Originally posted by Cavalier
On another note, can I get any public opinion on Digi's "souls = information that can be retained between matches" claim?
I just read your argument and based on what you provided (which I understand can be one-sided), I'd tend to agree with your assessment.
From your argument..tourney rules limit carryover of only 'experiences/memories' and on surface souls don't seem to fit into that category, although souls itself doesn't have an objective definition so for some people a soul may be just experiences/memories.
So, I assume digi has his defense for why souls WOULD fall into the 'experiences/memories' category and I'll be interested to hear it (or more likely he's already made such an argument).
Originally posted by Starscream MYeah, but you can't exorcise experiences/memories... it's literally more people inside his head, and one would think that you couldn't have Cpt. Marvel's power, as he claims to have, simply by possessing his memories and experience.
I just read your argument and based on what you provided (which I understand can be one-sided), I'd tend to agree with your assessment.From your argument..tourney rules limit carryover of only 'experiences/memories' and on surface souls don't seem to fit into that category, although souls itself doesn't have an objective definition so for some people a soul may be just experiences/memories.
So, I assume digi has his defense for why souls WOULD fall into the 'experiences/memories' category and I'll be interested to hear it.
That's the catch, is that Digi's either only got memories and experience, and therefore no granted power, or he has literal souls that don't carry over.
Souls are legal, Smurph. I don't need a tourney post to debunk that. They were ruled part of information retention. You can not like it all you want, but let me know when you get the ruling overturned (which won't happen). Until then, your point is moot.
I'm also officially requesting an extension for the match, which lasted 34 hours...under 2 days. That hasn't happened all tourney, and with playoffs not starting until the 1st it's not like we don't have time. Smurph? Blair? Ill? Is this ok?
Originally posted by DigiMark007I've talked to Delph personally, and that didn't seem to be his recollection, so I'd like some proof plz.
Souls are legal, Smurph. I don't need a tourney post to debunk that. They were ruled part of information retention. You can not like it all you want, but let me know when you get the ruling overturned (which won't happen). Until then, your point is moot.
Joel says:
so, last time I talked to you about Digi's tactic, I think what was said was this (correct me if I'm wrong):
Joel says:
you told Digi that it was up to him to argue the logistics of keeping the powers from match to match
Joel says:
and that there was an issue about whether souls count as info that can be retained, but that it was up to Digi to argue
Joel says:
am I close?
Delph says:
Pretty much
Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm also officially requesting an extension for the match, which lasted 34 hours...under 2 days. That hasn't happened all tourney, and with playoffs not starting until the 1st it's not like we don't have time. Smurph? Blair? Ill? Is this ok?
bumping.
Originally posted by Cavalier
I've talked to Delph personally, and that didn't seem to be his recollection, so I'd like some proof plz.
No problem. Give me a bit to dig it up. Needless to say, if it hadn't been approved, I wouldn't have tried it in the first place.
Originally posted by Starscream MMy point was that a soul was exorcised from Minion in the past... the scans are in my tourney post on the subject.
you could delete memory...but I'm not quite sure what your point wasone hypo to test a tourney rule:
if a character took a serum that powered him up, does he retain that powerup for the future matches?
Point being: the comic constantly treats them likes souls and refers to them as such. Digi has said himself that there's no way it can just be a collection of info.
Digi needs them to be treated as real people for the sake of keeping his power up from the Marvel Family, but he needs them to be treated as info for the sake of keeping them between matches.
In order for him to have his cake and eat it too, he needs real people's inner souls, meaning disembodied minds with personality and free will, to be included under the information retention rule.
DigiMark007 wrote on Sep 16th, 2008 05:56 PM:
I misspoke slightly with Minion, concerning his information retention. I was in the process of figuring out the nuances of it when I talked to you about it, and want to clarify myself just to eliminate every doubt.
I said that he could, say, assimilate Tony's armor and replicate some of its qualities. This is false. He retains only information, not the ability to adapt powers to himself. So he could have perhaps Tony's scientific knowledge, combat skills, etc. or access to the databases in his armor. But he couldn't create a sonic blast, for example, just because the armor can.
So it's skills, memories, information, data, etc. But it goes slightly beyond that. He literally encases a person's mind within himself. Not physically, since he's killing the physical brain. But the person actually resides in Minion thereafter....almost like a soul, but it functions exactly like a mind. Similarly, he wouldn't be able to, say, use telepathy with Jean Grey's mind, since her telepathy is also dependent on the body that hosts it. But he would have her knowledge of using telepathy, for example.
