Master Malygos Vs. Lich King

Originally posted by Utrigita
What Challenge BT?

You used the Challenge rate to try and justify the Lich King being on a higher level then Sargeras

So don't come here with the Challenge Rate because it was you that began using it.

What are you talking about. Elune holds the highest CR (92) in the RPG, Your Lich King holds a CR at 50 Archimonde holds one at 50 and Kil'Jaeden one at 59 then one ofcause most remember that Kil'Jaeden, Archimonde, Sargeras and Elune are Eternal and therefore gets a +7 to there challenge rate. Furthermore again Sargeras holds a CR at 73.

The Lich King are so far away from them in CR that he will need a ladder to get there.

No i didnt, I cant can I because its higher with or without any additions, I was simply saying in the challenge ratings which as i said before are totally ridiculous (i helped you by quoting and bolding the area where i said it, ime so generous) and i simply used it for a show of how he is in comparison to Killy and Archimonde.

yes, against Archi and Killy, at the same time as saying its a load of BS, so if your using it, good for you, you can use BS all you wish.

The +7 is prob already added and technically LK is also an eternal, so he is 57 since he is immortal, infact he is more God but he prob does not get points for having that title in the RP since elune is also put under eternal. LK used to be named eternal along with Killy and Archi but perhaps they were all retconned i dont know. Elune still keeps her status.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No i didnt, I cant can I because its higher with or without any additions, I was simply saying in the challenge ratings which as i said before are totally ridiculous (i helped you by quoting and bolding the area where i said it, ime so generous) and i simply used it for a show of how he is in comparison to Killy and Archimonde.

yes, against Archi and Killy, at the same time as saying its a load of BS, so if your using it, good for you, you can use BS all you wish.

The +7 is prob already added and technically LK is also an eternal, so he is 57 since he is immortal, infact he is more God but he prob does not get points for having that title in the RP since elune is also put under eternal. LK used to be named eternal along with Killy and Archi but perhaps they were all retconned i dont know. Elune still keeps her status.

And then you proceded to use it as my quote proved, it wasn't me talking about Challenge Rating it was you bt, and then you again proceded to use it against Sargeras and even against them he is below.

Again you where mentioning the Lich King Challenge Rate against Sargeras.

I will happily provide the Quote yet again.

A challenge rating of 26 higher is a joke imo, especialy to the "untouchable" level you seem to try and place Sar

No it isn't, and No the Lich King isn't a Eternal, unless you can find me a source that stats that, I'm going with the actual Lore that stats that he isn't and not you assumption on that he is. The Lich King isn't classified as a Eternal, End of Discussion unless etc.

Originally posted by Utrigita
And then you proceded to use it as my quote proved, it wasn't me talking about Challenge Rating it was you bt, and then you again proceded to use it against Sargeras and even against them he is below.

Again you where mentioning the Lich King Challenge Rate against Sargeras.

I will happily provide the Quote yet again.

No it isn't, and No the Lich King isn't a Eternal, unless you can find me a source that stats that, I'm going with the actual Lore that stats that he isn't and not you assumption on that he is. The Lich King isn't classified as a Eternal, End of Discussion unless etc.

I brang it up and called it rubbish evidence, i brought it up as a side line of my main point and then for some reason you took it as a major one and started going on about challenge ratings with Sargerus when i was not even talking about him at the time in conjunction with the LK. Like the first and second quotes they were sidelines to answer what you already said.

Yes and in lore neither is Archimonde or Kiljaeden anymore, they have been ripped from that status, but no, LK is more God which is usually higher or alongside Eternal. But he is eternal in every way, he is immortal for instance.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I brang it up and called it rubbish evidence, i brought it up as a side line of my main point and then for some reason you took it as a major one and started going on about challenge ratings with Sargerus when i was not even talking about him at the time in conjunction with the LK. Like the first and second quotes they were sidelines to answer what you already said.

Yes and in lore neither is Archimonde or Kiljaeden anymore, they have been ripped from that status, but no, LK is more God which is usually higher or alongside Eternal. But he is eternal in every way, he is immortal for instance.

And if you noticed it I said IF you are going to use challenge rating and then what at your next post you are.

Sorry but in the RPG books which is by Blizzard concideret lore they are eternal, and find me a source that stats that the Lich King is classified by Blizzard as a Eternal which means from a source that has Blizzard approved as lore.

its been retconned like Kiljaeden and Archimonde have, the RP book is the only thing that seems to put them under that title 🙂 but as i said, LK does not need that title, Demi-God/God is bettter. But he is obviously more eternal than Archimonde who is...oh yeh....not so eternal is he...his bones decorate Hyjal lol...

