By that logic, you can look through any relatively accurate real world encyclopedia, pick out any blanket statement that's subjective by nature inside, and claim it to be a fact, simply because no already established fact disagrees with it.

As Faunus was saying, do you actually enjoy using third-rate logic?

In Dark Empire, it was clearly stated that Sidious, the most powerful wielder of the dark side in history, had rose from the grave.

No, it's not. I've read DE, as has nearly everybody here, and if I had somehow magically missed something as significant out (I didn't), it's pretty clear that at least one of the pro Sidious "faction" would have made such an observation.

Either way, pretending that we all did fail to spot such a key point, provide an exact quote, and page number, or quit being so persistently idiotic.

Now then- this calling Sidious the most powerful would use the Sidious from BEFORE DE; unless you can prove ROTJ Sidious was a lot more powerful than ROTS Sidious, your argument fails.

You're in no position to shift the burden of proof. Pretending that such a quote does exist, the burden of proof falls on you to prove that RotS Sidious is just as powerful as the exact incarnation that the statement would be referring to.

I'm pretty confident that the Visual Dictionary directly stated Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord, but I might be incorrect.

You are.

"Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."- New Essential Chronology

Is that enough for you?

Moron, much? I was quite clearly asking for a quote for the supposed Dark Empire statement.

I don't possess the plethora of quotes and canon sources that you people do, merely the knowledge of them, but I'm confident several people here can provide other quotes.

In other words, you're basing your entire argument off of hearsay. Smart.

Also, use your logic.

Please explain how "[my] logic" has any relevance whatsoever on the argument that follows this statement.

Yoda is stated by the ROTS novel to be the greatest Jedi in history;

Most devastatingly powerful foe of the darkness, actually, which Yoda having been in a position to fight against it for centuries could most certainly have a lot to do with.

As I was saying, when you measure how devastatingly powerful someone is towards something, the length of time they would be in a position to work against it has everything to do with how devastating they might be towards it.

Either way, it's your burden of proof, so prove that the statement definitively fits your exact definition, and that definition alone, or drop the point.

logically, if Sidious could beat him/stalemate him (depends on how you view the fight), wouldn't it make Sidious the greatest dark side wielder in history? Unless the difference between Jedi and Sith is so huge.

Bingo.

Then you are mistaken. Bane > Nihilus in almost all aspects, other than the part about Nihilus draining a planet;

Good Lord you're dense. Refer to Faunus's Maul/Sidious/Force Push analogy; your logic fails.

You're narrowing everything down to each individual ability, and then comparing character X and Y through their demonstrations of each individual ability alone, and it's quite frankly stupid. It's exactly like how True Jedi was making an argument for Obi-Wan being the number one long jumper in the Star Wars Olympics.

something that is very, very unknown to the mythos,

Which is exactly why it makes Nihilus that powerful. You don't simply look at what he does, and think, wow, that guy's got some awesome draining skills. You look at what he does, and determine what kind of level of power and mastery such an action would demand, and it puts him far above Sidious with his street level lightning.

the only quote that describes it is the so-called 'fallible character',

Said fallible character was present at the time, was able to see the direct effect of Nihilus' drain through the Force, and was shown to be directing her speech to the audience, which within the medium of comics, is a method the writers use to convey what is factually the case, using a character as the mouth piece, for added effect.

who was incidentally Nihilus' apprentice and in extreme awe of his power.

For a reason.

And being in extreme awe of his power isn't something that would put her in denial, or cause her to mentally distort facts.

It could be that the Jedi were drained over time, the screams beginning as they got drained slowly... it happens.

Or more like as the comic shows us.

As mentiond above, the fact that Bane had successfully created a holocron via sub-atomic manipulation does not mean Sidious could not do the same. He also happened to create a holocron himself.

As I explained to Styles, nothing indicates that such an action was vital in the creation of holocrons, and as it stands, Sidious hasn't displayed anything that would indicate that his level of Force Mastery compares.

You could bring up his greater experience, but that could just as easily be countered by bringing up evidence of Bane's insane learning rate.

Or, could you please prove to me exactly how the sub-atomic manipulations came into display in combat? Thank you.

As Faunus stated, it's a demonstration of Force mastery, and would indicate that in a versus scenario, even when up against people who have displayed more power, he would likely be able to focus his powers more efficiently.

False. Now, other than the Byss Drain- and you are correct about the fact that like Nihilus', few details are known about it-

Meaning you were wrong, yeah.

Sidious did manage the capacity to perform the impressive ritual.

Are you confusing what he does in Sithisis with his Byss [and its inhabitants] drain, or did you mean to say "another impressive ritual" or "an impressive ritual" rather than "the impressive ritual?" Because the wording makes little sense.

There is absolutely nothing saying that the Ancient Sith directly intervened in it;

However their appearance there is suspect at the very least, and I was right in saying what I did in so much as the burden of proof is on you, and you lack the proof that would suggest otherwise.

it was also possible they were merely observing in approval. There is no way to prove that they were helping.

Your burden of proof, not mine, and as was said, he also relied on the focusing crystal, which is no less than what Sadow used to make a Sun go nova.

Also note that this little ritual seen in Sithisis was possibly the most impressive Dark Side ritual ever seen, as it unleashed lightning storms ALL over Coruscant, and enveloped the whole planet in the shroud of the dark side, even disturbing Yoda, who was the greatest presence of the light in history, save for the later NJO Luke, and driving Anakin into a complete berserker rage simply due to triggering the small dark side presence within him. The effected the planet of a very 'planetary' level, and was used by ROTS Sidious.

No indication that the entirety of the Planet is given, so that's an unsupported assumption there on your part, and for your laughable assertion that it was possibly the most impressive Dark Side ritual ever seen, see Faunus' post (take note also that, and as I just said, the only "technology" that Sadow was required was Sith focusing crystals, no more than what Sidious required).

