Originally posted by cloud102the text is hard do read..
Actually, didn't Orion survive a nuc combined with Radion in Simonson's run? Shows how good his durability is. Surviving his own weakness.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I never said that, I said he'd take 8/10 without having to bother with Radion(Orion could probably make a show of it though). As far as I'm concerned, not enough concrete evidence exist on either side to make a definite claim. I can see reasonable arguments from both sides to support their case, it's just a matter of which you'd rather believe.But just for those seeking examples, Mephisto used Surfer's Power Cosmic to repair/recreate a bizarre alien spaceship from another universes because Surfer's power was better at that kind of thing than Mephisto's own, so I'd say the evidence is slightly more in favor of him being able to do it successfully than there is to the contrary(still not enough to be certain though).
Were talking about a different company and a higher vibrational world, new genis is beyond the scope of this reality. IMO the odds are 2 stacked agaisnt SS being successful in this and even if he is I doubt the process is fast enough to catch Orion off gaurd. Regardless I think a 8/10 is a tremendous downplay of Orion's own feats and powerset but whatever to each his own. I think if both characters are written at full capcity, a well written fight would be fairly even with a slight advantage to Orion on the account of the superior stats and MA ability.
Originally posted by Makky
Were talking about a different company and a higher vibrational world, new genis is beyond the scope of this reality. IMO the odds are 2 stacked agaisnt SS being successful in this and even if he is I doubt the process is fast enough to catch Orion off gaurd. Regardless I think a 8/10 is a tremendous downplay of Orion's own feats and powerset but whatever to each his own. I think if both characters are written at full capcity, a well written fight would be fairly even with a slight advantage to Orion on the account of the superior stats and MA ability.
And I don't see the 8/10 being an easy fight for Norrin, just the inevitable conclusion. Savage Hulk beats Thing 9-10/10 but it's almost never easy. Like I said I'm sure Orion can make a show of it. Surfer's just got too much going for him in speed/reflexes and fights in a far more effective manner than Orion IMO. Orion will try to mix it up or just blast away, Surfer will dodge and contain him in hardened energy or something like that.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Feel free to think that. Like I said either is theoretically possible, it just seems slightly more likely to me that Surfer will be able to since his power's recreated exotic substances from other universes before with ease.And I don't see the 8/10 being an easy fight for Norrin, just the inevitable conclusion. Savage Hulk beats Thing 9-10/10, but if comics has shown us one thing it's that it's almost never easy. Surfer's just got too much going for him in speed/reflexes and fights in a far more effective manner than Orion IMO. Orion will try to mix it up or just blast away, Surfer will dodge and contain him in hardened energy or something like that.
Like I said above, Orion's character has been fleshed out a lot more. Orion IS definitely the better fighter and strategist. Hell, he can always rely on the Mother Box for strategies as well. Check out Simonson's Orion run for examples.
I see it 5/10 or sleight edge to Orion. He has more going for him when we consider all the tech.
Originally posted by cloud102
Like I said above, Orion's character has been fleshed out a lot more. Orion IS definitely the better fighter and strategist. Hell, he can always rely on the Mother Box for strategies as well. Check out Simonson's Orion run for examples.I see it 5/10 or sleight edge to Orion. He has more going for him when we consider all the tech.
And what edges do you see Orion's tech giving him? I don't think I've ever seen a single feat from Orion w/Motherbox that was beyond the abilities of Surfer. On the other hand I've seen Surfer pull off some stuff on the fly that I can't picture Orion pulling off.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I have little doubt that Orion is a better fighter, but that doesn't make him a more effective fighter. Orion's most likely to try to mix it up or blast away, Surfer's likely to come up with some off the wall trick to put him down that saves time.And what edges do you see Orion's tech giving him? I don't think I've ever seen a single feat from Orion w/Motherbox that was beyond the abilities of Surfer. On the other hand I've seen Surfer pull off some stuff on the fly that I can't picture Orion pulling off.
With the experience Orion has (since he was a child), I'd say he is a lot more effective. He is the God Of War (and has even stated that he knows the art of war from across the universe and beyond). So, I doubt Surfer can best him here.
