LUKE vs NIHILUS! re-match(all out)

No, you're assuming that he wasn't present, and that that somehow makes him an uncredible source, and failing to understand that possessing intimate knowledge of what took place in the first place (Nihilus pulling the Ravager out of the mass shadows of Malachor) automatically affirms his credibility.

This should solve the matter if anyone actually paid any attention to it. The fulcrum of this argument is that Tobin actually knew facts about the Ravager that would have been unknown to anyone not familiar with it or told sufficient facts. For a start, that it came from Malachor. Only someone who was at the battle (Canderous) would know that it fell at malachor. Tobin wasn't ( at least not provably). So someone must have told him where the ship came from. This would of course lead to questions of how Nihilus got it. Another is the existence of the Mass Shadow Generator, which no-one, other than someone present or informed about would know about.
This is backed upo by my own arguments about why he wasn't lying. For a start, he wouldn't lie to his own allies. That would just be stupid and not something that a military man would stoop to. For another thing, it would make no sense for the game developers to put that in if it wasn't true, especially given the lengths that were made to make him into an uber character (pretty much everyone goes on about how uber he is including the exile and traya). Etc, read the rest.

If that is not good enough for you then we shall have to move away from certainties into uncertainties. We know that Nihilus got the Ravager from malachor, the only thing we need to verify is how. Again let me state: he needs to have done this through some way that we must decide upon. Occums razor states that it would be the most likely way that is the correct way. This would be via Nihilus using the Force. I've already posted why this would be the most likely version of events. No other versions have something directly backing it up (Tobins statement) even if it is potentially fallible. But fallible support is still support. Juries convict on fallible evidence so why not we? If something is supported by something fallible, does it not still stay up?
If there is no other version (of events) available, then the only version must be taken as fact. If there are other versions available then the most likely should be taken as fact (untill another time).

You can go on a ramble crap like "Oh fcuk its not very favourable of you blah blah" but it won't change the fact that i am an pleasent and acceptable member of society

Ha!! Buy a dictionary. I doubt that they've changed the meaning for 'pleasant and acceptable' to Vile and Repugnant.

Oh dear you can't possibly be this stupid.

I simply point your your disability to name the ship correctly and you come out with crap like "what is in a name".

Oh dear. you can't really be this uncultured can you?

How can you not even recognise that classic quote.

Anyway, I had to say something. Would you have prefered it if I had said that birthcontrol sould be your parents new god, or something?

Once again your "made up analogy" makes absolutely no sense

Yes it did. You either just lacked the wit to understand it, disliked it becuase it beat your point or those steroids are donig funny things to your brain.

Its funny how you claim that "nihilus lifted the ship to the surface" and then contradict yourself by claiming "oh maybe the ships were already there".

1. i never made that (1st) claim
2. How can you lift something to the surface unless its buried? I never said that.
3. The ships were on the surface. You can see this if you actually play through the game. You actually walk through several.

A "paragraph" made up of a few petty sentences and i didn't respond to the other one simply because you have no credibility at all and the fact that it made little to no sense.

Again, it did make sense, you're just stupid/petty/insane on steroids.

2) Prove he was even there in the first place, prove that his presence would be hidden from the sith.

It wouldn't. 😬 They were allies, remember? he wouldn't be hiding.

3) Even if he was on a ship, he would have to be up close to actually see nihilus performing the feat which by then he would have gotten nihilus attention and thus killed in the process or indoctrinated.

Yeah, becuase you'd have to be really, really close to see a tiny thing like the Ravager. Nice one, Ace 😉

Thats me, signing off.

Btw these are the arguments that Ivalice says 'make no sense', just to clear that up. Judge for yourselves.

No, becuase Visas said he was makes it so. And becuase where before he could rape the Exile (and her companions) in the force she can now fight him on equal terms.

Ivalice asked me how I know that Nihilus was weakened after ttrying to drain the Exile.

The line says 'He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet… that is a measure of his power.

Not 'his forces tore it' or 'that is a measure of his fleets power', but 'his' as in singular. The way your interpreting it would be if I said 'palpatine used the death star to blow up Alderaan, that is the measure of his power' The dustruction would be credited to the death star as in it wasn't an actual measure of Palpatines power that destroyed Alderaan but the death stars.

Ivalice said that nihilus' power in pulling the Ravager out of Malachor could be credited to his fleet.

Now, i don't have the time to reply to that... yet.

But i thought i asked you to quote gideons last post and outright answer and debunk them before replying to mine?

Or do you lack the courage to actually even attempt to try to debunk them?

I'll be back later, and this time because you failed to quote gideons post, i will make sure you get humiliated and owned.

Gideons quote asked the impossible, I can not prove that Tobin was there to witniss the event. There. Happy now? Now exept that my version of events is truth. Becuase if you don't then i'll pimp slap you with a donut, just like my old pal the Joker.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Gideons quote asked the impossible, I can not prove that Tobin was there to witniss the event. There. Happy now? Now exept that my version of events is truth. Becuase if you don't then i'll pimp slap you with a donut, just like my old pal the Joker.

Therefore you couldn't prove that tobins statement was valid.

Read the above and learn.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Read the above and learn.

You are still coming up with unsupported and ridiculous assertions to prove tobins points.

Once again refute gideons post before attempting to refute mine.

Someone doesn't need to see something to know its true. The fact that tobin knows intimate details about the event proves he wasn't making it up, and I've proven why he wasn't lying. etc. learn to read

Thanks to Neb, wherever he is.

