ROTS Obi Wan & Anakin vs ROTS Mace

Started by Man of Christ7 pages

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
First off there is a difference from finding one's shatterpoint and being able to exploit it especially with more than one oppenent.

Lol nice argument, I counter with tell that to Dooku or Cin Drallig.

Scenario: Obiwan and Anakin double team Mace who uses his saber much more then he uses the force so they take him in lightsaber combat. Mace's force crush can be be countered and his biggest advantage (vapaad) is negated. The team is close to Mace's saber skills to begin with and Mace isn't noted to be a force powerhouse. Therefore he loses.

1) dooku and drallig are not in league with mace, especially considering that mace is next only to yoda in rank in the jedi order and that you have to be either mace or yoda to compete with the emperor, not mace, drallig or yoda, so i think GL makes it pretty clear that mace is on par with siddious which logically puts him above drallig and dooku. nuff said there

2) scenario: sicnce obi wan hasnt shown much of a propensity to counter offensive force attacks, such as the way dooku rag dolled him with the force in ROTS, we have no reason to think he would be able to counter a force crush which gives him a heart attack.

anakin is a good swordsman but hasnt studied vaapad which mace kows which gives mace the advantage. i say mace stays calms and takes him apart in about 5 minutes.

3) you say mace isnt a force powerhouse, i urge you to watch the clone wars'

outcome: mace has to work but emerges victorious

In my other thread between Mace and Obi Wan, everyone there states that Mace mops the floor with Obi Wan. Anakin I do not believe will would give Mace any problems in a one on one fight and we have the fact that the team has never shown themselves to work good together.

I think Mace has a good chance in defeating them. However, I do with agree with Man of Christ as to Mace being a powerhouse in the force department.

No one has really explain why Dooku with be more better with the force than Mace.

1) dooku and drallig are not in league with mace.

Ah...nay.

They are very much in Mace's league, Dooku for one was viewed as "One of the greatest Jedi in its 25,000 year history" and even a "Greater Sith Lord." (ROTS Novelization) He is a man who has completely mastered the lightsaber, whom managed to duel with Yoda. Who in fact dueled Mace Windu to a stand still (Obsessions). Doubly he has FAR more force power then Mace Windu. Cin Drallig himeself was a complete master of the lightsaber, whom would also give Mace a far good duel had they ever fight.

I'm sorry kiddo but the Clone Wars feats are purposely exaggerated and cannot be taken as fact, as Mace for one, could he perform all these ridicules moves why didn't he destroy all those droids on Geonosis, he would have saved the slaughter of some 200 Jedi. Furthermore its inconsistent with his power portrayal in the novel Shatterpoint where he whines about his lack of ability in the force. Where he could even lift a land crawler with the force. Not to mention was completely overpowered by Kar Vastor in the force. And the novel over rides a cartoon which purposely exaggerates Mace's power beyond belief.

especially considering that mace is next only to yoda in rank in the jedi order

I'm sorry but rank and power are not in correlation, as its not dictated by "who beats who in a fight" or "whos stronger then who" as if that was then Anakin should have his spot and be encroaching on Yoda's spot in the Jedi order

and that you have to be either mace or yoda to compete with the emperor, not mace, drallig or yoda,

Acoording to who? Nick Gillard? Um who gives a flying f*ck what Nick Gillard thinks. He's a stunt/sword fight coordinator, he's not George Lucas and he is not a representative of LFL, and those stupid power levels have never been endorsed or supported in any other medium by LFL. So ah no moron. Not to say that Drallig anyways as the force comes into play and he's decimate Drallig with the force. However someone like Anakin Skywalker could go toe to toe with Sidious, as well as Dooku, Dooku would in all likely hood die, but both can still compete with him.

so i think GL makes it pretty clear that mace is on par with siddious which logically puts him above drallig and dooku.

A>B so A>C = FAIL.

nuff said there

Nuff said that your a doofus.

we have no reason to think he would be able to counter a force crush which gives him a heart attack.

Nay.

Mace crushing Grievous chest is not an impressive feat, as you know: Grievous is not force sensitive, and can't counter force attacks. Lets see Mace do that to a force user, oh wait...

anakin is a good swordsman but hasnt studied vaapad which mace kows which gives mace the advantage.

Anakin is "the strongest, fastest, most powerful Jedi of his generation perhaps of any generation" (ROTS Novel) He managed to crush Count Dooku in 12 seconds a feat not even Yoda can lay claim too, he managed to turn Dooku's lightsaber mastery, force power, knowledge of the force, and vast prestige and wealth into a "complete joke". In his duel with Dooku Anakin's decisions in the force became reality, he simply decides Dooku should lose his arms, and it happens. Not to mention that Durge a 2000 year old battle hardened mercenary whose faced Jedi, Sith and Mandalorians and calls Anakin the "fastest he's ever seen." And even more-so Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader states that Anakin knows "all forms of combat." So Vaapad won't be the be all end all that decides this, Anakin has more then the necessary speed, power, skill and combat experience to stand against Vaapad, the form.

