Originally posted by Phantom ZoneSpiderman caught one bullet. The other went through his hand, into his shoulder, and he passed out. You don't have to be impressed with Ult. Cap's agility. Just know that he's fast enough to dodge hails of bullets without getting hit. That standard agility allows him the reasonable chance of not getting zomg-overwhelmed by 616 Spidey's agility. Lots of street level bullet dodgers have given Spidey problems without having to have equal or superior agility and you know it.
All you're doing is throwing up scans and not really giving them any thought. I don't see scans of Ult Cap backflipping through bullets, running faster than bullets or even catching bullets. Hell 616 Spiderman caught TWO bullets and im supposed to be impressed by somebody who could dodge bullets.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneThat's a spectacularly narrow use of ABC logic. I don't think it's as clear cut as you imagine. 616 Spidey is capable of knocking out Ult. Cap, but it won't be nearly as easy as you daydream it would be. Ult. Cap's been knocked unconscious only ONCE in a fight. For illustrative purposes, you can look at the scan montage below and note that with every single hit/beating, Ult. Cap was NOT knocked unconscious in ANY of these examples, by ANY of these foes. Not by Ult. Abom, not by Ult. Hulk, not by Ult. Giantman, not by Herr Klesier swinging a piece of concrete, not by Ult. Thor, and neither by SHIELD supersoldiers smashing his head into a tombstone while he was poisoned 1,000,000X more than the lethal dose.
In other words if Owl can hurt Ult Cap with his punches 616 Spiderman is knocking him out.
Because Ult. Hawk-Owl can tag him, 616 Spidey can easily knock him unconscious? Please!!!!! In these fights against enemies, MANY of whom are clearly stronger than 616 Spidey, Ult. Cap was never knocked out. I could go on to post DOZENS of scans of 616 Spidey getting knocked unconscious by foes clearly weaker than Ult. Cap, but they should be common knowledge by now. Just so that it's clearly illustrated to you, nobody on 616 Spidey's strength level has knocked out Ult. Cap, not even foes greatly stronger. Your weak, narrow use of ABC logic fails in the face of a wealth of on-panel evidence:
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneI've proven several things over the course of this thread to you. He's stronger, more durable and more skillful then you originally thought. Yet, you're not willing to give Ult. Cap any credit despite the change in your original positions. No, ok I'll give Spidey 6/10 rather then 7/10. Nothing. The recalcitrant attitude among those who underrate Ult. Cap is fine. I personally, have no idea what the anti-Ult. Cap sentiment is based on. But it doesn't much matter. I may not convince you that Ult. Cap can win this fight, and that's ok. But I think I've done my part to strongly argue and support through scans that 616 Spidey is not vastly superior to Ult. Cap on ANY physical level. And that this fight would not be a curbstomp at all.
Great hes more skillful than I thought. Hes still nowhere near as skillful as Cap.Er no Wolverine has been webbed up lots of times by Spiderman and since you haven't even proven that hes as fast as 616 Cap im going to assume hes gonna get webbed up. Since Ult Cap doesn't have adamantuim claws im gonna assume hes gonna get webbed up.
Talkin to me? I couldn't careless wether he one shot him or not.
Yeah and you've proven nothing. All you have proven is that Ult Cap is a bit more handy with his shield than I thought he was. You might have read more issues but your not doing a very good job at proving your case.
And I was referring to Daredevil1 in my italicized p.s. comment. Wasn't directed towards you.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Spiderman caught one bullet. The other went through his hand, into his shoulder, and he passed out.
No I think he caught two bullets the third bullet hit him.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You don't have to be impressed with Ult. Cap's agility. Just know that he's fast enough to dodge hails of bullets without getting hit. That standard agility allows him the reasonable chance of not getting zomg-overwhelmed by 616 Spidey's agility.
Well no not at all. 616 Spiderman was having a hard enough time trying to hit Spiderman before he analysed his style. Common sense indicates a slower less skillful ULT Cap is gonna have a hell of a time.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Lots of street level bullet dodgers have given Spidey problems without having to have equal or superior agility and you know it.
Er.....