One of you needs to copy both statements (Tobin's and the loading screen's) and then someone can verify, just in case Exodus embellishes or puts a nice spin on it.

Originally posted by Gideon
One of you needs to copy both statements (Tobin's and the loading screen's) and then someone can verify, just in case Exodus embellishes or puts a nice spin on it.

I already posted Tobin's statement on the Ravager.

"This ship… is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet… that is a measure of his power."

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I already posted Tobin's statement on the Ravager.

"This ship… is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet… that is a measure of his power."

And what does the loading screen say?

Originally posted by Gideon
And what does the loading screen say?

Loading Screen says

The ravager was hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V by its new master. He used it to escape imprisonment on Malachor V

I would like to point out that it says nothing of him pulling a fleet from Malachor like Exodus also defended earlier in this thread.

It would seem that not only are Nebaris and Exodus wrong, but the coffin has been nailed shut on their entire argument. Two sources discuss the retrieval of Darth Nihilus's flagship from the mass shadows -- yet only one confirms that he removed the fleet as well -- that source being an insane, delusional underling who wasn't even present to witness the feat in question. And not only can you prove that he wasn't there, you can't substantiate or describe the events of it. How do you know that Nihilus didn't perform a technique to retrieve his flagship? A ritual? How long did it take?

I'm afraid he's losing more luster by the minute. A couple of half-trained Jedi were able to hurl Admiral Pellaeon's fleet of Imperial-class Star Destroyers (each one being larger than the Ravager) out of the Yavin system instantly; Darth Vader's Secret Apprentice rips one out of the sky with minimal effort.

Essentially, you have no way to prove that Nihilus's telekinesis is extremely impressive. Is it weak? Surely not. But you'll need a lot more than that to insinuate that it is upper tier.

Substantiate and elucidate and then we might get somewhere. Otherwise, this feat is laughable.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Loading Screen says

The ravager was hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V by its new master. He used it to escape imprisonment on Malachor V

I would like to point out that it says nothing of him pulling a fleet from Malachor like Exodus also defended earlier in this thread.

doesn't say he used the force either....

Here is my point tho: just because he can pull a ship out a gravity well (even if he did.... ) big deal. Kyp durron pulled a ship out of a sun, do we put him in the upper tier? i think not.

second: even if nihilus is upper tier in telekinises, how does that help him against luke? Luke has the ability to anchor himself in the force so that "no power in the universe can move him" (near the end of the Dark nest series) so how is nihilus going to have any affect?

Point-of-fact, truejedi, is that Kyp Durron's feat isn't as impressive as removing a Star Destroyer from mass shadows; first, the ship in question was the Sun Crusher -- which is about the size of an X-wing -- and second, (to my knowledge) Yavin doesn't generate the density of a black hole.

Though, you're right. Specifically, it doesn't mention what he used. It could have been telekinesis. It could have been a ritual. It could have been a tractor beam.

The sun crusher is that small? Jesus I thought it was gigantic.

it was small enough to dock beside the millenium falcon, this is true. and you are of course right about yavin. I was trying to put Kyp in the ballpark, so to speak, but he probably couldn't be placed there with that feat alone.

Its true that Dorsk 81 by channelling the force from mere dozens of jedi apprentices was able to move an ENTIRE FLEET of star destroyers out of Yavin's solar system in AN INSTANT. So until we know nihilus didn't channel the force like that, His achievement doesn't really rank that high (though i'm still not ready to concede the point that he actually used the force at all....)

Originally posted by truejedi
it was small enough to dock beside the millenium falcon, this is true. and you are of course right about yavin. I was trying to put Kyp in the ballpark, so to speak, but he probably couldn't be placed there with that feat alone.

Its true that Dorsk 81 by channelling the force from mere dozens of jedi apprentices was able to move an ENTIRE FLEET of star destroyers out of Yavin's solar system in AN INSTANT. So until we know nihilus didn't channel the force like that, His achievement doesn't really rank that high (though i'm still not ready to concede the point that he actually used the force at all....)

i honestly don't remember. if it was implicitly stated, i'd have to read it. I know they went to the top of the temple, but i don't think during the action that is stated. May be stated later by Kyp when he's looking back on it, but as i said, i'm not sure.

Essentially, you have no way to prove that Nihilus's telekinesis is extremely impressive. Is it weak? Surely not. But you'll need a lot more than that to insinuate that it is upper tier.

Well, I've always thought that pulling a ship (fleet?) out of a gravity well so powerful that it ripped apart 2 fleets as well as Malachor 5 was a pretty impressive feat. But then I've always been a bit eccentric.

Its true that Dorsk 81 by channelling the force from mere dozens of jedi apprentices was able to move an ENTIRE FLEET of star destroyers out of Yavin's solar system in AN INSTANT. So until we know nihilus didn't channel the force like that,

I thgink that Nihilus' rather bad habit of killing everything around him kind of points to him not being a ritual kind of guy.

How do you know that Nihilus didn't perform a technique to retrieve his flagship?

What technique is there that does that? Except for Force pull of course.
I guess Palpatines wormhole thing could also do it though. But that wasn't invented yet.

How long did it take?

Length of time isn't really a factor. He can't just pull it out bit by bit like a splinter, the gravity stops that. Admitedly if he took longer then it would make him seem weaker but he's still doing the same amont of work, he's just straining.

Gideon did you actually read the above arguments. If not then please do, I'm interested in what you think of them.

see you all tommorrow