Also ive asked this so many times, show me where Blizzard state officially the books are true 100% to lore. Also everything said in a book is not lore, just because it says for example in the combat section Aman'thul starts by teleporting in other titans or something does not mean thats how it is in lore.

Originally posted by Burning thought
its been retconned like Kiljaeden and Archimonde have, the RP book is the only thing that seems to put them under that title 🙂 but as i said, LK does not need that title, Demi-God/God is bettter. But he is obviously more eternal than Archimonde who is...oh yeh....not so eternal is he...his bones decorate Hyjal lol...

Also ive asked this so many times, show me where Blizzard state officially the books are true 100% to lore. Also everything said in a book is not lore, just because it says for example in the combat section Aman'thul starts by teleporting in other titans or something does not mean thats how it is in lore.

Show me where it has been retconned. Yes his bones are decorating Hyjal, but hey who cares about the context concerning that, which truly showed Archimonde as a Eternal.

I have showed you once and I will happily do so again.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/index.html

Please note

1. "Want to know more about the lore of World of Warcraft? Although the game doesn't require any prior knowledge of Warcraft lore to enjoy, you may appreciate the broader understanding of the setting and characters in the game that you will gain from learning about the lore. Here are some resources that are available: "

2. under RPGs "Warcraft Role-Playing Games provide a wealth of information about Warcraft lore"

And I find nothing suspect in that Aman'Thul will attempt to gain help from his fellow titans they are after all a team.

Yes they probably do provide a wealth of information, in the lore sections where it says the story of the character for example, where does it say Archimonde is an eternal in the story/lore section? I mean hell he is placed in the character class RP section as Eternal, but thats not the lore, thats a headline banner of a section for the classes you can play as, not lore, just like how all these numbers are not lore.

lol as if Aman'thul is going to summon in all the titans, its like a terrible example of combat based from more of a WoW point of view, beings of that magnitude of power will not operate imo like WoW teams.

Get it into your head that Archimonde is classified as a eternal and the Lich King isn't that the lich King can become with Time a Eternal thats another story but right now he isn't.

Also list of Eternals

http://www.wowwiki.com/Eternal

Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden are there, the Lich King isn't.

Against Greater Foes! That would mean Sargeras ore Ragnaros ore Elune ore I hope you get the picture.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Get it into your head that Archimonde is classified as a eternal and the Lich King isn't that the lich King can become with Time a Eternal thats another story but right now he isn't.

Also list of Eternals

http://www.wowwiki.com/Eternal

Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden are there, the Lich King isn't.

Against Greater Foes! That would mean Sargeras ore Ragnaros ore Elune ore I hope you get the picture.

Hes not, lol hes not even in the section of eternals and you know what else? the RPG books are barely feasable at best but....ive just realised their before World of warcraft era books lol, before retcons, before.....basically the books can be completly wrong now which as your WoWwiki link shows is likely correct also lol

Not all demons are Eternals. However it is known that both Archimonde and Kil'jaeden hold (or held) this status.S&L 58-60

yeh, it sounds rediculous ,Aman'thul summoning the titans indeed, if he has such powerful ability as people often overhype titans the father of the pantheon will not really need other titans.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Hes not, lol hes not even in the section of eternals and you know what else? the RPG books are barely feasable at best but....ive just realised their before World of warcraft era books lol, before retcons, before.....basically the books can be completly wrong now which as your WoWwiki link shows is likely correct also lol

yeh, it sounds rediculous ,Aman'thul summoning the titans indeed, if he has such powerful ability as people often overhype titans the father of the pantheon will not really need other titans.

You can try and downplay it all you like it doesn't change the fact. You where wrong. I cannot see how my link is wrong because it says held the status because again you obviously forgot that one of those eternals are dead, thus Archimonde Held that status. Furthermore WoW was published in 2004 damm thats the same time the Book concerning the Eternal was launched, you where wrong... again because you obviously forgot again that Blizzard rolled all there big guns into position when they launched WoW that included the launching of the RPG books.

No he wouldn't unless against extremely powerful opponents such as Sargeras.

But you know what BT you can disagree as much as you like I have located a website that is directly controlled by Blizzard which stats that the RPG Books are Lore, you can disagree all you like and so can I but it doesn't change the fact.

And now I will go back to my desk and study for my eksam waiting for what you pulls out of your hat in the next response.

no, the book is before WoW, the retcon, and its information is therefore weak/useless or even more so than usual at least. The book is completly aged, but this is not part of the debate anyway, fine, give him all the titles you want lol, ill give LK God as well, the RPG books are terrible sources of information when coming to things like this, Archimonde/kiljaeden have been retconned, LK like them used to have the little "eternal" class under his name but theyve all been taken away and replaced with hero classes. it was not until WoW had come out that so many retcons had taken place and stories changed, and then some other things changed when BC came out, like Illidan surviving Arthas, it was not always known and was often said that Illidan was dead before it was made true that in BC Illidan is the major antagonist.

Ime not wearing a hat

The Book was published in 2004, the Game was released in 2004. In your opinion, a online Site with a direct tie to Blizzard disagrees with you. hence I couldn't care less about your personal feelings about the books.

You are welcome to give the Lich King the Title of God, that title is given in Warcraft to any being that is being worshipped, so you do that.

Instead of constantly saying it show me where it stats that they have been retconned.

No he didn't, the Lich King have never been classified as a eternal.

Show me the link and the proof of that the Retcon has taken away Kil'Jaedens status as a Eternal.

Also the MoM clearly stats that Illidan survived his confrontation with Arthas which he did as shown in WoW and that Book was published in 2003 and it still held accurate information so stop trying to downplay a canon source just because you don't like what is says.

But it had been speculated, nothing new data concerning the Lich King have placed him as a Eternal what fans think is speculation, and nothing to my knowlegde have taken away Kil'Jaeden status as a Eternal.

It looks that way.

2004, so? the year being the same does not mean they came out at the same time, read the bottom of shadows and light that you sent me, the part with the eternals it says "coming soon, world of warcraft".

What has been retconned? ive shown you already, well youve shown me the "used to" part, regardless of your take on it saying that, mine is still just as viable as is the fact your only sources are old information which regardless, we know retcons have happened.

He has, in the same section Elune is classed as one. The fact he doesnt have it in his WoWwiki profile, the fact as I said earlier "he used to"

Whats your interest in titles all of a sudden anyway?

Like you dont downplay canon and offical sources? like the official website of WOTLK itself stating LK as one of the most powerful beings in the warcraft universe, thing is, my proof and canon sources are not sitting behind a few walls of retcons and 3/4 years

The titles are not speculation, they have rules and criteria that has to be met, Lich King is both worshiped and immortal so by criteria he is worthy of "God" and furthermore the WC3 manual i think states him as godlike or so the WoWwiki says, i cba to travel across my room to get the case atm to check.

You cant see me...so that doesnt make sense

And again it's highly unlikely that it wasn't combined as said before it was all the part of a massive campaign by Blizzard to make more attention around there product and again MoM that was published in 2003 contained accurate information about Illidan, Who gave the writers that idea? Most likely Blizzard or the other way around.

No You haven't showed me anything, not a single thing infact, I have already explained why it say held.

Give me the links instead of your talk.

Alright I will accept that will you accept the RPG's? No you Proof is based on a FAQ written by a employer at Blizzard, wanting to build up a area of exitment around the Lich King, but Fine I will accept that but then you also have to accept the RPG's which imo have far more crediability then your one single "canon" source have.

Yes worshipped you are a god great, any being in WoW has the potential to become a God, to be looked apon as a God doesn't mean you become a Eternal.

I bet it doesn't

Originally posted by Utrigita
And again it's highly unlikely that it wasn't combined as said before it was all the part of a massive campaign by Blizzard to make more attention around there product and again MoM that was published in 2003 contained accurate information about Illidan, Who gave the writers that idea? Most likely Blizzard or the other way around.

No You haven't showed me anything, not a single thing infact, I have already explained why it say held.

Give me the links instead of your talk.

The eternal Class titl,e you saying Lich King was a Eternal which he isn't confirmed to be by any official sources.

Yes worshipped you are a god great, any being in WoW has the potential to become a God, to be looked apon as a God doesn't mean you become a Eternal.

I bet it doesn't

Thats only once again one explanation, that does not make fact of anything however, my point still stands strong.

Youve explained your view and ive explained my, both viable.

Links to what? links to info ive just told you that have been retconned, yeh right thats a clever thing to ask for...wel ldone, let me just get my time machine, ill go back a few years, copy and paste the information to you, should be awsome.

Well ive realised hes a God now which>>Eternal so w/e but the discussion is a battle, and its gone from debating characters to titles which are irrelevent in the grand scheme of things anyway.

Potential? not really, you need ot be worshipped AND be immortal, there are very few Gods in Warcraft, one is Elune who is incredible powerful, another is the LK who is also.

An eternal doesnt really mean much of anything, its a combination of immortal and power, every being including the LK have been told to be of unfathomable power so technically LK is also an eternal title as well, infact:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Eternal

The term "Eternal" was coined by Bob Fitch and Chris Metzen, because “Immortal” didn’t feel right; and “divine” also felt a bit awkward

It seems they just wanted to use Eternal instead of immortal, since LK is immortal as well that means he is also perhaps an eternal according to the terming.

You point doesn't stand strong the Book was published the same year as the Game was and it's obvious that Blizzard have been deep into the books. Else the information about Illidan would have been different.

Yes.

So you are making a Claim you cannot support?

No A god isn't per definition above a Eternal, Eternal is as mentioned another way to classify beings raging from Elements to Gods. And The Lich King isn't a eternal unless you can find a piece of a source that says stats that, also Cenarius was a Demi-God Azshara was a God does that mean she would win against Cenarius imo Hells no.

Let me see, Elune is a God, Norgammon would be a God to, Ragnaros too, Hakkar the Soulflayer is too, alot of beings can fall into the catagory of Gods but because they are classified as God doesn't mean they are Eternal, And I don't care about your technically Logic BT, because he isn't classified as A eternal in a Handbook which he should have been if he was one.

Then it would have been stated and again it's a perhaps nothing definite have been stated about him being a Eternal, Malygos however is a Eternal.

Btw can we put this discussion on a hold to Wednesday?

Originally posted by Utrigita
You point doesn't stand strong the Book was published the same year as the Game was and it's obvious that Blizzard have been deep into the books. Else the information about Illidan would have been different.

Yes.

So you are making a Claim you cannot support?

No A god isn't per definition above a Eternal, Eternal is as mentioned another way to classify beings raging from Elements to Gods. And The Lich King isn't a eternal unless you can find a piece of a source that says stats that, also Cenarius was a Demi-God Azshara was a God does that mean she would win against Cenarius imo Hells no.

Let me see, Elune is a God, Norgammon would be a God to, Ragnaros too, Hakkar the Soulflayer is too, alot of beings can fall into the catagory of Gods but because they are classified as God doesn't mean they are Eternal, And I don't care about your technically Logic BT, because he isn't classified as A eternal in a Handbook which he should have been if he was one.

Then it would have been stated and again it's a perhaps nothing definite have been stated about him being a Eternal, Malygos however is a Eternal.

That doesnt damage my point in any way, shape or form, your simply making excuses for the weakness of the book, its still so out of date its incredible

I simply made the statement because i remember it and perhaps you would to if you had seen it, but obviously not.

Well ime up with this title talk, LK will crush eternals when he gets his @ss in gear and knocks down Kiljaeden. And actually Azhera was damn powerful....apprenlty i read somewhere her only superiors were Sarg, Archimonde and Kiljaeden.....Elune is also a Goddess....she would wipe Cenarius.

The handbook is old....technically is according to their factual definition, if Blizzard say all merlocs are omnipotent, but just because Zappy the Murloc does not come under the title in a book while others do, does not mean Zappy is not omnipotent....Zappy would still>>Kiljaeden. Just like how LK is an eternal technically according to what an Eternal is.

great, Malygos has the eternal title, LK has the God....God sounds better imo....and id give LK eternal to due to what it is and I remember him being called one in the old lore.

Either way, may as well leave the REAL duscssion for wednesday, since this title one is unimportnat

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not necesserily, otherwise Malygos gets done in by the same, oh and Kiljaeden gets thwarted as well.

Wut lol?

You fight a partially summoned shade of Kil'Jaeden weakened by Anveena.

You fight with Alexstrasza by your side against an exhausted Malygos maddened.

Since no Aspect will assist in the battle against Lich King and Anveena is gone all that is left is 25 level 80 characters. What will assist you against Lich King? Since you have Alexstrasza by your side against Malygos, it would have to be someone equal to Alexstrasza's level of power in order for the Lich King fight to be in the same league.

No Aspect for sure and since he has turned his back on the Burning Legion, no demon either. Lich King has no powerful entity by his side nor any powerful entity against him to weaken him.

yes and so? you know the exact battle against Lich King? ofcourse not, for all we know Elune herself may enchant the heroes with a mount hyjal caverns of time esque buff, we may gain help from the full powered Kiljaeden ,summoned by the Lich King to do battle and the heroes join in, several NPCs, aspects w/e could easily join the battle, so saying just 25 level 80 players (who will have better gear than when they fight the others btw)

there are powerful entities to weaken/fight him, and if there are not as i belive any real threats to LK, several aspects may join, or several NPC charactrs, maybe Blizzard will add a special way of killing him, so that his power is far far beyond anything the players have but theres items in the lair that weaken him or his own power.

Or it could just be a defeat, for either side, LK could defeat your party or else as i imagine myself I think the power of LK is beyond anything players or most Azeroth level opponents coudl dish out, so i think Arthas may fight back for control OR if Arthas is completly gone, the weakess the mortal body has may be a bad effect.

Either way, buff, NPC etc we dont know how the LK fight will pan out, if it goes like all the major entities, he will be weakened, the players will be buffed, NPC will aid the players or a combination.