The kotor 2 triumvirate vs rots siddious

Originally posted by Faunus
[B]It's clearly the most destructive; I can't recall anyone else ever destroying a massive structure with a telekinetic attack.

Also, on the subject of Palpatine to Bane: the NEC is not the only thing backing Palpatine up against Bane...we do know that Bane based his entire order around pupils growing more powerful than the Masters and it was meant so that the Master explicitly chooses pupils with potential to surpass them-Palpatine likely made exceptions with 'placeholder' apprentices such as Maul and Dooku- and Bane felt Zannah could indeed have surpassed him at her full realized potential.

There's also Heritage of the Sith which refers to Palpatine as the most powerful Sith in 'over a thousand years' when his plan is put in to motion, the detail that Palpatine has the Holocron containing all of Bane's dark side knowwledge, as well as the Dark Side sourcebook saying the most powerful of Bane's order is Palpatine.

Before we do this again, thanks for being as calm as you were: I don't mean to be rude, it just tends to happen in these things.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
You know what, Faunus? I'm going to, rather than counter each one of your points individually and boringly, going to write an 'essay' of sorts and explain to you percisely why I think Sidious is the slight superior in both force powers and saber abilities-

Err... yeah, GL APPROVED it. According to the author, GL read it word-by-word and approved everything in it; according to McDiarmid, who I doubt would lie, Sidious was said, in the script, to be one of the fastest swordsmen around. Think of it as what Anakin would see if he saw the duel; if GL didn't intend Sidious to be a blindingly fast swordsmen, he would've had it REMOVED.

Going on your points as to how the character's speed in the movie doesn't count, then how do you explain the fact that each character's fighting style seems to be very close to the EU counterparts of it (other than Mace). Obi-Wan was very defensive, Dooku used primarily one-handed Makashi movements, Anakin used brute force and Grievous used his blade-spinning tricks; thus, I'd personally say that the movie's depiction of the swordfights is VERY relevant;

Mace's slow speed in the movie is often seen as non-canon because he's depicted as very fast in most EU sources.

Meanwhile, Sidious was extremely fast in the movie and in absolutely every EU Source; speed is the only definete advantage Sidious has in swordsmanship. And to Gideon; I personally believe Sidious is a Juyo practician, but Ataru, based on descriptions of his fights, is also a likely candidate for Sidious' fighting style.

I'm tired of boringly countering every one of your points and simply pissing you off more and more.

--

Now for the rest, in "essay" form:

The Worror issue. Here's the segment, from RoT:

A shimmering blue globe surrounded them both as the mortally wounded Jedi released his own power in his final, dying act.

Instead of arcing across the room to destroy the one-armed Jedi, the lightning that flew from Bane's fingers reflected off the inside of the shimmering blue globe encasing him. The bolts ricocheted around wildly inside the globe, creating a storm of energy so intense that Zannah had to shield her eyes and look away. She heard Bane's scream rising above the sharp crackle of electricity, and when she looked back she saw the globe vanish and her Master fall to the ground in a charred and smoking heap.

If that at all resembles Yoda's shield, I'll eat a giraffe. While both were using all of their available power, the way in which each handled their respective opponent's lightning, as well as the actual intensity - which I'll discuss later - vary tremendously.

By the way, I saw that you again mentioned Bane's "protection" against his own lightning; the orbalisks offer none, and their toxins only worsened his condition. The effect of poisons coupled with his own lightning - which apparently vaporized his clothes and charred his skin - knocked him into a coma, not the reflected Force attack alone.

Moving on - the following discussion of Raskta Lsu lays some of the groundwork for my argument:

Master Raskta Lsu, an Echani, sat at the controls of her ship. She had the alabaster skin, pure white hair, and silver eyes common to all her species. She was almost as tall as Johun, with the muscles and physique one would expect in a species that valued physical combat as the highest form of art and personal expression. Named in honor of the legendary Echani warrior Raskta Fenni, acclaimed by many to be the greatest duelist of her time, Master Raskta had spent her life honing her martial skills so that she could one day equal, and even surpass, her namesake.

She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master. Eschewing all other fields of study and forsaking the development of her other Force talents to focus exclusively on the lightsaber and combat, she had transformed herself into a living weapon.

Now tasked with training apprentices in the forms of lightsaber combat, Raskta had been part of the campaign on Ruusan. Wielding a blue-bladed lightsaber in each hand, and shunning any form of armor, she was a terrifying figure to behold on the battlefield. Johun vividly remembered her carving great swaths of destruction through the heart of the enemy ranks, leaving a litter of bodies in her wake. It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb.

Emphasis mine. Clearly, she's formidable. And even backed by Worror's battle meditation, with Farfalla basically running interference with the Force, she never had a chance against Bane.

One of Zannah's observations, before Worror enters his meditative trance:

To her surprise, both of Bane's opponents were still standing; proof they were exceptionally skilled combatants.

Mind you, Zannah had gotten her own ass tooled in seconds when she went up against a ticked off Bane, so she would know.

A note on the effect of Worror's battle meditation:

It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might.

Now to tie some of these together - namely, this issue about Worror. As seen above, his battle meditation had a profound impact on its targets, making them "quicker and stronger" to the point that this occurs:

Then, [Farfalla], too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power.

The BM heightens his power to the point that the "exceptionally skilled" warrior was capable of evading an attack that, otherwise, would've left him a broken mess, trampled into the ground.

*On a quick side note, this also serves as a demonstration of Bane's own considerable speed - he almost managed to kill two Jedi Masters, with the aforementioned narrative praise attributed to both, by running them over, and apparently Farfalla only managed to escape death because of Worror's "amazing talent." That, and the fact that he was easily capable of sprinting at speeds in excess of 120 kilometers per hour over appreciable distances.

Back to the main point; his superiority over the two Jedi Masters, one of whom is decidedly amazing, with the other being at least exceptional - both before being empowered by BM.

Raskta was already back on her feet and flying through the air toward him. Bane spun and threw a wave of invisible dark side power at her. A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks. The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Farfalla not thrown up a shield to protect the Echani. Even so her muscular body was plucked from the air and hurtled backward, though she twisted and turned so she landed on her feet.

Raskta's focus was earlier stated to be in the dueling arts, and she ignored any Force-training that didn't involve empowering her own physical form, so her weak Force defense is understandable. But even Farfalla's ability couldn't negate a rather casual Force-push from Bane. And I say casual because a previous Force wave in the novel, used ten years before the duel, did this:

Still twirling his light-saber, Bane thrust his empty hand out before him, palm extended as he unleashed the Force in a wave of concussive power at the woman fleeing to his left. The wave cut a swath of devastation through the camp. Tents were uprooted from the ground, their material torn and shredded. Wooden supply crates exploded into kindling, the shattered contents spraying out in a shower of splintered shrapnel.

The Force wave slammed into the woman's back, pulverizing her spine and snapping her neck as it drove her facedown into the dirt and pinned her against the ground. Her corpse twitched once, then went forever still.

A defenseless opponent - pretty much what Master Lsu is, in this case - was simply pulverized, as was everything struck by the massive wave. Of course, he blew down an entire temple, too, as we've discussed many times.

Almost immediately after said attack on Raskta, we have the second important piece leading to my conclusion in the "Worror Issue":

Farfalla saw the Sith Lord turn toward him, sensing the intervention that had saved Raskta's life. Bane unleashed a barrage of Sith lightning, gathering and releasing his power at the speed of thought. The Jedi threw up a Force barrier to shield himself, but the electricity tore right through it and arced toward him. Then suddenly Raskta was there to save his life, repaying a debt that was only a few seconds old as she threw herself in front of him. Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.

The bolded segment is the most important; Farfalla's usage of the Force shield technique that Yoda most likely utilized - and clearly, one that is nothing like Worror's blue orb - failed miserably against Bane. There wasn't even a struggle, as the lightning "tore right through it". And seeing as how Bane's fairly casual Force-push would've crushed Raskta instantly without Farfalla's assistance, and that this particular burst of lightning ripped apart the latter's Force defenses, we can pursue and analyze the following conclusions:

A] This one operates under your logic. If, as you claim, the lightning that would later be used against Johun was the best Bane had - which would mean that the blast demonstrated here couldn't have been any stronger - then a "half-dead" Worror is far superior to Farfalla in Force ability, as apparently mortally wounded Force-users aren't capable of exerting their full power or effort, despite the example of mine that used Sidious in Empire's End as a focal point.

But of course, there are several problems with this one.

- For one, Johun was a whimpering wreck lying on the ground; it would have been completely unnecessary for Bane to push his own limits while applying that one last lightning burst to finish the Jedi off, and Bane is nothing if not efficient. So the attack he used in his attempt to kill Johun was not an all-out effort on his part.

- Two, I've shown that Force-users are capable of rather extreme feats even an inch from death. So Worror being "half-dead" means jack shit.

- Three, the techniques used by Worror and Farfalla / Yoda are completely different. This is evident even in their visible depictions; you cannot argue this.

B] Bane wasn't exerting himself fully in either his Force-push against Raskta or his lightning assault on Johun. This is backed by all the above, which includes text taken directly from RoT. Drawing on this, we can see that Worror's final offensive on Bane, which would have utilized the Jedi's full power, was not an example of someone "overpowering" Bane in any way.

Clearly, B] is the correct conclusion in light of all available evidence.

--

God damn that's long, although it concludes the Yoda v. Sidious / Worror v. Bane debate.

All that said, I see no need to go after sabers, too, although I'll leave with these few points:

- Sidious' consummate knowledge of the lightsaber forms is offset by Bane's complete knowledge of them. He knows, literally, every single possible combination that someone using a single- or double-bladed saber can use to the extent that he was tooling Kas'im - the guy who'd spent decades mastering and refining all seven forms - before the dual-saber card was pulled.

- Any speed advantage, if present at all in this point in time, is negligible at best, given Bane's own prodigious speed and his ridiculous advantage in every other physical category.

- The point about a physical prime - namely, your example using DE Sidious - is redundant, as said Sith Lord spent about three decades refining and expanding his mastery of the Force between RotS and DE. This wasn't RotS Sidious in a younger body against Luke, it was a more experienced man with more acquired power and a younger body.

I don't exactly have a load of time, so I'll just counter on of your points thast doesn't require much deep thinking on my part ^^.

Originally posted by Faunus Anakin and Obi-Wan fought considerably faster than Sidious ever did in the movie, so this doesn't really work.

In the Mace duel? He fought slower than them. In the Yoda duel? He fought just as fast, if not faster, at least later on in the last engagement on the pod when it finished rising. But we can't really prove it, so it's just a matter of observation and all.

We also do have to recall Bane has a distinct issue in a duel with incredible Jedi: the ability to fight without any issues of self preservation. Albeit, Palpatine's force lightning makes things...problematic for Bane, given what happens to the Orbalisks.

As for saber combat: Palpatine's knowledge in such may very well rival or surpass Bane's, given the training he received and his knowledge of 'the forms and styles of the lightsaber' as well as Jar'Kai and having Maul as his pupil.

A problem for Bane is that against someone like Palpatine, who would be both knowledgable in the subject of Bane himself, is that he can't forego self preservation. Palpatine is capable of casting force lightning with one hand and needs only a split second to do so. As well as his exceptional mastery of the saber and speed that could very well be on par with Bane's. While he cannot match him in physical strength alone, Bane needs to devote energy and effort to protecting his head, or other parts of his body from a force assault.

Originally posted by Faunus
GL also APPROVED the Dooku fight scene, which completely contradicted that which was seen in the movie. He also APPROVED - and personally oversaw - the creation of the CWC. So I guess that's pretty much G-Canon, too.

Err... no, the Dooku scene DOES not, whatsoever, contradict what was seen in the movie; it's simply the internal feelings and the things that happen below the surface. CWC happens to be very much canon, as much as we might dislike it; according to Lucas, it was even based on his original vision of Jedi being one-man armies that decimate all in their paths.

Originally posted by Faunus
None of these have anything to do with the speed at which the actors or stuntmen went through the choreography.
Which is exactly my point.
Anakin and Obi-Wan fought considerably faster than Sidious ever did in the movie, so this doesn't really work.[B/]

As I've stated already, Sidious fought just as fast in the duel with Yoda- if not faster- than Anakin and Obi-Wan. Also, speed is a highly important part of fighting; I mean, note how we see speed differences between fights; for example, Yoda is also extremely fast, and his style, in fact, is characterized by speed and acrobatics, like Sidious' is governed by speed and unpredictability. Also, in addition, Sidious being shown at his speed level in the movie EMPHASIZES his "need for speed", which he uses to make up for his physical weakness.

--

Originally posted by Faunus
[B]Now for the rest, in "essay" form:

The Worror issue. Here's the segment, from RoT:

A shimmering blue globe surrounded them both as [b]the mortally wounded Jedi released his own power in his final, dying act.

Instead of arcing across the room to destroy the one-armed Jedi, the lightning that flew from Bane's fingers reflected off the inside of the shimmering blue globe encasing him. The bolts ricocheted around wildly inside the globe, creating a storm of energy so intense that Zannah had to shield her eyes and look away. She heard Bane's scream rising above the sharp crackle of electricity, and when she looked back she saw the globe vanish and her Master fall to the ground in a charred and smoking heap.

If that at all resembles Yoda's shield, I'll eat a giraffe. While both were using all of their available power, the way in which each handled their respective opponent's lightning, as well as the actual intensity - which I'll discuss later - vary tremendously.[/B]

I have never ONCE denied the fact that Worror used a technique that's certainly DIFFERENT than Yoda's; but once again, Yoda, being a far more competent Jedi, would logically be capable of summoning up a better 'shield' than Worror could. But more on that later.

Originally posted by Faunus
By the way, I saw that you again mentioned Bane's "protection" against his own lightning; the orbalisks offer none, and their toxins only worsened his condition. The effect of poisons coupled with his own lightning - which apparently vaporized his clothes and charred his skin - knocked him into a coma, not the reflected Force attack alone.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but don't the orbalisks provide limited protection against lightning? Of course, if the lightning is strong enough, they'll be a hindrace, so they should actually count against Bane- at least in the force fight.

Originally posted by Faunus
Moving on - the following discussion of Raskta Lsu lays some of the groundwork for my argument:

Master Raskta Lsu, an Echani, sat at the controls of her ship. She had the alabaster skin, pure white hair, and silver eyes common to all her species. She was almost as tall as Johun, with the muscles and physique one would expect in a species that valued physical combat as the highest form of art and personal expression. Named in honor of the legendary Echani warrior Raskta Fenni, acclaimed by many to be the greatest duelist of her time, Master Raskta had spent her life honing her martial skills so that she could one day equal, and even surpass, her namesake.

She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master. Eschewing all other fields of study and forsaking the development of her other Force talents to focus exclusively on the lightsaber and combat, [b]she had transformed herself into a living weapon.

Now tasked with training apprentices in the forms of lightsaber combat, Raskta had been part of the campaign on Ruusan. Wielding a blue-bladed lightsaber in each hand, and shunning any form of armor, she was a terrifying figure to behold on the battlefield. Johun vividly remembered her carving great swaths of destruction through the heart of the enemy ranks, leaving a litter of bodies in her wake. It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb.

Emphasis mine. Clearly, she's formidable. And even backed by Worror's battle meditation, with Farfalla basically running interference with the Force, she never had a chance against Bane. [/B]

And I said previously that Raskta was most definetly an amazing combatant; however, she came very close to defeating Bane on HER OWN during the fight. While she is certainly no Kas'im or Bane, she's extremely formidable and would, alone, unaided by Battle Meditation, put up a decent fight against Bane- definetly not win, but definetly no "WTFpwn". And formidable as she is, Mace is her definite superior in saber combat, and Sidious was very capable of fending off Mace while simultaneously fighting with Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar.

Originally posted by Faunus
One of Zannah's observations, before Worror enters his meditative trance:

To her surprise, both of Bane's opponents were still standing; [b]proof they were exceptionally skilled combatants.

Mind you, Zannah had gotten her own ass tooled in seconds when she went up against a ticked off Bane, so she would know.[/B]

Yeah, they would. Bane >> Zannah, definetly, and Farfalla was most definetly 'formidable'; Raskta was incredible, and Farfalla was generally formidable, though I doubt he's on Agen Kolar's level; also, Farfalla was also tooled by Bane when the battle meditation vanished.

Originally posted by Faunus
A note on the effect of Worror's battle meditation:

It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might.

Now to tie some of these together - namely, this issue about Worror. As seen above, his battle meditation had a profound impact on its targets, making them "quicker and stronger" to the point that this occurs:

Then, [Farfalla], too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, [b]surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power.[/B]

The BM heightens his power to the point that the "exceptionally skilled" warrior was capable of evading an attack that, otherwise, would've left him a broken mess, trampled into the ground.[/B]

Yes, Worror's battle meditation is, of course, a highly impressive force power, but nontheless, Farfalla is Bane's FAR inferior when they fight on equal grounds; this is proven by things like that. Bane would've crushed him if they fought equally, but nontheless, it's still my belief that Farfalla, a being who had his strength backed up only by being "exceptionally skilled" and being a Jedi Lord (once again, with the Jedi, titles are pointless), would probably be defeated in combat by one of the greatest swordsmen the order had ever known; this, I think would be accurate. Farfalla < Tiin/Fisto < Kolar < Raskta < Mace. But do you think Bane could have easily defeated three stronger versions of Farfalla coming at him at ONCE? I doubt it.

Originally posted by Faunus
*On a quick side note, this also serves as a demonstration of Bane's own considerable speed - he almost managed to kill two Jedi Masters, with the aforementioned narrative praise attributed to both, by running them over, and apparently Farfalla only managed to escape death because of Worror's "amazing talent." That, and the fact that he was easily capable of sprinting at speeds in excess of 120 kilometers per hour over appreciable distances.