Its super-conducting loop, wouldn't necessarily benefit Mace as he'd have the rage of the chosen one in full effect bearing down on him a mans whose raw fury was enough for his decisions become reality in the force. Whose to say that the loop will go on forever, it was never fully tested with Sidious as Mace found the shatterpoint and cause him to slip, and the duel itself is even suspect as there is ample evidence of Sidious throwing the whole thing. He knew Anakin was coming, he fell just in time for Anakin to see him defenseless cornered by a big bad black Jedi. Sidious avoids the killing blow with Mace in the movie.

i say mace stays calms and takes him apart in about 5 minutes.

I say you fail.

3) you say mace isnt a force powerhouse, i urge you to watch the clone wars'

Fail

outcome: mace has to work but emerges victorious

FAIL.

Actually, George Lucas said that you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. He subsequently said that Anakin, if he had not lost to Kenobi, would eventually have gotten stronger than Sidious.

And yeah, they Clone Wars feats can be taken as fact. That being said, though, Dooku has feats outside of it (such as owning Ventress, making a far more percise usage of the force than Mace had ever displayed) that put him on a level above Mace. Within it, and outside of it, both Yoda and Sidious (Sidious outside of it, obviously) have feats well beyond what Mace can do. Yeah, he's powerful in the force, but he isn't the Uber Master MoC is making him out to be. The only category in which Mace is the Uber Master is in lightsaber combat, where I believe he could defeat Anakin. Not without difficulty, though, obviously.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Mace dies. And then Obi-Wan and Anakin probably die against Yoda; they will both be fatigued (it won't be a walk in the park for them), enabling Yoda to easily disable one of them with the (preferably Anakin) and defeat the other in a lightsaber duel (preferably Obi-Wan).

You know stance on the CW cartoons and I have more then enough evidence to back up my stance, you going "nuh uh" won't change a thing. But either way it works against his pathetic argument.

Originally posted by Dr. Styles
Ah...nay.

They are very much in Mace's league, Dooku for one was viewed as "One of the greatest Jedi in its 25,000 year history" and even a "Greater Sith Lord." (ROTS Novelization) He is a man who has completely mastered the lightsaber, whom managed to duel with Yoda. Who in fact dueled Mace Windu to a stand still (Obsessions). Doubly he has FAR more force power then Mace Windu. Cin Drallig himeself was a complete master of the lightsaber, whom would also give Mace a far good duel had they ever fight.

I'm sorry kiddo but the Clone Wars feats are purposely exaggerated and cannot be taken as fact, as Mace for one, could he perform all these ridicules moves why didn't he destroy all those droids on Geonosis, he would have saved the slaughter of some 200 Jedi. Furthermore its inconsistent with his power portrayal in the novel Shatterpoint where he whines about his lack of ability in the force. Where he could even lift a land crawler with the force. Not to mention was completely overpowered by Kar Vastor in the force. And the novel over rides a cartoon which purposely exaggerates Mace's power beyond belief.

I'm sorry but rank and power are not in correlation, as its not dictated by "who beats who in a fight" or "whos stronger then who" as if that was then Anakin should have his spot and be encroaching on Yoda's spot in the Jedi order

Acoording to who? Nick Gillard? Um who gives a flying f*ck what Nick Gillard thinks. He's a stunt/sword fight coordinator, he's not George Lucas and he is not a representative of LFL, and those stupid power levels have never been endorsed or supported in any other medium by LFL. So ah no moron. Not to say that Drallig anyways as the force comes into play and he's decimate Drallig with the force. However someone like Anakin Skywalker could go toe to toe with Sidious, as well as Dooku, Dooku would in all likely hood die, but both can still compete with him.

A>B so A>C = [B]FAIL.

Nuff said that your a doofus.

Nay.

Mace crushing Grievous chest is not an impressive feat, as you know: Grievous is not force sensitive, and can't counter force attacks. Lets see Mace do that to a force user, oh wait...