Orion's plan against Arnicus Wolfram can attest for this, IMO.
And like I have shown above speed isn't a factor. Orion has followed Miracle with Black Racer's equipment before. And we all know how fast BR can go.
In terms of tech, New Gods are capable of creating all types of shit. Check out Seven Soldiers. I believe it was the New Gods who created Zor. One of the Imperishable Weapons. Capable of taking on Spectre himself. Orion augmenting the Mother Box was capable of creating the Genesis Box. A weapon that converted the universe into pure energy. Then the Mother Box that also allows Orion to counter most attacks. Like Transmutation for example.
Plus moving in and out of time freely. So, most of Surfer's tricks, I can see Orion countering with said tech.
Orion may be the God of War but he is more likely to use the direct physical approach or simply blast away than anythin else. Even with all his supposed experience he doesnt use his more exotic abilities near as much as surfer does. And thats what matters here.
Orion chasin Mr Miracle around at some unknown speed hardly indicates anything at all. It certainly wasnt mentioned that they were moving at FTL or even close to it. I can brin up scans of quasar chasing surfer but that certainly isnt a good indicator of quasars speed in or out of battle. So that scan in no way disproves surfers speed and manovrability advantage. Not even close
Also now can someone please post a scan in Rock of ages where it is mentioned that orion creates or augments the genesis box? Cuz i did not see such an instance anywhere in the arc. Infact here where Orion uses the Genesis box nothing is mentioned of him creating it/augmenting it or always carrying it around with him at all.
Orion even mentions that the box is programmed to rearrange the universe and remake it and since he is the last true warrior it is fit that he should strike with the ultimate weapon. He never says that he programmed it or created it or anything even close to some of the claims being made in this thread.
Originally posted by Naija boyOrion even mentions that the box is programmed to rearrange the universe and remake it and since he is the last true warrior it is fit that he should strike with the ultimate weapon. He never says that he programmed it or created it or anything even close to some of the claims being made in this thread.
While you're right on the money, I'm not even sure why that was brought up - considering Rock of Ages takes place as an alternate and future event, and wouldn't apply to current Orion anyway. Now, there must've been a reason (probably a bad one), but I'm not going to read through it to find out why. 😛
Surfer beats Orion as badly as he did in The Hunger. 😛 The end.
Originally posted by cloud102
With the experience Orion has (since he was a child), I'd say he is a lot more effective. He is the God Of War (and has even stated that he knows the art of war from across the universe and beyond). So, I doubt Surfer can best him here.
Originally posted by cloud102
Orion's plan against Arnicus Wolfram can attest for this, IMO.
Originally posted by cloud102
And like I have shown above speed isn't a factor. Orion has followed Miracle with Black Racer's equipment before. And we all know how fast BR can go.
Originally posted by cloud102
In terms of tech, New Gods are capable of creating all types of shit. Check out Seven Soldiers. I believe it was the New Gods who created Zor. One of the Imperishable Weapons. Capable of taking on Spectre himself. Orion augmenting the Mother Box was capable of creating the Genesis Box. A weapon that converted the universe into pure energy. Then the Mother Box that also allows Orion to counter most attacks. Like Transmutation for example.Plus moving in and out of time freely. So, most of Surfer's tricks, I can see Orion countering with said tech.
Originally posted by Enyalus
While you're right on the money, I'm not even sure why that was brought up - considering Rock of Ages takes place as an alternate and future event, and wouldn't apply to current Orion anyway. Now, there must've been a reason (probably a bad one), but I'm not going to read through it to find out why. 😛
Exactly. It wouldnt even be applicable even if it had been relevant to this match(which it isnt). The reason it was brought up was to provide an example of Orions transmutation abilities. People were actuall claiming that Orion used his transmutation powers to create the Genesis box which then remade the universe. Fortunately i happened to have Rock of ages lying around on my computer( thank heaven for downloads).
