Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You guys seem certain it will boil down to a sniper battle.
You're the one who argued Swagger would certanly choose to position himself to kill via sniper since this is what he is best at, YOU DID THIS. When it became obvious that 47 is a far superior sniper, you changed stance and now it wouldn't ever come to snipers. Childish tactics.
Originally posted by UtrigitaExactly, he rolled the dice and didn't crap out.
I didn't think that a Sniper in his right mind, could fire a bullet over a mile exceding the effective range of the sniper he was using yet he did it.
Is it stated that it was a hundred men? Lets not forget the facts concerning his visit at the crippled russian and his fight with them, he prepares indept for the confrontation traines the FBI agent to snipe and make pipeboms etc. The four guards pale in comparison to 47 taking out three assasins that is trained from birth like himself.Yes, it is quoted as 100 men.
The FBI agent did crap during Swagger's visit to the Russian, he shot one man from what I remember, so I was wrong, it was 27, not 28 men that Swagger killed.
For sniping, if I remember correctly, they doesn't imply all around but simply sniping. No 47 never shot down two choppers, which no sniper in his right mind would even try to engage.Swagger was retreating from trained soldiers on their turf, he had to run at least 8 miles (if I remember correctly he and Donnie were 8 miles behind enemy lines, or was it km?) Safe to say that he didn't take out all 70 men with a sniper rifle. CERTAINLY he left that .50 cal there, it's not exactly ideal to carry while under pursuit.
Swagger is very sane, he was forced into a bad situation against a chopper, and won, simple as that.
Originally posted by PlacidityI knew this would come up, to which I answer with this:
Thats Complete balooney (sp?). What you said about adjusting the scope is true, but one still has to compensate by aiming above the head. 47 knows exactly how to compensate for a 4km shot, he has enough skill and experience to predict the trajectory of the bullet. At 4km, lots of shit can happen, mainly wind, air resistance and obviously gravity. The fact that 47 makes a 4km shot is much more than just the distance.Also, now that you've brought this up, Swagger had a spotter doing all his calculations and other crap. 47 does all that in his head, which is again shows he is superior.
Scene 2, when Colonel Johnson is trying to recruit Swagger:
Johnson "This intercept claims that the shot will be taken from beyond a mile, we need you to scout, tell us how you would do it, so we could stop it."
Some more dialogue about Swagger's longest shots being in places one wouldn't wanna have to go afterwards to confirm them....
Swagger "You know what it takes to make a shot at that range? Everything comes into play that far. Humidity, elevation, temperature, wind, spindrift, There's a 6 to 10 second flight time, so you have to shoot where the target is going to be. Even the Coriolis effect, the spin of the Earth, comes into play."
So Swagger knows the science of making these long shots. Just because he doesn't have a spotter doesn't mean he cannot make them. Given the time to scout the city, he can accurately judge how much to adjust for each shot, even one as far out as 4 km.
Not to mention he is shown actually making these adjustments when he pwned the can of Dinty Moore stew.
Originally posted by UtrigitaPoint is that if Swagger was forced to take that same shot, he could make it. He would make the same adjustments 47 is sure to have made and executed.
Did I say that? No I said that you trying to compare the two relevant situations isn't logical, again one for all we know just does is (again a testemony to him being the very best of the assasins) the Other finds a one mile shot difficult and have to make various calculation for the shoot, there is the difference.
Originally posted by RobtardYeah, but you brought it up. I was going with what I was SHOWN in the movie, not just heresay. When we decided to accept EVERYTHING we saw in the movies, ludicrous as they may be, this opened up a whole new can of worms.
You're the one who argued Swagger would certanly choose to position himself to kill via sniper since this is what he is best at, YOU DID THIS. When it became obvious that 47 is a far superior sniper, you changed stance and now it wouldn't ever come to snipers. Childish tactics.
This put Swagger in a position where he is a much better killed than 47, we are TOLD Swagger killed 70 men, then again 27 men. As I said before, It's not like we can count them off, like "One two three, ten, 20, shit he killed SEVENTY men." When are we shown or told about 47 doing anything even close to this?
It is said that he did so, not shown, but since we are going with ALL of it, that's why I changed my stance.
Is it crazy that Swagger killed 70 then 27 men? Absolutely, but no more crazy than a 4 km head shot.