If we're arguing capacity to wield the dark side, as Bane hardly performed the ritual on his own,

He absorbed the energy through all different parts of his body on his own, contained it all on his own (while protecting himself from it internally), and reached out through the Force and redirected it across the Planet's surface, again, on his own. Nothing Sidious has ever done even remotely compares in terms of demonstrated power.

then let me tell you something; Sidious' dark side presence was sufficient to completely scar him and ravage his mortal frame, to the greatest extent the usage of the dark side had upon someone.

Later, during DE, when one of the clones wielding the same power as ROTS Sidious was literally decaying due to the presence of the immensely strong power of the dark side. As Sidious himself stated; "Flesh does not easily support this great power".

1. That it had a greater effect on Sidious' body than any before him begs for proof.

2. Even if that was the case, you act as if that somehow translates into his darkside presence being more powerful than that of any before him, when there would logically be many other factors involved, such as:

A) How physically condition the mortal body is.

B) The control one had over their power.

C) Their willpower.

D) For how long they had been using the darkside for, and to what extent.

The effect that the dark side had on his body could just as easily be attributed to a lack of control, willpower, (in comparison) or the negative side of any of the above factors just as much as how powerful his dark side presence is, ergo, you have no argument.

3. You do realise, of course, that this is no way applies to beings who don't possess living bodies (Nihilus, and Andeddu, and arguably Sion and Simus as well), and likely to Orbalisk Bane as well given how the orbalisks constantly rejuvenated his body, and possibly to any Force User who used the Force to preserve or strengthen their bodies or were able to counteract the dark side's negative effects on their bodies through other means.

Also note that Sidious is, at certain times, implied to be a so-called 'black hole in the force',

Unsubstantiated hyperbole?

his extensive, sheer power in the dark side causing the dark side to grow in the galaxy,

That had actually been happening ever since the Ro2 had been put into place, likely due to the fact that the dark side was being concentrated to a far greater degree than ever before.

enclouding the vision of the Jedi, weakening them, increasing the power of the dark side; although the disturbance could be seen and felt by the Jedi, none could ever sense that it was in fact Sidious; Sidious shrouded himself in the dark side aura that blinded the strongest of Jedi. I'd like to see Bane, Nihilus, Traya, or w/e replicate that.

Feat Wars?

Clearly such an action isn't fully testament to personal power from a combat standpoint, otherwise the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu (who were as vulnerable to Sidious' powers as anyone within the Order) wouldn't have been the fair matches for him that they were.

Then maybe Nihilus drained them one-by-one? How about that?

As has been established, no.

It fails. Sidious was likely slowly leeching the life out of them, in order to prolong his vitality.

Which is exactly what makes the feat pail in comparison to the quick destruction of the inhabitants of Katarr.

Visas Marr was a FALLIBLE in-universe character, and it so happens that she was in a comlpete awe of Nihilus, being as apprentice and fearing him to an incredible extent. As such, she cannot be used as a completely reliable source, at least much less so than the 'non-canon' NEC. Selective choosings of what is canon, I see.

I've already covered this.

By that logic, Sidious is far more powerful than Yoda, as he successfully hurled his lightsaber away from his grip and nearly overpowered him with a force lightning attack.

The difference is, the lightning made contact with Yoda's lightsaber first (which did nothing to reduce the amount of the lightning), and then his Force defence.

The Force Shield (which has always been a basic ability), as Ro2 shows us, counteracts with the lightning before any physical contact is made, reduces its amount, and if any gets through, it still has to get past the Jedi/Sith's lightsaber, and it's something that any Force User would be able to conjure up, as long as they're in a ready position (and the rules of these threads would dictate that all combatants be in a ready position for the start of the fight at the very least).

Sion and Nihilus AREN'T the strongest of the group; Traya would comfortably beat Sion, but Nihilus would rape her in the force.

All entirely subjective, and either way, in no way detracts from my overall argument.

Sidious' force lightning was used to such a potency that it was capable of reducing people to ashes, destroy massive amounts of people (You can go on and rant about Bane being able to do that, but I'd like to see you prove it),

Faunus already covered this, and while you think you may have countered his point, apparently you weren't able to quite grasp the fact that lightning is lightning: lethal by nature, and that you can't prove that the potency of the lightning he used against the stormtroopers was any greater than that used by Bane on one of his first attempts, meaning that scale is the only thing that can be compared, and it's something that was greater on Bane's part.

while all something like Bane's lightning could do was get deflected back to him by a second-class Jedi and almost be killed.

1. Worror, while not a combat orientated Jedi, was far from being second-class; it's made explicitly clear that he was a very powerful Jedi, and that he was a major player in the war.

2. He was described as "releasing his own power" when he conjured up the blue orb, a kamikaze type attack if you will, making it the most potent defencive manoeuvre we've ever seen in Star Wars.

3. Pretending that Worror's defencive orb really wasn't that powerful, you would only have a point if we had evidence that Bane's lightning attack was the upper limit of his power, when it's likely that it wasn't, considering:

a) It was at the end of an extremely long battle, and Bane would have likely been too exhausted to use all of his power at that point.

b) Bane believed everyone to be dead, with the exception of the weakest of the group, who at the time was missing an arm, and basically lying on the floor, powerless against him. From his perspective, there wouldn't have been a necessity to use that much power, so why would he? It was most likely a final casual effort to finish a battle that he had basically already won.

Sidious' lightning was extremely potent. As Sion never used the force, and Nihilus/Traya chose to focus on drain, it can be safely assumed that their lightning is no where near as strong as Sidious', as it was his preferred force power.

The fact that it was his preferred power doesn't change the fact that, by virtue of overall demonstration, we've seen far more from the likes of the Triumvirate that would indicate that their overall Force ability was much greater than his, and that's something that would be applicable through lightning, or any other technique in their arsenal.

And he was the strongest Sith Lord in history, despite the fact that you clearly choose to ignore it.