1. Those street levelers were highly skillful. Ult Cap is not.
2. Those street levelers were near to him in reflexes and agility. Ult Cap is not
3. Most of the street levelers that gave Spiderman trouble fought a non-upgraded Spiderman. 616 Cap was owning Spiderman but that was AFTER he analysed Spiderman style.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That's a spectacularly narrow use of ABC logic. I don't think it's as clear cut as you imagine. 616 Spidey is capable of knocking out Ult. Cap, but it won't be nearly as easy as you daydream it would be. Ult. Cap's been knocked unconscious only ONCE in a fight. For illustrative purposes, you can look at the scan montage below and note that with every single hit/beating, Ult. Cap was NOT knocked unconscious in ANY of these examples, by ANY of these foes. Not by Ult. Abom, not by Ult. Hulk, not by Ult. Giantman, not by Herr Klesier swinging a piece of concrete, not by Ult. Thor, and neither by SHIELD supersoldiers smashing his head into a tombstone while he was poisoned 1,000,000X more than the lethal dose.
Oh ok so what you're telling me is that Night-Owl can't KO Ult Cap because hes only been KOed once?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because Ult. Hawk-Owl can tag him, 616 Spidey can easily knock him unconscious? Please!!!!! In these fights against enemies, MANY of whom are clearly stronger than 616 Spidey, Ult. Cap was never knocked out. I could go on to post DOZENS of scans of 616 Spidey getting knocked unconscious by foes clearly weaker than Ult. Cap, but they should be common knowledge by now. Just so that it's clearly illustrated to you, nobody on 616 Spidey's strength level has knocked out Ult. Cap, not even foes greatly stronger. Your weak, narrow use of ABC logic fails in the face of a wealth of on-panel evidence:
Nah man not even the point I was trying to make and ive already bloody stated that it would take alot of effort for 616 Spiderman to KO him. My point was that if you look at the fight between Night-Owl and Ult Cap he had the capability to KO Ult Cap but the fight didn't go one for long enough.
So Ult Cap didn't get KOed by HK, but obvoulsy if you used some common sense you know he would have instead of missing the point.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I've proven several things over the course of this thread to you. He's stronger, more durable and more skillful then you originally thought. Yet, you're not willing to give Ult. Cap any credit despite the change in your original positions. No, ok I'll give Spidey 6/10 rather then 7/10. Nothing. The recalcitrant attitude among those who underrate Ult. Cap is fine. I personally, have no idea what the anti-Ult. Cap sentiment is based on. But it doesn't much matter. I may not convince you that Ult. Cap can win this fight, and that's ok. But I think I've done my part to strongly argue and support through scans that 616 Spidey is not vastly superior to Ult. Cap on ANY physical level. And that this fight would not be a curbstomp at all.And I was referring to Daredevil1 in my italicized p.s. comment. Wasn't directed towards you.
No sorry all you've proven is that he is more skillful than I thought he was and he still loses because hes not skillful enough.
Also again I notice in all that supposed evidence of yours. But yet no where did you show U.jugg is out with actual evidence. As I see you completely ignore the room is filled with deadly gas, as even your impressive U.Cap is using a gas mask as to not be affected by it.
Me bringing up the power gem is relevant because you mentioned U.Juggs stalemated U.Collosus as a testament to U.Cap "one shotting him" and yet when he stalemated U.Collosus he had the power gem IIRC.
Anyhow yeah Cap went up to U.Hulk and talked as he began to try to inject him.
U.Hulk immediately responded as he knew what he was doing and even told him to get that thing away from him IIRC. Showing U.Hulk knew exactly what was going on and even broke the needle.
And then proceeded to treat U.Cap irrelevant outside of just keeping U.Hulk off balance. Which I disproved you U.Cap can go toe to toe with him to begin with.
Second someone can be lying down hurt with there eyes shut just to recover a bit. But it doesn't mean he was out and even if he was considering the circumstances of him being hurt from U.Ironman as he was puking his guts out and was even rammed by him before to even sent out of a building. To Wasp calming him to set up a tank drop.
Eh I could care less if it was a flash KO. Considering all that happened. Bottom line is you added another double standard by accepting U.Hulk is out and U.Cap is conscious considering the time frame that you say could have happened before or after or during. As I see you have no proof for this whatsoever. Not even a statement at that because with books unless it states this, we use the simple method it occurs next since its the prior next page. Since it was you who stated the simplest answer is the best explanation.
Again quit assuming, quit theorizing, and your conclusions of a one shot occurring are not even close to being proven. You'll be closer to proving aliens exist in the real world then ever showing U.Juggs was one shotted by U.Cap.
The fact that you said it wouldn't be a stretch to consider U.Cap faster then 616 Cap shows you just assume without proof to begin with.
When U.Cap does feat like these get back to me.
Cap with metal glove blocks random energy beams, definitely fast hand speed.
