Originally posted by Man of ChristHe could have used the force or there could have more assassins that were on board in other areas of the ship. After Peragus exploded the ship could have been put onto auto pilot and I forget what happened to that other ship the Harbinger found and wasnt there a sith ship in the area? I dont have kotor 2 anymore so i cant check.
and then to korriban once we killed all the assasins?
Originally posted by Sidi-BoyAwesome. Now prove it, or drop it. What you think might have happened doesn't matter.
Right then; see the following picture, alright?The Jedi Conclave gathers. They debate, while Nihilus is preparing some massive ritual in space; then, he releases the ritual and it spreads across the planet, eliminating its inhabitants. That does not contradict anything stated about the massive drain.
I see... impressive. But they were unlikely to have any sorts of defenses, as they were invisible and did not think they could see her. It's impressive, regardless.Sith assassin's draw power from their enemies; the stronger their target, the stronger they become. This is a passive ability, which means its always active.
And really, the double standards here are mind-boggling. According to you, three random alchemists who are apparently familiar with Sidious' rage - and therefore, would logically have been defending themselves - had put up their Force defenses, but over a dozen assassins who likely had trained with the likes of Revan, Malak, or any of the Triumvirate, and were largely responsible for the slaughter of most of the galaxy's Jedi, are not going to be ready for an offensive attack. Right.
That's like me saying the Cin Drallig was an awesome user of force powers; just because someone was a skilled lightsaber instructor, it does NOT, NOT mean that their strength in the force is high. And seeing as absolutely nothing dictates his force skills to be anything above ordinary, we'll have to assume that's the case.So the absence of proof = proof of absence clause applies only when it conveniences you? What happened to "Nihilus 'might' have needed a ritual, despite nothing pointing to that conclusion"?
The fact that Kas'im managed to completely protect himself from a telekinetic attack that imploded an entire building means that, yeah, he definitely has something going for him.
Do I really need to state this over and over again?What you need to do is stop trying to downplay the feats of other characters in order to supplant your claims about your favorite character. I'm generally against the idea of calling people out on bias, but this requires it.
Sidious' lightning- Was capable of reducing powerful force sensitives to ashes, destroy massive amounts of people at once, and almost overpower the strongest Jedi in history.As of RotS? Only the last applies.
Stay on topic.
Bane's lightning- Could reduce non force-sensitives to ashes, and fill up a large room, when it is likely that the lightning's power was only minimal.The first is matched only by Sidious at his peak. The second assertion is absolutely laughable, especially considering that the display occurs an hour after he began learning the technique.
Got deflected back to him by a practically dead Jedi.Practically dead =/= weak. Worror unleashed all of his power to pull that off, and it only worked because Bane was caught completely off-guard - he'd just slashed out all of Worror's four throats, and presumably believed he was dead - and had his attention focused on casually finishing off another opponent. It's fairly evident that it wasn't Bane's lightning on full power.
Other than Bane's channeling of the massive attack, Sidious trumpts him in mastery, skill, and control, with his rituals, his lightning, and, most impressively of all (possibly), his very presence affecting the ENTIRE force and clouding the minds of the most powerful Jedi who lived literally next door to him. Yeah, unless you think Bane pulled a moon out of orbit... you see that he has NOTHING on Sidious in force powers.The amusingly overzealous praise aside, Bane has feats that have yet to be matched by Sidious, or any Force-user for that matter. He's responsible for the single most destructive telekinetic assault in the saga - accomplished when he was far from his peak - and at a stage fairly fairly early on in his ascent to power, has actually demonstrated use of the Force at a subatomic level, managed to move at speeds completely beyond the perceptions of other trained Force-users, and has a complete familiarity with every possible lightsaber technique in the seven forms of combat.
Again: I'm not arguing that Sidious isn't Bane's technical superior in a number of combat-related areas. But Bane has advantages of his own that serve to offset his opponent's advantages. Physically, he's vastly superior in every possible way. His aforementioned knowledge of dueling forms - which is essentially flawless - means that Sidious' mastery of the lightsaber is basically negated, and the impenetrable orbalisk armor means that Bane holds an indisputable advantage in close combat. Palpatine's allegedly superior mastery would be at best only slightly above Bane's, so even a Force contest could arguably go either way due to the protection afforded to Bane against anything but Sith lightning by the armor.
But to be honest? This whole argument is made redunant by the plethora of quotes backing up Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Yes, ROTS Sidious. Meaning ROTS Sidious is stronger than Bane. Meaning you can't argue that Bane is Sidious' superior. It's just stupid to argue against facts also backed up by evidence.You have one statement issued by a fallible in-universe character to support the assertion that RotS Sidious is the most powerful Sith in history. Assuming that the statement is concrete and untouchable, it'd be remarkably idiotic of you to suggest that the more "powerful" opponent holds every advantage, as I've already demonstrated that to be untrue.
So yes, it can most certainly be argued that Bane has a significant chance of defeating Sidious in personal combat. The consensus towards the thread's topic is absolute, although I'm sure you'll continue to propose that Sion is worthless, and therefore gets taken out in the instant required for Nihilus and Traya to annihilate the Emperor.
Originally posted by Sidi-BoyIt's clearly the most destructive; I can't recall anyone else ever destroying a massive structure with a telekinetic attack.
Is that necessarily the most powerful force push in Star Wars history?
Although I'll admit it's very possible, the fact that the likes of Kas'im were capable of blocking it would simply mean that the likes of Sidious would be able to EASILY block it. Sidious >>> Kas'im in the force, it's simply undebetable.Sidious is certainly Kas'im's superior in the Force, but the size of the gap between the two is debatable.
They were users of Sith Alchemy, which, according to the DS Sourcebook, requires plenty of power to use. Force Barrier is a very basic force technique; people with a rather high degree of power should be capable of learning it.That doesn't mean they were using it when Sidious killed them, as you would need to prove in order to support your assertion that his lightning reducing three men to bones is more impressive than Bane's lightning reducing three men and a massive beast to ashes.
They were genetically altered stormtroopers; the sheer capacity to decimate dozens of stormtroopers with a burst of force lightning is well beyond anything Bane displayed.The troopers are modified, ergo they're somehow more resistant to lightning?
And as has been stated before (again, and again, and again), Bane managed to fill an entire hall with lightning an hour after he began learning the technique. Over ten years later, the magnitude of his power would have increased tremendously.