Surfer beats Orion as badly as he did in The Hunger. 😛 The en
👆
Originally posted by Naija boy
Orion may be the God of War but he is more likely to use the direct physical approach or simply blast away than anythin else. Even with all his supposed experience he doesnt use his more exotic abilities near as much as surfer does. And thats what matters here.Orion chasin Mr Miracle around at some unknown speed hardly indicates anything at all. It certainly wasnt mentioned that they were moving at FTL or even close to it. I can brin up scans of quasar chasing surfer but that certainly isnt a good indicator of quasars speed in or out of battle. So that scan in no way disproves surfers speed and manovrability advantage. Not even close
Also now can someone please post a scan in Rock of ages where it is mentioned that orion creates or augments the genesis box? Cuz i did not see such an instance anywhere in the arc. Infact here where Orion uses the Genesis box nothing is mentioned of him creating it/augmenting it or always carrying it around with him at all.
Orion even mentions that the box is programmed to rearrange the universe and remake it and since he is the last true warrior it is fit that he should strike with the ultimate weapon. He never says that he programmed it or created it or anything even close to some of the claims being made in this thread.
I believe he did create the Genesis Box on his own. Seeing the nature of The New Gods tech. Each Mother Box is programmed to obey only it's master. And seeing as Orion never claimed that he DIDN'T make the Mother Box, most people I know find that he did augment the Mother Box.
Originally posted by Enyalus
While you're right on the money, I'm not even sure why that was brought up - considering Rock of Ages takes place as an alternate and future event, and wouldn't apply to current Orion anyway. Now, there must've been a reason (probably a bad one), but I'm not going to read through it to find out why. 😛Surfer beats Orion as badly as he did in The Hunger. 😛 The end.
There is only one batch of New Gods. I believe this was stated in Seven Soldiers. Similar to Living Tribunal.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Champion's got the same kind of hype and he's still not more effective than Surfer in combat. We can compare feats to see who is more likely to pull off an exotic win if you want though.Champion also never defeated the "Greatest Martial Artist in the Universe" in a PACIFIST state.
Details?
Here are the details with scans. Which is why Orion fans loved Simonson's series. He actually used his brain here.
When Arnicus Wolfram, a Lex Luthor type villain that has lived a millennia by siphoning the energy of others into himself, spends the majority of his fortune to obtain Apokoliptan weapons from Intergang in an effort to kill Orion, he travels back in time to the Ivy Mike detonation, the most powerful explosion ever set off by man.
A single blast of Radion kills most New Gods (See Avia) and stuns even the likes of Kalibak for a good amount of time (As Orion did in the Evanier run).
The nuclear device COMBINED with the radion might have killed Orion.
This a feat on multiple levels…we get a glimpse into his durability, but more importantly are the incredible planning skills he shows here, using time as a weapon against Arnicus and defeating him before he ever stood foot on the battle field.
He then rips out Arnicus’ eyes.
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/23fcbf1b.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/bdcc1fd8.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/60009e8d.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/521e34ad.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/9316c2bb.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/355df30c.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/e24de751.jpg
No we don't, what speed feats did Miracle pull off with the equipment?
I believe in the very same issue, it was stated that THEY were moving beyond the speed of light. I'll try and check my collection.
Orion doesn't have access to all that for this fight, all he has is his standard tech.
Originally posted by cloud102
I believe he did create the Genesis Box on his own. Seeing the nature of The New Gods tech. Each Mother Box is programmed to obey only it's master. And seeing as Orion never claimed that he DIDN'T make the Mother Box, most people I know find that he did augment the Mother Box.
lol what? That is simply fallacious logic. After ive proven that ur premise is indeed baseless and as a result of misrepresenttion of whats on panel u have resorted to wishful thinking. Orion said that the genesis box was programmed to recreate the universe. By not claiming HE was the one that programmed it, he was obviously implying that someone else programmed it. There is nothing to even remotely sugest that he programmed it. I dont care if most people u know believe he augmented the motherbox. That is the argumentum ad populum fallacy You expect us to ignore clear on panel evidence because people u know belive orion created the Genesis box. That is just pure nonsense. Orion didnt create anything and that scenario in NO WAY shows any display of his personal transmutation powers. To think it does even after the evidence is simply indulging in useless speculation and is quite laughable.
