Originally posted by DARTH POWER
for those people who say Vaders slow,, he fights pretty damn fast in the Force Unleashed game..
I don't think vader is a slow as some make him out to be.(he certainly is not close to rivaling some characters in speed) But you do realize that it is a fast paced video game, the novel would be the canon source if anything is mentioned on vader's speed.
Originally posted by Advent
@ Schwarzenegger:There's no way Kun is 40! 😆
Ulic Qel-Droma was only 22 when Exar fell from power. I'd say he's around the same age, because at the beginning of DLOTS, he's still considered a padawan.
Either way: prove Nayama, Tan, and Noon were on Yavin IV during the Jedi's strike. Indeed, it would seem unlikely considering "nothing could survive".
Logically, they couldn't have been there when it happened. If we assumed that as correct, then no contradictions arise.
The terentateks only remained because they weren't on the planet. They were on the Outer Rim planets lurking, according to the NEC.
Do you have any source confirming Larad was even there in the first place?
I'd trust the omniscient narration over a Rodian slave's account.
When does Sidious embark on this grand adventure to dig up treasure on Yavin? Even if he did manage to salvage scraps and pieces of scrolls, there's nothing linking Sadow's teachings to Vader. [/B]
Has anyone other then Sidious tampered with Vaders life support? If as you put it Advent "The "weaknesses" of his armor would be fairly simple for anyone with half a brain to figure out." Out of all the many Jedi/Bounty Hunters/Armies/Other Force users that Vader has faced, none even attempt to do this. An ion canon should royally f*ck him up, and yet no one to my knowledge does it. Which leads me to believe that theres something that stops them from doing it.
EDIT-
After rereading a section of ROVD Shryne attempts to stab his lightsaber into Vaders life support box and then Vader murks him with the force.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I don't think vader is a slow as some make him out to be.(he certainly is not close to rivaling some characters in speed) But you do realize that it is a fast paced video game, the novel would be the canon source if anything is mentioned on vader's speed.
yeah i knw.. but the only modern day visual source we have to see Vader fight is in video games..
because they culdnt show him fight in the prequels, and he will obviously not be shown in any of the upcoming clone wars animation either. but I have no doubt if he did, they would show him the way hes bin shown in the Force Unleashed game..
besides arnt games s-cannon or something.. that is secondary source that we use when a primary source is not available?? but of course ur right, the novel would be at least c- cannon, or possibly even g-cannon, as Lucas has himself contributed a lot to the Force unleashed story.
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
The same Grievous, that Count Dooku regularly thrashed around? The same Grievous that the movie showed Obi Wan beat rather easily. That same Count Dooku who Anakin "made a joke out of" , the same Obi Wan who barley beat a deranged, heartbroken Vader. Mace beating Grievous is NOT proof of him being superior in saber combat to Vader.
No, it's not enough to state that Mace > Vader in lightsaber combat as a whole- but it establishes, quite directly, that Mace is faster than Vader. For example- that Obi-Wan who you referred to in your post managed to fight Grievous thanks to his prodigious Soresu (which, you might not, did not prevent him from being overwhelmed by Grievous' 20 strikes per second- and both the novel and the script support the idea that it was far from easy), and Dooku was also 'hard pressed to outspar' Grievous on occasions- and the Clone Wars cartoon depict him as being on the defensive during their battle. The only being who managed to force Grievous on the defensive is Mace- and as Vader isn't as fast as Mace, I doubt he could do the same. Hell, as you have noted- when Vader goes up against an opponent with superior speed and agility, he gets overwhelmed. However, Grievous, Mace, and Sidious are all faster and more agile than Maul.
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
As for Sidious, the whole scene where Anakin is dumbfounded by their speed is n-canon as it directly contradicts the movie in every way as Anakin didn't even come into the room till Mace had Sidious on the ground.
...
Did you not look at my arguments with Nebaris? I have quoted multiple sources showing that thoughts and narration are canon- take the novel as depicting "What Anakin would see had he entered the office". In addition, the following quote both emphasizes Sidious' speed, and explains that Mace used his Vaapad to achieve the same speed:
"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again."