And 47 is NOT the superior sniper, read my previous posts to see why.
Point is, 47 has a superior rifle, and that he is not a superior sniper.
i've already posted the rifle 47 used in the scene...the Blaser R93 LRS2 mid range .303...it's exceptionally accurate when used with a Horus computerised scope which calculates adjustments itself...or a mildot
Swagger uses a number of rifles
M40A3, Barrett M107, Cheyenne Tactical M-200 Intervention (the one used on the can and one of the longest range rifles in the world)...it also uses an advanced ballistic computer, laser rangefinder, meteorological and enviromental sensor packages...in terms of landing bullet height it is accurate to within 1/16th of an inch at 3000 yards (1.704 miles) and groupings to within 29in along a near perfect horizontal range
the M107 and the M-200, in terms of distance, are superior to the Blaser....considerably
so to merely say "47 has a superior rifle" means you're clearly not doing your homework
and why hasn't any of 47's genetic augmentations been mentioned...he is effectively the product of genetic selection for superior attributes
Originally posted by jaden101Sarcasm, dude. I was trying to drive home the point that 47 had to have made adjustments to his scope, just as Swagger would do if confronted with a 4 km shot. After all, whats so hard about picking up a rifle, placing the crosshairs where you want the bullet to go, and squeezing the trigger?
i've already posted the rifle 47 used in the scene...the Blaser R93 LRS2 mid range .303...it's exceptionally accurate when used with a Horus computerised scope which calculates adjustments itself...or a mildotSwagger uses a number of rifles
M40A3, Barrett M107, Cheyenne Tactical M-200 Intervention (the one used on the can and one of the longest range rifles in the world)...it also uses an advanced ballistic computer, laser rangefinder, meteorological and enviromental sensor packages...in terms of landing bullet height it is accurate to within 1/16th of an inch at 3000 yards (1.704 miles) and groupings to within 29in along a near perfect horizontal range
the M107 and the M-200, in terms of distance, are superior to the Blaser....considerably
so to merely say "47 has a superior rifle" means you're clearly not doing your homework
and why hasn't any of 47's genetic augmentations been mentioned...he is effectively the product of genetic selection for superior attributes
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Sarcasm, dude. I was trying to drive home the point that 47 had to have made adjustments to his scope, just as Swagger would do if confronted with a 4 km shot. After all, whats so hard about picking up a rifle, placing the crosshairs where you want the bullet to go, and squeezing the trigger?
i think the intricacies of sniping adjustments dont really need to be debated because they're par for the course and it's dependant on the scope as to how the adjustments are made...as you stated...some rifles stay centred on the target and the rifle is adjusted in line with the parameters of the shot...some rifles the sight aim has to be adjusted
point is...swagger's rifle (Cheyenne Tactical M-200) has vastly better technology to allow for calculations of range, wind direction and speed and all the other factors that effect a shot
one aspect we cant debate is bullet type though...we dont know if vld bullets are used...
comes down to this though
Swagger uses a superior, higher calibre (0.408), longer range rifle to shoot a can a mile away...47 uses an inferior mid-range .308 rifle that, while it has good tech support, isn't as good as the M-200 to make a shot that is 4km or 2.4 miles
but as i said...artistic lisence was used with 47 because a shot of that distance is simply impossible with the rifle being used...
but...we go with what happens in the film in these debates...and as such it's clear that 47 is a vastly superior sniper
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yeah, but you brought it up. I was going with what I was SHOWN in the movie, not just heresay. When we decided to accept EVERYTHING we saw in the movies, ludicrous as they may be, this opened up a whole new can of worms.This put Swagger in a position where he is a much better killed than 47, we are TOLD Swagger killed 70 men, then again 27 men. As I said before, It's not like we can count them off, like "One two three, ten, 20, shit he killed SEVENTY men." When are we shown or told about 47 doing anything even close to this?
It is said that he did so, not shown, but since we are going with ALL of it, that's why I changed my stance.
Is it crazy that Swagger killed 70 then 27 men? Absolutely, but no more crazy than a 4 km head shot.
And 47 is NOT the superior sniper, read my previous posts to see why.
First of all, I'm still waiting for you to post Swagger's best feats in regards to the weapons/skills posted.