No, I just don't take subjective opinions stated as facts by in-universe characters to be gospel.

The ROTS novel proved that Sidious was overpowering Windu, and that Windu even admitted to be incapable of defeating Sidious. Now then, Sidious suddenly stopped the attack... why? Maybe because Anakin doesn't need to see his just master be fried to ashes by his mentor?

Or maybe because he was too exhausted to continue? As I said, the burden of proof's on you, so bring proof to the table, or go home.

They would see them, and I believe Sidious spoke to them...

I don't believe they did. Either way, even if they had seen him, or they had spoken to him, that alone wouldn't amount to anything unless you could provide evidence that would suggest that they would have perceived him as a threat.

note that as they were powerful users of the dark side, and should be capable of deflecting a dark side attack. But nontheless, they WEREN'T capable of it. And I think that they would all be far better defended against the Dark Side than the Masters Traya pwned.

Given that these were some of the most powerful Jedi of their time (who had access to Sith Holocrons, and had fought in wars against darksiders in the past), and that these darksiders haven't displayed anything that relates to personal power, and that they were basically all non-combat orientated seers, it's doubtful.

And again, you haven't even provided any evidence that would suggest that these acolytes had put up a defence before Sidious confronted them anyway.

Then going by this logic, any ritualistic usage of the dark side is not an indication of powerful usage of the force.

Which is usually the case. Doing something in an organised manner would usually imply that you're not capable of doing it in less time, or without going through certain steps, and in some cases, relying on the use of external objects or sacrifices and such.

The fact remains that what these acolytes did exactly is completely undefined, and as such, you can't really get much out of it; certainly not enough to claim that they would have been especially better ready to defend against Force attacks, and that's assuming that they even applied a defence in the first place.

Please. Don't give me that crap; it would require extreme power to be capable of animating a Sith Lord, nevermind someone as powerful as Maul, something no one else seemed to be able to do.

Prove it.

Then prove that ROTS Sidious > 10 years older Sidious.

Burden of proof fallacy.

Bane's lightning got deflected back to him by a second-rate Jedi. Not that impressive, is it?

Already dealt with.

It took him about 3 seconds to summon it against DE Luke;

Firstly, if you included the "3 seconds" as an attempt to counter the idea that the attack was ritualistic, the time alone is insignificant, because it's the entire process of summoning the Storm (which is very organised) that makes it ritualistic, and it's something that indicates that not a lot of ability was required in conjuring them.

"When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion, from the very centre of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm, and the savagery of a beast.

I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released-the energies of the dark side of the Force." – The Essential Guide to the Force, Pg 179.

The ability alone quite frankly in no way supports or adds to Palpatine's level of Force ability, and is quite frankly useless to include in these debates.

And he summoned it and directed it against the rebel fleet, not once did he ever do so against Luke, and to elaborate on my point, what I was saying was that in a fast paced combat situation, with his opponents right next to him, there's no proof whatsoever that would suggest he'd be capable of controlling it to the point where he'd be able to use it against his opponents without destroying himself in the process.

Even if he were to have directed it against Luke, that still wouldn't have meant that he would have been capable of controlling it to such a degree, because he knew that his spirit would have been able to enter a clone body if he were to have been killed, ergo, destroying himself in the process wouldn't have mattered. However it would in these versus threads, making the attack quite simply useless in these scenarios.

who surpasses any of the Sith Lords in single combat; and it didn't appear to be stopped by Luke.

Lol. Good luck proving up on that claim.

No, but it's similar to Infinities;

You're right, it's exactly similar to the very many Infinities, making it completely N-Canon, and useless to bring up.

it's what would happen if Anakin came to see the duel, and seeing as George Lucas read the novel and approved it, he would tell them to change the part about Sidious' inhuman speed.

The fact that GL read and approved the novel is insignificant.

He chose to contradict that part of the novel by having Anakin arrive once the duel had ended, and made no effort whatsoever in making Sidious seem that fast in any part of the movie, even when using CGI for Sidious in his duel with Yoda.

Fact of the matter is, the movie is the final product, and higher form of canon, and it trumps the novel. Bottom line.

Isn't speed a legitimate combat technique?

Didn't say it wasn't, but it has nothing to do with actual lightsaber technique, and that's something you appear to believe that Nihilus and Traya suck at, and Sidious is the God with, which there’s no proof for.

Agen Kolar was called one of the greatest blade-beings in the history of the order, and I think some degree of technical skill is needed to take him down. By that logic, a super-fast human with absolutely no lightsaber prowess could take out a master swordsmen.

That logic would be absolutely correct. Give The Flash a lightsaber, and he would have killed all four of them in an instant.

I'm referring to Lightsaber Skills; Mace was being pushed by Sidious, and it appeared like Sidious had the edge, while Yoda was forced to his limits in terms of saber skills by Sidious;

Once again, Fallacy of Division.

once again, Yoda is the greatest Jedi ever at this point, meaning he's BEYOND the Exile, who incidentally happened to take out Sion, Nihilus, and Traya, so thus, Sidious > Exile. Thus, Sidious > Sith Triumvrate.

...

I've seen this "NG isn't canon!!!111!!" argument thousands of thousands of times. It's completely stupid. Nick Gillard was a participant on the set of ROTS, he CREATED the fighs and fighting styles of the characters as we see them in a movie; don't you think he has some word regarding the character's prowess?

Only from a choreography standpoint, and that alone. His opinion has no bearing on canon.

He is in direct contact with George Lucas and greatly influences him, and unless George Lucas approved with the concept of Sidious having uber saber skills, he wouldn't have let NG say it. Your direct argument against a canon source fails, once again.

It's likely GL didn't feel strongly enough to forbid him from saying it, which isn't quite the same as that being his vision, or GL approved canon.

The fact remains, as has been constantly explained, that Nick Gillard's opinion has no bearing, whatsoever, on the canon storyline.