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers17004yb3.jpg
Cap dodges beams unders zero gravity.
http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv123516rougherpv4.jpg
http://img421.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv123518rougherbg7.jpg
Cap blocks mulitple beams in different areas.
http://img458.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv300506mm5.jpg
Again blocks mulitiple beams in different areas.
http://img475.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv300807tk8.jpg
Cap trapped in a floor designed to spin with beams coming from all direction.
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/6793/avengersv103217or6.jpg
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/4910/avengersv103218yi9.jpg
Cap in volume 3 dodging beams again.
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav303913jt7.jpg
Cap moving in bullet time via Matrix.
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9535/avgrs6916fv7.jpg
Cap getting in front of bullets as they are in mid air.
http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/451/avengersv300505ng4.jpg
Originally posted by darth fury
He wasn't vomiting and he doesn't need to undergo treatment, his body produces the serum now.
Originally posted by K3VIL
When a soldier called him to speak to U.S. Army troops cause their faith was flinching after the infiltration of Chitauri aliens among the troops he told him he was coming, but before he vomited out.And when Kleiser told him the "roids" they gave him years ago were running out to taunt him Cap got really pissed off.
Since when his body produces the serum?And even if it does now, he's still not on par with Spidey.When Cap entered in Thor's club in Manhattana, what do you think would have happened in a fight?Thor would have used him like a rag.That's it.Abomination knew the Colonel had a personal grudge to Rogers so he wouldn't kill him knowing his commander wanted to have revenge.
The Ult. Red Guardian wasn't bulletproof.They didn't shoot him once.Fury was about to, Cap stopped him.Red Guardian top chain in the Tunguska installation?Hell No.Many other beings in there were more powerful than him.He was just left in "charge".That's why he wasn't killed by the others.
Could have sworn they shot at the Russian SS with machine guns.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Could have sworn they shot at the Russian SS with machine guns.
You know I just checked the issue and I thought they shot him as well.
But after checking it looks like they didn't since he had no marks on him.
And it would be weird anyways since U.Cap put a regular stick in him IIRC.
http://img428.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledscanned132ft.jpg
Hm. Kinda hard to tell. Guess it could've been a stick.
Either way, doesn't change anything.
Anyways I've had a theory on Cap getting weaker.
U.Cap actually had steroid treatment among maybe other hormones along withthe SSS.
Maybe since he's just relying on the SSS he is more weaker.
In a annual he even admitted moving these big rocks is to much of a task for him as others are more capable and then the next page it shows the characters he's talking about. Don't get me wrong one of the rocks is "impressive" but he struggled with this other one but it doesn't support being in the 20 ton range thats for sure.
Which would also explain him working out with 500 lbs weights as well.
IIRC even Mark Millar did indeed state U.Cap is getting weaker.
He probably needs to start using the roids again. 😂 😆
Daredevil1, two questions to put your Ult. Juggernaut arguments to rest: 1) How was Ult. Juggernaut captured off-panel then, if Ult. Cap did not knock him out? 2) How strong do you have to be to send Ult. Juggernaut flying horizontally through a wall anyway?
Answer them directly. When you do, you'll realize you have to make the inane assumption that regular SHIELD agents managed to subdue Ult. Juggernaut. And even if you won't back away from that ridiculous assertion, you still fail to accept the impressive nature of Ult. Cap kicking him and sending him flying horizontally anyway. That willful ignorance undermines your arguments.
Also, Ult. Hulk knew what was going on because he made the antidote and the adamantium needle and purposefully left it for the Ultimates to use. Did you read that part of the story? If he woke up and saw that, he'd know instantly what was going on. More importantly, even by your logic that he was somehow awake the entire time, why would he let Ult. Cap have a whole conversation and get within inches of injecting him?
I have not used a double standard between the Ult. Hulk fight and the Ult. Abom fight. There is one single standard, and that is how dialogue illustrates what happened in both scenes. 1) Ult. Cap was talking to SHIELD, stood over Ult. Hulk and got within inches of injecting him. That dialogue is evidence Ult. Hulk was briefly knocked out. Had he been awake the whole time, he would not let Ult. Cap stand over him and get within inches of injecting him. He understood the threat of the needle immediately upon waking because he designed the damn thing and left it for the Ultimates. 2) Abdul was talking to Ult. Cap and telling him to get up. He also addresses him as "Sir" and explains he's been waiting half his life for this BEFORE the end of that issue. Had he been unconscious, he wouldn't be requesting him to get up or addressing him directly.