Secondly, Swagger was with a team (NOT ALONE) when he performed those multi-kills and it isn't mentioned how he got them.I'd assume he sniped while his men covered and took the heat off him, since he is a top sniper, that makes the most sense. But he could have used explosives to kill a great number or he could have gone gun ho, don't know, but the first is the most probable.
Thirdly, 47 is the better sniper, he can hit at a far longer range, ergo, he's better, not sure why you continue this idiocy. Both of them use a sniper in the movie; 47's kill was far more difficult to accomplish, in fact, it would be impossible for a just a regular human. Tis the reason why he's a "super assassin" and the "very best."
Originally posted by jaden101You really think that Swagger, if given the same rifle 47 used, or even with his own rifle, has no chance of making the same shot? After all that is said about him in the movie? After all the knowledge he displayed of shooting?
i think the intricacies of sniping adjustments dont really need to be debated because they're par for the course and it's dependant on the scope as to how the adjustments are made...as you stated...some rifles stay centred on the target and the rifle is adjusted in line with the parameters of the shot...some rifles the sight aim has to be adjustedpoint is...swagger's rifle (Cheyenne Tactical M-200) has vastly better technology to allow for calculations of range, wind direction and speed and all the other factors that effect a shot
one aspect we cant debate is bullet type though...we dont know if vld bullets are used...
comes down to this though
Swagger uses a superior, higher calibre (0.408), longer range rifle to shoot a can a mile away...47 uses an inferior mid-range .308 rifle that, while it has good tech support, isn't as good as the M-200 to make a shot that is 4km or 2.4 miles
but as i said...artistic lisence was used with 47 because a shot of that distance is simply impossible with the rifle being used...
but...we go with what happens in the film in these debates...and as such it's clear that 47 is a vastly superior sniper
You are missing the point. 47 shot Belikov with the crosshairs centered on Belikov's forehead. Let's say a regular guy is there with 47, someone who has shot rifles before, but with no formal sniper training, and 47 calibrates the scope for the shot so that the crosshairs need only be centered on the targets forehead. You think the normal guy can make the shot?
Originally posted by RobtardHis feats are in the movie, you know his feats. If you wanna list a head to head comparison, go ahead and list them.
First of all, I'm still waiting for you to post Swagger's best feats in regards to the weapons/skills posted.
Secondly, Swagger was with a team (NOT ALONE) when he performed those multi-kills and it isn't mentioned how he got them.I'd assume he sniped while his men covered and took the heat off him, since he is a top sniper, that makes the most sense. But he could have used explosives to kill a great number or he could have gone gun ho, don't know, but the first is the most probable.Swagger was alone, Donnie was killed, he was retreating and fighting off 100 men at the same time.
In the cabin shootout, Memphis killed two men, I watched it today and actually counted.
70 men and a helicopter, 26 men and a helicopter.
Thirdly, 47 is the better sniper, he can hit at a far longer range, ergo, he's better, not sure why you continue this idiocy. Both of them use a sniper in the movie; 47's kill was far more difficult to accomplish, in fact, it would be impossible for a just a regular human. Tis the reason why he's a "super assassin" and the "very best."Again, all 47 had to do was center his crosshairs on Belikov's forehead and squeeze the trigger. Swagger, with his knowledge of shooting, is surely capable of making the same adjustments. He delves so far into the art and science of shooting it aint even funny.
FFS, if 47 calibrated the scope so all that was needed was to center the crosshairs on the target and handed you or I the rifle, we could make the same shot, surely you must see this.
I've seen both movies and 47's feats are better, you think otherwise, that is why I asked you yo list them for Swagger, if you don't want to, I understand.
You're right about that, his spotter was killed and he did presumably kill 70 men as noted, he was using a .50 cal, so it seems he killed them via sniping.
Wrong about the cabin; you're grossly exaggerating what Swagger did. The Latino FBI agent killed more than Swagger, as the majority of the mercs where killed when he blew the explosives and the napalm. Shooter is on right now on HiDef, so I'm watching it, to bad for you.
Swagger also took out that chopper by shooting and blowing a huge propane tank that the chopper happened to be under. I.E. Swagger didn't shoot it down with his sniping kills. He tried to take it down beforehand with his machine gun, but was unable.
