Ultimate Cap vs 616 Spider-Man

Phantomzone, you're entitled to your opinion. But you assume a lot of things. I don't know how much faster Spidey can be, when Ult. Cap still boasts the agility to dodge bullets like most other famous street levellers can. Street level agility that has allowed Daredevil, Cap and Wolverine to do well against him. And Ult. Cap's still skilled enough with his shield to rebound his shield throws off of several different things and have it right where he wants it. He's not exactly useless with it. As for seeing slower... well, I don't have a scan of Ult. Cap seeing faster. You got me there. 😂

Metalmanx, I've seen you argue that Spiderman beats Namor. And unlike Phantomzone, you plainly disagree that even 616 Cap could take Spidey. So I know I'm never going to convince you that Ult. Cap would ever win. But Spiderman's durability is greater than Ult. Cap's? I think that remains to be proven. I've posted several scans here. Go ahead and try and top em, if you can.

K3vil, I have no idea what you're arguing. You've said Ult. Cap wins this fight, but go on to undermine several of his feats. Apparently, you either substitute a massive amount of skill or link PIS to Ult. Cap wrestling them off. I mean... he's able to wrestle free from them only because he's the main character? How about a simpler answer... he's stronger then them? And the class 3 you're referring to is absolutely ambiguous within the context of the story. Millar never quantifies it. And to be honest, it doesn't look like a lot of Chinese supersoldiers are pushing the Statue of Liberty down. Neither were very many carrying Airforce One. These are also the guys that pushed crashing aircarriers onto the Triskelion. They were pretty strong:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Vastly superior. As in, Ult. Cap has no chance of standing up to 616 Spidey's strength. You want to keep ignoring that Ult. Cap has fought foes that are as strong or stronger than 616 Spidey. Just because you can show 616 Spidey's strength is superior, which is something that I've pretty much conceded from the beginning, doesn't equate to you showing that Ult. Cap wouldn't be able to deal with it. I've never changed my line of inquiry. I said this waaaaaay back on page 3, "[b]Either way, I'm not out to conclusively prove Ult. Cap is just as strong or stronger than 616 Spidey. Fact is, the point of this conversation has always been to argue that 616 Spidey is not vastly superior in physical respects. I've made my case, you have your own opinions."

Ult. Cap 6/10. [/B]

And no were did I state he has no chance to standing up to 616 Spidey's strength. My point was that 616 Cap has close to U.Cap level durability and yet even Cap's durability is not greater then 616 Spiderman.

Plus Spiderman has taken hits from Rhino, to Juggernaut, to even the real Hulk as well.

And like I said before Juggs>>>>>>>>>>>U.Abom.

This is the first time you said to me Spidermans strength is Superior. All there other times I've heard you babble on that they rival one another in stats.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
BTW, he destroyed Cap's shield AFTER he took off the amulet that Dr. Strange used to seal his powers.

This is true so it makes it vague that ending portion. But even without the Odin Power he showed signs that his regular self was much more powerful then the norm by defeating Hulk, Thing and Dr.Strange. With just his own Thor power. And even his regular self Thor is vastly superior to U.Hulk.

So eh. Still a impressive feat for 616 Cap's credit.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Metalmanx, I've seen you argue that Spiderman beats Namor. And unlike Phantomzone, you plainly disagree that even 616 Cap could take Spidey. So I know I'm never going to convince you that Ult. Cap would ever win. But Spiderman's durability is greater than Ult. Cap's? I think that remains to be proven. I've posted several scans here. Go ahead and try and top em, if you can.

When did I argue that Spidey beats Namor? Was it recently? Did I argue that Spidey would beat him consistently? Because if that was so, I'll clarify that now I believe that Spidey CAN defeat Namor, but the majority would probably go to Namor if he doesn't hold back anything. Spidey can definitely get some wins. I don't really know why I'm defending this anyway, as Spidey really does have the ability to hold his own and possibly defeat Namor. Hell, he's done it before.

Anyway. You are correct. I do plainly disagree that 616 Cap could take Spidey. Just like I plainly disagree that Ult. Cap could take Spidey. Tell you the truth, I think Ult. Cap would be the bigger challenge to Spidey, too. Which is funny, since I believe that 616 Cap would take Ult. Cap. But me being unable to be convinced? That's just poppycock. I've been persuaded numerous times through people's debates about a decision concerning a fight. In this case, however, I see no reason to change my mind.