And this quote comes from the omniscent narrator, too. And you have the fact that Sidious' was fast enough to match Yoda in combat and maintain a steady offensive- and the novel depicts their fight as a 'tornado'. Sorry, he's faster than practically anyone in the movie saga other than Yoda and Mace who is drawing on Vaapad's superconducting loop feature.
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
How many Jedi must Vader beat/kill for this "He not FAST!!" crap to be thrown out the window? How many of the Jedi he's faced have had the advantage of speed on him? Largely none, because Vader is not the slow clunky doofus we see in ANH, Vader with the enhancements of the suit is very fast and very agile, not to mention the power boost he gains from the mechanical enhancements. The only person who has outclassed Vader was the reborn Maul a pure dark side clone/apparition, and even then he wasn't out matched to the point where he was a helpless child in awe by Maul's speed. The Prophets of The Dark Side noted that they were nearly equals.
Key word, NEARLY. And Maul was completely awed by Sidious' skill and speed from before TPM- yes, the same Maul who outclassed Vader in combat. Yes- Sidious was faster than Maul. Depictions, feats, and quotes all support this. And by RotS- while his technical skill probably decreased- his force attunement and mastery all increased, indicating that his force-powered speed would increase, as well.
And as RoDV notes, Vader's suit severely decreased his mobility and speed- he's not 'slow', but he isn't particularly fast, and he's certainly not agile.
Originally posted by Chick Magnet
However, I can see Mace beating Vader in a saber duel but it would be because of his Vaapad (Throwing Vaders rage and such back at him) NOT his blinding speed, and the victory would only happen after a while, which I doubt Vader would even let last that long considering he has the clear advantage in the force department, and KNOWS of Mace Windu's dueling skills, why would he even bother with a saber duel?
'Clear advantage in the force department'? Vader is better, but it's not that big an advantage- not quite as big as the advantage Mace has in lightsaber combat, as he is both faster, more agile, and just as technically skilled as Vader, if not more so (in order to be a master of Vaapad, one has to master multiple forms- and Vader, as far as we know, only completely mastered Djem So, although he had working knowledge of multiple forms). Mace has all the cards aside from brute strength in the lightsaber duel- and as Maul showed us, Vader's strength is more than matched by someone with superior speed.
Oh, and you didn't explain why Vader could defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel.
Originally posted by Chick MagnetAs long as we're using exaggerated sources:
Vader's TK abilities are more then enough to deal with Mace in a force fight look how he simply mauls this Jedi in TFU:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAn00Gfg4tU&feature=related - the end of the vid
Then proceeds to do some unknown Dark Side attack that looks like a hadoken:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00xbRoqVwBM - 2:16
Not to mention that devastating force wave he throws out.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CSrH1b-nQ28
Ignoring his lightsaber showings, the Force feats beginning at 3:05 pretty much speak for themselves. A 'hadoken' that breaks wood doesn't really compare to a sliding Force-crush that implodes eight super-battle droids, and Vader's Force-wave looks like a breeze compared to Windu's opening one.
The SW Databank and LoE both confirm that Mace fought through the battle droid army and took down the seismic tank.
Now that Vader's been stated as being superior to Kar Vastor, if Mace had so many problems with Vastor to the point where in his head he flat out admitted even on his best day he could never beat him, imagine how Vader would maul him with the force, considering he's you know better in every respect then the guy Mace can never beat straight up.'In every respect'? You got that from Gideon's quote?
The same Grievous, that Count Dooku regularly thrashed around? The same Grievous that the movie showed Obi Wan beat rather easily. That same Count Dooku who Anakin "made a joke out of" , the same Obi Wan who barley beat a deranged, heartbroken Vader.The amount of bullshit here is staggering. Dooku himself noted that he was 'hard-pressed' to defeat the cyborg in their sparring sessions, and Obi-Wan himself was clearly not having an easy time of defeating Grievous, as the novel confirms.