And we know what happened to Bane's lightning when it was met with Worror. We also know what happened to Sidious' lightning when it was met by a FAR more potent foe than Worror.Been over this, too. And the techniques used by Yoda and Worror were not the same, so the situations can't be compared as easily as you would like.
No, but unlike force-sensitives, non force-sensitives are COMPLETELY, as you said, defenseless against the power of lightning;Which means the stormtroopers are defenseless too, genetically modified or not.
of course, if they're physically tough enough- which is my point about the stormtroopers- they should be able to endure the lightning to some degree. Those riders had no defenses and weren't well-conditioned. Nice job, Bane.I swear, I've never encountered anyone on KMC who sets a good first impression, then insists on using such half-assed logic as the crutch for his arguments. It's unbelievable.
The troopers were not protected in any way, and neither were the riders. The fact that the clones have had more formalized training doesn't mean they're less susceptible to Sith lightning, nor does it matter. As he's already shown, Bane possesses the ability to telekinetically obliterate an entire temple, which means that his destructive ability there would also apply to "defenseless" non-Force users. Were their positions reversed, Bane could almost certainly accomplish the same feat in multiple ways.
Githany's a particularly powerful Sith? Since when?Fast learner, but too young to be truly "powerful" in the grand scheme of things. The point is, he mastered the lightning ability in an hour to a higher degree than she had in a much longer period of time.
We all know that in Kaan's brotherhood, the only truly strong Sith were Bane and Kas'im. All others were Sith pretenders and wannabes.You clearly know very little about the material; don't argue from ignorance. Bane himself considered Kaan powerful, as he reflects upon in RoT. Kopecz was notably powerful as well, as was Sirak amongst the trainees; the senior Dark Lords has suspected him to be the sith'ari prior to Bane's arrival.
Yes, it got stronger with time; but in RoT, where Bane achieved his full potential,Wait: full potential? At thirty-six? You're either joking, or being moronic.
he tried to finally kill a Jedi with it... you know the results.Good job taking things completely out of context. The Jedi he tried to kill with it (Johun) was not the Jedi who deflected the lightning back upon him. Worror was noted as a powerful Jedi Master, and it was his last-ditch effort executed upon an opponent who thought he was dead that managed to succeed.
Until you can refute the fact that Bane's lightning was deflected back to him by a half-dead Jedi while Sidious' lightning almost overpowered the greatest Jedi in history, it's a moot point.It's already been done, and multiple times.
And do you at least concede that Sidious would destroy either Traya, Sion, or Nihilus in sabers?You would need to back that statement up if you expect to actually use it, and it's not even remotely relevant to the fight; just you trying to find a way to fellate Sidious some more.
Originally posted by Faunus
Awesome. Now prove it, or drop it. What you think might have happened doesn't matter.
Sith assassin's draw power from their enemies; the stronger their target, the stronger they become. This is a passive ability, which means its always active.
Err... no, Faunus, what "might" have happened is very important in these discussions, since I find it extremely unlikely that Nihilus devoured an entire planet with a single use of the force; I'm not arguing that Nihilus isn't one of the strongest Sith in history, but still... that kind of feat is just overkill. I'll leave you to prove that he devoured it instaneously, otherwise, like my case, "might have happened" is also relevant to you.
Originally posted by Faunus
And really, the double standards here are mind-boggling. According to you, three random alchemists who are apparently familiar with Sidious' rage - and therefore, would logically have been defending themselves - had put up their Force defenses, but over a dozen assassins who likely had trained with the likes of Revan, Malak, or any of the Triumvirate, and were largely responsible for the slaughter of most of the galaxy's Jedi, are not going to be ready for an offensive attack. Right.
Those Sith Assassins, incidentally, could be killed by Jedi in open combat; they relied on stealth and sneak attacks in order to defeat their enemies, and due to this fact, I seriously doubt that they were expecting Traya to be capable of sensing them, nevermind seeing them; unlike the Alchemists, who were met by Sidious head-on and would, probably, know that such an act against the throne- namely the attempted assassination of Sidious' prized apprentice- would be severely punished.
Originally posted by Faunus
So the absence of proof = proof of absence only applies only when it conveniences you? What happened to "Nihilus 'might' have needed a ritual, despite nothing pointing to that conclusion"?The fact that Kas'im managed to completely protect himself from a telekinetic attack that imploded an entire building means that, yeah, he definitely has something going for him.
We all know what happens with characters; if they're strong, SOMETHING needs to be stated about that. As Kas'im had no previous force feats on his belt, then I doubt he was an exceptional force user. And no... nothing directly points to the conclusion that Nihilus walked up, said a few gibberish words, and drained the entire planet with a single usage of the force. It's just as plausible that was a prolonged ritual, Faunus, and although I can't prove it, you can't prove that it was done in instants, with no ritual. I'll accept it as a possibility that he did it instantly, while you should accept it as a possibility that it was a ritual of sorts. There is nothing pointing to either conclusion, so due to that fact, both are possible.
Originally posted by Faunus
What you need to do is stop trying to downplay the feats of other characters in order to supplant your claims about your favorite character. I'm generally against the idea of calling people out on bias, but this requires it.
If I was really as biased as you claim, then how come I admit that Traya and Nihilus will WTFpwn Sidious together? No, I actually like Bane as a character, and I also like Traya as a character. While I can't say the same about Nihilus and Sion, I'm not at all arguing out of bias, Faunus.
Originally posted by Faunus
As of RotS? Only the last applies.
Which is incidentally enough to prove that Sidious' lightning > RoT Bane's lightning. Other than your "Worror used an uber defensive technique" argument, you can't prove that Yoda- whose intention was to kill Sidious at all costs, used a less potent defensive manuever. Note that Yoda, who was severely lacking in offensive techniques, had the ability to deflect Sidious' lightning as the ONLY way to possibly kill him, due to the loss of his lightsaber. It was Yoda's last chance to destroy the emperor of the galaxy, and I'm pretty sure he would give it his all.
Originally posted by Faunus
Stay on topic.
The first is matched only by Sidious at his peak. The second assertion is absolutely laughable, especially considering that the display occurs an hour after he began learning the technique.
Thanks for provind me right; a guy who just learned force lightning isn't going to be able to do it at Sidious-level potency immediately. It's far more likely that the lightning's actual power isn't particularly high; I'm simply being logical, not trying to say it wasn't impressive. And you clearly aren't being logical in this case.