Sidious had also moved at speeds that are beyond the eye can follow; while his stamina is hardly at Bane's level, he IS capable of traveling faster than him over short distances. Of course Bane is fast; it's just that Sidious' saber skills are almost entirely about his speed.

Originally posted by Faunus
Back to the main point; his superiority over the two Jedi Masters, one of whom is decidedly amazing, with the other being at least exceptional - both before being empowered by BM.

In pure sabers, when Raskta realized his weakness, he was being nearly defeated; he demonstrated his definite superiority over them with the force.

Originally posted by Faunus
Raskta was already back on her feet and flying through the air toward him. Bane spun and threw a wave of invisible dark side power at her. A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks. The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Farfalla not thrown up a shield to protect the Echani. Even so her muscular body was plucked from the air and hurtled backward, though she twisted and turned so she landed on her feet.

Yes, Raskta's inferior force defense is very much understandable; it was definetly a force push on possibly the level you have shown below, as it was made clear that it could probably have killed her.

Originally posted by Faunus
A defenseless opponent - pretty much what Master Lsu is, in this case - was simply pulverized, as was everything struck by the massive wave. Of course, he blew down an entire temple, too, as we've discussed many times.

In the heat of a saber duel against Sidious, this force push will be next to useless as Sidious, who is Kas'im definite superior, would be capable of blocking a 'casual' force push from Bane with ease. Even a push from an enraged Bane should be blocked without too much difficulty.

Originally posted by Faunus
Farfalla saw the Sith Lord turn toward him, sensing the intervention that had saved Raskta's life. Bane unleashed a barrage of Sith lightning, gathering and releasing his power at the speed of thought. [b]The Jedi threw up a Force barrier to shield himself, but the electricity tore right through it and arced toward him. Then suddenly Raskta was there to save his life, repaying a debt that was only a few seconds old as she threw herself in front of him. Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.

The bolded segment is the most important; Farfalla's usage of the Force shield technique that Yoda most likely utilized - and clearly, one that is nothing like Worror's blue orb - failed miserably against Bane. There wasn't even a struggle, as the lightning "tore right through it". And seeing as how Bane's fairly casual Force-push would've crushed Raskta instantly without Farfalla's assistance, and that this particular burst of lightning ripped apart the latter's Force defenses, we can pursue and analyze the following conclusions:[/B]

I seriously doubt the fact that Bane's push was 'casual', as you put it, due to mainly the fact that it would have definetly killed Raskta, something that force pushes are rarely able to do. It would have had the same effect as it did on the woman against which Bane used the technique. And do me a favor; do not, under any circumstances, compare a force barrier used by Farfalla to a force barrier used by Yoda. One is probably only a slightly above average Jedi who never displayed any highly impressive force feats- especially if the force push was 'casual', as you put it- while Yoda was the greatest Jedi in history and a near force god. The fact that Bane's almost definetly full-powered lightning easily broke through the barrier shouldn't be seen as a highly impressive feat.

Originally posted by Faunus
[b]A] This one operates under your logic. If, as you claim, the lightning that would later be used against Johun was the best Bane had - which would mean that the blast demonstrated here couldn't have been any stronger - then a "half-dead" Worror is far superior to Farfalla in Force ability, as apparently mortally wounded Force-users aren't capable of exerting their full power or effort, despite the example of mine that used Sidious in Empire's End as a focal point.[/B]

Err... Worror is most DEFINETLY the far superior to Farfalla in terms of force abilities; I will concede by now that he's a generally powerful force user, but he's still NOTHING compared to Yoda. Half-dead force users shouldn't be capable of harnessing the same level of power as fully alive and intact force users; Sidious' usage of the lightning on his deathbed makes the instant kills he pulled on Jedi all the more impressive. I don't see any reason why Bane should possibly take any risks; as you said, he's efficient, so why not harness the full power of his lightning in the certain killing move? There's absolutely no reason why he wouldn't use his full power to kill Johun.

But of course, there are several problems with this one.

Originally posted by Faunus
- For one, Johun was a whimpering wreck lying on the ground; it would have been completely unnecessary for Bane to push his own limits while applying that one last lightning burst to finish the Jedi off, and Bane is nothing if not efficient. So the attack he used in his attempt to kill Johun was not an all-out effort on his part.

Johun was injured, but he wasn't seriously injured; he was very much alive, unlike Worror. And as you said, Bane is most definetly a highly efficient combatant, so thus, why wouldn't he go all-out on the attack in order to minimize the risk? Why not decimate the Jedi that nearly cut off his hand?