Fallible characters, fallible characters...[i/]. How exactly do you take Traya's and Visas' words as absolute canon when you say NEC isn't canon?

I do it because what Traya says has a significant effect on the storyline, in setting Nihilus up to be the extremely powerful force of nature that he was intended to be, and without anything that would bring her claims into question, it's pretty clear that her words were intended to tell the audience something that they're not capable of portraying in a video game: character thoughts.

As for what Visas states in the comic, already explained.

The NEC statement on the other hand has no real bearing on the history of the mythos or on the story, and truthfully only appears to have been included to fill in the spaces, or to include an aspect of author bias.

Decide if you trust characters. Traya could merely be exaggerrating Nihilus' power... Nihilus became unable to control his power, his unsatiable hunger. If he truly had such amazing mastery, he should have been able to control it perfectly.

Since when was his hunger his power? It's not, if anything, his power is an answer to his hunger, which is something that he can control extremely well. His uncontrollable hunger has no bearing on his personal power.

Pure willpower.

Willpower alone doesn't produce tangible results; in the context of Force powers, it determines the mental capabilities behind them, and while that has some effect, being able to have your body constantly and permanently held together (as it stayed that way even when Sion was asleep and meditating) and being able to cheat death through the Force, something completely unprecedented, clearly demands exceptional ability with the Force.

Anakin did the same; he would've died if he hadn't kept his will to live.

Faunus already responded to this.

Also, what if Sion's head got lopped off?

In his fight with the Exile, it's [i]heavily implied that she literally had nothing in her arsenal that could cause Sion any lasting damage; she was clearly continuously knocking him back with her lightsaber, yet he was able to rise up each and every time in as good a condition as he had been at the beginning of the fight. It's likely his ability to hold his body together makes him impervious to such damage, and even if that wasn't the case, the idea that such an ability would have its flaws doesn’t take away from the ability that is obviously required behind it.

What if the dark side energy holding him together would be destroyed by a far superior master of the force? What if Sidious simply mind-raped him to death? Sion is hardly an unbeatable character.

In cut content, which was only not included in the final product because the developers ran out of time (and thus, would logically fit with the developers' vision), he was capable of receiving an onslaught of powers from Nihilus, including a Force drain, and get right on up, with no real lasting damage, which would indicate that the ability extends beyond just physical damage.

Traya's precognition was also matched by Sidious, whose had a very remarkable precognition capability.

It clearly wasn't that amazing, otherwise he likely wouldn't have relied on the prophets of the dark side, and he hasn't once demonstrated ability with the art even close to what Traya was capable of. How about actually providing an argument rather than just making countless unsupported claims?

Also, her feat of overpowering the three most powerful Jedi Masters was matched by Sidious, who did it with a lightsaber,

Apples and oranges.

and who also subsequently destroyed three Sith Acolyes, whose dark side defenses and knowledge could very well be beyond the Masters with a mere burst of force lightning.

Already responded to.

He also reduced a gigantic worm, a being created of the dark side, to ashes with a single gout of force lightning.

A single gout of force lightning?

swtimeline.ru/?view=973&size=M&page=056
swtimeline.ru/?view=973&size=M&page=057
swtimeline.ru/?view=973&size=M&page=058

^That?

I fail to see where it defines the exact amount that was used.

Rofl. This just made me laugh. Sidious has displayed far more impressive abilities than they, but if what people say about you is true- I see no way you can actually understand this.

Not RotS Sidious in a million years, and I'd argue DE Sidious as well.

The fact remains, regardless of your mad ramblings, that all of the Triumvirate have displayed both vast domination over other powerful Jedi, as well as completely unprecedented abilities. Sidious hasn't, and nothing that he's displayed would indicate that he's as powerful as any of them.

Originally posted by Faunus
Still, a ridiculously accurate prediction.
So when Sidious is outclassed in a department, it "doesn't matter"?

Sidious had never displayed having the capacity to see events with such clarity- at least, not that far in the distant future- but it won't matter in a fight, and doesn't necessarily mean Traya > Palpatine. It is a display to Traya's potency in the force- indeed, I admitted that she was almost as strong as Sidious in th force- but seeing as her only other impressive force feat, draining of three Jedi masters who you CANNOT prove were trying to defend themselves, was more than matched by Sidious' lightning, it still doesn't conclude that Traya > Sidious.

Originally posted by Faunus
lol
"In combat." He tricked Saesee and Agen in the novel, he didn't outduel them.
It was garbage. Sidious' slaughter of the Jedi Masters was the worst choreographed sequence in SW by far, and ultimately unrealistic given when we know of said Jedi in the EU. Mace is one of my favorite characters, as is Palpatine amongst the Sith (in some depictions), but I hated that fight. The novel's version was darker, more brutal, far more believable, and completely superior in every possible way.

I kind of liked the initial duel between Sidious and Mace (Sidious forcing Mace down the hallway) and Sidious' acrobatics during the duel, but yeah, other than that, the novel's version was superior.

Saesee was tricked, it's true, but Kolar- if his reflexes were sufficient good- should have been capable of at least attempting to defend himself. But since its contradicted by the movie DIRECTLY, it's non-canon... it's simply a sort of 'what-if'. And I liked it better, too.

Originally posted by Faunus
Probably, but the orbalisks give Bane an inherent advantage in combat.

That's true... but remember, the orbalisks can possibly be cracked by a sufficient powerful lightsaber blow, and seeing as Sidious was a percise and incredibly fast lightsaber combatant, you must not overlook the possibility that Sidious can strike him down. I'll admit that it'll be a VERY close match thanks to the orbalisks, but Sidious has, ultimately, a slightly better chance of winning.

Originally posted by Faunus
You haven't read any of RoT, have you?[

Raskta was the best duelist in the Order, bar none, and Farfalla ascended to the head of the Army of Light after Hoth's death. Both in the most militant era in Jedi history. Johun was utter garbage, but the battlemaster managed even to use his style to her advantage. And, they were being boosted considerably by Worror's powerful battle meditation.

Oh, I know that alright. Raskta is an incredibly strong lightsaber duelist, there's no doubt about that... but then again, unlike the team that tackled Bane- Farfalla and Raskta, albeit being empowered by Worror's battle meditation- was inferior to a team of Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. I don't really believe that there was anything Farfalla has done, and we know that Jedi positionts aren't necessarily an indicator of strength (occasionally situations when knights surpass masters, council members being inferior to non-council members, etc...), so Farfalla being a Jedi Lord means next to nothing. Raskta even later considered him a hindrance in the battle; I'd assume she wasn't being arrogant.

Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin, however, were all proclaimed by the omniscent narrator to three of the best swordsmen in history, which makes them extremely formidable. Now, there is actual feats done by Fisto, at least, which PROVE him to be one of the best swordsmen in history. In AOTC, Obi-Wan managed to last against Dooku, an extremely impressive foe who we know has almost unrivaled skills with a saber, for a decent-lengthed time. Now, Obi-Wan, a Jedi Knight with 1 year more of experience and power gainage was stated to be Kit Fisto's inferior. And Sidious WTFpwned Kit Fisto while simultaneously fighting with Mace Windu. Bane, however, did not "WTFpwning" and was almost defeated by the battle meditation empowered-Raskta alone.

Originally posted by Faunus
Stupid argument. This is like 'Mace would've sucked without Vaapad and shatterpoint.' Just stupid.

I could say that Mace without shatterpoint could not have defeated Sidious, or things like that. It's those little advantages that are supposedly 'unfair' in combat... well, to be honest, I agree with you, it's stupid. But a matter of fact is- in terms of lightsaber skills excluding the orbalisks, Sidious is beyond Bane. And if he plays his cards right, he can kill Orbalisk Bane.

Originally posted by Faunus
Bane's fighting style evolved around his armor; he uses it to his advantage in every way, allowing him to focus completely on the offense while blocking any strikes with his body. Which is why he's practically unstoppable in personal combat, bar a few select characters in the SW saga.
Because Bane fended off attacks from three BM'd Jedi at once (four lightsabers, thanks to Raskta's dual blades), all aimed at his face. As fast as Sidious is, he can't match that. And by your logic; I wonder why Traya can't just WTFpwn Sidious on her own with her drain, cuz she did it to three prominent Jedi Masters at once.

Sidious, incidentally, happens to be one of these characters.

Sidious managed to WTFpwn three Jedi Masters who were confirmed to be some of the greatest swordsmen in history; I'd even go as far as to proclaim that aside from Raskta, they were possibly superior to anyone on the strike team against Bane. Lol, it's a better comparison than Traya's force drain because Bane did a similar thing; namely fight several Jedi of different power-levels (Raskta being fairly high, Johun being utter crap, etc...), while Sidious successfully pwned three confirmed, STRONG Jedi Masters in the space of 10 seconds.

Traya can't 'WTFpwn' Sidious with her drain just like Sidious can't 'WTFpwn' her with his lightning, because they were both extremely potent force wielders and can probably summon up defenses against that. And until you can prove that Traya > Sidious in the force, which goes against canon and feats, that point is moot.

But to be honest... why are we even debating this? Everyone knows Sidious gets WTFpwned. Maybe we should just stop getting off-topic.

Originally posted by Kadesh
I'm sure they were as well, but being "quite well-informed" doesn't make their opinion factual, hence you looking like a fool every time you try to treat it as such.

By that logic, you can look through any relatively accurate real world encyclopedia, pick out any blanket statement that's subjective by nature inside, and claim it to be a fact, simply because no already established fact disagrees with it.

That's why this is Star Wars, and not the real world! *gasp*... wait, I didn't know that! I thought Star Wars really existed!

Point is moot. NEC wasn't retconned in any way, and is considered to be canon... now then, don't you think its writers would possibly *avoid* placing incorrect information? PROVE it that NEC is not canon. You can't, can you? I didn't think so.

Originally posted by Faunus
As Faunus was saying, do you actually enjoy using third-rate logic?

Do you absolutely enjoy trying to sound funny and completely failing at the same time? If so, I understand how you got your glorious reputation, Noobaris.

Originally posted by Faunus
No, it's not. I've read DE, as has nearly everybody here, and if I had somehow magically missed something as significant out (I didn't), it's pretty clear that at least one of the pro Sidious "faction" would have made such an observation.

I made a mistake; it was stated in the DE Sourcebook, not that actual comic book... and mayve you should read the Visionary Guide again? Under 'Darth Sidious'? And maybe someone else can tell me if it said that... I'm sure someone OTHER than you- a clear supporter of the "Every Ancient Sith > Sidious" theory- could prove me wrong.

Originally posted by Faunus
Either way, pretending that we all did fail to spot such a key point, provide an exact quote, and page number, or quit being so persistently idiotic.

Rofl. So because I don't possess the infinite number of Star Wars material you have, I automatically fail? Maybe you're the one who should serious find a way to get his intelligence level raised.

Originally posted by Faunus
Moron, much? I was quite clearly asking for a quote for the supposed Dark Empire statement.

Bashing, bashing and more bashing. Since you lack the capacity to do anything other than that, I'll simply ignore this.

Originally posted by Faunus
Most devastatingly powerful foe of the darkness, actually, which Yoda having been in a position to fight against it for centuries could most certainly have a lot to do with.

*Sigh*. The novel is extremely clear; Yoda is the MOST POWERFUL foe of the dark side there has ever been. You can't refute this, so just stop trying.

Originally posted by Faunus
Good Lord you're dense. Refer to Faunus's Maul/Sidious/Force Push analogy; your logic fails.

It would appear to me that I'm not the one who was, according to the people on this forum, banned over 30 times and still comes back for more and explain to everyone why every single character, including Jar Jar Binks, is stronger than Sidious. Yeah, I'm the dense one.

My logic works if you could read. Everyone has some sort of speciality, correct? Now, USE YOUR LOGIC. You tend to use your BEST power/trait as your speciality... and due to this reason, as Sidious- a force user GREATER than any of yours, despite your persistence- should, as lightning was his most powerful force power, be able to use lightning to a greater potency than any of them.

Originally posted by Faunus
Which is exactly why it makes Nihilus that powerful. You don't simply look at what he does, and think, wow, that guy's got some awesome draining skills. You look at what he does, and determine what kind of level of power and mastery such an action would demand, and it puts him far above Sidious with his street level lightning.

Canon disagrees with you. Facts disagree with you. Everything other than your biased opinion disagrees with you.

Look at Nihilus' performance in his only fight; I remember fighting him, and he was simply pwned by the Jedi Exile, Yoda's inferior, in saber skills.

And I don't recall Nihilus deteoriating a planet into a dark side bastion through his sheer presence, clouding the very force with his presence, increasing the potency of the dark side and destroying the Jedi's usual clarity of vision; see, I don't remember Nihilus doing anything like that. You can tell yourself Nihilus is beyond Sidious all day long, it just isn't true.

Originally posted by Faunus
Said fallible character was present at the time, was able to see the direct effect of Nihilus' drain through the Force, and was shown to be directing her speech to the audience, which within the medium of comics, is a method the writers use to convey what is factually the case, using a character as the mouth piece, for added effect.

Then why do you deny the omniscent narrator, who is a FAR superior source to an in-universe character, when he claims Yoda is the strongest Jedi in history? Or when the Dark Empire Sourcebook did, indeed, make the claim that the most powerful Sith Lord- EVER- had risen from the grave? Hypocrit.

Originally posted by Faunus
And being in extreme awe of his power isn't something that would put her in denial, or cause her to mentally distort facts.

No... but when you're automatically in a situation when you worship the certain person as a god-like entity and are in absolute fear of him, that tends to distort actual facts.

Originally posted by Faunus
As I explained to Styles, nothing indicates that such an action was vital in the creation of holocrons, and as it stands, Sidious hasn't displayed anything that would indicate that his level of Force Mastery compares.

Let's see... well, I've made a list of Sidious' achievments numerous times, but since you're either in denial, a serious anti-Sidious believer, or a crazy Ancient Sith fanboy, you refuse to accept that Sidious > Bane in terms of force powers.

Originally posted by Faunus
You could bring up his greater experience, but that could just as easily be countered by bringing up evidence of Bane's insane learning rate.

Suuure. Prove Sidious didn't learn things quickly under Plagueis. PROVE IT. You can't.

Originally posted by Faunus
As Faunus stated, it's a demonstration of Force mastery, and would indicate that in a versus scenario, even when up against people who have displayed more power, he would likely be able to focus his powers more efficiently.

Go to the other argument here... once again, if there was really another way to create holocrons, wouldn't Bane do the simple thing and create a holocron another way? The only other possibility is that there's a harder way of creating holocrons, which once again makes Sidious possibly above Bane in this matter.

Originally posted by Faunus
Are you confusing what he does in Sithisis with his Byss [and its inhabitants] drain, or did you mean to say "another impressive ritual" or "an impressive ritual" rather than "the impressive ritual?" Because the wording makes little sense.

Yeah. Right. In Byss, his sheer presence corrupted the land and transformed the planet into a bastion of the dark side... in Sithisis, he clouded the most populous planet in the galaxy with the shroud of the dark side, mind-raped its inhabitants, and released lightning storms throughout it.

Originally posted by Faunus
Your burden of proof, not mine, and as was said, he also relied on the focusing crystal, which is no less than what Sadow used to make a Sun go nova.

The difference is- the ritual was Sidious, not the crystal. It was likely a simple focusing conduit for his ritual... and remember that the ritual was Sidious. He, unlike Sadow, did not rely on his technology. The only thing Naga had was the capacity to throw bricks. Very impressive.

Originally posted by Faunus
He absorbed the energy through all different parts of his body on his own, contained it all on his own (while protecting himself from it internally), and reached out through the Force and redirected it across the Planet's surface, again, on his own. Nothing Sidious has ever done even remotely compares in terms of demonstrated power.

Lol. Since you're using ever, I'll go ahead and tell you that Sidious unleashed a storm that devestated an entire fleet of starships, was able to, according to the DE sourcebook, ravage planets, yes, RAVAGE planets, and was called the strongest usage of the dark side. EVER.

His ROTS self clouded the ENTIRE force through his presence and destroyed the perception of the Jedi; it could be used to cloud their judgement, weaken them, make the dark side stronger... through his sheer presence, later on, he corrupted Byss and transformed it into one of the world's greatest dark side sanctury. But as you're biased, unreasonable, and in denial, I don't think you can see why that's more impressive than channeling the attack of 25 other Sith Lords into a planet.

Originally posted by Kadesh
1. That it had a greater effect on Sidious' body than any before him begs for proof.

I just proved it. Prove otherwise. What other Sith Lord had his whole frame ravaged by the energy inside him? Name me one. Since there is none, I just proved it.

Originally posted by Faunus
2. Even if that was the case, you act as if that somehow translates into his darkside presence being more powerful than that of any before him, when there would logically be many other factors involved, such as:

A) How physically condition the mortal body is.

B) The control one had over their power.

C) Their willpower.

D) For how long they had been using the darkside for, and to what extent.

A) Sidious was simply a 60-something year old man. His physical condition was hardly poor.

B) And Sidious was a MASTER of a control, as displayed multiple times with his force usages... indeed, the dark side energy was simply too much for his body to handle.

C) Sidious, being probably the most intelligent character in the entire saga, had, most likely, more than potent willpower.

D) And you have just proven my correct, smartass. If Sidious was using the dark side for an extended period and with such a level of power, that level of power MUST be potent, as we didn't see any other old Sith Lord get disfigured by the sheer power inside them.

Originally posted by Faunus
3. You do realise, of course, that this is no way applies to beings who don't possess living bodies (Nihilus, and Andeddu, and arguably Sion and Simus as well), and likely to Orbalisk Bane as well given how the orbalisks constantly rejuvenated his body, and possibly to any Force User who used the Force to preserve or strengthen their bodies or were able to counteract the dark side's negative effects on their bodies through other means.

Err... how come Nihilus didn't possess a human body? And prove that Sidious didn't try to heal himself... maybe he did? A Sith Lord as strong as Sidious, who was forced into using a specialized Sith Alchemy technique to hide his true persona, likely tried a simpler way to change his appearance.

Originally posted by Faunus
Unsubstantiated hyperbole?

Err... no. As presence changed the face of the force...

Originally posted by Faunus
That had actually been happening ever since the Ro2 had been put into place, likely due to the fact that the dark side was being concentrated to a far greater degree than ever before.

Where was it stated? Prove it.

Originally posted by Faunus
Feat Wars?

Clearly such an action isn't fully testament to personal power from a combat standpoint, otherwise the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu (who were as vulnerable to Sidious' powers as anyone within the Order) wouldn't have been the fair matches for him that they were.

Lol, then Bane's channeling of the attack wasn't relevant... and Nihilus' drain was only on a planetary scale, so it didn't matter in actual combat... please. It's simply displaying Sidious' power in the Dark Side of the force, like all of your character's rituals. And it's beyond anything they've done. And don't ignore the possibility that Sidious used the dark side of the force to weaken Kolar's, Fisto's, and Tiin's reflexes, dull them, already increasing his prowess with a lightsaber- which, as I've proven, is WELL beyond Nihilus, Traya, and Sion, and slightly beyond Bane.

Originally posted by Faunus
Which is exactly what makes the feat pail in comparison to the quick destruction of the inhabitants of Katarr.

Do you even ignore the possibility that Sidious might have chosen not to devour them at once? They were his workers, his slaves, he needed them... but by slowly draining them, and MAINTAINING the drain over time, while still allowing them to work, is just as impressive as Nihilus' quick drain.

Originally posted by Faunus
The difference is, the lightning made contact with Yoda's lightsaber first (which did nothing to reduce the amount of the lightning), and then his Force defence.

The Force Shield (which has always been a basic ability), as Ro2 shows us, counteracts with the lightning before any physical contact is made, reduces its amount, and if any gets through, it still has to get past the Jedi/Sith's lightsaber, and it's something that any Force User would be able to conjure up, as long as they're in a ready position (and the rules of these threads would dictate that all combatants be in a ready position for the start of the fight at the very least).

Really... then how come in both situations lightning is blocked by a saber in the movies, by Obi-Wan and by Windu, it made contact with a saber? Please. And prove that Yoda wasn't putting up his so-called 'force defenses'...

Faunus already covered this, and while you think you may have countered his point, apparently you weren't able to quite grasp the fact that lightning is lightning: lethal by nature, and that you can't prove that the potency of the lightning he used against the stormtroopers was any greater than that used by Bane on one of his first attempts, meaning that scale is the only thing that can be compared, and it's something that was greater on Bane's part.[/B][/QUOTE]

Really? It was GREATER? And now aren't you a little exaggerrating? And, seeing as it was Bane's usage of the lightning for the first time, I seriously doubt he could make it that powerful and in such a large location... if it really was that powerful, it wouldn't have been deflected by a Jedi who was half-dead. Remember, Yoda couldn't deflect Sidious' lightning in such a manner. And Yoda >>>>>>>> Worror.

Originally posted by Faunus
1. Worror, while not a combat orientated Jedi, was far from being second-class; it's made explicitly clear that he was a very powerful Jedi, and that he was a major player in the war.

Really? Where exactly?

Originally posted by Faunus
2. He was described as "releasing his own power" when he conjured up the blue orb, a kamikaze type attack if you will, making it the most potent defencive manoeuvre we've ever seen in Star Wars.

The whole energy of a basically dead Jedi who hardly has the power to even compare with people like Yoda. Most potent defensive manuever ever seen in Star Wars? Yeah, right. Because it was used to block Bane's attack doesn't mean that it's all-powerful.

Originally posted by Faunus
3. Pretending that Worror's defencive orb really wasn't that powerful, you would only have a point if we had evidence that Bane's lightning attack was the upper limit of his power, when it's likely that it wasn't, considering:

a) It was at the end of an extremely long battle, and Bane would have likely been too exhausted to use all of his power at that point.

b) Bane believed everyone to be dead, with the exception of the weakest of the group, who at the time was missing an arm, and basically lying on the floor, powerless against him. From his perspective, there wouldn't have been a necessity to use that much power, so why would he? It was most likely a final casual effort to finish a battle that he had basically already won.

Prove that his lightning wasn't serious... it was AIMED to kill, no? Why would Bane take any risks? And once again... even if Bane was exauhsted, which he would not be, due to the orbalisks repleneshing him constantly, how could his lightning get deflected back to him by a practically dead Jedi who isn't even on the top tier of Jedi?

Originally posted by Faunus
The fact that it was his preferred power doesn't change the fact that, by virtue of overall demonstration, we've seen far more from the likes of the Triumvirate that would indicate that their overall Force ability was much greater than his, and that's something that would be applicable through lightning, or any other technique in their arsenal.

You're basing this on three things, basically:

1. Nihilus drained a planet. As I've proven multiple times, Sidious did things just as impressive, if not more impressive.

2. Traya drained three Jedi Masters who were probably not capable of defending such an attack. Once again, Sidious has done FAR more impressive things.

3. You're one of the Anti-Sidious faction who must prove that he is a pathetic weakling, and fail every single time.

You fail. But I don't expect you to understand this.