LoL... that's all 47 had to do? How you downplay a 2.5+ mile shot while making Swagger out to be superhuman is hilarious. You're assuming Swagger could make that shot, when he clearly stated that a shot at a mile is extremely hard and multiple factors have to be perfect for it to work. Face it, 47 is the better sniper as seen in the movie, which is what we go off, stop making shit up.
Originally posted by RobtardFine haermm you go first.
I've seen both movies and 47's feats are better, you think otherwise, that is why I asked you yo list them for Swagger, if you on't want to, I understand.
You're right about that, his spotter was killed and he did presumably kill 70 men as noted, he was using a .50 cal, so it seems he killed them via sniping.Dude, you really think he humped 8 miles/kilometers carrying that huge thing? AND the ammo? Get real. He aint Ahnuld.
Wrong about the cabin; you're grossly exaggerating what Swagger did. The Latino FBI agent killed more than Swagger, as the majority of the mercs where killed when he blew the explosives and the napalm.Killed by bombs Swagger made by hand with materials he purchased from a sporting goods store, by bombs which he strategically placed. Killed by his hand, same thing. he determined when to blow the bombs, and he took out at least 15 by himself with his rifle and pistol.
Yes, Swagger killed them, Memphis only killed two. Swagger made the bombs, placed them, and deided when to blow them. Memphis shot two men, FACT.
Swagger also took out that chopper by shooting and blowing a huge propane tank that the chopper happened to be under. I.E. Swagger didn't shoot it down with his sniping kills. He tried to take it down beforehand with his machine gun, but was unable.Doesn't matter, he took it the **** out, what's the difference? Now you are questioning HOW he killed them? crylaugh Dear lord you are reaching.
LoL... that's all 47 had to do? How you downplay a 2.5+ mile shot while making Swagger out to be superhuman is hilarious. You're assuming Swagger could make that shoot, when he clearly stated that a shot at a mile is extremely hard and multiple factors have to be perfect for it to work. Face it, 47 is the better sniper as seen in the movie, which is what we go off, stop making shit up.
Afraid not, I have listed facts that squash that rumor. Facts that you are blatantly ignoring, and questions you aren't answering because you know if you do so, it will hurt your argument.
I will.
That gun weighs about 30 pounds, it isn't all that heavy. Besides, the last thing you seen in that scene is Swagger taking out the chopper and the men below with the .50 cal, he had the gun with him already. Not sure why this is in dispute, he's a sniper, it's what he does, snipes.
LoL. Swagger did make the bombs, the FBI agent hit the trigger, it was a joint effort. Swagger did no shot at least 15. Danny Glover's character specifically said he was bringing in 24 mercs. You see at least 10 die with the explosives, FBI shot 2 and around 4 were in the chopper. So that leaves about 8-10 that Swagger shot directly.
Not saying he wasn't impressive in the cabin scene, but you made it out like he killed everyone by himself via gun fire, which clearly isn't the case and is my point. So in fact, you're reaching with your skewed portrayal of Swagger and your comfort smilie only serves to illustrate that. Swagger needed help to win the cabin fight and he didn't directly kill the majority of the mercs, fact. 47 kills alone, that is what he was designed to do and he's the "very best" at it.
WTF? The facts are what we see in the movie, period, or as you say "endo story". In the movie, 47 is the far superior sniper. He makes a shot that is 2.5+ miles away and does it standing up no less, while Swagger only makes a 1 mile shot and states himself that it is an extremely difficult shot to make. Your claim that Swagger could magically make a 2.5+ mile shot is both sad and hilarious.
Agent 47
Sniping: Made a 2.5+ mile head shot
Blade Weapons: Killed 5 other armed (swords) expert assassins at one time with short swords.
Machine Gun: Took on 8-10 men in a room while avoiding gunfire himself with dual MP5, did not miss.
Pistol: Killed multiple opponents while both seen and unseen, never missed. Can dual wield guns and still doesn't miss.
Hand to Hand: Seen using a combination of mixed martial arts to take out another expert assassin; tore off the guys ear during the duel
Explosives: Rigged a door to explode and laid glass balls in front as an early detection.