Originally posted by Faunus
- Two, I've shown that Force-users are capable of rather extreme feats even an inch from death. So Worror being "half-dead" means jack shit.

Sion was still alive in the sense that he kept on going using the dark side, and Sidious' lightning was most probably not on full potency when he used it aganist the Jedi later on due to him being in a position of being 'near-dead'.

Originally posted by Faunus
- Three, the techniques used by Worror and Farfalla / Yoda are completely different. This is evident even in their visible depictions; you cannot argue this.

And did I attempt to say that it was the same technique? No, it wasn't, but once again, I see absolutely no reason why a more potent and more desperate Jedi wouldn't summon up a more powerful technique than Worror's blue sphere. I'll talk about it later.

Originally posted by Faunus
[b]B] Bane wasn't exerting himself fully in either his Force-push against Raskta or his lightning assault on Johun. This is backed by all the above, which includes text taken directly from RoT. Drawing on this, we can see that Worror's final offensive on Bane, which would have utilized the Jedi's full power, was not an example of someone "overpowering" Bane in any way.[/B]

EVEN if what you think is correct- and Bane's lightning was NOT at full power- Worror still most definetly overpowered Bane, due to the fact that his lightning COULD not penetrate and was deflected by Worror's powerful defensive technique; the fact is, Bane was exauhsted and needed to kill the dude who nearly cut off his hand. I see absolutely no reason why Bane wouldn't go all-out on Johun in order to absolutely ensure the fact that Johun will die, and quickly at that; seeing the immense damage the lightning did to Bane would simply pose another reason as to calculate the rough power of the lightning he shot on Johun. Yoda, similarly, was SUPREMELY more competent than Worror, was perfectly ALIVE, and used his full-power, and yet he still, nevertheless, failed to overpower Sidious with it. Even if Bane's lightning was on, say, 80% power, which might very well be accurate, it still got totally overpowered by a Jedi who is Yoda's vast inferior, while Yoda, at 100%, could not deflect Sidious' lightning. Being far more experienced and more powerful than Worror, why wouldn't Yoda know the same technique that Worror used if it ensures the lightning is deflected? Yoda would do everything to kill Sidious, as it was his last chance of doing so.

Originally posted by Faunus
Clearly, [b]B] is the correct conclusion in light of all available evidence.[/B]

I respectfully disagree, but I doubt you'll concede to my arguments, and seeing as I will most likely not concede, either, maybe we should drop the whole Worror argument.

--

Originally posted by Faunus
All that said, I see no need to go after sabers, too, although I'll leave with these few points:

- Sidious' consummate knowledge of the lightsaber forms is offset by Bane's complete knowledge of them. He knows, literally, every single possible combination that someone using a single- or double-bladed saber can use to the extent that he was tooling Kas'im - the guy who'd spent decades mastering and refining all seven forms - before the dual-saber card was pulled.

Wrong, Bane was very much familiar with the specific combinations Kas'im harnessed; it's definetly not the same cominations as other people used. Not every, say, Makashi user is the same, and therefore, I don't see a reason why Sidious- a MASTER of all forms, something Bane could not say he is- couldn't still use unpredictability against him.

Originally posted by Faunus
- Any speed advantage, if present at all in this point in time, is negligible at best, given Bane's own prodigious speed and his ridiculous advantage in every other physical category.

Sidious' speed advantage most definetly exists as I've stated and given proof of multiple times; it may not be extreme, but it's most definetly there. Bane's adantages are strength, stamina, and orbalisks, while Sidious' advantages are speed, mastery, and unpredictability; Bane has absolutely no advantage on him in saber combat, other than the orbalisks, and I still see no reason why Sidious couldn't just overwhelm and decapacitate him or create an opening and force-lightning him to death.

Originally posted by Faunus
- The point about a physical prime - namely, your example using DE Sidious - is redundant, as said Sith Lord spent about three decades refining and expanding his mastery of the Force between RotS and DE. This wasn't RotS Sidious in a younger body against Luke, it was a more experienced man with more acquired power and a younger body.

Irrelevant, like you said, as RoT Bane is Bane's most powerful incarnation. Unitl there's a new source displaying a stronger Bane, we'll still have to refer to him as the strongest Bane around; and in fact, a post-RoT Bane will possibly have a worse chance up against Sidious due to the lack of the orbalisks.

What makes Sidious's feat in Empire's End so impressive is that his dark side acolytes and physician confirmed that with every subsequent usage of the Force, the Emperor would be pushed even closer to death; yet he still managed to obliterate two capable Jedi (one or both of whom were capable of defeating the Emperor's highly trained dark Jedi).

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Yeah, they would. Bane >> Zannah, definetly, and Farfalla was most definetly 'formidable'; Raskta was incredible, and Farfalla was generally formidable, though I doubt he's on Agen Kolar's level; also, Farfalla was also tooled by Bane when the battle meditation vanished.

Instead, the powerful push struck Worror, throwing him into the corner as the lightsaber strike that would have cut him in two swished harmlessly through the air.

Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken.

Not that any of this actually detracts from Bane...

Farfalla < Tiin/Fisto < Kolar < Raskta < Mace. But do you think Bane could have easily defeated three stronger versions of Farfalla coming at him at ONCE? I doubt it.

Of course Bane is fast; it's just that Sidious' saber skills are almost entirely about his speed.

In pure sabers, when Raskta realized his weakness, he was being nearly defeated;

He spun back to the fight to see that the Echani Weapons Master had taken the offensive, sending quick flicks of her blue blades toward Bane's unprotected face-the only spot on his body seemingly not covered by the impenetrable shells. Remarkably, Bane was giving ground.

"Stay back!" she shouted at Farfalla. "You'll just get in the way."

Farfalla did as he was told, gathering the energies of the light side to throw up another protective Force barrier should Bane try to unleash his dark side powers against the Echani.

She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor [/b]... or so Farfalla thought.[/b]

Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta's blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room.

He was never in danger of being killed by her. And you're conveniently, and unsurprisingly, ignoring this:

"Go for the face!" Farfalla shouted, arriving on the scene and throwing himself into the battle as Johun did the same.

Together the three of them held the Sith Lord at bay: Farfalla on the left flank, Johun on the right, and Raskta in the center. Between blocks and parries they cut and stabbed at his face, their combined efforts finally forcing their enemy into a defensive stance.

The young Jedi marveled at the speed and savagery of Raskta's blades. And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage.

On her opposite side Farfalla struck with clean, elegant blows, his form perfect as he harried Bane's right flank. Yet though they were able to hold their ground, they couldn't drive him back or defeat him.

They were at an impasse, none of their attacks able to connect with the one vulnerable part of Bane's anatomy.

In the climax of the battle, all three of them attack him at once, all aiming right at his face, and only managed to keep him from running them over. Contrary to your implication, Raskta's "unparalleled" skill is shown to be completely incapable of forcing him back on her own, as she manages to actually use Johun's tactics to her advantage, while Farfalla goes at Bane from the right with "perfect" form, and they still can't even get him to start giving ground.

Yes, Raskta's inferior force defense is very much understandable; it was definetly a force push on possibly the level you have shown below, as it was made clear that it could probably have killed her.

I seriously doubt the fact that Bane's push was 'casual', as you put it, due to mainly the fact that it would have definetly killed Raskta, something that force pushes are rarely able to do.

And Force-pushes are "rarely" capable of completely pulverizing massive stone structures, something that Bane accomplished over ten years prior to RoT.

It would have had the same effect as it did on the woman against which Bane used the technique.

They were not the same level of power, and neither compares to the attack he used on the temple.

And do me a favor; do not, under any circumstances, compare a force barrier used by Farfalla to a force barrier used by Yoda

One is probably only a slightly above average Jedi who never displayed any highly impressive force feats-

You're absolutely ridiculous.

especially if the force push was 'casual', as you put it-

while Yoda was the greatest Jedi in history and a near force god.

The fact that Bane's almost definetly full-powered lightning easily broke through the barrier shouldn't be seen as a highly impressive feat.

You can't pick and chose based on what benefits your case, Sidi-Boy, which is exactly what you've been doing this entire debate.

Err... Worror is most DEFINETLY the far superior to Farfalla in terms of force abilities; I will concede by now that he's a generally powerful force user, but he's still NOTHING compared to Yoda.

Half-dead force users shouldn't be capable of harnessing the same level of power as fully alive and intact force users; Sidious' usage of the lightning on his deathbed makes the instant kills he pulled on Jedi all the more impressive.

Your lack of objectivity is astounding.

Johun was injured, but he wasn't seriously injured; he was very much alive, unlike Worror. And as you said, Bane is most definetly a highly efficient combatant, so thus, why wouldn't he go all-out on the attack in order to minimize the risk?

I don't see any reason why Bane should possibly take any risks; as you said, he's efficient, so why not harness the full power of his lightning in the certain killing move? There's absolutely no reason why he wouldn't use his full power to kill Johun.

1) Bane thought that Worror was dead. Since he'd already killed Farfalla and Zannah had dealt with Serro and Raskta, that would mean he believed Johun to be the only Jedi left.

2) Johun was lying on the ground whimpering in pain (He screamed and dropped to his knees, clutching his cauterized stump...) with Zannah standing mere feet from him. In Bane's mind, the battle was over. Therefore, there would have been no need for him to exert himself any more than was necessary.

3) Bane's lightning - if we were to wrongfully assume that it was being used at full power in any instances - was capable of reducing multiple living beings to ash, charring two enemies to smoking husks in a "few" seconds, and easily ripping through the defenses of a BM'd Jedi Master. Do you really think Johun needs to be disintegrated to be killed? Or that his Force defenses, which weren't even up at the time, would even begin to compare to those of Farfalla?

Take a few minutes to look that over again if you don't follow.

4) Against an enemy described as clumsy and weak who had no chance of escape and was mistakenly believed to be alone, Bane would have no need to use a full-powered lightning blast, or even anything remotely close.

Is that clear?

Why not decimate the Jedi that nearly cut off his hand

Lying on the ground ten meters away, Johun watched in helpless horror as the Dark Lord's lightsaber leapt from the floor and flew back into his hand. Amazingly, his fingers wrapped themselves around the hilt and reignited the crimson blade, his injuries somehow healing almost instantly.

Yeah. So with the "assistance," to say the very, very least of it, Johun just barely manages to nick Bane's wrist, which just pisses him off and results in the trio being blown back thirty feet.

Not much of an accomplishment.

Originally posted by Faunus
Of course. Because if Sidious does it, it's cool and impressive.

Your lack of objectivity is astounding.

Actually, while both feats are impressive, Sidious's is much moreso. The Emperor's body was already weakening due to the "paradox of the dark side" that "the more successful the dark sider, the more quickly that dark sider's body decays" (the Essential Guide to the Force) not to mention the betrayal of former Guardsman Carnor Jax that tainted the genetic tissue within the Emperor's clone body; the dark side elite and his personal physician both instructed the Emperor who was "barely able to walk in his festering body" (the New Essential Chronology) that each subsequent use of the Force would only serve to bring him much closer to death. And he still pwned two seasoned combatants and overcame Leia with ease. Was Worror in such a position?

OMG! I'm not reading all of that!

Ok.........are we suppose to care?

yes... because... you are gender confused and you care about me?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
yes... because... you are gender confused and you care about me?

Try again,

But this is what Gideon is talking about. There wasn't even a full page worth of new posts and you don't want to read it. Then you are going to post an opinion that very could have been covered by one of the debaters above.

Originally posted by Faunus
Being violently cut off from battle meditation weakens an individual considerably, as we see with Johun:

Instead, the powerful push struck Worror, throwing him into the corner as the lightsaber strike that would have cut him in two swished harmlessly through the air.

Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken.

Which in no way implies that his speed is greater, only that he relies on it more than Bane does.
It's pretty clear that you've never read RoT, or even bothered to Wiki it to any real effect:

He spun back to the fight to see that the Echani Weapons Master had taken the offensive, sending quick flicks of her blue blades toward Bane's unprotected face-the only spot on his body seemingly not covered by the impenetrable shells. Remarkably, [b]Bane was giving ground.

"Stay back!" she shouted at Farfalla. "You'll just get in the way."

Farfallaw did as he was told, gathering the energies of the light side to throw up another protective Force barrier should Bane try to unleash his dark side powers against the Echani.

She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor [/b]... or so Farfalla thought.[/b]

Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta's blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room.

He was never in danger of being killed by her. And you're conveniently, and unsurprisingly, ignoring this:

"Go for the face!" Farfalla shouted, arriving on the scene and throwing himself into the battle as Johun did the same.

Together the three of them held the Sith Lord at bay: Farfalla on the left flank, Johun on the right, and Raskta in the center. Between blocks and parries they cut and stabbed at his face, their combined efforts finally forcing their enemy into a defensive stance.

The young Jedi marveled at the speed and savagery of Raskta's blades. And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage.

On her opposite side Farfalla struck with clean, elegant blows, his form perfect as he harried Bane's right flank. Yet though they were able to hold their ground, they couldn't drive him back or defeat him.

They were at an impasse, none of their attacks able to connect with the one vulnerable part of Bane's anatomy.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Try again,

But this is what Gideon is talking about. There wasn't even a full page worth of new posts and you don't want to read it. Then you are going to post an opinion that very could have been covered by one of the debaters above.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
actually, i haven't been following this thread at all. 😉

Or have you....... 🥷

bwt what comic is your sig. from

star wars the derovian version.