So let's say I draft Karate Kid, and assimilate him (which I'm considering). I'd have KK's mind (and thus skills) inside me for the rest of the tourney, yes? But it's limited only to what a person's mind/soul provides them, not powers that are dependent on the body at all.
I want to confirm that this is acceptable, so that there's no controversy when I use it. Because if I slowly upgrade Minion with various skills (like KK, who's a main component) he'll be a friggin' beast by playoff time.
illadelph12 wrote on Sep 16th, 2008 08:21 PM:
Yes, that's an affirmative. 👆Happy hunting Digi.
....
I already talked to you using the anecdote of Karate Kid, who I'm probably picking up for my next match. But to feel totally secure, I want to share the full extent of my plans with Minion, so as not to be stopped cold with a ruling.
As I explained it, Minion assimilates not just data/instincts/skills but the actual mind/soul of the person. The ruling, then, was that anything that the mind/soul grants me, is allowed, while anything requiring the body is not, which includes nearly everyone's powers (even mind-based powers like telepathy wouldn't be included). This was happily approved by you.
I'm drafting Mary Marvel (classic, before any upgrades from Darkseid/Black Adam), who is high meta. Having her mind/soul allows her to summon the power of Shazam. The essence/mind/soul of Mary is the key, not her body. Add that to KK, Minion's own powers, and the various others I have already, and those whom I may draft/assimilate as things progress, and I'm turning Minion into the most powerful character in the tourney, by a lot, next round.
Based on the earlier ruling, this should be legal in regards to the information retention rule. But it's obviously a bit more than KK and other martial artists and such. I don't want to hide anything from you, because then I'd be putting myself at risk in the match and would only have myself to blame.
Thanks.
-Digi
illadelph12 wrote on Sep 30th, 2008 12:37 AM:
It's legal, but you'll likely get some push back on the logistics of it (whether assimilating her mind will really give you access to her magic enchanted powers).
....
So. The only caveat was that I'd need to provide proof that I have access to the Marvel's powers when I assimilated their souls, which I've done ad nauseum.
It leaves nothing at all in doubt. I didn't lie, bend the truth, or try to sneak anything by ill. I told him EXACTLY what I was doing and it was approved. Souls count as information retention. Period.
Originally posted by Cavalier
I understand that, but don't act like the situation is the same. Id's situation was horribly muddied by misunderstanding. Delph knew exactly what he was approving when he replied to me. If I hid anything from him, or made it hard to understand, please explain why. As it is, I didn't, so I fail to see the similarity.
So like I said before, if you get the ruling overturned, then you can talk. As it is, your objections are moot and my plan is legal.
Originally posted by Starscream M
so Digi, is Minion transferring the brain/soul of the beings that he assimilates or is he copying the brain/soul of those beings?I think this distinction is critical
Transfer, clearly. How do you copy a soul?
Originally posted by DigiMark007I'm referring to the one-sided arguing more so than anything else in the Id situation. You dumped a few paragraphs on him, and he didn't disagree. But as we've seen, Delph not choosing to cut you off from a strategy does not mean that the strat is without legality issues. He's simply leaving it up to others to make the case, as he sees the argument on both sides.
I understand that, but don't act like the situation is the same. Id's situation was horribly muddied by misunderstanding. Delph knew exactly what he was approving when he replied to me. If I hid anything from him, or made it hard to understand, please explain why.
Joel says:
because my argument is gonna be that souls are not info or memories that can be retained, as they are "living" beings that can be exorcized
Joel says:
is there any way you can make a ruling on whether souls count as info, if I give proof that they're more than just memories?
Delph says:
You'd need to make a convincing argument
I've been a victim of mid-tourney rule changes before. It always sucks, because I do everything in my power (and did this time as well) to explain EVERYTHING about my plan beforehand so that no confusion is present.
Knowing what the rules were, I asked delph point blank if I could use souls as information retention. He said yes. I don't know what else to tell you. I didn't try to make the conversation one-sided, because I wanted to avoid sh*t like this. I just told him my idea, and asked if it was ok. He said yes. I didn't even argue for the "yes" side, I just asked the question and he made the ruling off of his interpretation of the rules.
So if you manage to get me d*cked over by getting ill to change his mind, fine. But the fact of the matter is, it would be getting d*cked over, because I said nothing to hide my plan or sway his opinion, and merely asked if the rules (and his ruling) would allow for my plan. So it wouldn't be "new information" or anything like that....it would be a blatant rule change that everyone has been aware of for weeks now (and others have raised the objection too, you're not the first).