Stealth/Evasion: Has killed hundreds of targets all over the globe and is all but a mystery. Stayed one-step ahead of a Russian SWAT team in a hotel while picking them off as he made his escape.
Counter-Intel: Unknown and not sure how this would factor into the fight. Was noted to be an expert in every aspect of combat and noted as being the very best of assassins in the worlds best assassination organization.
RJ,
Since you're avoiding doing it for Swagger, here is for 47.
If anyone can think of a better example for any of the above, please state them.
Originally posted by RobtardK.
I will.
That gun weighs about 30 pounds, it isn't all that heavy. Besides, the last thing you seen in that scene is Swagger taking out the chopper and the men below with the .50 cal, he had the gun with him already. Not sure why this is in dispute, he's a sniper, it's what he does, snipes.30 pounds, not to mention the fully loaded magazines. Swagger had a regular sniper rifle, not sure what caliber it was, and Donnie had an assault rifle. You really think he left the assault rifle behind? Not to mention all the other gear he was carrying. Swagger was on the run from 1oo men and killed 70. All the while he was reloading by himself and probably using his regular sniper rifle and the assault rifle.
But lets pretend for a moment that he did snipe all 70 men. Whats that say about him? 47 sniped one man, Swagger over 70. 70......1...70....1........no comparison.
LoL. Swagger did make the bombs, the FBI agent hit the trigger, it was a joint effort.So if Swagger had rigged a claymore with a trip wire, and he wasn't there to kill whoever tripped the mine by his own hand, it wouldn't count? Is this really what you are saying? The fact that Swagger shot the propane tank and killed men, taking out a chopper too, shows his combat genius, his prowess and fighting ability.
Swagger did no shot at least 15. Danny Glover's character specifically said he was bringing in 24 mercs. You see at least 10 die with the explosives, FBI shot 2 and around 4 were in the chopper. So that leaves about 8-10 that Swagger shot directly.You are forgetting the 4 guards he took out to get to the Russian. Then I counted at least 10 to 12 he shot, that makes 16. And he took out the chopper with 4 men inside with one shot, that's 4 more. And yes, he placed the explosives where he knew the mercs would likely be, and when they were within blast range, he ordered them killed, so yes, HE killed them.
Not saying he wasn't impressive in the cabin scene, but you made it out like he killed everyone by himself via gun fire, which clearly isn't the case and is my point. So in fact, you're reaching with your skewed portrayal of Swagger and your comfort smilie only serves to illustrate that.No, I claimed that he "took them out."
WTF? The facts are what we see in the movie, period, or as you say "endo story". In the movie, 47 is the far superior sniper. He makes a shot that is 2.5+ miles away and does it standing up no less, while Swagger only makes a 1 mile shot and states himself that it is an extremely difficult shot to make. Your claim that Swagger could magically make a 2.5+ mile shot is both sad and hilarious.Still haven't answered my question. Here, I'll post it AGAIN.
If a normal guy were there with 47, and 47 calibrates the scope on his sniper rifle so that from the 4 km distance all one needs to do is center the crosshairs and squeeze the trigger, would the normal guy be able make the shot? YES.
Swagger is "The Best", interpret that as you will. I take it that one of his areas of expertise is sniping. Swagger knows more about shooting than most men will ever know, he is one of the few alive that can make a shot over one mile. When he is explaining the shot to Colonel Johnson, yes, it sounds like a myth, but it sounds that way because so few can do it.
I posted above, so go at it with Swagger.
Your ridiculousness is getting offensive, stop making shit up.
ANSWER😮bviously ****ing not. There is more to making a shot than just a calibrated scope. You have to have balance, your breathing has to be right, the way you squeeze the trigger is a factor etc. etc. etc. You're showing your complete lack of knowledge when it comes to firing a rifle.
As noted above, 47 made that shot while standing up, he wasn't laying down with the rifle on a tripod. Pretty much makes him super-human in that aspect, as a 2.5+ mile shot in that position would factually be impossible. But hey, "it's in the movie."
Originally posted by Placidity
That really is going to a new low RJ... I'd say its more sad than hilarious.
I don't ever expect him to admit he's wrong, I just keep debating out of morbid curiously of what nonsense will come out next.
"Swagger could make 5 mile shot while dead and he can use a lightsaber, ya huh!"