I don't even know why you're trying to compare RotS Vader to his suited incarnation from a combat standpoint. Anakin was more mobile, athletic, and considerably stronger than the Count. And I love how you try to downplay Obi-Wan's victory to Vader's merit. While he was 'deranged and heartbroken,' he was also about as pissed off as we've ever seen a SW character. The man wasn't thinking clearly; that doesn't mean he wasn't fighting as brutally and effectively as possible.
Mace beating Grievous is NOT proof of him being superior in saber combat to Vader.Considering he's the only duelist we've ever seen put Grievous on the defensive while trying not to get ripped off of a speeding mag-lev, it's proof of him being faster.
As for Sidious, the whole scene where Anakin is dumbfounded by their speed is n-canon as it directly contradicts the movie in every way as Anakin didn't even come into the room till Mace had Sidious on the ground.I agree.
How many Jedi must Vader beat/kill for this "He not FAST!!" crap to be thrown out the window? How many of the Jedi he's faced have had the advantage of speed on him?Most of the Jedi he faced were utter garbage in comparison to Windu or Kenobi.
Largely none, because Vader is not the slow clunky doofus we see in ANH,They're all more mobile than him. But again, none of the survivors he faces could touch the PT greats.
Vader with the enhancements of the suit is very fast and very agile,Excuse me while I laugh hysterically.
This doesn't even warrant a rebuttal.
not to mention the power boost he gains from the mechanical enhancements.You mean the physical advantages? Sure. None of them make him fast, as he laments throughout RoDV.
he only person who has outclassed Vader was the reborn Maul a pure dark side clone/apparition, and even then he wasn't out matched to the point where he was a helpless child in awe by Maul's speed. The Prophets of The Dark Side noted that they were nearly equals.And the only time we see them fight, Sidious made Maul his *****. The same Sidious who Mace disarmed and floored.
However, I can see Mace beating Vader in a saber duel but it would be because of his Vaapad (Throwing Vaders rage and such back at him) NOT his blinding speed, and the victory would only happen after a while,It would be a combination of the aforementioned Vaapad, the 'blinding speed', and his advanced shatterpoint ability.
which I doubt Vader would even let last that long considering he has the clear advantage in the force department, and KNOWS of Mace Windu's dueling skills, why would he even bother with a saber duel?Again - what's he going to do? Vader's greatest telekinetic feats, going by TFU - which, I remind you, isn't even out yet - are at least matched by Windu's in the CWC. He can't summon lightning, he can't fire destructive blasts like Kun, so how's he going to win?
Vader moves like he does in the cutscenes as well, and ROVD describes him as very fast and agile to the point where he massacres 5 Jedi in about half a page.Blatant lies. After repeatedly hammering in the fact that Vader is a slow, blundering wreck for the first half of RoDV, the last duel has him begin to come to terms with his fate and gain some control over himself. Shyrne notes that there's an ominous 'grace' to Vader's movements now, and that during their duel he draws upon several styles of combat. The Jedi that Vader 'massacres' are inexperienced Padawans and Knights, and Shyrne manages to give him hell before the final Force assault.
I will say a few of Vader's feats do impress me:
1. His taking on several Knights and Masters at once, including Morgukai trained Ma'Kis on Kessel in Purge
2. His killing the Dark Woman
3. His essentially fighting dozens, if not hundreds of mercenaries and then fighting through about the same number of Storm troopers in Empire: Betrayal
4. The sheer agility he displays in slaughtering one of the finer Royal Guardsmen in Crimson Empire just as a training exercise.
While he's not incredible as Mace or Yoda or Palpatine, there's a definite ability to him, and not inconsiderable speed when he adjusts to himself.
Originally posted by FaunusNot really trying to argue here but in order for wood alone to be able to support and hold an entire massive wooden structure would need to be very strong and very durable because wood alone in real life would break if it alone were the very foundations of a structure.
As long as we're using exaggerated sources:http://youtube.com/watch?v=CSrH1b-nQ28
Ignoring his lightsaber showings, the Force feats beginning at 3:05 pretty much speak for themselves. A 'hadoken' that breaks wood doesn't really compare to a sliding Force-crush that implodes eight super-battle droids, and Vader's Force-wave looks like a breeze compared to Windu's opening one.
But isn't wood especially the really big and thick ones tougher than organic beings?