But okay. You want durability evidence. I am happy to oblige.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/70/feat9durability1ai0.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6907/feat9durability2zg8.jpg
Spider-Man survives having a building fall on top of him.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1672/feat14durabilitywo3.jpg

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/820/feat35durabilitydt6.jpg

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3782/feat43durability1la2.jpg
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/5604/feat43durability2kh9.jpg
Spidey is buried under a building by Nova, but he survives it without damage.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7255/feat44durability1jr4.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9377/feat44durability2sb7.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/647/feat44durability3ps6.jpg
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2201/feat44durability4oa7.jpg
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/1986/feat44durability5co6.jpg
Survives a bad beating from Carnage.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5897/feat8durabilityar1.jpg
[Survives getting hit by a car that was thrown by Lizard.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3200/feat58durability1qu2.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4665/feat58durability2vd2.jpg
Venom drops half a building on Spidey, who survives.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7402/feat8durabilityef5.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7910/feat9durability1zd5.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4762/feat9durability2yn9.jpg
Great falls off of and into burning buildings. Emerging just fine.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2290/feat9durability1ys6.jpg
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/43/feat9durability2zn3.jpg
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/1144/feat9durability3so0.jpg
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3887/feat9durability4ha3.jpg
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3671/feat9durability5er7.jpg
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1599/feat9durability6xc9.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7529/feat9durability7as5.jpg
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/5549/feat9durability8ja7.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6194/feat9durability9gj3.jpg
Survives the damage of being carried to the sky by a high-speed missile, incredible cold of upper atmosphere, difficulty of breathing, the explosion of said missile from close range and getting infected by the deadly toxins it carries (his durability enabled him to survive the toxins for minutes until cure would be given).

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5324/feat17durability1tz8.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7742/feat17durability2kf1.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8391/feat17durability3bg6.jpg
Rhino first smashes Spider-Man through a pillar, then smashes his head on the pavement for couple of dozen times, throws him through a window and THEN hits him with a streetlamp so hard that he is sent flying THROUGH A BUILDING, and Spider-Man is STILL conscious.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/1777/feat23durabilityou6.jpg
Graviton drops a building on Spidey. He survives.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/8583/feat24durability1de3.jpg
Spider-Man is slammed into an object in (literally) bullet speed, and survives it.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8489/feat53durability1ij9.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9682/feat53durability2nf5.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5266/feat53durability3md9.jpg
Ock collapses a building on Spider-Man. He is barely phased.

Most, if not all, of these would put Ult. Cap down. And if not for good, then for a lot longer than Spidey was.

Originally posted by Metalmanx

Anyway. You are correct. I do plainly disagree that 616 Cap could take Spidey. Just like I plainly disagree that Ult. Cap could take Spidey. Tell you the truth, I think Ult. Cap would be the bigger challenge to Spidey, too. Which is funny, since I believe that 616 Cap would take Ult. Cap.

it's not funny, it's inconsistent.

Originally posted by Metalmanx

Most, if not all, of these would put Ult. Cap down. And if not for good, then for a lot longer than Spidey was.

Wow how did you work that out?

Originally posted by Starscream M
it's not funny, it's inconsistent.

Why's that?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Why's that?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What issues did this happen in?

Originally posted by Starscream M
cuz you think 616 cap > than ult cap, yet you think the threat posed by ult cap > 616 cap

mmm

Originally posted by K3VIL
The Liberators arc, when Russia and Asian Nations makes their own team of superhumans each one rivaling a member of the Ultimates.

Er ok. What volume what issues?

Originally posted by K3VIL

Also, speaking about the Ult. Cap VS Kleiser fight, he was vomiting over the battlefield for the effort of the battle.And also it's been stated Ult. Cap needs to go under periodic treatment of the supersoldier serum to keep his powers.

Don't remember him vomiting.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wow how did you work that out?

Err...because most of these attacks are greater than Ult. Cap has faced or seems capable of receiving without being laid out. I think the most damage I've ever seen Ult. Cap take was probably from Ult. Hank Pym when he first transformed and smashed Cap into the jeep.

http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ultimates03101qi.jpg

And I've read all the other Ultimates stuff, and nothing really seems to be a close to this. Spidey takes poundings like this all the time though, what with buildings falling on him every few days, people just as strong as (if not stronger than) Giant Man smashing him every which way, cars/trucks being thrown at him...

...And then he just gets up, belts out a witty retort, and jumps back into the fray like nothing happened.

Originally posted by Starscream M
cuz you think 616 cap > than ult cap, yet you think the threat posed by ult cap > 616 cap

Yea. I stick by that, too. I think 616 Cap has the necessary ability to take out Ult. Cap. Yet, because of Ult. Cap's superhuman strength and durability (that has shown to be superior to 616 Cap), I think that makes him more of a threat to Spider-Man.

Originally posted by K3VIL
The Liberators arc, when Russia and Asian Nations makes their own team of superhumans each one rivaling a member of the Ultimates.
Also, speaking about the Ult. Cap VS Kleiser fight, he was vomiting over the battlefield for the effort of the battle.And also it's been stated Ult. Cap needs to go under periodic treatment of the supersoldier serum to keep his powers.

He wasn't vomiting and he doesn't need to undergo treatment, his body produces the serum now.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
When did I argue that Spidey beats Namor? Was it recently? Did I argue that Spidey would beat him consistently? Because if that was so, I'll clarify that now I believe that Spidey CAN defeat Namor, but the majority would probably go to Namor if he doesn't hold back anything. Spidey can definitely get some wins. I don't really know why I'm defending this anyway, as Spidey really does have the ability to hold his own and possibly defeat Namor. Hell, he's done it before.

Anyway. You are correct. I do plainly disagree that 616 Cap could take Spidey. Just like I plainly disagree that Ult. Cap could take Spidey. Tell you the truth, I think Ult. Cap would be the bigger challenge to Spidey, too. Which is funny, since I believe that 616 Cap would take Ult. Cap. But me being unable to be convinced? That's just poppycock. I've been persuaded numerous times through people's debates about a decision concerning a fight. In this case, however, I see no reason to change my mind.

But okay. You want durability evidence. I am happy to oblige.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/70/feat9durability1ai0.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6907/feat9durability2zg8.jpg
Spider-Man survives having a building fall on top of him.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1672/feat14durabilitywo3.jpg

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/820/feat35durabilitydt6.jpg

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3782/feat43durability1la2.jpg
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/5604/feat43durability2kh9.jpg
Spidey is buried under a building by Nova, but he survives it without damage.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7255/feat44durability1jr4.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9377/feat44durability2sb7.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/647/feat44durability3ps6.jpg
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2201/feat44durability4oa7.jpg
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/1986/feat44durability5co6.jpg
Survives a bad beating from Carnage.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5897/feat8durabilityar1.jpg
[Survives getting hit by a car that was thrown by Lizard.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3200/feat58durability1qu2.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4665/feat58durability2vd2.jpg
Venom drops half a building on Spidey, who survives.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7402/feat8durabilityef5.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7910/feat9durability1zd5.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4762/feat9durability2yn9.jpg
Great falls off of and into burning buildings. Emerging just fine.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2290/feat9durability1ys6.jpg
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/43/feat9durability2zn3.jpg
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/1144/feat9durability3so0.jpg
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3887/feat9durability4ha3.jpg
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3671/feat9durability5er7.jpg
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1599/feat9durability6xc9.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7529/feat9durability7as5.jpg
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/5549/feat9durability8ja7.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6194/feat9durability9gj3.jpg
Survives the damage of being carried to the sky by a high-speed missile, incredible cold of upper atmosphere, difficulty of breathing, the explosion of said missile from close range and getting infected by the deadly toxins it carries (his durability enabled him to survive the toxins for minutes until cure would be given).

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5324/feat17durability1tz8.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7742/feat17durability2kf1.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8391/feat17durability3bg6.jpg
Rhino first smashes Spider-Man through a pillar, then smashes his head on the pavement for couple of dozen times, throws him through a window and THEN hits him with a streetlamp so hard that he is sent flying THROUGH A BUILDING, and Spider-Man is STILL conscious.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/1777/feat23durabilityou6.jpg
Graviton drops a building on Spidey. He survives.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/8583/feat24durability1de3.jpg
Spider-Man is slammed into an object in (literally) bullet speed, and survives it.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8489/feat53durability1ij9.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9682/feat53durability2nf5.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5266/feat53durability3md9.jpg
Ock collapses a building on Spider-Man. He is barely phased.

Most, if not all, of these would put Ult. Cap down. And if not for good, then for a lot longer than Spidey was.

Spider-man also has some terrbily Low end feats which contradict his high end feats. Ult. Cap has none, he's only ever been taken out by class 90-100 characters. Spidey has also been taken out by class 100's and bery low class villians.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Err...because most of these attacks are greater than Ult. Cap has faced or seems capable of receiving without being laid out. I think the most damage I've ever seen Ult. Cap take was probably from Ult. Hank Pym when he first transformed and smashed Cap into the jeep.

http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ultimates03101qi.jpg

And I've read all the other Ultimates stuff, and nothing really seems to be a close to this. Spidey takes poundings like this all the time though, what with buildings falling on him every few days, people just as strong as (if not stronger than) Giant Man smashing him every which way, cars/trucks being thrown at him...

...And then he just gets up, belts out a witty retort, and jumps back into the fray like nothing happened.

Well the problem is The Punisher has had a building collapse on him and hes survived unscathed so thats negates alot of your scans.

What im really confused about is that I thought Ult Cap got beaten up by Ult Hulk, how does that all of a sudden become less impressive than feats given?

Originally posted by darth fury
Spider-man also has some terrbily Low end feats which contradict his high end feats. Ult. Cap has none, he's only ever been taken out by class 90-100 characters. Spidey has also been taken out by class 100's and bery low class villians.

