Master Malygos Vs. Lich King

Originally posted by Burning thought
an FAQ has information on whatever source, lore or otherwise the questiosn are asked on, and it doesnt indeed have some lore, the books being ancient reduces their creadability in a world thats evolving for years, even if some information it uses has not been directly reconned.

Al ot of it is, Warlocks use a lot of shadow magic, so no the LK cannot summon demons he wouldnt want to summon such weaklings, he has infnite necromancy so hell prob just resurrect Archimonde and use him as a slave, but either way their using shadow powers which was my point jsut like Warlocks do, all their curses are shadow powers for example and their shadow bolt.

ive not specualted anything, what do you mean to support what speculation? that fact LK can take over minds? ive shown you him taking over minds many times.

That FAQ is on an official site, the most official source you can prob get, its also new....regardless if its not a piece of storyline its the most official source you can prob get for Blizzard and it wins through as a source. It doesnt say in comparison to human beings its in his storyline, which unfortaltey neither Aman'thul, aspect or any other being that ive read been named "All powerful", if you like using sources from RPG book then i can and that background information is as lorewise as you can get in that RPG book.

What line of thinking? the official site of WOTLK is new, the fact still remains the old BLizzard site has not been updated, if their pointing to the RPG books who knows what information their pointing to as good lore because the books are old and have some retconned information does that mean Blizzard losing their marbles? no ofc not, their just not updating the website which therefore imo makes the elderly RPG books not as creadable as the WOTLK official site or otherwise, new information even if not every character has been changed.

What fictional character? what are you talking about, the RPG background information is not from a ficitonal character, the FAQ is not a fictionla character so what do you mean? if your talking about Brann Bronzebeard hes basically the avatar of whoever is writing the new books, so technically he is not a fictional character, just a fictional name. Just like Bob filtch is the writing of the old books.

At least the Books contains lore information which is more then can be said for a FAQ. Again would you care to find me a single source that stats that a FAQ can be consideret canon, because since you feel that you are entitled to disagree with a Official site that stats that the RPG's is canon then I believe I'm just as entitled to ask you for proof, especially since the FAQ is posted on a website that belongs to Worldofwarcraft which was where I found my proof.

Thats just as much necromancy as it's Warlock Magic, Warlock magic is the ability to summon outer world beings such as the infernals, and the Doomguards which is hardly weaklings

These monstrous, fiery warriors are nearly immune to magic and can defeat entire armies with their sheer strength alone

When mortals recall the brutal terror of the Burning Legion’s armies, they likely think first of the doomguard. These ironfisted demons serve as the Burning Legion’s captains and generals. Countless worlds have fallen to their brilliant and ruthless military tactics. A doomguard’s prowess at commanding large-scale battles does not reduce the demon’s hunger for personal combat. In any conflict, a doomguard brings its powerful demonic abilities to where they can do the most damage, viciously slaughtering enemy troops or personally eliminating a bothersome mage. While most doomguard remain unquestioning and loyal servants to the lords of the Burning Legion (nathrezim and pit lords, among others), some ascend to this tier of command themselves and are among the most powerful demons in the Legion. In fact, most demons that remain in Azeroth after the failure of the second invasion are now under the control of various doomguard lords, ruling from such places as Jaedenar, Mannoroc Coven, and the Tainted Scar

Please don't try to discredit Demons they are in all aspects far more powerful then the undeads.

You have not shown him taking over a mind that 1. Actively resist him 2. Has Magical Barriers 3. Is higher ranking in intelligence then a Ice Troll.

The Most official source I can get is that site yes, however I have never in my life looked at a FAQ as any kind of reliable lore, the story concerning the Dungeon and the Lich King is Lore, no question about it, but the other part isn't lore, since again what does it contains regarding the lore except those 10 words?

Not every Character, again show me how many of the Characters in Shadows and Light and the other books that have actually undergone major retcons, show me examples of the Books being outdated else I will happily make this again "A official Blizzard site that says RPG = Lore>your Opinion" and again the site that contains information about the game is a site that belongs under the Worldofwarcraft.com, which means they have had there hands on that site very recently ore have there hands on it, why not change it then? Again because they see no reason to do so.

Those two things cannot in any way be put next to each other, The RPG for instance contain's facts end of story, Bronzebeard is a fictionel character that exist in the game the thought of comparing him to a writer is not just, just like you will not accept what Korialstrasz is saying which you have to by your own logic since he is basically just a figur for the writer.

The Lich King Arthas has set in motion events that could lead to the extinction of all life on Azeroth. With the armies of the undead and the necromantic power of the plague threatening to sweep across the land, only the mightiest heroes can oppose the Lich King's will and end his reign of terror for all time.

This quote state that it only takes the mightiest heroes to end Lich King's reign of terror for all time. The heroes mentioned are the ones Lich King speak of in the WotLK trailer:

"Come you heroes"

Originally posted by Becci
This quote state that it only takes the mightiest heroes to end Lich King's reign of terror for all time. The heroes mentioned are the ones Lich King speak of in the WotLK trailer:

Of cause that is Lore too Becci it's mentioned in the FAQ which is published on a Official site, well I suppose we can put the whole "outside help" into the grave then.

Originally posted by DarkC
No, not really.

I’ve already told you in my previous post that you keep simply throwing what I say right back at me. Only, unlike me, you have absolutely no proof, no justification, no support for them. Therefore, every time you say something like this is, it’s simply just shit because there’s no backup.

It’s just noise, that you keep ploughing on with, because you seem so desperate to reply just for the sake of replying.

It’s not up to you to decide who is a “good” or “bad” debater, because you’re not doing a spectacular job yourself.

I mentioned in my previous post a numerous list of faults and fallacies which you resort to, and listed examples as well. Refer to that.

Excuses. You drag it on to some length yourself, then when your support fails you utterly you simply dismiss it as being “irrelevant”.

They’re just excuses for you to retreat to when you realize you cannot back up your arguments.

You’re making a mockery of my sources of support now?

What are we in, a junior high debate? Get with the program.

Obviously not, he’s more attributed with ice, as shown in the novels, the games, and the manga. It doesn’t mean that his standard breath attack (a wave of ice that contains thousands of crab-like creatures) is any less devastating than the lava from the blacks, the fire from the reds, or the sands of the bronze. They’re simply all in a different style, but one is not more powerful than the other.

Anything else to add, Cap’n Obvious?

A mind ray?

Read above, his breath attack as shown in Day of the Dragon is like a bigger and more devastating Cone of Cold that contains myriad creatures to further cause damage.

I don’t know where you’re getting this information about a “mind ray” breath attack, but you seem sadly misinformed.

See above, you’re simply just backing out. If you had said this at the very beginning, instead of pursuing the point further, you would have had more credibility. Right now it’s just another excuse.

I find it intriguing how you continue to make these shit claims about you having shown me something many times and also having given evidence, that nearly 100% of the time that I’ve had to correct you on. Some of the time you are correct, but others, you’re quite wrong.

What’s even more interesting is that you never actually bother to go back and find where you’re presenting so-called evidence.

What on Earth else could he be doing?

According to you the Scourge army in Icecrown Citadel right now has the power to wipe out the mortal races down the drain (it does not, see above point on population distribution, even with that the Scourge army are badly outnumbered).

So despite that let’s assume he did. So he’s sitting on his butt with the power to wipe out the mortal races, add their dead to his own forces, and so far he has done absolutely nothing.