As long as we're using exaggerated sources:http://youtube.com/watch?v=CSrH1b-nQ28
Ignoring his lightsaber showings, the Force feats beginning at 3:05 pretty much speak for themselves. A 'hadoken' that breaks wood doesn't really compare to a sliding Force-crush that implodes eight super-battle droids, and Vader's Force-wave looks like a breeze compared to Windu's opening one.
The SW Databank and LoE both confirm that Mace fought through the battle droid army and took down the seismic tank.
And I loved it in Shatterpoint, when Mace busted out those crazy force moves on Kar Vastor and beat the shi...Oh Wait...he didn't, or in AOTC when he used his crazy force wave to blow away all those little droids and save the da...Oh Wait...he didn't. Or...or...how bout in Shatterpoint when he used his powaz to save those kids by simply lifting the crawler out of the lav...Oh Wait...he didn't, just like um any other time ever. See the difference between you using The Clone Wars and me using The Force Unleashed as its being accepted in the canon that the displays they put on in that game are accurate displays of their abilities especially Vaders whose feats that I showed happened in cutscenes.
Other then that we have Vader doing feats like this in other canon materials, in fact Vader performs nearly an exact same power in SOTME
And we've seen NUMEROUS instances to where he uses his very superior TK abilities.
Show me ONE other canon piece, other then the CWC were Mace does ANYTHING near that. Sure he may have taken down the tank and the army, but he DIDN'T do it how he did in the CWC.
'In every respect'? You got that from Gideon's quote?
Yes, yes I did, by the wording Nick Rotsu gave who saw Kar Vastor obliterate Mace Windu in combat and who was a soldier in his army for years AND who was has been on the recieving end of a Vastor ass beating he gave this wording:
"There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.
"Wouldn't stand a chance", that means he be beaten down in every possible way by Darth Vader
The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor."
Note that this is the same man who tossed around Mace Windu like a toy:
"the Force whirled around him and Mace found himself wrenched off the ground, hurtling backwards through the air to slam against the tree...the whole tree shivered with impact...he managed to raise one gesture as though throwing a stone; Mace was whirled forward from the tree to crash against the skull of an astonished akk dog."
And this is the same man who is called by Mace's own admission:
Younger, faster, stronger, and more powerful." was someone Mace couldn't beat straight up on his best day and Nick knows this also.
So Kar Vastor despite being Younger, stronger, FASTER, and more powerful in the force then Mace Windu, "wouldn't stand a chance." against Darth Vader.
With that said, what is stopping Vader from destroying Mace with the force? Mace barely grounded Vastors force assualt and even in that case he couldn't completely stop it, how is he going to fair against someone who's stronger then Vastor with the force?
The amount of bullshit here is staggering. Dooku himself noted that he was 'hard-pressed' to defeat the cyborg in their sparring sessions,
Oh yeah he seems real hard pressed here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9OJWljX6m4
And yeah he might be hard pressed to defeat Grievous without killing him, because that would be contradictory to Sidious's plans.
and Obi-Wan himself was clearly not having an easy time of defeating Grievous, as the novel confirms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XqKvKUTElA
What happened in the novel and what happened in the movie were two very different things, in the book Obi Wan is nearly beaten by the sheer amount of strikes Grievous is unleashing at once, yet in the movie he already has one hand off Grievous before the 15 second mark, and has Grievous retreating and with two hands left in a little over half a minute...so ah you WOULDN'T call that easy?
Considering he's the only duelist we've ever seen put Grievous on the defensive while trying not to get ripped off of a speeding mag-lev, it's proof of him being faster.
Super he's faster then Grievous, so is Obi Wan going by the movies...so um HOW does that make his godlike speed so superior to Vaders? Other then that how many upper tier duelist has Grievous faced? Mace owns him, Obi Wan owns him, Dooku owns him, he runs from Anakin and Obi Wan on the invisible hand, he Dooku says in LOE he'd get leeted if he tried to fight anyone of merit. The only person of note who he beats is Shaak Ti, and the only times they fight is when Grievous is leaping from the shadows and ceiling fighting the Jedi for the first time, and the following when Shaak Ti has been weakened by Magna Guards already
This doesn't even warrant a rebuttal.
"Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remebered...but also more agile."
In addition to LS posted him taking on hundreds of bounty hunters and storm troopers, and Vader decimating without his saber on this:
He then proceeds to kill those two and two more Jedi within a half of a page. He was able to match the speed and overpower Dark Woman who was powerful enough to become a force ghost after her death, not to mention being all around skilled. He was able to match the speed of Maul all throughout their duel till the very end, and at one point overpowered him, surprising the Prophets causing them to remark of equal they were. This the same Maul who decimated Anoon the most technically skilled duelist of the order (over that of Yoda and Mace). Finally this Maul was pure dark side, which if anything should have increased his power. Yet Vader can stand against him, and isn't totally in awe of speed like you'll claim he'll be against Mace.
I'm not saying Vader is faster then Mace by any means I'm saying he wont be insta outclassed like Ventress was when she fought Mace, he'll be able to fight evenly with Mace Windu for a time, just as he did with Maul, he'd realize he can't beat him with his saber then just murk him with the force.
You mean the physical advantages? Sure. None of them make him fast, as he laments throughout RoDV.
"Vaders bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the Dark Side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses,his suit of armour and gadgets, which now seemed little more then an outfit."
By the end of the novel Vader is no longer bothered by the Suit.
Again - what's he going to do? Vader's greatest telekinetic feats, going by TFU - which, I remind you, isn't even out yet - are at least matched by Windu's in the CWC.
Urm NO thats BULLSHIT and you know it, why didn't Mace do his feats in Geonosis he could have saved like you know 100+ Jedi with his awesome non existent leet force powers. The difference between my source and yours is the fact that mine are backed up by other pieces of canon, where as yours are...Not.
Vader would eventually lose a long straight saber duel, however, he'd decimate him with the force, and why would Vader even try to fight MACE WINDU in a saber duel, he KNOWS Mace is a renowned saber duelist he KNOWS about Mace's Vaapad and Shatterpoint abilities.
AC, I find the argument regarding Mace's feats sort've ridiculous. Clone Wars is canon and George Lucas himself commented that the power of the Jedi depicted in that cartoon is how he imagines "real" Jedi would be like. Mace is top tier as a combatant according to numerous sources and is one of the greatest and most accomplished swordsmen in history. Belittling his feats seems to promote the contrary.
I'd be cool with it if it was Yoda or someone NOTED for their force talent, Mace Windu is no Yoda in the force, he's no Anakin, he's not even a Kar Vastor, and yet he can do all the shit he displayed in the CWC? Bull. Why didn't he do any of that shit ANY other time when his life depended on it? I'll answer for you: because he can't. In Shatterpoint he notes how he is hard pressed to multi task in the force while trying to save those Balawi kids, then he can't even lift the landcrawler up with the force. Inconsistency/10
And even if it is canon that just makes Vastor even stronger for murking him and in turn makes Vader even stronger for being better then Vastor, Vader wins either way.
Originally posted by Chick MagnetThe thing is in the rise and fall of darth vader, vader was only able to conjure up that attack because of the kaiburr crystal.
I got the quote and i can post it if you want me to.
But again its very contradictory as it was stated vader can never summon lightning so it may be a completely different attack.
wookie calls it "kinetite" http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kinetite
And i have no idea where the hell did they get that info from.
Originally posted by Chick MagnetDon't forget the dark womans ability to phase through solid metal which further shows that vader did defeat battle hardened experienced jedi.
He then proceeds to kill those two and two more Jedi within a half of a page. He was able to match the speed and overpower Dark Woman who was powerful enough to become a force ghost after her death, not to mention being all around skilled. He was able to match the speed of Maul all throughout their duel till the very end, and at one point overpowered him, surprising the Prophets causing them to remark of equal they were. This the same Maul who decimated Anoon the most technically skilled duelist of the order (over that of Yoda and Mace). Finally this Maul was pure dark side, which if anything should have increased his power. Yet Vader can stand against him, and isn't totally in awe of speed like you'll claim he'll be against Mace.[/B]