Yes he does punches by the Owl were able to hurt Ult Cap. In my opinion both Ult Cap and 616 Spiderman seem to be just as durable, maybe Ult Cap is more.

Metalmanx, Spidey was pretty much subdued or knocked out in nearly every single one of your scans. I don't see Spidey getting up like nothing's happened immediately after the building's fallen on him. So I find it a bit disingenuous that you consider these to be proof over Ult. Cap's durability. You have anything other than Spidey surviving a building's collapse? Like taking a double-fist piledriver from a class 100+ and getting up to fight? I mean... even in the rocket scan, Spidey had to be saved by Ironman before falling. Whereas, Ult. Cap not only managed to disarm his rocket and not be affected by the speed or atmosphere but his body survived the long fall down into the Artic ocean.

And the Giantman slam is probably the least amount of punishment Ult. Cap's taken. Trust me. Being subdued after you've just been thawed out of a 57 yr long suspended animation and being tranked isn't something to dismiss either. His tetrodotoxin feat, Herr Kleiser fight, 600 ft drop feat and Ult. Abom feat easily outclass the Giantman slam.

I am not convinced that Spidey's durability is better than Ult. Cap's at all. But I'm willing to change my opinion if I see more.

To be quite frank im complete and utterly baffled as to why those scans are considered to be proof of Spiderman > Ult Cap in durability.

These are pretty impressive durability showings for Spiderman.

First I must admit I am more impressed with U.Cap's durability. Much more so then his 616 Cap level strength feats. Despite me believing he is a bit stronger they just did a poor job of showing it.

But Spiderman has taken shots from heavy hitters as well. Like in this fight with Silver Surfer, he takes a nasty blast in the end and still is conscious as he's thinking.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9698/feat33fight1ig1.jpg
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1096/feat33fight2la5.jpg
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3338/feat33fight3xb7.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4778/feat33fight4mn2.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/1241/feat33fight5ks3.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8274/feat33fight6vv0.jpg
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7291/feat33fight8if4.jpg

And here we see him take Hulk hits granted the single shots here and there but considering Hulk is true class 100 and the consensus is he's much greater then U.Hulk. I still view it more impressive.

Getting bear hugged by Hulk only for Hulk to give up and throw Spiderman away.
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/5656/feat17fight2vj4.jpg
Has taken shots from Hulk too.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6586/feat6fight6xh6.jpg
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7140/feat6fight7jr2.jpg
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6203/feat37fight4jo1.jpg
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6969/feat13fight5hi1.jpg

Taking nasty hits from Juggernaut and reaming conscious.
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/8918/feat10fight25sk2.jpg

Also something else that I noticed from the Abom hit feat.

Is that U.Cap didn't get up right away in that book. In fact some pages pass and the book actually ends with U.Cap still down.

Its not till the next book that we finally see U.Cap start getting up. Meaning he was out.

Still a very impressive feat for U.Cap though.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I was mimicking your bias with the Daredevil comment. It still stands that a normal human's strength was sufficient to knock out Spiderman. But I'm sure you'll try to explain it as if Spiderman's strength and durability was sucked away by his mind being out of whack.

Actually your mental state can affect your strength/speed. This has been said by many athletes.

Plus these hits are coming from a master in exotic pressure points to the point that DD can paralyze limbs, cause burning pains, to even stop speech with pressure-points. Thats how skilled Daredevil is.

Spiderman's strength is not vastly superior to Ult. Cap's. What's wrong with a statement like that? 10-15 vs 20-25? I've never once stated that Ult. Cap was stronger than 616 Spidey. He is superior in strength from what we've seen. And you've shown scans that show he is superior. But vastly superior? As in... Ult. Cap would never stand a chance against 616 Spidey's strength? No. You've never proved it. And from the very beginning, that's what I've been asking for. Reread every single one of my posts if you have to. We've gone over ad nauseam about how Ult. Cap has fought foes stronger than 616 Spidey. 616 Spidey's level of strength is not going to overwhelm Ult. Cap. Heck, it doesn't even overwhelm weaker foes.

The weaker one's 616 Spidey tends to hold back and there skill like Shang or Cap is better then U.Cap IMO.

Rolling with the blow means that you move your head or body along with the momentum of whatever is hitting you. That presupposes you can move your head or body in the direction the blow's force is taking you. Iron Man punches Cap in the face in 'Civil War.' There's obviously space where his head can move. In the Ult. Abom double-fist piledriver, there's nowhere for Ult. Cap's body to go. He gets pummeled straight into the ground. What don't you get?

Accept he wasn't into the ground as he even shows him going back with it. Maybe if Abom fists had pasted down upon him and flattened him you would have a case. But that is not shown in the scans just like U.Juggs is not shown one shotted.