“My King, shouldn’t we be doing something by now? We have the power to.”
“Nah, I think I’ll enjoy the scenery thanks.”

Seriously.

See above point, even with the non-combatants taken out of the whole of the Alliance and Horde (which are about half, I’m being generous…this is World of WarCraft, after all) the Scourge are outnumbered two to one. Slightly more than that, even.

Good to know you’re reading all my posts properly once again, genius.

Yeah, his army can devastate a force two times larger than they on an open battlefield, that are smarter, more coordinated, and diverse.

Go figure.

Right now the Lich King is much more powerful than Kil’Jaeden.
He knows this.
Kil’Jaeden knows this.

So why would he “pop” up in person?

If the Legion could field their full army, then the Scourge are doomed anyways.

Ive got more proof than you have, ive got RPG, official sites and WoWwiki which has its own refrences besides, youve got a few quotes, half of which are irrelevent, thats not a good argument all, show me your best arguments, lets finnish this once and for all, wahts your arguments? list them please and with the fact and proof that you claim you have besides them and then ill do the same.

I can say if your not a good debator at all, just like you can say I dont know much about the lore, i can say the same about you and your weak range of arguments and your obvious misunderstanding of information.

Your points are irrelvent ,you cannot back your points up, a lot of the quotes youve given me are irrelvent 100%

your sourcies are weak, theres nothing to make of them except mockeries...

you dont have any credability, since you have no points backed up with zero evidence as well.....so ime on better footing than you are.

Your the one inventing reasons why he is just sitting, he could have easily by now wiped all the forces out of Northrend, hes doing nothing for a reason we dont know yet, he has more than enough forces to wipe out most of the world once again and this time he can actually join in with the forces.

No not at all, the Horde and Alliance are not stated in any source youve shown so far to have number superiority in their armies, the entire church of the light religion has around 800k members, some of which include horde as well, this is the belivers in this religion, you have no idea how many actual soldiers are accounted for in this, and its not likely theres mo soldiers in the populations of all the alliance than there are civilions either.

Then youve got the Horde which contribute to some of the religion seen above, not to mention their only 400k strong, the entire horde, trolls etc etc

then you have to ask yourself, can a footman really take out, perhaps two footman take out an abomination, hell they are not likely to be able to take on a skeleton/zombie due their undead adventages in actual lorewise battle, not gameplay.

Its not larger, show me your undeniable proof please of them having larger forces, and smarter? no not really, LK>any mortal who will be leading and most if not all immortals.

Prove this, again youve got nothing but non accurate rubbish to say the Legion is so much greater than the scourge, every time one of the legion falls they will add to the scourge as well, imo an undead Felguard>normal one.

Originally posted by Becci
This quote state that it only takes the mightiest heroes to end Lich King's reign of terror for all time. The heroes mentioned are the ones Lich King speak of in the WotLK trailer:

Well then Blizzard have for some reason put WoW heroes>>>>Aspects, Kiljaeden, Pantheon etc etc, as it says quite clearly (hell its your quote not mine ime using)

ONLY the mightiest heroes have any chance

"sigh"

Originally posted by Utrigita
At least the Books contains lore information which is more then can be said for a FAQ. Again would you care to find me a single source that stats that a FAQ can be consideret canon, because since you feel that you are entitled to disagree with a Official site that stats that the RPG's is canon then I believe I'm just as entitled to ask you for proof, especially since the FAQ is posted on a website that belongs to Worldofwarcraft which was where I found my proof.

Thats just as much necromancy as it's Warlock Magic, Warlock magic is the ability to summon outer world beings such as the infernals, and the Doomguards which is hardly weaklings

MoM 115

MG 37 & 38

Please don't try to discredit Demons they are in all aspects far more powerful then the undeads.

You have not shown him taking over a mind that 1. Actively resist him 2. Has Magical Barriers 3. Is higher ranking in intelligence then a Ice Troll.

The Most official source I can get is that site yes, however I have never in my life looked at a FAQ as any kind of reliable lore, the story concerning the Dungeon and the Lich King is Lore, no question about it, but the other part isn't lore, since again what does it contains regarding the lore except those 10 words?

Not every Character, again show me how many of the Characters in Shadows and Light and the other books that have actually undergone major retcons, show me examples of the Books being outdated else I will happily make this again "A official Blizzard site that says RPG = Lore>your Opinion" and again the site that contains information about the game is a site that belongs under the Worldofwarcraft.com, which means they have had there hands on that site very recently ore have there hands on it, why not change it then? Again because they see no reason to do so.

Those two things cannot in any way be put next to each other, The RPG for instance contain's facts end of story, Bronzebeard is a fictionel character that exist in the game the thought of comparing him to a writer is not just, just like you will not accept what Korialstrasz is saying which you have to by your own logic since he is basically just a figur for the writer.

The FAQ does have that bit of Lore information....so it does contain it. Your saying ime disagreeing with an official site? the FAQ IS ON the official and recent site, so you are being hypocrite just because you dont like the FAQ information.

Not at all, in an actual battle the undead are rising as they fall anyway and so are their enemies who are killed, also as powerful as a their higher soldiers are, their not half as numerous as the lesser Burning legion beings

Ive shown you him mind controlling ,thats my basis, now its your turn to state why LK cannot take over the minds of more intelligent beings even with his unfathomable power and 10k conciousness, you need to tell me, this is your turn to add to this side of the debate, if my proof is the fact he can mind control and does it easily too, its your turn to show where you think LK definaltey cannot MC dragons or more intelligent beings.

Ime not using anything other than the lore parts about the LK so how is the rest of the FAQ relevent? its all official.

The books are outdated because they have old lore, full stop, their ancient therefore imo they are not as good sources of info as new information that takes new things into account.

No you miss understand, Brann Bronzebeard is the story behind the RPG books, apprently hes the one writing the accounts behind the new RPG books, which ofc, hes fictional, so hes not really writing them is he, their real books made by real people.

Originally posted by DarkC
If they weren’t relevant why would you contradict yourself and argue about them as though they were, then curiously after I send you packing with no real evidence to prove me wrong about my support, you resort to accusing me of irrelevancy and make constant claims that they’re either not fact (which they are).

You keep backing out constantly instead of addressing the points. You’re presuming to tell me that I lack support, as if you had more than I did, when you’re complaining that you have no real support in the first place. And when I call you out for it, you simply retaliate by throwing it back as though it meant something. When I call you out I explain why I have grounds, or why you’re wrong. You make lame half-baked explanations in the hopes that I will accept them and move on, pretending that you’re actually justified in making such ridiculous amounts of logical fallacies.

Every single post you make is a self-contradiction.

Oh, making a rather pathetic parody of my argument? So this what you resort to, a grossly mockering mimicking of my words. Sorry, but by no means does it constitute an actual argument. If this is what you call debating then you are sadly mistaken.

Another excuse for a lack of a reply. Don’t bother replying next time if you’re wasting your posts in this fashion, period.

What, Stormwind as a soverign kingdom in its own right?

Terenas said to the young Prince Wrynn in the Tides of Darkness novel, “Know that Lordaeron will assist you in regaining your Kingdom.”. Sorry, but that’s a direct quote taken from the novel. There is no denying that King Terenas, the ruler of Lordaeron himself, just acknowledged Stormwind as being completely independent of Lordaeron or any other human nation.

Even the fictional rulers of the land that you are so eager to overhype simply because it makes your party look better seem to disagree with your sentiments, haha.

Are you comparing sizes now, of all things?

Yes, he is the most powerful of the Pantheon in terms of combat and warfare. Don’t pass it off as a “false” fact if you cannot prove it.

Consult your Warcraft III game manual again. Besides stating Sargeras as the champion of the Pantheon of Titans, the thing also said quite plainly that he was “The Titan’s greatest warrior, the defender of their worlds”. They left him in place to maintain order over the worlds they shaped, if you don’t remember.

Aman’Thul was powerful in his own right, but some of that was social due to his title as High Father. He was incredibly powerful in a different fashion, not in destruction, but in creation; his powers dealt with having to shape worlds, not rip them asunder. His brother Sargeras was most venerated with combat, that’s why they named him their champion and warrior.

Your entire analogy here is moot. The whole reason behind Darth Vader leading the Imperial army is because he has far more open battlefield experience in war that started when he was only a young man, than the Emperor, who has far more ability in dealing with political matters than those of full-scale military ones. He’s a powerful Sith…he just can’t lead an army into battle properly.

The whole point behind a champion, especially in the relative time age in the World of Warcraft, is to fully represent their political leaders in the field of combat mainly because their political leaders lack the ability to do so.

Like I said in my previous example of Lothar and Llane, Lothar was named champion because he was better at fighting, Llane was the King because it was his lineage and could rule a city so well as to bring it into a “golden age”. Llane can fight, but he has not been in and around the battlefield the same way as the champion was.

No, he wouldn’t become champion period, because it did not behoove him to fight, as I have said earlier.

Nope, you haven’t crushed squat. See above.

Yet another sad debate tactic, assuring someone else they have lost without proper or irrefutable support.

Problem is I have more evidence than your scraps of irrelevent quotes from a few books.....your a joke but one that is not even slightly amusing. You are delusioned, as my main post above says, list your points ,ill prob annhilate them all in one blow and when youve got now argumnets, your many posts of mainly just bashing and weak workarounds to mimic real points are getting boring.

Another mimic workaround...

Ime comparing sizes because if Scourge>>the main and largest human kingdom, it would if it so wished slaughter the others....the Alliance had nothing but death to lie back on.

No you cant prove anything, Champion does not mean he is more powerful than Aman'thul, simple, that alone blows apart your assumption, like most of your other assumptions. Same with Darth Vader being basically the Champion for the Emperor, its the same relationship, onyl where the Emperor is far more powerful.

Ive crushed all your points already, your just making poor workarounds, sort of like trying to stick them together with celetape.

Originally posted by DarkC
Okay, so you presume to lecture me on debate tactics, when you’re in absolutely no position at all to lecture anyone on debate tactics.

First of all, your original argument is moot in the first place completely. It cannot be supported by anything besides pure speculation, which in a debate such as this, is completely out of place. This debate requires something that is known, something that is hard, concrete fact. This is something which you continually fail to understand despite attempting to pass off, or pass yourself off, as some grand guru of debate that seems to think that everyone is underneath him. Which you clearly are not, since you don’t even seem to understand the basic rules of debating.

A point, any point at all in a debate requires proof, or some sort of reference as backup. It doesn’t matter how little or how much is known about the subject matter. You come in here claiming that the Lich King would win yet also claim that you know almost nothing about his true power, and also make “guesses” that always seem to put the Lich King in a positive light, no matter what it is. Sitting on his frozen throne doing nothing? Oh, no, he’s just waiting. Despite your enormous lack of facts and support, and Becci and I’s abundance of it, you still somehow believe uncontestedly that the Lich King would win. Whenever Becci and I threw the evidence in your face, you simply choose to ignore it completely (despite your shit claim that the subject was completely ambiguous). You also insist on overhyping a lot, when I’ve had to remind you of the facts. And when you realize that your lack of solid proof is killing you, you blame it on the thread creator and continue to reply just for the sake of replying, because it will save you face.

What you don’t realize, or what you are in complete denial of, is that you’re simply digging your own grave. You’re so far past the point of return that you don’t remember when you crossed it, or what it looks like. Tsk tsk.

That’s not the extent of it. Despite you digging yourself into a hole, you somehow think you have the nerve to pretend that you’re still in the right while you’re doing it. Let’s use. When I slam an irrefutable point in your face (Horde + Alliance > Scourge, or Sargeras being the strongest Titan in combat), you do one of a few things. You simply abuse the point itself instead of addressing its contents properly (see your response above). Sometimes you’ll argue, but if the point is in any way irrelevant to the main title of this thread you’re either lazy or cannot find a good counter-response and instead counter by insisting you’ve won (or that I failed) without even bothering to explain why. When I do ask why, you simply either resort to insulting my points (What? Where’d that come from?) again or continuously overhyping the Lich King. You also seem to be, in more than a few cases, insisting that the topic is irrelevant (In that case, why did you even bother addressing it in the first place? What a shit excuse. If it’s irrelevant don’t bother to address it in the first place at all, otherwise don’t even attempt to pull off that excuse.)

Perhaps the thing that is most ridiculous in my eyes is your lack of originality. The sad thing is, it’s not even used for debating, simply insulting, and even that you cannot accomplish properly. More than once you’ve copied either the way I talk (a phrase I said, for example, or resort to a ridiculous amount of cliché internet “memes” (Epic fail, !!!111, etc) or exaggerated sarcasm simply for the sake of trash talking (not even proper debating, just trash talking). Also, you exaggerate what I say to you, then try to toss it back at me.

You attempt spam laughing, much more than I do, and you still call me out for it (Ridiculous, yet another example of your vaunted hypocrisy). And in an attempt to make yourself look good doing it, you pretend that you’re the one debating properly, when in fact you’re doing everything wrong. Not just one thing either, everything.

See, all of this is…well, for lack of a better term…“funny”. Also quite pathetic as well.

All you’re doing, from my point of view, is pretty much hammering on your keyboard and hoping that something intelligent comes out.

Out of all the posts I am replying to, I really look forward to your lame attempts to defend yourself from this one. I really do, haha.

I don’t know what’s happened to you to make your ego swell up to the size of Mount Olympus, but you used to be half decent and respectful at debates. Remember “Starcraft vs Halo”?

I thought you conceded with me earlier that neither the Legion or the Scourge are completely destroyed, just awaiting a chance? Apparently not. Yet, another case of self-contradiction.

The Legion didn’t trip up of their own, it was the actions of Malfurion and Illidan that made them trip up. When the fracas was over, do you think the people celebrated by congratulating the twins or cheering the stupidity of the Legion Commander? Or when Malfurion summoned the power of Nordrassil to blow Archimonde up when he had his guard down to absorb its energies? The Scourge never accounted for that. Neither did Archimonde.

I’m fully aware of what happened before the timeline was messed up, in the War of the Ancients novels. This was the lore taken from the original Warcraft III manual.

However, the whole point behind the WotA trilogy was that Nozdormu was severely messed up by the Old Gods, and out of desperation he sent the three people he knew would preserve the timeline; Brox, Krasus, and Rhonin. History was, in the end, unchanged majorly, although there were a few slight alterations to the timeline.

Since original history was changed, the “altered” history is predominant, as proven by characters and events shown in the WoW game itself and lore. (The abundance of blue dragons, when according to original history in Day of the Dragon Malygo’s flight was completely wiped out). So, you are wrong.

Ime far superior to you at debating, this much is shown by the fact ime taking on all the people in this thread at once, Becci who has few points atm but is trying, you who seems to be making same points over and over and delusions without proving anything, not even your irrelevencies, and Utrigos who has some good points and is keeping civil, learn from him if you dont like my lecturing.

My original argument is how LK is so incredibly powerful and is rated high above almost all beings, he is rated among the most powerful in the universe in the Wrath of the Lich King official site (better proof imo than a few quotes from books you cannot show me) and a further proof Riten has shown that he is among the most powerful the world has ever seen, Malygos is not among the most powerful, none of the aspects are....you couldnt line Malygos next to the Old Gods, or Aman'Thul or Sargerus but obviously Blizzard are putting LK under that list.

You and Becci are delusional if you have any support, ive already destroyed your what was it? 4 quotes? a few of which if not most irrelvent to the debate anyway?......you fail Dark C on so many levels. I think your simply spitting out what your doing, trying to save face instead of conceding to my superior points and evidence I can actually show most of.

ive already told you, ime digging yours, not mine, and your already lieing in it, you have not realised yet.

You saying I should simply ignore your irrelvent points? I am mostly, if you notice a lot of my posts dont include some of your points or dont address them, but ive got to point them out for the sake of it, if Utrigos made an irrelvent point I wouldnt just rudely ignore it. Also thats your problem, nothing is irrefutable so far at all, you pulled out a few crappy pieces of evidence by saying Horde=400k and alliance=800k without any idea of what those numbers are attached to, you have no clue at all now your desperatley picking at the crumbling pieces of your argument basis.

I copy your text to further mock your foolery and how your contradciting yourself....I prob couldnt think of such idiocy myself, only you could do that Dark C .

Spam laughing? i dont spam anything, you spam "HAHA" like some little kid mashing the keys.

I defeated you in that thread and ill defeat you in this, at least in that you had some good arguments and could back some of them up, unforatunatley in this one youve several times straw manned off to some irrelvent sub debate to try and escape the major themes we were discussing.

The legion is basically hammered, down the drain, I would be very surprised if they returned again for both their current affaris (2 commanders gone, one of them the founder and most powerful) AND the plots sake, I mean seriously another invasion would sort of drool on a bit.

No its obvious, Scourge are knocking out most of anything they set their eyes on, but as soon as Archimodne comes in and the stupid Nethrezim who for all their stated intellect have shown nothing but their foolery (prob dumb comanders like Archimonde messing them up with weak plans) in command of the scourge instead of LK, then the Scourge and the legion are defeated.

From your own description itself, it doenst say Sargerus was making any spellwork, he was still summoned, Ill w8 for someone to show me the proof of how Sargerus and the events around the sundering were changed, if this is changed apprently as well, then this helps my argument with Utrigos.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well then Blizzard have for some reason put WoW heroes>>>>Aspects, Kiljaeden, Pantheon etc etc, as it says quite clearly (hell its your quote not mine ime using)

[b]ONLY the mightiest heroes have any chance

"sigh" [/B]

Or Lich King is not as powerful as you think he is and you just do not want to accept it.

He could be, like many other characters has been, powerful indirectly (which he has proven to be, and is ALL he has been proven to be) although when it come down to direct engagement he is not as powerful as you consider him to be.

Originally posted by DarkC

And he has done absolutely nothing since the merging with Ner’Zhul, except make one failed assault upon Azeroth. And he’s sat on his butt ever since.

Bravo, Arthas.

Not as a whole, but agents of the Legion remain everywhere on Azeroth. Battling would draw far too much attention. Like I said (which you seemed to ignore, you ignore a lot of things) the Legion likes to destroy their enemy from within as well as without. This was the entire reason why the Order of Tirisfal was set up, was to combat the demons that were working in more subtle fashions. After the first Sundering Azeroth had become the prime target, and the demons still have not cracked it yet. Magna Aegwynn is over 800 years old, and she was the last real Guardian. The Guardians are supposed to live for centuries.

How does it work against them? Corrupting things, delving into minds, manipulating…those are all things that give you some insight as to what your enemy is like, for when it comes to the time to eliminate them, you know exactly what to do, exactly what their weaknesses and tendencies are. Why would they attempt open warfare when there are better methods?

Yes, considering that Sargeras formed the Burning Legion from the demons he had conquered. He dispersed his agents to every corner of the universe, warped that which he touched, and made his army. They had conquered many worlds before setting on Azeroth and seeing the Well of Eternity. This was ten thousand years ago. The Burning Legion is much older.

Tell me, how did the Scourge succeed, but the Legion fail?

Here’s a list:
Scourge successes:

-Reducing the whole of Lordaeron to rubble and ashes
-Making a huge, ugly scar up the face of Quel’Thalas and Eversong, and tearing down half of Silvermoon
-Taking a massive chunk out of the human population (most populated race at the time)
-Nearly wiped out the High Elves to extinction

Burning Legion successes:
-Split the entire world into pieces
-Nearly wiped out the Night Elves to extinction (most populated race at the time)
-Claimed almost the whole of ancient Kalimdor as their own, and chased the Night elves all the way back to Mount Hyjal (which is a colossal distance, if you look at the world map)
-Took a huge chunk out of the Tauren population
-Took a huge chunk out of the Furbolg population
-Took a huge chunk out of the Dwarven population
-Killed quite a few Demigods (Aviana, Malorne, Agamaggan among them)

Neither Legion or Scourge have failed, nor have they fully succeeded, you’re simply downplaying my side and overhyping yours up, yet again.
Yep, someone’s a fanboy all right. Getting carried away now, aren’t we?

And I’m pretty sure that Stormwind counted as a “small” Keep/Castle, right?

You’re at the point where you’re discarding points that are relevant to the discussion at hand, simply because they go against you. There are quite a lot of humans and a few Kings that ruled outside Lordaeron. And you’re telling me that I need to learn history?

Thoras Trollbane, Genn Greymane, Perenolde before he betrayed the others etc, they were all kings in their own right. Even Lothar had some royal blood in him.

It’s not a matter of “could have done”, it’s a matter of what has been done already. You’re still in this mystical etherrealm of “could have”s and “should have”s, neither of which truly belong in this debate, at all. Point stands, Scourge has accomplished nothing greater than what the Legion has in the past.

Considering that the elderly and the young make up less than 20% of a normal population distribution, that doesn’t eliminate much at all. And you seem to be very unfamiliar with this concept. Read up, now.

The whole population of the alliance, nope, the Horde? Almost. Even the Horde children fight, they’re used to it, they’re brought up around it. And they’re definitely physically capable; at six years old, Thrall was six feet in height and already bulky. (Lord of the Clans novel). The Horde are a lot different, they’re a much more savage bunch when roused. Even the women.

Wholly put together, you seem too busy to notice that the Alliance-Horde army is still larger than the Scourge army. Put together, the population of the Alliance and Horde are at 1,200,000. Taking noncombatants into account (most women, children, and the elderly) into account, divide that number by 2 (which is being very generous, by the way). You’re still left with about 600,000 facing 250,000 of Scourge (minus what Arthas lost in the assault on Azeroth). The Scourge are still outnumbered, more than two to one.

They’re going to get annihilated. You know, maybe that’s why the Horde and the Alliance launched an expedition in the first place?

Tsk tsk, I wouldn’t laugh, considering I pretty much just destroyed your argument using information from the same source that you stated, that you used to base your original point on in the first place. Do you find the fact that you are so utterly wrong amusing?

The irony is so terribly delicious right now, that if I bottled a juice with this flavor I would make millions.

So is this your defense, you continue to make a parody of what I say. Not only is this perpetual, but expected as well.