Originally posted by Faunus
Practically dead =/= weak. Worror unleashed all of his power to pull that off, and it only worked because Bane was caught completely off-guard - he'd just slashed out all of Worror's four throats, and presumably believed he was dead - and had his attention focused on casually finishing off another opponent. It's fairly evident that it wasn't Bane's lightning on full power.
I'm going to imitate you and tell you to "prove it!". Bane needed his lightning to kill a Jedi who wasn't close to defeat; sure, he lost his hand, but he wasn't even bleeding. I'm pretty sure Bane would need his lightning's full power to certainly kill a Jedi. And practically dead does mean that Worror's power is almost completely drained, and yeah... like Yoda, he was desperate, but unlike Yoda, nothing points to him being particularly strong and nor is his technique necessarily better than Yoda's.
Originally posted by Faunus
The amusingly overzealous praise aside, Bane has feats that have yet to be matched by Sidious, or any Force-user for that matter. He's responsible for the single most destructive telekinetic assault in the saga - accomplished when he was far from his peak - and at a stage fairly fairly early on in his ascent to power, has actually demonstrated use of the Force at a subatomic level, managed to move at speeds completely beyond the perceptions of other trained Force-users, and has a complete familiarity with every possible lightsaber technique in the seven forms of combat.
Anakin isn't a trained force user? Yeah. As stated here, Subatomic Manipulations were most likely also accomplished by Sidious, as he also created a holocron and both would most likely chose the most efficient way to do it. It doesn't require any particular power, just control; and as you admit Sidious is Bane's technical superior, you see how there is absolutely no reason why Sidious wouldn't be able to accomplish the same.
Originally posted by Faunus
Again: I'm not arguing that Sidious isn't Bane's technical superior in a number of combat-related areas. But Bane has advantages of his own that serve to offset his opponent's advantages. Physically, he's vastly superior in every possible way. His aforementioned knowledge of dueling forms - which is essentially flawless - means that Sidious' mastery of the lightsaber is basically negated, and the impenetrable orbalisk armor means that Bane holds an indisputable advantage in close combat. Palpatine's allegedly superior mastery would be at best only slightly above Bane's, so even a Force contest could arguably go either way due to the protection afforded to Bane against anything but Sith lightning by the armor.
As I do have a respect for you, I don't expect you to be one of these people who claim that Nick Gillard isn't canon; therefore, see that Sidious was stated to be a "Master of every style and every weapon", "could change his fighting style at a whim"... yeah, Sidious has a lot more knowledge than Bane in absolutely everything. It's just logical; Sidious lived for longer, trained for longer...
And Sidious is faster than Bane, I don't think you can deny that, but in any other physical category- strength, conditioning, endurance, etc, Bane is the definite superior. The orbalisks are also an advantage. This is why I stated that RotS Sidious has a slightly better chance than Bane in close-ranged combat, and Bane would have a definite chance.
Originally posted by Faunus
You have one statement issued by a fallible in-universe character to support the assertion that RotS Sidious is the most powerful Sith in history. Assuming that the statement is concrete and untouchable, it'd be remarkably idiotic of you to suggest that the more "powerful" opponent holds every advantage, as I've already demonstrated that to be untrue.
How about NEC? Visual Dictionary? DS Sourcebook?
But anyway, let's least that advantages of both combatants:
Sidious: Faster, has apparently far better control, technique, and mastery. Also arguably has more raw power.
Bane: Far stronger, has better physical endurance, has plenty of raw power, and his defense is almost unbreakable.
Due to this, I will say that Sidious is the slight superior in both categories, but yeah, RoT Bane has a definite chance of victory.
Originally posted by Faunus
So yes, it can most certainly be argued that Bane has a significant chance of defeating Sidious in personal combat. The consensus towards the thread's topic is absolute, although I'm sure you'll continue to propose that Sion is worthless, and therefore gets taken out in the instant required for Nihilus and Traya to annihilate the Emperor.
Sion has displayed absolutely nothing impressive, and I can't see why Sidious can't take him out in an instant via a quick decapacitation or lightning. They can annihilate him, but since he probably has formidable force defenses, it will take them slightly more than 5 seconds. xD
Originally posted by Faunus
It's clearly the most destructive; I can't recall anyone else ever destroying a massive structure with a telekinetic attack.
Sidious is certainly Kas'im's superior in the Force, but the size of the gap between the two is debatable.
Err... yeah, it's debatable, but I don't think I need to prove proof as to why Sidious absolutely destroys him in force powers. And it doesn't really matter; the wave is Bane's most destructive force ability, and as it was blocked by someone who is Sidious' inferior, logically, Sidious should be able to do the same.
Originally posted by Faunus
That doesn't mean they were using it when Sidious killed them, as you would need to prove in order to support your assertion that his lightning reducing three men to bones is more impressive than Bane's lightning reducing three men and a massive beast to ashes.
The troopers are modified, ergo they're somehow more resistant to lightning?
Yes, they're more resistant to lightning than an ordinary human due to better physical conditioning and superior power. Plus, wouldn't their armor possibly give them a limited amount of protection against direct electricity? However, as I don't know what the armor is made of and its properties, I won't elaborate on that point.
Originally posted by Faunus
And as has been stated before (again, and again, and again), Bane managed to fill an entire hall with lightning an hour after he began learning the technique. Over ten years later, the magnitude of his power would have increased tremendously.
Yup, it would've increased tremenously, but due to the following example, you see how come Sidious' lightning is beyond Bane's.
Originally posted by Faunus
Been over this, too. And the techniques used by Yoda and Worror were not the same, so the situations can't be compared as easily as you would like.
No, they can be compared FAR more easily than you like, and I'm going to prove why. Although I expect you'll stay with you "Uber defensive technique" argument:
Yoda = Far, far more powerful than Worror. Do you at least concede that?
Now the situations; in both situations, the Jedi had to give absolutely everything in order to allow the demise of their opponent; however, in Yoda's case it was the survival of the entire galaxy, and in Worror's, it was the destruction of the Sith; who would go on, anyways, due to Zannah. And due to Yoda being vastly more powerful, more desperate, and actually ALIVE, I think his technique may be... err... slightly more powerful than Worror's.
Originally posted by Faunus
Which means the stormtroopers are defenseless too, genetically modified or not.
I explained exactly why they should have much better defense than the Riders.
Originally posted by Faunus
I swear, I've never encountered anyone on KMC who sets a good first impression, then insists on using such half-assed logic as the crutch for his arguments. It's unbelievable.