Originally posted by Naija boy
lol what? That is simply fallacious logic. After ive proven that ur premise is indeed baseless and as a result of misrepresenttion of whats on panel u have resorted to wishful thinking. Orion said that the genesis box was programmed to recreate the universe. By not claiming HE was the one that programmed it, he was obviously implying that someone else programmed it. There is nothing to even remotely sugest that he programmed it. I dont care if most people u know believe he augmented the motherbox. That is the argumentum ad populum fallacy You expect us to ignore clear on panel evidence because people u know belive orion created the Genesis box. That is just pure nonsense. Orion didnt create anything and that scenario in NO WAY shows any display of his personal transmutation powers. To think it does even after the evidence is simply indulging in useless speculation and is quite laughable.
What you seem to dismiss is how the New Gods use their tech in the first place. Each MB is designed by his or her own user. Orion never said that someone else created the Genesis Box, he said it was programmed, it could of been him or he could have TOLD the MB to do it. Like he does ALL THE TIME.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Feel free to think that. Like I said either is theoretically possible, it just seems slightly more likely to me that Surfer will be able to since his power's recreated exotic substances from other universes before with ease.And I don't see the 8/10 being an easy fight for Norrin, just the inevitable conclusion. Savage Hulk beats Thing 9-10/10 but it's almost never easy. Like I said I'm sure Orion can make a show of it. Surfer's just got too much going for him in speed/reflexes and fights in a far more effective manner than Orion IMO. Orion will try to mix it up or just blast away, Surfer will dodge and contain him in hardened energy or something like that.
SS has versatility, but Orion is the better fighter. Orion has some of the best MA in the DCU,so his application of speed and power is incredibly precise and effective...and for a character who's stats allowed him to stalemate a sun amped superman thats a pretty damn good thing. That's the benefits of aquiring MA, it ultalizes ur body to its full effectivness since u have to tune every physical attribute to its maxim.
Orion's gear is just the icing on the cake, and while not as versatile as SS he does have some pretty slick feats to accompany him.
Originally posted by cloud102
Champion also never defeated the "Greatest Martial Artist in the Universe" in a PACIFIST state.
Originally posted by cloud102
Here are the details with scans. Which is why Orion fans loved Simonson's series. He actually used his brain here.When Arnicus Wolfram, a Lex Luthor type villain that has lived a millennia by siphoning the energy of others into himself, spends the majority of his fortune to obtain Apokoliptan weapons from Intergang in an effort to kill Orion, he travels back in time to the Ivy Mike detonation, the most powerful explosion ever set off by man.
A single blast of Radion kills most New Gods (See Avia) and stuns even the likes of Kalibak for a good amount of time (As Orion did in the Evanier run).
The nuclear device COMBINED with the radion might have killed Orion.
This a feat on multiple levels…we get a glimpse into his durability, but more importantly are the incredible planning skills he shows here, using time as a weapon against Arnicus and defeating him before he ever stood foot on the battle field.
He then rips out Arnicus’ eyes.
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums...ad/23fcbf1b.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums...ad/bdcc1fd8.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums...ad/60009e8d.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums...ad/521e34ad.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums...ad/9316c2bb.jpg
Originally posted by cloud102
I believe in the very same issue, it was stated that THEY were moving beyond the speed of light. I'll try and check my collection.
Originally posted by darthgoober
He can't, because technically Champion IS the "Greatest Martial Artist in the Universe".And yet, he has loosed to people who aren't even MA's. Champion isn't a very good example.
Yeah he set a nice trap with some prep, but how does this attest to his being more effective in combat?
I hardly see Surfer using similar tactics. Most of the time he's just using energy blasts as well. And most of his "versatility" won't work on Orion.
Lightspeed is nothing to Surfer. That guy moves and tracks things that move at THOUSANDS of times the speed of light.
Well, BR has never been clocked, but it's been shown that he moves many, many times faster than the speed of light. Orion was shown moving faster than the speed of light even without his harness.