Refer to post above. You continue to bluster on despite the fact that you are clearly in the wrong.

So? if he wants to sit he can be my guest, if he wants to get up for one and kill a few dragon aspects and annhilate the spirit of Elune then he can do that as well, i wont stop him doing anything....

No, what works against them is the fact theyve had all this experiance, time and apprent ability, yet they have failed utterly and so far have lost 2 commanders, one of htem being the founder and most powerful of the legion, yet theyve only had a few major battles, the scourge in one big sweep knocked out everything in their paths.

Why do you keep spouting such BS? first even if somehow you provide real evidence for Legion being the reason for the splitting of the world, thats nothing.....Nerzhuel as an Orc ended up destroying a whole planet, good for the legion noobs and you cant expect me to belive that that was part of their plan either, it was an accident in the old lore and in the new from what youve said of the books.

Ime overhyping nothing, as ive said many times, the Scourge have succeeded in every plan so far and have lost nothing, the Legion have failed quite a few even with all this experiance and apprent power at the same itme as losing their main commanders, the Scourge have lost notinh at all.

Not at all, getting carried away? whos possibly able to outsmart him? noone...

And their kingdoms and sovreignity is anything on Terenes? no....they are irrelvent

no the point is cracked to pieces, the Scourge have succeeded all so far and survived all so far the Legion has succeeded in some and lost many, as well as not survived, their main commanders dead, one decorating Hyjal like a pretty monument, prob to be resurrected when LK feels it necessary.

Right so the elderly and such are going to be conscripted "starts to clap" well done!! and your assuming the size of the Elderly, women and Children

Now your completyl collapsing, so rediculous...even the children fight? please...to have to result to trying to turn this into something intelligent is funny, but no ill not do a "Dark C" and spam laughter.

No, you fail to notice the Alliance-Horde information youve found includes everything, the Alliance part being the Religious base, not just their population which makes it a major fail in teh respect it says clearly on the same source of info that Horde are also added to this religion.

Also no, your not listening, obviously you need to read through the posts again, your losing the grip on the situation, the 250k was in Icecrown glacier alone, not the entire scourge army. Oh and if Arthas gets up, that population even if the elderly and children get thrown into war (lulz) that population is going down.

No you destroyed notihng, your mimicing an argumetn and posting hypocricy, your not funny, just sad for finding 800k and mashing it into your post in idiocy and igorence of what that number means.

I have to make parodies, your posts are comedy incarnate, ime just helping it along.

Originally posted by Becci
Or Lich King is not as powerful as you think he is and you just do not want to accept it.

He could be, like many other characters has been, powerful indirectly (which he has proven to be, and is ALL he has been proven to be) although when it come down to direct engagement he is not as powerful as you consider him to be.

How so? your own quote not mine, it says quite clearly as you pointed out "only" if you want to use quotes like that and information its fine with me.....lol....

you cant prove any of this assumption.....as you said "he could be" which is fine but when you said directly "direct engagement is not as powerful" you dont know this at all.

Originally posted by DarkC
No, they’re skeletal remnants of dragons that can fly and breathe ice.
That’s pretty much it.

They have no sense of autonomy.
No sense of intelligence.
No sense of strategy or planning on their own.
Dragons do.

Once the magic that controls them runs out or is cut off at the source, just like normal Necromancy, then they collapse.

As for matching with a fully mature dragon…in the Warcraft manga #2, Tyragosa was able to combat a frost wyrm in an extremely weakened state, and hold her own for some time. She’s still technically young for a dragon too, about Kalecgo’s age. They were supposed to be each other’s intended mates.

But go on, I’m curious as to find out why you believe that a skeleton is better than a living being. Where’s your proof, or are you making things up again?

Gee, I dunno…the Horde and Alliance, like I mentioned earlier.

Even with your mollycurdling about how many are actually going to enlist and fight, your Scourge are still outnumbered. Simple as that.

Have you honestly sunk so desperately low as to use flirtation as a sad attempt to pacify?

Please, tell me that right there was a joke.

“Most likely”.

Are you just being a fanboy again? Can you prove any of this?
No, you cannot, so why bother asking?

Another unsupported, fanatical fanboy statement.^

.Oh, so all e-laughter in general then?

Here. I’ll do the honors:

That was just for this post alone, so far.

So if I’m the one “spamming”…then you’re flooding and drowning us all.

The very fact that you actually took it upon yourself to make such a silly mockery and using capital letters (which I don’t remember using) of the fact that I find some of your posts funny really says a lot about how much such an insignificant thing like laughter actually gotten to you. Oh, and considering that you thought that being called a hypocrite was “flaming”, I’m not really surprised at all.

Not only can you fail to make an accurate parody, it isn’t even in context. Nor is it even creative (nice use of my 10-year old simile from earlier, really original I must say)

Considering that you seemed to think being called a hypocrite repeatedly was by definition “flaming”, I wouldn’t be surprised if you overreacted like a fifteen year old emo to something that in actuality is minor.

Quote me on this one directly, go back and find where I started everything.

Um, wait. You actually were the one starting assumptions. You even said it yourself earlier, remember?

That was the entire point and reasoning behind your “No one knows about the LK so therefore I base my entire argument upon pure speculation” charade.

You’re just contradicting yourself, yet again.

Interestingly enough, I never did once say that my assumptions where fact. My deductions are fact, but not my assumptions.

You very likely need to tell the difference between the two.

No, like I said they’re still High Elves, just with a huge lust for mana, a name change, and a burning desire for revenge. They’re not all dead, hence, not extinct. Physically they are still High Elves, just changed. They didn’t all suddenly spawn into Orcs, or Trolls, or whatnot. Ludicrous.

You’re twisting definitions of English words now, this is sad.

So far it hasn’t been too bad of a thing either. The only real bad cases are the Wretched.

Much.

He has had far more experience in both dealing with mortals and demons, the only reason of his demise was because he had to let his guard down in order to absorb Nordrassil’s energies, and Malfurion caught him unaware.

That does not make him any less wiser.

Here’s a word of advice; if you’re going to trash talk my debating try to at least supporting them for once like I do. Quotes, etc.

Otherwise, it simply just flies over my head. I’m confident because I’ve already proved your so called debate “skills” are complete shit, as posted above.

As for the lack of knowledge…let’s see, how many times have I had to correct you, and how many times have you tried to twist the factual lore to suit you when you were clearly in the wrong?

No, you don’t have a point at all.

All those points are made up for 100 fold greater than any dragon by the Fact the Lich King is controlling them who is>>other intellects.

It doesnt run out, otherwise there wouldnt be 250k sitting in icecrown, dont contradict your own points, youve already said somewhere that LK is building his army, if he had the old 10 secon+ gameplay timer on his army he isnt going ot be sitting around and there wouldnt be 250k in icecrown, once agian, stop making me have to lecture you on your own points and debating, its not funny.

Its logic, you think a skeletan that would survive a massive pike going through its body (hell its skeletal so it may even come out the other side) is going to be stronger than a dragon that would die of the same wound (then rise at the Lich Kngs command)

Outnumbered by children ,gee your right the Scourge are doomed.

Its funny i thought you would understhand that yourself but hell, i give you too much credit,seem i have to help you with debating AND comedy it was a joke.

The Scourge resurrect forces, so yeh.....they would have those classes, I said most likely because I dont know the entire class list you would have pulled out of your hat, so i had to say most likely before your information was on the board didnt I? dont be as weak minded in all this debate please...its quite annoying

Thats not spamming ,that was between points and the last "HAHAHAHA" was a mockery to your own point so you fall flat on your face in this respect, you seem to have no idea.

Originally posted by DarkC
Why are you still trying to form wild theories just for the sake of supporting your own unfounded argument?

Hostility number one, your first post against me I think it was, and you were hostile.

You immediatley started the assumptions when you started saying how characters would be above the Lich King.

Originally posted by Burning thought
How so? your own quote not mine, it says quite clearly as you pointed out "only" if you want to use quotes like that and information its fine with me.....lol....

you cant prove any of this assumption.....as you said "he could be" which is fine but when you said directly "direct engagement is not as powerful" you dont know this at all.

The most powerful "hero" of all time is Korialstrasz. I am pretty certain that the quote is not talking about him however. It is refering to the players in WoW. I do not want to use this kind, but since you are using facts that come not from book or games, I decided to use fact not from the books and games as well.

You also can not prove anything you have said about the Lich King. When I said "could be", I also meant the latter part and not only the first part. I guess I should have been a little more specific so you would have understood me better, so I will rephrase:

For all we know, he could only be good at indirect combat and warfare, like we have seen many characters before him be. Then when it come down to the core and a direct engagement, he could lack the capability to hit back with the same force that he has proven to manifest during over-time warfare.

Originally posted by DarkC
What race has the Scourge completely destroyed (other than Nerubians)?

Blood Elves are alive and prospering. So are the humans. You seem to have missed out on something.

Besides your repeated fanboyish bashing of Sargeras

regardless of the axes power even if it does hold the power of Elune it should not even get close to Sargarus.

Hahaha, did you not read a single thing I just said?

Nozdormu is not getting involved at all, therefore he is not going to die or do anything. Read my posts for once, small wonder why I’m so amused by this.

Unconfirmed and fanboyish. They have taken no action at all.

Um, dragons don’t cower. Do you remember where I showed you that Alexstrasza was prepared to sacrifice herself and the kin with her in order to destroy the portal if it was necessary?

Don’t be so ignorant.

Find a quote on that, you’ve already proven by yourself that it doesn’t take much for your hackles to rise up. Disappointing, really. You thought “flaming” was something akin to being called a hypocrite earlier.

Here, this is where you first reacted rather badly to being told plainly by me that you have very little idea what you’re talking about. (You didn’t.)

Dear dear.
I tell you that you’re unknowledgeable, and that you need to inform yourself rather than pretending, and you instantly start trash talking, haha.

Oh, and by the way…you still need to know what you’re talking about.

Where did I say that I was?
I said that Becci and I have been not “outright ranting and flaming”, and that you have. Not only that, you try to cover it up by attempting to blame us first, when you’re also wrong in that one regard (see above).

Learn to read my posts properly, I have lost count how many times I have had to tell you to read.

Seriously. It helps.

I already said once, I actually quoted that that Lich King has become one of the most powerful beings the world has ever known”.

Why are you bringing this up, even?

Oh, I don’t dispute that. Everyone has a right to.

When it gets to the point, however…where even after I’ve stated exactly which series and book and event that I get my information from that you deny it simply from the fact that I cannot scan or take a picture of the actual page (I neither own a scanner, nor a high enough quality camera) and that you are too lazy to buy it yourself…then that’s where it gets ridiculously stupid.

Here’s a rather juicy passage from the “moronic debate methods” or whatever that thread was called:

Requests for proof for fine when they’re reasonable, but not when the person wanting it gets to this extent of zealousness. I’ve given you the book, I’ve given you the author, if you really want to find proof then either buy the book yourself or send the author an email. Don’t complain about it or cop out the source simply because it cannot be easily provided. You’ve gone to the point where you’re actually attempt to deny/twist official lore itself, or cop that out. It’s ridiculous, it’s undeniable fact and somehow you still think you’re justified in doing it.

Point stands, it’s still a source; it can and will be used.

Everything is irrelevant in the end, yet you keep replying to it with full arguments. Go figure.

The thing is, Burning, I can make a case and you cannot because all you do is claim. That’s all you ever do, really. Once in a while you provide a lame excuse or explanation like now without ever specifying, you’re making lists without sources to where you got your information.

I do. Whenever I can, I go back and find something that I can use directly, hence my use of quoting your statements earlier to prove how terribly wrong you were before (see above if you want a reminder).

Without backup, any derogatory statements like the one you just said and keep spewing at me, are complete garbage. You waste your words, you’re simply replying just for the sake of it.

Read the last six replies and say that again, seriously.

And stop resorting to copying my phrases…it’s simply childish, is what it is.

250,000 undead, minus what was lost in the attack? She’s faced down the Hordes of the Legion before, which still outnumbered the Scourge.

As I’ve told you before so many times and have already mentioned above (seeing as how you continually forget or ignore this fact, the Aspects will not interfere into matters if they are already being handled by the mortal races, and evidently they already are. Both the Horde and the Alliance are deigning to send expeditions. The dragons, as they usually have, are content with watching the mortals mostly do their work.

None afaik, Neubians completly physically and high elves technically. Who on Azeroth have the Legion compeltly destroyed?

I did read your posts, I know full well Nozmordu knows time and knows when he is going to die, if hes going to die at the hands of the Lich King then he knows thats when hes going to die...

The portal will not resurrect them as a force against Azeroth after they die however and they didnt know for certain they would be defeated by Portal.

Bashing someone is hostiltiy, even if it is just calling someones points fanboyish theories

Your the one saying its ranting, what you call ranting I could call joking like the pigeon shit thing same with flaming, post where i flamed you please?

Well unless you can prove Malygos up there with the most powerful the world has ever known, standing side by side with the Old Gods, then why are you even trying to pull along and repair your broken arguments?

Your points are dead, using proof is fine, all your points are not as high proof howver regardless of what auther names you give me compared to an actual source i can show you, in which case all your information are low in creadability in comparison to my actual sites and official info i can show you then combine that with the fact half your quotes are irrelvent and dont help your point, its foolery.

yes I told you why i reply to your rubbish, for the sake of showing how stupid it is and hopefully you will not repeat it.

As ive said before and 100 times over, half your claims are not backed up by real evidence, half the facts themselves from your quotes are irrelvent, you make bad conclusions and weak assumptions based on the fact like as i said before, "zomg far more than the scourge" from the quote of some Elven soldier which doesnt really add up to much due to the fact you dont know where he is, can you show me where the elf is? for example if hes sitting behind a hill, the Horizon is a few metres away lol... , then we have the irrelvent dragon quote, you prob cannot provide anything real and useful.

learn scourge AND numbers please mr.

Originally posted by Becci
The most powerful "hero" of all time is Korialstrasz. I am pretty certain that the quote is not talking about him however. It is refering to the players in WoW. I do not want to use this kind, but since you are using facts that come not from book or games, I decided to use fact not from the books and games as well.

You also can not prove anything you have said about the Lich King. When I said "could be", I also meant the latter part and not only the first part. I guess I should have been a little more specific so you would have understood me better, so I will rephrase:

For all we know, he could only be good at indirect combat and warfare, like we have seen many characters before him be. Then when it come down to the core and a direct engagement, [b]he could lack the capability to hit back with the same force that he has proven to manifest during over-time warfare. [/B]

And you can use that fact all you like, obviously it says the ONLY thing that the Lich King can be defeated by is the greatest heroes, it doenst specifiy on who they are, but it by saying only in your source knocks out aspects, pantheon etc etc

What we do know he is from FAQ, books and other sources, among the most powerful the world has ever seen, infnite in necromancy power, all powerful, unfathomably powerful etc etc that alone is enough to put him up there in the leagues of the highers and "should" be enough to silence those who dislike him or do not wish to belive his power who make it seem he is on a level lesser than Aspects and such.

Originally posted by DarkC
Um…how is that an advantage?

And would said ghouls survive a stab through the head, or decapitation? No, they wouldn’t.

Even though the disease cloud technically was only restricted to meat wagons and abominations? The Scourge wouldn’t have completely rotted corpses in their ranks, they want undead warriors, not wrecks.

Besides, it’s not as if the Alliance and Horde are completely helpless when it comes to disease. Both the Horde shamans and the Alliance paladins are quite capable of wiping a battalion clean of disease and sickness, not to mention the numerous priests on either faction.

Like I said before, this is only if the magic channeling them continues to function. Whether it’s Ziggurats or Necromancers.

On the other hand, if a Paladin or a priest resurrects his comrade, it’s permanent.

Your notion of military strategy is laughable.

So if the Scourge were indeed so mindless, it’s exactly what they will do. Because they have little or no autonomy, their thinking for the most part are limited, especially if you’re talking about the mere infantry. Without someone to lead them properly in battle (The Lich King won’t be too effective at this, even with the mind of Arthas he is still inexperienced in military operations compared to some of the leaders of the Alliance and Horde. Thrall and Bronzebeard, for example.) they will be nothing more than a huge mindless horde. They can be baited, feinted, let into ambushes and traps and movements.

How on earth can he know every single possible tactical outcome in every single battlefield his forces are on simultaneously?

I say that the dragon aspects know, to an extent, of each other’s powers because it has been shown in the past. Nice to see that instead of asking for proof or even demanding for proof like you have before, you instantly launch into a silly tirade about how I use words. This isn’t a semantics argument, Burning, you’re simply making attempts to turn it into one.

It has been shown that despite Ysera supposedly having complete mastery over her realm, the Emerald Dream, Neltharion, for one, can apparently invade it and use it to spy or track beings that he wishes to. He even knows how to hide his own trace in the Emerald Dream, and can mask his own presence in the Dream from even Ysera. He even assaulted Malfurion while the Night Elf was “sitting right beside her”, albeit separate on the mortal plane.

The Aspects have interacted and communed since the beginning, do you really think that after all this time, that they would know nothing about each other’s abilities?

If you had actually taken the time to read the post in the context of its content then you would realize that the use of the word “I believe” did not actually assume on part anything in the debate content or any supportive arguments.

If you had actually taken the time to read the post properly, which you have so often failed, you would realize that I chose the words “I believe that” because I wasn’t entirely sure exactly which spell that I had mentioned earlier was being discussed by you and Urtri, since you mentioned it as a slightly. The ambiguity has to do with which content is being discussed, not in the actual content itself.

The very fact that you are here seeing the words “I believe” and instantly forming a hasty generalization of your own without bothering to read the post proves my point before entirely. I didn’t even need to say anything before, in fact, because you’ve done it yourself.

You’re so obsessed with trying to prove absolutely everything wrong that you are taking words out of context entirely.

It's sad, really.

Prob not but they would survive a stab in the chest, arm, stomach several times over, will a man? no...and will he rise again after? yes, will the fallen undead? yes again...they would rise until the source (LK) of their undeath is stopped.

The disease, curses etc etc, everything would stil be a very powerful attack even if it can be removed, while priests or shamans are removing something or healing (which the undead dont need) they are not doing other things and Obseidion destroyers would put an end to half the buffs and debuffs in the whole area.

What if its the LK? their their undieing forces, also you cant expect me to belive the Alliance are going to have much luck at all, their soldiers will be rising up besides them, their figuires of army size will dissolve as the Scourge increase, they will be overwhelmed even if your assumptions on their size is indeed over the scourge....

The LK can see the battlefield, and the future of it, if he sees things he can react if he needs to, the likelyness is that he will just swarm and the Horde/Allies will be annhilated due to numerical superirty and troop superirty, Frost Wyrm>>>Alliance soldiers.

Through his 10k conciousness I assume ,if its not that, then its something else, the same way he knows how Arthas will be his champion before the scourge even begin and what will happen with Archimonde.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The FAQ does have that bit of Lore information....so it does contain it. Your saying ime disagreeing with an official site? the FAQ IS ON the official and recent site, so you are being hypocrite just because you dont like the FAQ information.

Not at all, in an actual battle the undead are rising as they fall anyway and so are their enemies who are killed, also as powerful as a their higher soldiers are, their not half as numerous as the lesser Burning legion beings

Ive shown you him mind controlling ,thats my basis, now its your turn to state why LK cannot take over the minds of more intelligent beings even with his unfathomable power and 10k conciousness, you need to tell me, this is your turn to add to this side of the debate, if my proof is the fact he can mind control and does it easily too, its your turn to show where you think LK definaltey cannot MC dragons or more intelligent beings.

Ime not using anything other than the lore parts about the LK so how is the rest of the FAQ relevent? its all official.

The books are outdated because they have old lore, full stop, their ancient therefore imo they are not as good sources of info as new information that takes new things into account.

No you miss understand, Brann Bronzebeard is the story behind the RPG books, apprently hes the one writing the accounts behind the new RPG books, which ofc, hes fictional, so hes not really writing them is he, their real books made by real people.

And you are just as great a hypocrite BT because you doesn't agree with the exact same site on matters concerning the RPG's. And I doesn't in any way disagree with what the feuture says but again to this Day I have never ever in my entire life seen a FAQ as a source of Lore, and again find me a SOURCE I don't care where it's from it can concern the jumping of planes I don't care find me a Source that stats that a FAQ can be used as Lore information.

That is not correct BT DarkC has already called you out on that one and proved you wrong, the Scrouge is at a Max 250.000 Undead the Burning Legion fills the entire horizon and that is just a fraction, and you think it's only the scrouge that can ressurrect the fallen? The Natherazim invented Necromancy.

I'm not the one claiming that the Lich King can bypass a number of magical errected magical barriers BT you are, The Burden of Proof is not placed on me, contrary to what you believe it's on you. But fine I will do so again 1. He has never done it 2. He require the persons to be undead to take control over them 3. The Nerubians was immune and highly intelligent 4. None of those beings he has mindcontrolled was protected with magical wardens 5. If he could easily have mindcontrolled the Humans then why didn't he began a uprising one kingdom against another it would most certainly make his army 1. Bigger 2. Weaken his foes. Yet he hasn't done it.

It's official then that the Mightiest Heroes is a match for the Lich King fair enough. A shame that such a Statement has not been given concerning Malygos instead Malygos actions require the direct intervention of the most powerful red Dragon in existance on Azeroth.

Instead of constantly jumping around them being outdated show me where it stats that they are outdated a official source that stats they are outdated would be nice, ore numerous showings of the background ability powerset etc is outdated until then again Your Opinion is Below Blizzard.

Just like the War of the Ancient is written by real people? That isn't the way it works BT, A fictionel Character doesn't and I repeat doesn't hold the same weight of crediability as a Book (RPG) where there is no discussion on who is writting furthermore there is no speculation which is what Brann Bronzebeard is doing, he is speculating a Writer doesn't speculate a fictionel Character does.