As you can see, I asserted no double standard. The dialogue in both scenes informs my interpretation and they should do the same for you. To assume Ult. Hulk was awake in the former requires the inane assumption that Ult. Hulk let him get within inches of injecting him. To assume Ult. Cap was unconscious in the latter requires the inane assumption that Abdul was talking to himself, when he requested he get up and addressed him as "Sir." Tying this back to Ult. Juggernaut, to assume Ult. Juggernaut was conscious requires the inane assumption that SHIELD agents subdued him off-panel. Your arguments are attenuated to the Nth degree. Instead of accepting what's depicted on-panel, you go to insane lengths to assume ridiculous concepts, solely in an attempt to undermine Ult. Cap's feats. Your bias is clear in your subsequent derisions of the character. Which is fine, especially when your arguments have holes the size of Texas in them and utilize triple-standards.
K3vil, Ult. Cap threw up after the battle against the Chitarui was won. The soldier wanted Ult. Cap to give a speech to capitalize on the high of victory. He didn't throw up during the fight at all. You need to read the issue again. The way it appeared to me, was that the enormity of what he just accomplished in leading the resistance against an alien invasion and the beating he took was catching up to him.
Ult. Thor would also use 616 Spiderman as a rag. So what's the point of theorizing what would have happened if Rogers would have picked a fight in the bar? he essentially did use him as a rag in the subsequent fight. The above scan just shows Ult. Thor hitting him as support for his durability. I never suggested Ult. Cap would beat Ult. Thor. Are you suggesting Spiderman would beat Ult. Thor?
And the way they described Ult. Red Guardian in 'Ultimate Nightmare,' was the one guy who was tough enough to get just enough food to keep it together. Being in charge of an abandoned installation like that, would only serve as mere title. Those things were monstrosities, cannibalizing each other, with no semblance of order for decades. Ellis' written dialogue pretty much described the Tunguska installation as an environment where only the fittest survive. I'll try to get scans up about that and about the shooting. Although, I also remember, the art / sound effects were anachronistic in regards to the shooting. So people can make their own judgment. Finally, the stabbing instrument was a bone shard from Ult. Red Guardians shield. If you remember, it was lined with bone spikes before Ult. Cap tore it off. And if you look at the scan, the bone shard is right next to the torn off faces that decorated the shield when Ult. Cap picks it up. What mutation he took the bone from is unclear and so is the density. But either way, you can stab something that's "bulletproof" with something less dense. It just requires sharpness and strength of force. If that doesn't sound right to you, think about boneclaw Wolverine shredding steel doors.
Originally posted by Daredevil1Where does it state that Ult. Cap is getting weaker? Herr Kleiser taunted him that he used to be faster. So what? Despite no on-panel depiction of him requiring continuing maintenance of the SSS, you're going to inject some wild theory that Ult. Cap is slowly getting weaker? First, what the hell does that have to do with this debate? I never showed feats from World War II that suggest some level of strength he doesn't have anymore. Second, where did you get this "Millar statement" from anyway? Proof, please? Considering you actually stated 616 Cap one-shotted Korvac and Hulk, I have every reason to doubt your truthfulness.
Anyways I've had a theory on Cap getting weaker.U.Cap actually had steroid treatment among maybe other hormones along withthe SSS.
Maybe since he's just relying on the SSS he is more weaker.
In a annual he even admitted moving these big rocks is to much of a task for him as others are more capable and then the next page it shows the characters he's talking about. Don't get me wrong one of the rocks is "impressive" but he struggled with this other one but it doesn't support being in the 20 ton range thats for sure.
Which would also explain him working out with 500 lbs weights as well.
IIRC even Mark Millar did indeed state U.Cap is getting weaker.
He probably needs to start using the roids again. 😂 😆
And stop misquoting or mischaracterizing on-panel events. Rogers never admitted that moving those rocks was too much for him. When he comments that there are "people better suited to the heavy lifting," he's referring to the god damn Statue of Liberty itself. You see the damn thing being pulled out of the harbor accompanying his sentence. He never once admits the rocks he's lifting are too much for him. Stop trying to mislead people. I have most of the comics in front of me and a scanner. I will scan them and prove you wrong publically. If you're not that devious and are just reading the damn things with bias filling your mind, knock it off. It completely undermines your arguments. If you're not even doing that and it was an innocent mistake, then learn how to read comics. There have been too many "innocent mistakes" throughout this thread to take you seriously:
