This one
Originally posted by Gideon
Jedi Twilight is turning out to be an excellent book, and I thought I would share a revelation that is somewhat relevant to this thread from Nick Rostu (the Force sensitive who was witness to the final battle between Mace Windu and Kar Vastor):"There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.
The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor."
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Vader > Kar Vastor > Mace Windu -thus- Vader > Mace Windu
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
As far as sith (known sith) go I would still rank Sids,Bane,Caedus,Kun and Nihilus(stupid drain) ahead of him for sure. Personally I say that Vader is right below Revan but not by much but above Malak and Dooku.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
As far as sith (known sith) go I would still rank Sids,Bane,Caedus,Kun and Nihilus(stupid drain) ahead of him for sure. Personally I say that Vader is right below Revan but not by much but above Malak and Dooku.
Hmm... that's not such a bad list. Both Sidious and Caedus are confirmed to be Vader's superiors- meanwhile, the others will most likely defeat him. Certainly Kun and Bane- with the others, it's considerably more complex.
Sidious, having mastered a technique to hide one's presence in the force had possibly taught it to Vader (Dooku, as confirmed in Labyrinth of Evil, knew it, but whether Sidious instructed him in its usage remains open to speculation)- if so, I'm certain Vader would smash Nihilus in a lightsaber duel, therefore allowing him a possible win.
Next we have Malak and Dooku. Vader is certainly above Malak- but above Dooku? That's more open to speculation. Dooku is considerably more mobile and better practiced than Vader- Vader, in his previous fight with Dooku, was able to win virtue of his raw power, physical strength, and 'force wrecking ball' abilities- out of the above mentioned abilities, Vader only possesses his physical strength. And there is a possibility that Dooku would simply outmaneuver him too quickly from him to employ his full strength against him. In force mastery, while Vader possesses considerably more dark side knowledge, Dooku, at the same time, possesses far more experience than Vader (having lived about... twice the lifetime of RotJ Vader)- and, in addition, also has force lightning, an attack that Vader is highly vulenrable to. A fight between Dooku and Vader is very close indeed.
Originally posted by Elite HunterI think revan is ahead of bane and caedus when it comes to mastery and skills but those you mentioned are not THAT far ahead from vader imo. But if vader were to face any those superiors and rivals you had mentioned, i doubt that any of them would take vader down easily or comfortably because i think its fair to conclude that vader would go down after a long or a hard fight considering his strength and proficiency in the force added with his will power.
As far as sith (known sith) go I would still rank Sids,Bane,Caedus,Kun and Nihilus(stupid drain) ahead of him for sure. Personally I say that Vader is right below Revan but not by much but above Malak and Dooku.
The ONLY one in that list that i see him beating vader rather comfortably is sidious seeing that he knows most of vaders weaknesses and there was a point when he was able to shut down vaders entire life support system to intimidate vader(i can't remember where this was from but kamikz brought this up).
Even the quote stating that caedus surpassed vader alone indicates that vader is an extremely powerful sith lord.
Originally posted by Master CrimzonThats quite a good point but let me address the force fight issue, dooku has more experience but then so what? Sidious only had like decades whereas yoda had hundreds of years of experience yet couldn't defeat sidious.
Next we have Malak and Dooku. Vader is certainly above Malak- but above Dooku? That's more open to speculation. Dooku is considerably more mobile and better practiced than Vader- Vader, in his previous fight with Dooku, was able to win virtue of his raw power, physical strength, and 'force wrecking ball' abilities- out of the above mentioned abilities, Vader only possesses his physical strength. And there is a possibility that Dooku would simply outmaneuver him too quickly from him to employ his full strength against him. In force mastery, while Vader possesses considerably more dark side knowledge, Dooku, at the same time, possesses far more experience than Vader (having lived about... twice the lifetime of RotJ Vader)- and, in addition, also has force lightning, an attack that Vader is highly vulenrable to. A fight between Dooku and Vader is very close indeed.
As for the force lightning thing its not like vader can't deflect it or protect himself with a lightsaber coupled with vader having greater dark side knowledge and a much higher level of raw power.
Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
In a fight he would probably beat Nihilus, due to the uncontrolable nature of the "drain". Vader is probably closest to Kun and Revan.
It all depends Nihilus seems to be force first lightsaber second if not at all type of character. Vader tools Nihilus with the saber but if they try a force duel he stands a good chance of losing.(god dam i hate nihilus)
Dooku vs Vader would be close but I think the experience Vader has that his ROTS self does not have would help because he wouldn't try something stupid like he did in AOTC vs Dooku or vs Obiwan. Vader can block lightning with his saber or possibly with a force shield(not exactly sure on the latter) but vader is skilled with force crush.
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I think revan is ahead of bane and caedus when it comes to mastery and skills but those you mentioned are not THAT far ahead from vader imo.
Personally I want to see Revan use more offensive force powers but his mastery (darkside/sith knowledge only in Caedus's case) might not be that much higher than them by a large degree though they both beat him in saber combat.
None of them are way above Vader but I still think they would all win the majority of the duels vs Vader well Nihilus depends on what type of duel they start with.
The ONLY one in that list that i see him beating vader rather comfortably is sidious seeing that he knows most of vaders weaknesses and there was a point when he was able to shut down vaders entire life support system to intimidate vader(i can't remember where this was from but kamikz brought this up).
I would tend to agree with you for the most part, though the other part is interesting and do ask him.
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
But if vader were to face any those superiors and rivals you had mentioned, i doubt that any of them would take vader down easily or comfortably because i think its fair to conclude that vader would go down after a long or a hard fight considering his strength and proficiency in the force added with his will power.
Too bad none of which could withstand Exar Kun's unique abilities and dark side knowledge (it's stated in the JA Sourcebook that what Kun learned on Yavin was exclusive to Kun and not known by Vader). I doubt Vader would have a defense for an attack that he doesn't even know about.
The ONLY one in that list that i see him beating vader rather comfortably is sidious seeing that he knows most of vaders weaknesses and there was a point when he was able to shut down vaders entire life support system to intimidate vader(i can't remember where this was from but kamikz brought this up).
All that sounds like is electronic manipulation, a technique known by Kun as well.
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Even the quote stating that caedus surpassed vader alone indicates that vader is an extremely powerful sith lord.Thats quite a good point but let me address the force fight issue, dooku has more experience but then so what? Sidious only had like decades whereas yoda had hundreds of years of experience yet couldn't defeat sidious.
As for the force lightning thing its not like vader can't deflect it or protect himself with a lightsaber coupled with vader having greater dark side knowledge and a much higher level of raw power.
You know I never denied Vader being an extremely powerful Sith Lord. And yes, you are certainly correct that Dooku's lightning- being significantly weaker than Sidious' (not to mention Vader's physical strength) will not be able to penetrate Vader's defense from a long-range status. However, Makashi employs only one-hand on the blade, and Dooku displayed the ability to use one-handed lightning quite effectively; he could possibly finish off Vader with a close-ranged gout of lightning. Or outmaneuver him with a lightsaber (We have no argument that Dooku is Vader's superior with a blade, yes?). Of course, Vader has an excellent fighting chance- but Dooku, in my opinion, has a slight edge.
Oh, and Advent, by the way... when did Exar Kun display electronic manipulation? Just wondering.
Originally posted by Faunus
Mace Windu > Sidious > Vader -thus- Mace Windu > VaderWhile I've always maintained that Vader is more powerful than Mace, your logic fails miserably.
While I certainly agree with you about that sort of logic being ridiculous, do you think Vader could take on Mace in a fight?
Originally posted by Faunus
Mace Windu > Sidious > Vader -thus- Mace Windu > VaderWhile I've always maintained that Vader is more powerful than Mace, your logic fails miserably.
Except Mace beat him in a straight lightsaber duel. Nowhere is it ever stated that Mace is generally all around stronger then Sidious, as it does in my comparison. And taking away Sidious's psychological advantage, Vader could probably do it too.
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
Except Mace beat him in a straight lightsaber duel. Nowhere is it ever stated that Mace is generally all around stronger then Sidious, as it does in my comparison. And taking away Sidious's psychological advantage, Vader could probably do it too.
Vader could defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel? I can understand you saying RotS Anakin has a certain chance against Sidious in a lightsaber duel (it's not a particularly good chance, though). But RotJ Vader? That seems a bit... absurd. Can you tell me why you think that?