I don't know whether to take this as an insult or as a compliment. I respect you, Faunus, but I seriously think that insulting me is completely unnecessary.
Originally posted by Faunus
The troopers were not protected in any way, and neither were the riders. The fact that the clones have had more formalized training doesn't mean they're less susceptible to Sith lightning, nor does it matter. As he's already shown, Bane possesses the ability to telekinetically obliterate an entire temple, which means that his destructive ability there would also apply to "defenseless" non-Force users. Were their positions reversed, Bane could almost certainly accomplish the same feat in multiple ways.
Originally posted by Faunus
Fast learner, but too young to be truly "powerful" in the grand scheme of things. The point is, he mastered the lightning ability in an hour to a higher degree than she had in a much longer period of time.
Which leads us to two possible conclusions; Githany was a pathetic weakling or Bane was extremely powerful. I would assume that Githany wasn't particularly powerful and Bane was prodigious.
Originally posted by Faunus
You clearly know very little about the material; don't argue from ignorance. Bane himself considered Kaan powerful, as he reflects upon in RoT. Kopecz was notably powerful as well, as was Sirak amongst the trainees; the senior Dark Lords has suspected him to be the sith'ari prior to Bane's arrival.
But did they ACTUALLY prove themselves to be powerful? I haven't read the material in a long time, yes, but I'm not completely ignorant. Prove that Kopecz was notably powerful, and show me how Sirak, a trainee, can possibly match Bane circa his fight with Kas'im.
Originally posted by Faunus
Wait: full potential? At thirty-six? You're either joking, or being moronic.
I meant as in the most powerful incarnation of him that we've seen. And besides, 36 is definetly the physical prime of most people.
Originally posted by Faunus
Good job taking things completely out of context. The Jedi he tried to kill with it (Johun) was not the Jedi who deflected the lightning back upon him. Worror was noted as a powerful Jedi Master, and it was his last-ditch effort executed upon an opponent who thought he was dead that managed to succeed.
It's already been done, and multiple times.
You would need to back that statement up if you expect to actually use it, and it's not even remotely relevant to the fight; just you trying to find a way to fellate Sidious some more.
Err.. no, you failed to prove it, but seeing as you can't acknowledge that Yoda, who was also desperate and had to kill Sidious at all costs will likely summon up a defensive technique far more potent than what a half-dead, vastly inferior Jedi would be capable of doing.
My statement regarding Sidious being vastly more skilled in lightsaber combat than Traya, Nihilus, and Sion was proven by me multiple times; it's very relevant, in case they engage in lightsaber combat. Of course, it most likely wouldn't happen, but if they decide to be morons and attack him with their lightsabers, he could probably beat them; he did the same in the space of 10 seconds to three people who are actually known to be highly potent lightsaber fighters.
But anyways, Faunus, if you would like, we can move this debate to RoT Bane vs. DE Sidious, and simply argue on RotS Sidious vs. RoT Bane; it's definetly more relevant there.
The statement taken from the Complete Visual Dictionary is not one from a fallible, in-universe party. By the time of Attack of the Clones, Palpatine is referred to as "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" -- this is before any of his political accomplishments or accolades, clearly not a reference to political influence.
Edit: I would also take the time to point out the unparalleled effect that Palpatine's very presence had on the Force; he was capable of deceiving the collective might of the Jedi Council (whose senior member was the "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known"😉; he was capable of performing rituals that increased anxiety on the aforementioned Grandmaster and numerous other Jedi Knights; he was the "darkness" in the Force that was blunting Jedi perception and even diminishing their ability to use the Force (according to Mace Windu in AotC).
And no... nothing directly points to the conclusion that Nihilus walked up, said a few gibberish words, and drained the entire planet with a single usage of the force.
Exept that Visas, his apprentice, said that he did.
a guy who just learned force lightning isn't going to be able to do it at Sidious-level potency immediately. It's far more likely that the lightning's actual power isn't particularly high; I'm simply being logical, not trying to say it wasn't impressive. And you clearly aren't being logical in this case.
No, it makes it sem that if he can match him after one hour, then he can exceed him after ten years.
I'm going to imitate you and tell you to "prove it!"
The very fact that he didn't turn himself to ash, which was his less powerful, 10 yrs younger versions best usage of the attack, proves that he wasn't trying to go full out. Plus its well documented that Sith like to play with their meat first.
Anakin isn't a trained force user? Yeah. As stated here, Subatomic Manipulations were most likely also accomplished by Sidious, as he also created a holocron and both would most likely chose the most efficient way to do it. It doesn't require any particular power, just control; and as you admit Sidious is Bane's technical superior, you see how there is absolutely no reason why Sidious wouldn't be able to accomplish the same.
Likely, mabye. Proven, no. Their are any number of ways thet Sidious could have created that Holocron without using the force, including creating it synthetically in one of the numerous farctories and workshops located in his domain.
And Sidious is faster than Bane,
I laugh at this. Moving as 'a blur' isn't that impressive when compared to 'time stood still' Bane.
Now the situations; in both situations, the Jedi had to give absolutely everything in order to allow the demise of their opponent; however, in Yoda's case it was the survival of the entire galaxy, and in Worror's, it was the destruction of the Sith; who would go on, anyways, due to Zannah. And due to Yoda being vastly more powerful, more desperate, and actually ALIVE, I think his technique may be... err... slightly more powerful than Worror's.
Yoda used a normal Force shield, Worror used some freaky blue shield crap that actualyy materialised visibly. Theirs no way to compare the two. Plus, Worror WAS powerful and threw everything into that attack, Yoda clearly didn't as He wasn't even breathing heavily afterwards. Plus being half-dead doesn't mean that your less powerful, Sion didn't seem to care.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Exept that Visas, his apprentice, said that he did.
And while Vader, a being that resents Sidious and seeks numerous ways to defeat him, is fallible, Visas, an apprentice that was IN ABSOLUTE AWE of Nihilus' power was perfectly objective. Right. And can you really prove that Nihilus didn't use a prolonged ritual in order to unleash his drain all over the planet? Doubt it.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
No, it makes it sem that if he can match him after one hour, then he can exceed him after ten years.
Yeah. If the size of the attack is all that mattered, then yeah, he would match him- but the only indicator of its strength was a not exceptionally powerful Sith. The fact is, I SERIOUSLY doubt Bane will be able to pull off Sidious-level lightning one hour after he learned his technique.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The very fact that he didn't turn himself to ash, which was his less powerful, 10 yrs younger versions best usage of the attack, proves that he wasn't trying to go full out. Plus its well documented that Sith like to play with their meat first.
And that's why he didn't immediately kill Johun with his saber; err, no, his lightning was going at killing intensity at Johun, while afterwards, I see no reason why he wouldn't enhance the intensity when he realized he was in danger, like Sidious did against Vader. And by the way, Bane was protected by the orbalisks and had his natural force defenses against the attack, otherwise he would most certainly have been ashed.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Likely, mabye. Proven, no. Their are any number of ways thet Sidious could have created that Holocron without using the force, including creating it synthetically in one of the [b]numerous farctories and workshops located in his domain.[/B]
While that's true, you can't prove a large amount of your points. But I don't have much knowledge of Sidious' creation of the holocrons and such, so I'll drop this point, simply due to my lack of information. Maybe someone else can pick it up.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I laugh at this. Moving as 'a blur' isn't that impressive when compared to 'time stood still' Bane.
Sidious was a blur to the point that Anakin Skywalker, a being who is the VAST superior to the people who attacked Bane, and had the highest known raw power in galactic history, saw only Sidious' saber- in addition, every time Sidious is seen fighting, his speed is mentioned. Also note that in his fight against Yoda- which couldn't have had the invisible people-level speed due to the fact that it was movie- Sidious was still portrayed as one of the absolute fastest attackers within the movie saga. In DE, meanwhile, Sidious' duel with Luke was so fast he could not even be seen- and due to the fact that Sidious' mastery of the force is greater than Bane's, there no reason why he shouldn't use force speed to a higher degree than Bane.
On another note, Bane's style- Djem So- was based on strength, while both of Sidious' generally accepted fighting styles- Ataru and Juyo- rely on speed and unpredictability.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Yoda used a normal Force shield, Worror used some freaky blue shield crap that actualyy materialised visibly. Theirs no way to compare the two. Plus, Worror WAS powerful and threw everything into that attack, Yoda clearly didn't as He wasn't even breathing heavily afterwards. Plus being half-dead doesn't mean that your less powerful, Sion didn't seem to care.
Now it's my turn to say 'lol' about what you said; Yoda was ABSOLUTELY giving his everything into the attack, as seen when he clearly looked pained and desperate when he was trying to block the attack- he needed to kill Sidious more than anything else, far more than Worror needed to kill Bane, and was also FAR more powerful than Worror. In addition, duirng the tunnel escape part, Yoda is clearly shown to be very tired, actually panting.
And as the best documented surviving half-dead person in the saga, Vader, lost much of his potential and his power, I see no reason why Worror, who was even more critically wounded than Mustafar Vader and had no life support systems would be capable of summoning a powerful defensive barrier.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy"Far?" So we're just tacking on favorable adjectives now? No, at best, Sidious has a notable, if minor, advantage here, and it's certainly not going to be an absolutely deciding factor.
But anyway, let's least that advantages of both combatants:Sidious: Faster, has apparently far better control, technique, and mastery.
Also arguably has more raw power.I'd love to see you substantiate that claim.
Err... yeah, it's debatable, but I don't think I need to prove proof as to why Sidious absolutely destroys him in force powers. And it doesn't really matter; the wave is Bane's most destructive force ability, and as it was blocked by someone who is Sidious' inferior, logically, Sidious should be able to do the same.His most destructive ability as of PoD. You really need to learn to keep your time periods in line.
Yes, they're more resistant to lightning than an ordinary human due to better physical conditioning and superior power.The beast rider live in the jungle and ride twenty-meter monsters for transportation; their own "conditioning" is nothing to scoff at. And this point is pretty much completely irrelevant, because any real difference in resistance would be minute.
And what "power"?
No, they can be compared FAR more easily than you like, and I'm going to prove why. Although I expect you'll stay with you "Uber defensive technique" argument:Covered below.Yoda = Far, far more powerful than Worror. Do you at least concede that?
Now the situations; in both situations, the Jedi had to give absolutely everything in order to allow the demise of their opponent; however, in Yoda's case it was the survival of the entire galaxy, and in Worror's, it was the destruction of the Sith; who would go on, anyways, due to Zannah. And due to Yoda being vastly more powerful, more desperate, and actually ALIVE, I think his technique may be... err... slightly more powerful than Worror's.
I explained exactly why they should have much better defense than the Riders.And that explanation falls flat on its face, because it's pretty stupid.
I don't know whether to take this as an insult or as a compliment.Insult.
I respect you, Faunus, but I seriously think that insulting me is completely unnecessary.I'm trying not to, believe me, but you're being excruciatingly dense.
Which leads us to two possible conclusions; Githany was a pathetic weakling or Bane was extremely powerful. I would assume that Githany wasn't particularly powerful and Bane was prodigious.Or, Githany was notably talented and Bane just blew her out of the water.
We've actually seen very few people (read: Skywalkers) with such an affinity for the Force, so the fact that Bane was so much faster than Githany shouldn't count against her.
But did they ACTUALLY prove themselves to be powerful? I haven't read the material in a long time, yes, but I'm not completely ignorant.You had me fooled.
Prove that Kopecz was notably powerful,He dispatches some of the most elite security in the galaxy with such ease that the best of them manages to get off two shots, and kills a Jedi Knight with Sith lightning instantly while casually Force-choking another to death.
and show me how Sirak, a trainee, can possibly match Bane circa his fight with Kas'im.Never even implied that.
I meant as in the most powerful incarnation of him that we've seen. And besides, 36 is definetly the physical prime of most people.Which means jack all in Star Wars. You think Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, or Luke (as of LotF) are anywhere close to their physical primes?
But we should let this pass, as it has no bearing on the fight.
Err.. no, you failed to prove it, but seeing as you can't acknowledge that Yoda, who was also desperate and had to kill Sidious at all costs will likely summon up a defensive technique far more potent than what a half-dead, vastly inferior Jedi would be capable of doing.I proved it definitively, actually. You're looking only at what the Jedi did, and from an uninformed and skewed viewpoint, while completely ignoring the circumstances at hand and what was going on with their respective Sith opponents.