Originally posted by Faunus
Or maybe because he was too exhausted to continue? As I said, the burden of proof's on you, so bring proof to the table, or go home.

Right then... seeing as the instant Anakin removed Windu's arm, Sidious effortlessly unleashed lightning just as powerful as before with no indications of fatigue, I see it as PROOF that he was not truly exauhsted in the lightning struggle.

Originally posted by Faunus
I don't believe they did. Either way, even if they had seen him, or they had spoken to him, that alone wouldn't amount to anything unless you could provide evidence that would suggest that they would have perceived him as a threat.

They're not morons. They're tried to resurrect someone to kill Sidious' prized apprentice, and they know Sidious is basically all-knowing in these things; they would be afraid of him.

Originally posted by Faunus
Given that these were some of the most powerful Jedi of their time (who had access to Sith Holocrons, and had fought in wars against darksiders in the past), and that these darksiders haven't displayed anything that relates to personal power, and that they were basically all non-combat orientated seers, it's doubtful.

And again, you haven't even provided any evidence that would suggest that these acolytes had put up a defence before Sidious confronted them anyway.

Does any evidence show that the masters attempted to block Traya's assault? No. I can only speculate, but you can't prove that Traya's drain attempted to be blocked. And non-combat doesn't really matter when it comes to pure mastery of the force, you know. It's not like he owned them in sabers.

Originally posted by Faunus
Which is usually the case. Doing something in an organised manner would usually imply that you're not capable of doing it in less time, or without going through certain steps, and in some cases, relying on the use of external objects or sacrifices and such.

Then Bane's channeling of the attack is irrelevant and all other mainly RITUALISTIC feats of your precious Ancient Sith are irrelevant. It's a factor of force strength, if one is capable of performing such a ritual.

Originally posted by Faunus
The fact remains that what these acolytes did exactly is completely undefined, and as such, you can't really get much out of it; certainly not enough to claim that they would have been especially better ready to defend against Force attacks, and that's assuming that they even applied a defence in the first place.

Prove it.

I think the Dark Side sourcebook basically said that to use Sith Alchemy, you must be a powerful force user... and remember, it's Maul we're talking about. Maul, who was chosen by Darth Sidious to be his apprentice is likely quite powerful.

I'm done arguing this stupid thing, however, since you're obiviously biased against Sidious in all manners, and extremely unreasonable with your blind hatred towards Sidious. Like a wise person here said: "I don't argue with socks."

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Point is moot. NEC wasn't retconned in any way, and is considered to be canon... now then, don't you think its writers would possibly *avoid* placing incorrect information? PROVE it that NEC is not canon. You can't, can you? I didn't think so.

Nebaris is not saying that the NEC isn't canon nor is he saying that the statement is not canon. What he is saying is that the source is an in universe so the statement is someones opinion and it should be treated as an opinion of a in universe source (not matter how well informed the author was) being presented in an out of universe source.

Do you absolutely enjoy trying to sound funny and completely failing at the same time? If so, I understand how you got your glorious reputation, Noobaris.

My bad. The word were 'Faunus' instead of 'Kadesh'.

And yeah, Noobaris is saying that NEC isn't canon. Read his first posts.

And, btw, there are other sources confirming the fact that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history;

Death Star, Page 75; "The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed."

Ultimate Visual Dictionary, contrary to Noobaris' lies; "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time.", page 72

In Empire's End, on of the spirits claims that Sidious is the most powerful being to use the dark side. Those spirits include your precious Bane.

Also, according to Kevin J. Anderson, the author of the numerous Exar Kun and other ancient Sith stuff: ""No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.""

And, finally, according to the DE Sourcebook, the most powerful Sith Lord- EVER- had risen from the grave. Hell, I think now Noobaris/Nebaris (however it's spelled...) will have a hard time to counter that.

Oh trust me he will counter that with statements he pull out of his ass.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Oh trust me he will counter that with statements he pull out of his ass.

Likely. Because everyone knows Sidious will be curbstomped by Nihilus, Sion, and Traya without full use of their limbs. And Bane's sheer presence can kill him 😛.

Nah, stuff like "fallible third parties" or "I have the book and the quote isn't stated there".

He loves to come up with all those excuses which is why the top people of this forum no longer bothers to argue with him. You see, he's basically a broken record.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Nah, stuff like "fallible third parties" or "I have the book and the quote isn't stated there".

He loves to come up with all those excuses which is why the top people of this forum no longer bothers to argue with him. You see, he's basically a broken record.

I see...

Btw, LOL. I read your profile, and your funny quotes are absolutely hilarious. xD

Btw... I seriously think I'm gonna profile that 'Sion, Nihilus, and Traya curbstomp Sidious' statement.

No, I prefer Nebaris's attorney-esque attempts to cast doubt onto such statements; "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" = based on the accumulated amount of time that Yoda had spent fighting it as opposed to innate strength. WTF? "[the Galactic Emperor] succeeded where all others failed in taming the dark side" = To tame is to make weaker, ego Sidious made the dark side weaker. WTF? "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history" = wrong, because it was said by a fallible third party. "Ancient Sith pwnz all!!1!" = factual, because the fallible third party who mentioned it is not fallible, or if she is, she is somehow a superior source than the historical council of a galactic superpower with resources and investigative reach that tool the shit out of anything Traya has. The list goes on and on and on.

Don't be fooled, younglings, simply declaring that a certain quote can be portrayed multiple ways without providing the basis of evidence does not cut it. It's like how the Antedivulians used to say that the tNEC quote that "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history" was an obvious reference to political power, despite the fact that the statement itself is a reference to a battle -- not debate or a ****ing election. That shit doesn't cut it. In order to cast ambiguity, you must make a well reasoned argument as to why the statement is ambiguous. Simply saying "it [clearly] is" or "it is because I say so" doesn't suffice.