Originally posted by Utrigita
And you are just as great a hypocrite BT because you doesn't agree with the exact same site on matters concerning the RPG's. But fine we go by that then The Lich King is one of the most powerful beings in the warcraft universe and he is going to be defeated by some of Azeroths mighiest Heroes a very short list, Thrall is a mighty Hero so Is Jaina so is Tyranda and so is Sylvanas the FAQ clearly stats that the mighiest Heroes can defeat him, those four there would stand no chance against Malygos.

That is not correct BT DarkC has already called you out on that one and proved you wrong, the Scrouge is at a Max 250.000 Undead the Burning Legion fills the entire horizon and that is just a fraction, and you think it's only the scrouge that can ressurrect the fallen? The Natherazim invented Necromancy.

I'm not the one claiming that the Lich King can bypass a number of magical errected magical barriers BT you are, The Burden of Proof is not placed on me, contrary to what you believe it's on you. But fine I will do so again 1. He has never done it 2. He require the persons to be undead to take control over them 3. The Nerubians was immune and highly intelligent 4. None of those beings he has mindcontrolled was protected with magical wardens 5. If he could easily have mindcontrolled the Humans then why didn't he began a uprising one kingdom against another it would most certainly make his army 1. Bigger 2. Weaken his foes. Yet he hasn't done it.

It's official then that the Mightiest Heroes is a match for the Lich King fair enough. A shame that such a Statement has not been given concerning Malygos instead Malygos actions require the direct intervention of the most powerful red Dragon in existance on Azeroth.

Instead of constantly jumping around them being outdated show me where it stats that they are outdated a official source that stats they are outdated would be nice, ore numerous showings of the background ability powerset etc is outdated until then again Your Opinion is Below Blizzard.

Just like the War of the Ancient is written by real people? That isn't the way it works BT, A fictionel Character doesn't and I repeat doesn't hold the same weight of crediability as a Book (RPG) where there is no discussion on who is writting furthermore there is no speculation which is what Brann Bronzebeard is doing, he is speculating a Writer doesn't speculate a fictionel Character does.

It also says they are the ONLY things that can defeat him, so technically the Pantheon, Elune, Aspects would not be able to "shrug" fine by me.

Can you show me this please, that they invented it, and no Dark C "tired" like most of his points to call me out on it, what he unfortatley discovered was that the 250k is not the undead scourge army, its just whats in Icecrown citadel alone with the LK, not the whole army. And I said the more powerful beings are not as numerous as their main foot soldiers. Also prove the Natherezim could do it as effectively as the scourge anyway, i mean hell the Nethrezim are not a dime a dozen, Tichonodrious was the most powerful of their kind was he not? their not as numerous as the scourge, the Nethrezim are not.

1. He has mind controlled thas enough until they who belive he cannot take over higher intellects can prove otherwise, thats a negative, which means ime not supposed to prove that, thats you to prove it.

2. THats never mentioned at all......as i said, the Ice trolls were not.

3. Yes so? they were immmune completly, they were diffrent to humans, humans or dragons have not been stated immune, if they have please show me. ( I know you cant for humans becayse obviously they are not)

4. THat doesnt mean he couldnt do it, as i said you need to prove he certainly cannot take them over and Malygos isnt necesserily going to be proceted from the beginning of the fight either, he will need to do a spell.

5. Perhaps its a range thing, perhaps Icecrown area or Northrend is the range of his mind powers of the mind, which is prob why he doesnt just consume and take over every beast, mosnter and animal in the world and go on a huge army of wild life attack.

Which could not do anything to LK, as it says "only" most powerful heroes can defeat LK or oppose him, so the Aspects, Elune, Pantheon, Legion are nothing, the quote says it.

But the thing is, you cant prove that thats the Blizzard current opinion, it could be old as i belive it is just like their lore pages, those lore pages are my official proof that Blizzard could have left it like that, furthermore, ive already given that proof. Their outdated by the fact they contain old lore, which means their info is outdated, even if not all of it is untrue.

You dont have the understanding ime trying to give you, Brann Bronzebeard IS the human writer, given the name Brann Bronzebeard to make sense of the new RPG books, taking your account of things, those new RP books are completly useless speculation then, players shouldnt read through the stats and new guides for the next part of the WoW RPG because thats all speculation written by a fictional character (how the hell can that be? hell since when did fictional characters write books for the real world?) and the later books are going to have the real info in, some fictionla character is somehow writing books for the real world, and for the RPG....utrigos its a newer RPG book, regardless of what fictional being they say its written by, Blizzard wrote everything in it, just like the old ones you use.

Don't be narrowminded The Pantheons etc are more mighty then the entire group of heroes on Azeroth combined.

You don't have the book but it's in the Demon Soul and The Sundering, but anyway

Recalling the Nathrezim's experiments with undead during the War of the Ancients

Would you please show me that source and link please. And the Doomguards is not as numerous as the Felguard and the Felguard rips through the Undeads canonfodder. They invented it, they have been practecing it for most likely more then 10.000 years they easily outclass any Necromancer. Yes he was, what does that have to do with anything? There are not nearly as many necromancers either.

1. No you maked the assumption that he could mindcontrol Malygos, you are now going to show that he can. Either show it ore drop it.

2. Then why hasn't he done it hmm?

3. Then why have the Lich King not simply mindcontrolled the entire bunch BT, and to show that the Dragons can fairly easy, Deathwing clouded his minds so that his fellow abstracts couldn't read his mind, Korialstrasz shielded his mind too, but Deathwing broke through it toke him quiet a amount of time though and that was mindcontrol because Deathwing didn't want Korialstrasz to tell about his corruption and it was barely he could even control that mindcontrol in Warcraft isn't as simple as it sounds BT.

4. No it's you that says he can ergo it's up to you to proof he can, I have already mentioned why he most likely cannot. And I have no idea on how long it takes for Malygos to raise a barrier around his mind, Can you say how fast the Lich King can mindcontrol a Dragon?

5. That is not correct he sent out his thought towards Kel'Thuzad. He can easily operate with minds far away from him, however it's again you that is going to provide the proof that he can mindcontrol a living dragon.

That's because those mentioned doesn't exactly falls under the catagory of heroes but Demi Gods, Gods etc.

It's YOUR opinion that they are outdated BT not Blizzard complain and whine if you like about it, but until that site it changed that remains Blizzards official take on what can be consideret Lore. End of story.

No Brann Bronzebeard is a fictionel Character

http://www.wowwiki.com/Brann_Bronzebeard

it's that simple, as shown above it's also mentioned that he has written those books, since he is a fictionel Character as proved here, the Writer cannot is talking through him but with the level of crediability a fictionel Character will always have else this discussion would pretty much have ended when the quotes from Korialstrasz began coming.

BT it's really simple the RPG are consideret canon that you disagree that's that but don't begin twisting the facts concerning the Lore around because it doesn't suit you.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And you can use that fact all you like, obviously it says the [b]ONLY thing that the Lich King can be defeated by is the greatest heroes, it doenst specifiy on who they are, but it by saying only in your source knocks out aspects, pantheon etc etc

What we do know he is from FAQ, books and other sources, among the most powerful the world has ever seen, infnite in necromancy power, all powerful, unfathomably powerful etc etc that alone is enough to put him up there in the leagues of the highers and "should" be enough to silence those who dislike him or do not wish to belive his power who make it seem he is on a level lesser than Aspects and such. [/B]

Kil'Jaedens unlimited, unimaginable magical power and omnipotence potentials would put him on pantheon level then if Lich King's "unfathomable" powers put him among the high guys.