My statement regarding Sidious being vastly more skilled in lightsaber combat than Traya, Nihilus, and Sion was proven by me multiple times; it's very relevant, in case they engage in lightsaber combat. Of course, it most likely wouldn't happen, but if they decide to be morons and attack him with their lightsabers, he could probably beat them; he did the same in the space of 10 seconds to three people who are actually known to be highly potent lightsaber fighters.Well I'm not arguing that Sidious wouldn't beat any of them individually, but you keep making things out to complete ownage on his part, which is both unnecessary and often factually wrong
Sion isn't some muppet, as you would apparently like him to be. He does have a lightsaber, and is backed by two of the most overwhelmingly powerful Sith in history. Sidious would get annihilated before he could open his mouth to do that ludicrous scream w/ spinning thing.
Sion has displayed absolutely nothing impressive, and I can't see why Sidious can't take him out in an instant via a quick decapacitation or lightning. They can annihilate him, but since he probably has formidable force defenses, it will take them slightly more than 5 seconds. xD
Originally posted by Sidi-BoyClearly, you don't understand what the burden of proof is. You made a claim that has no basis in fact; me telling you to prove it requires you to do so, or concede the point. I don't have to prove that he "didn't" do something, especially when nothing contradicts the point but your own unwillingness to believe it.
And while Vader, a being that resents Sidious and seeks numerous ways to defeat him, is fallible, Visas, an apprentice that was IN ABSOLUTE AWE of Nihilus' power was perfectly objective. Right. And can you really prove that Nihilus didn't use a prolonged ritual in order to unleash his drain all over the planet? Doubt it.
Yeah. If the size of the attack is all that mattered, then yeah, he would match him- but the only indicator of its strength was a not exceptionally powerful Sith. The fact is, I SERIOUSLY doubt Bane will be able to pull off Sidious-level lightning one hour after he learned his technique.1) No one called it "Sidious-level." I pointed out that such a demonstration occurred an hour after he'd begun learning the technique, and that logically, over a decade later his power and control would've grown considerably.
2) You made the rather foolish assertion that lightning produced in larger quantities would have "minimal" power:
Originally posted by You
and fill up a large room, when it is likely that the lightning's power was only minimal
And that's why he didn't immediately kill Johun with his saber; err, no, his lightning was going at killing intensity at Johun, while afterwards, I see no reason why he wouldn't enhance the intensity when he realized he was in danger, like Sidious did against Vader. And by the way, Bane was protected by the orbalisks and had his natural force defenses against the attack, otherwise he would most certainly have been ashed.This is why we read the material before debating it.
1) Killing intensity =/= full power, unless you actually need to completely pulverize / disintegrate someone to kill them. Never mind that the target is, at this point, a crippled weakling.
2) Bane didn't realize he was in danger, as I've already told you at least twice. Worror - who he thought was dead - had gathered all of his power for one last effort at stopping Bane, and when the Sith casually fired off the lightning to finish off Johun, he created a tight blue orb that entrapped the lightning and caused to rebound into Bane.
3) Force defenses aren't always active, and just being Force-sensitive doesn't make one resistant to Force-based elements.
4) Bane was not protected by the orbalisks, and I'm incredibly surprised that after at least three people have told you so multiple times, you haven't gotten it through your head yet. It was the orbalisks that crippled him; unlike Bane himself, the creatures couldn't withstand the lightning, as electricity is the only known thing that can kill them (even then, it requires either special application or extreme intensity, i.e. "millions" of volts). When they were dying, they began digging even deeper into his flesh and bone before releasing toxins that were presumably deadlier than one of the most dangerous synthetic poisons in the galaxy (see PoD).
While that's true, you can't prove a large amount of your points.I've proven pretty much all of mine, whether you're willing to accept that or not.
Sidious was a blur to the point that Anakin Skywalker,Which was stated in an N-Canon section of the book. And don't give me the "GL approved it" BS. It didn't happen in the movie, so it doesn't matter.
a being who is the VAST superior to the people who attacked Bane, and had the highest known raw power in galactic history,Completely irrelevant, since Anakin couldn't even beat Obi-Wan in contests of speed (dueling) or power.
in addition, every time Sidious is seen fighting, his speed is mentioned.And every time Yoda fights, the fact that he's short and green is mentioned. Wow.
Sidious was still portrayed as one of the absolute fastest attackers within the movie saga.Which doesn't matter, because the speeds we see in the movies are not representative of what actually was.
In DE, meanwhile, Sidious' duel with Luke was so fast he could not even be seen-Bane, at 25.
and due to the fact that Sidious' mastery of the force is greater than Bane's, there no reason why he shouldn't use force speed to a higher degree than Bane.Except that, in his early twenties, Bane was capable of moving at speeds beyond the perceptions of other trained Force-users. As in they couldn't see him.
Now it's my turn to say 'lol' about what you said; Yoda was ABSOLUTELY giving his everything into the attack, as seen when he clearly looked pained and desperate when he was trying to block the attack- he needed to kill Sidious more than anything else, far more than Worror needed to kill Bane, and was also FAR more powerful than Worror. In addition, duirng the tunnel escape part, Yoda is clearly shown to be very tired, actually panting.Uh, again, different techniques, completely different circumstances.
Worror:
- Bane thought he was dead
- burst not aimed at him
- lightning presumably not at full power
- didn't block head-on, used a unique "orb" technique to trap lightning in close proximity to the Sith
Yoda:
- Sidious was, clearly, fully aware of his presence
- faced a blast aimed directly at him
- lightning was at full power
- blocked it head-on, with his bare hands, and forced it back upon Sidious
And as the best documented surviving half-dead person in the saga, Vader, lost much of his potential and his power, I see no reason why Worror, who was even more critically wounded than Mustafar Vader and had no life support systems would be capable of summoning a powerful defensive barrier.You're just full of surprises.
So getting your throat slashed is more "critical" than losing every single limb and being burned to a crisp in lava to the extent that you need every sensory or vital organ replaced or synthetically augmented.
News to me.
And I'm pretty sure one of Sidious' most powerful displays of lightning occurred when he was at death's door: namely, killing two Jedi with one burst each. Physical condition, to some extent, doesn't affect one's power output.
Originally posted by Faunus
"Far?" So we're just tacking on favorable adjectives now? No, at best, Sidious has a notable, if minor, advantage here, and it's certainly not going to be an absolutely deciding factor.
It's a notable advantage, as seen by the comparison of RotS Sidious' most impressive force feat and Bane's most impressive force feat. In Sidious' case, it's arguably the clouding of the entire force and the destruction of the Jedi's precognition capabilities, causing them to be blinded and leave him undetected, in addition to increasing the power of the dark side- such a thing should require very fine and apt control. More so, Bane's most impressive feat, once again, arguably, is the direction and pinpointing of the massive attack used by the 25 Sith; such a thing should require an immense amount of power in order to actually handle that force, but probably less control than the clouding thing. Sidious' control could very well be the winning factor of the fight.
Originally posted by Faunus
I'd love to see you substantiate that claim.
I said arguably for a reason, and if there's a difference, there isn't a notable one. As one's inherent power (raw power) shouldn't be able to actually be increased, then DE Sidious' force storms should very possibly be the EPITOME of raw power- it would require an incredible amount of raw power to summon that up. However, Bane had also displayed some highly impressive feats regarding raw power, so I don't think there's enough evidence to truly prove either superior to the other.
Originally posted by Faunus
His most destructive ability as of PoD. You really need to learn to keep your time periods in line.
As of PoD, yes, and did he really display anything stronger in RoT? If so, enlighten me.
Originally posted by Faunus
The beast rider live in the jungle and ride twenty-meter monsters for transportation; their own "conditioning" is nothing to scoff at. And this point is pretty much completely irrelevant, because any real difference in resistance would be minute.
Accurate. It's not to 'scoff' at, but nevertheless, armored, enhanced, and very well conditioned stormtroopers should have at least slightly better defenses than those Riders.
Originally posted by Faunus
Insult.
How charming.
Originally posted by Faunus
I'm trying not to, believe me, but you're being excruciatingly dense.
Great, I apprecitate the 'attempts'. But I really don't see how I'm being 'excruciatingly dense', as you put it, but whatever. This is a debate, not a "Who is the better basher" fight. If it was, believe me, my attitude would be slightly different.
Originally posted by Faunus
Or, Githany was notably talented and Bane just blew her out of the water.
Or that. But you will have to prove to me Githany was a powerful fighter; personally, I'd say she was competent, but definetly not exactly powerful.
Originally posted by Faunus
We've actually seen very few people (read: Skywalkers) with such an affinity for the Force, so the fact that Bane was so much faster than Githany shouldn't count against her.
It should count both against HER and for HIM. If someone who trained for one hour surpassed someone who trained for a much longer period of time, it's definetly saying something about BOTH of them.
Originally posted by Faunus
You had me fooled.
Hooray. Some more of the witty insults.
Originally posted by Faunus
He dispatches some of the most elite security in the galaxy with such ease that the best of them manages to get off two shots, and kills a Jedi Knight with Sith lightning instantly while casually Force-choking another to death.
Interesting. Were those Knights any good?
Originally posted by Faunus
Which means jack all in Star Wars. You think Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, or Luke (as of LotF) are anywhere close to their physical primes?
DE Sidious is at his physical prime, and we saw exactly how that helped him; RotS Sidious is definetly beyond his prime, so he can't use the same level of strength and endurance as he could in his prime; his speed was gained only by extreme usage of the force.
Originally posted by Faunus
I proved it definitively, actually. You're looking only at what the Jedi did, and from an uninformed and skewed viewpoint, while completely ignoring the circumstances at hand and what was going on with their respective Sith opponents.
No, you're refusing to understand the fact that a half-dead- yes, it COUNTS- Jedi could fully deflect Bane's lightning while the most powerful Jedi in HISTORY was incapable of doing the same to Sidious' lightning.
Originally posted by Faunus
Sion isn't some muppet, as you would apparently like him to be. He does have a lightsaber, and is backed by two of the most overwhelmingly powerful Sith in history. Sidious would get annihilated before he could open his mouth to do that ludicrous scream w/ spinning thing.
But Sion, being probably the least intelligent and powerful of the trio, is likely to charge him with the lightsaber, and Sidious could simply destroy him in a saber fight. But yeah, it doesn't really matter.
Darth Exodus, do me a favor and don't intervene in this argument unless you have something good to say. And that's not saying that Obi-Wan matched it at 18, when DE Sidious' and Luke's duel was so fast it was seen as an extreme blur, invisible to all, and was stated to be the greatest duel in history, bar none (I personally disagree, but w/e, as it was officially stated). And Sidious' blur-level speed and viciousness was FAR beyond anything Obi-Wan achieved.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Partually becuase of time, but also for you, I will be glad to stand back and watch you make half-assed arguments like the one above. Cao
You might as well enjoy yourself, Exodus, watching me make "half-assed arguments like the ones above" explaining why Bane isn't the ultimate being, after all. Though I doubt I will shatter your fantasy.
You know what, Faunus? I'm going to, rather than counter each one of your points individually and boringly, going to write an 'essay' of sorts and explain to you percisely why I think Sidious is the slight superior in both force powers and saber abilities- don't get me wrong, I think you believe I said that Sidious would easily defeat Bane, which is just BS. I have to be a serious fanboy in order to believe something like that. But first of all:
Originally posted by Faunus
Which was stated in an N-Canon section of the book. And don't give me the "GL approved it" BS. It didn't happen in the movie, so it doesn't matter.
Completely irrelevant, since Anakin couldn't even beat Obi-Wan in contests of speed (dueling) or power.
Err... yeah, GL APPROVED it. According to the author, GL read it word-by-word and approved everything in it; according to McDiarmid, who I doubt would lie, Sidious was said, in the script, to be one of the fastest swordsmen around. Think of it as what Anakin would see if he saw the duel; if GL didn't intend Sidious to be a blindingly fast swordsmen, he would've had it REMOVED.
And Obi-Wan was hardly a slouch; although he wasn't particularly competent in the force, his saber skills were some of the best around and he was pretty fast. Anakin simply couldn't penetrate his Soresu defenses; in addition, Djem So is based on power, not speed, and Anakin was still extremely fast.
Going on your points as to how the character's speed in the movie doesn't count, then how do you explain the fact that each character's fighting style seems to be very close to the EU counterparts of it (other than Mace). Obi-Wan was very defensive, Dooku used primarily one-handed Makashi movements, Anakin used brute force and Grievous used his blade-spinning tricks; thus, I'd personally say that the movie's depiction of the swordfights is VERY relevant; Mace's slow speed in the movie is often seen as non-canon because he's depicted as very fast in most EU sources. Meanwhile, Sidious was extremely fast in the movie and in absolutely every EU Source; speed is the only definete advantage Sidious has in swordsmanship. And to Gideon; I personally believe Sidious is a Juyo practician, but Ataru, based on descriptions of his fights, is also a likely candidate for Sidious' fighting style.
Anyway, moving on; now for the actual essay part, since I'm tired of boringly countering every one of your points and simply pissing you off more and more. As I've stated before, I respect you and therefore do not wish to engage you in 'bashing contests'. Now then:
Sabers: As I've stated multiple times, Sidious should have a slight advantage of pure skill in the sabers- Bane has the orbalisks, but Sidious, being a smart, calculated, and very technical fighter should probably find a way to overcome Bane's natural barrier. But to be objective; I will post a list of feats and reasonings that will state both Bane's and Sidious' advantages.
Sidious:
-When Sidious engaged in combat with three of the most powerful swordfighters in history- you can't deny that- he effortlessly outduelled them all while simultaneously fighting with Mace Windu, a being who was a good candidate- along with some other people, like Sidious, Bane, and Yoda- for the best sword duelist up until NJO. Sidious killed them all VERY quickly, and was described as a blur in the fight.
-Sidious stalemated Yoda in lightsaber combat, when Yoda was considered to be the strongest Jedi in history AND the best sword duelist in the order; he even maintained the offensive for the majority of the fight, and once again fought with extreme speed.
-Was stated by Nick Gillard to be a master of every style, already placing his technical knowledge beyond Bane, and was called a 'level 9'; the highest level a swordfighter could achieve. And yes, NG is very much canon.
-Sidious' speed will ultimately be his greatest advantage in the fight- Sidious is arguably, among some few others, the fastest fighter in history and is EVERY SINGLE TIME described as moving with incredible speed. His amazing force powers basically amplify his speed, and his likely style- Juyo- is based on speed, so will all of these factors, I think we can safely conclude that he is, at least, slightly faster than Bane.
Bane:
-When he had perfect knowledge of his enemy, he came very close to defeating who was arguably the best swordfighter in history up to that point, but was later defeated in sabers by Kas'im; this was well before RoT, so therefore, I believe that he should be at least capable of matching dual-sabers Kas'im by that point.
-Managed to simultaneously fight off one extremely skilled Jedi and one somewhat skilled Jedi, despite them having BM on; while Raskta is a highly impressive combatant on her own, Farfalla isn't one of THE BEST ever. Ultimately, using his brute, incredible power, he was capable of knocking them away, and despite nearly losing to BMed Raskta, he ultimately managed to get the upper hand and after Zannah sneak-attacked Raskta, was able to defeat his opposition.
-Was a SUPERB master of Djem So.
-Now then, like Sidious has his speed, Bane's absolute greatest advantage is his orbalisks, along with his brute strength; through that, he will probably force Sidious to his limit due to his nigh-impenetrate defense; though, provided Sidious can create an opening with his blade, he could hit Bane with a one-handed gout of lightning, which will end the fight.
So, overall, seeing these points I personally came to the conclusion that Sidious is Bane's slight superior in technical knowledge and speed, while Bane is stronger and better protected than Sidious; however, Sidious, having effectively beat and stalemated (Mace Windu, by his own admission, was being overwhelmed and could only match Sidious until broken window/shatterpoint came into play) some of the greatest swordsmen in history, should be capable of scraping a victory 6/10 times or so. Nothing too notable, just a slight advantage.
Now then, I'll admit; I'm a lot less apt in arguments regarding force abilities than saber skills, so I'll do my best to argue for Sidious' once again, SLIGHT dominance in this field. I'll use the same format as my previous argument.
Sidious:
-His lightning was capable of nearly overpowering the STRONGEST JEDI IN HISTORY, who was an EXPERT in the force.
-Was capable of utilizing rituals that clouded the minds of an entire planet and summoned up devastating, highly damaging lightning storms throughout Coruscant.
-Most impressively, his sheer presence had the capacity of completely changing the face of the entire force itself, clouding the Jedi's vision and thus allowing both himself to go unnoticed and grow more powerful, along with the dark side.
-His very presence, from Coruscant, was able to corrupt Byss into one of the most powerful Dark Side bastions in history, where he mind-controlled a very large amount of people.
-Was capable of mass-killing armored, genetically-enhanced troopers and reducing trained force-sensitives to ashes.
-Sidious' own power and dark side energies ravaged his mortal frame from inside, disfiguring him to a greater extent than any Sith before him.
Bane:
-Was capable of using lightning, after one hour, that filled up a decent sized and surpassed the lightning of a fairly ordinary Sith. It's my personal belief that his lightning shouldn't have been particularly powerful at that point, but nontheless, it was a highly impressive display.
-Was capable of using sub-atomic manipulations to create holocrons, showing immense control; it's likely Sidious could've done the same with his holocron, but I can't prove it.
-Had the ability to channel and handle the attack of 25 other Sith Lords and use a planet-destroying burst of energy to deforest an entire planet.
-Had his lightning overpowered by Worror; I'll get to this argument later on in the page.
-Was capable of reducing people to ashes with his highly potent force lightning.
-Used uber force pushes, that despite being blocked by Sidious' inferior, might be able to take him by surprise and give Bane an advantage.
Once again, I personally believe that Sidious' demonstrated power- in addition to the quotes supporting the fact that he was a force beast- slightly surpasses Bane, particularly the mind-manipulation powers he displays and his control over the entire force, something no one else in history ever replicated.
Now for a most controversial subject of our argument; Bane vs. Worror/Sidious vs. Yoda. I've already told you the condition of both people; Worror was half-dead, severely injured, and was never displayed to be particularly potent force user, while Yoda was the greatest Jedi in history and although he was perhaps slightly tired, he was uninjured in any way. Regardless, Worror did take Bane by surprise and used a technique that is perhaps more potent than Yoda's.
However, Yoda was far more desperate than Worror in this situation. Worror was dying, anyways, and he most definetly knew it, and thus unleashed a last-ditch effort to stop the Sith, while it was Yoda's last chance; and I meant LAST, especially after he lost his lightsaber- to defeat Sidious. As such, he would logically give his all into the attack and do his best to overpower Sidious, something he failed to do. Regardless, while it's very much possible Bane's lightning wasn't at full-power, it would definetly be aimed at killing intensity and seeing the damage it did to himself; it could almost definetly disinegrate Johun if it did hit him. The protection bubble, while impressive, still can't be compared to the barrier a healthy, much stronger Jedi could summon up; while Worror's technique was a bubble of sorts, the fact still stands that I seriously don't believe that a far more potent, less injured, and more desperate Jedi would be capable of summoning.
For all of these reasons, I believe that Sidious' is ultimately Bane's superior in force powers; this is also enforced by him being canonically the most powerful Sith Lord in history.