Anakin is "the strongest, fastest, most powerful Jedi of his generation perhaps of any generation" (ROTS Novel) He managed to crush Count Dooku in 12 seconds a feat not even Yoda can lay claim too, he managed to turn Dooku's lightsaber mastery, force power, knowledge of the force, and vast prestige and wealth into a "complete joke". In his duel with Dooku Anakin's decisions in the force became reality, he simply decides Dooku should lose his arms, and it happens. Not to mention that Durge a 2000 year old battle hardened mercenary whose faced Jedi, Sith and Mandalorians and calls Anakin the "fastest he's ever seen." And even more-so Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader states that Anakin knows "all forms of combat." So Vaapad won't be the be all end all that decides this, Anakin has more then the necessary speed, power, skill and combat experience to stand against Vaapad, the form.

Its super-conducting loop, wouldn't necessarily benefit Mace as he'd have the rage of the chosen one in full effect bearing down on him a mans whose raw fury was enough for his decisions become reality in the force. Whose to say that the loop will go on forever, it was never fully tested with Sidious as Mace found the shatterpoint and cause him to slip, and the duel itself is even suspect as there is ample evidence of Sidious throwing the whole thing. He knew Anakin was coming, he fell just in time for Anakin to see him defenseless cornered by a big bad black Jedi. Sidious avoids the killing blow with Mace in the movie.

I say you fail.

Fail

FAIL. [/B]

you continue to conduct yourself in an uncivilized manner with rants and insults. that being said i will try to keep this simple.

1) George lucas statment shows that the only jedi order members who are on par with siddious are mace and yoda, since obi wan and cin drallig are not on that list we know that they cant compete with mace because he is on siddious' level as stated by lucas.

as for dooku, we know he cant beat the emperor because if he were he would have taken out siddious and taken over per the usurpation doctrine of sith and the rule of two.

so, mace is above dooku, above mace, and above drallig.

2) clone war feats are cannon so maces force feats count like the rockslide and such

3) you have said nothing to counter the fact that obi wan doesnt show any defense against offensive force attacks let alone a FORCE CRUSH, it will give obi wan a heart attack and sweep him, aside.

4) if anakin were so great he wouldnt have lost to obi wan but whatever flaw it is be it hubris, lack of wisdon etc.. it will serve against anakin in his INEVITABLE 1 on 1 with mace which will ensure because obi wan has not a chance in this fight.

conclusion: mace still wins after some work

Please, MoC. First of all, it's not like Obi-Wan is a pathetic weakling (as one of the greatest Jedi in the Order, and arguably also in its entire history, he's bound to have some force skills) and is defenseless against Mace's crush; besides, Mace's preferred way of fighting is utilizing his lightsaber, where even Obi-Wan can last a while against Mace, individually. Not beat him, but give him a hard time.

And Mace never displayed the ability to use the force with such percision as to pop out somebody's heart.

At Styles: Meh. I've been with you on this, and I don't intend to argue with you again. But remember that I was supporting you in this argument.

i didnt say obi wan was weak i said that he hasnt shown me anything to indicate that he can stop a force crush

Styles, how many times do I have to ask you to stop insulting in your posts? It is pointless and annoying. Please knock it off or the next one will be a official warning.

One thing that should be straighten out, Anakin is not and never was the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his time. Potential and is are two very different things.

Anakin could have but never did or was. Yoda was the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his era. Second to Yoda is Mace. Now you can argue who is third and fourth.

I think it is pretty safe assumption that Obiwan could throw up a force shield or something of the sorts to counter Mace's crush. I think it is pretty stupid to use cw cartoons(over the top powers) as the bread and butter of your argument that Mace is a force powerhouse ranking close Yoda,Sidious,Dooku,etc.

Especially considering the battle of(dantooine) where mace takes out a whole army by himself if about 4-5 months after AOTC in which he got surrounded by less droids in the movie and how about 200 jedi with him at the begining of the battle plus if you watch a clip of cw cartoon where Mace takes out the army there is a point where he is he is surrounded yet only the droids in front of him attack yet there are rows of droids behind him doin nothing!!!

Anakin is the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his GENERATION. Yoda, being 900 years old, and Mace, being old enough to be out of Anakin's generation, are not included. It simply means that Anakin is the best Jedi out of... err... his 'age group'. Lolz.

WTF, AC?

I'mma gonna go eat some Chinese and when I get back, I'd like to debate some of this. Because now you've just turned my world upside down and I'm drowning in confusion.

I can appreciate the notion that Dooku is in Windu's league; the official databank and multiple sources confirm that, when Dooku was a Jedi, he and Yoda were the only two duelists capable of defeating Windu in single combat and likewise, Yoda: Dark Rendezvous confirms that in terms of swordsmanship, Mace Windu is the only Jedi in existence who is "Dooku's equal" on neutral ground. However, while Dooku's expertise with a lightsaber and experience in combat is arguably equal to Windu's, his Sith allegiance and association with the dark side makes him especially vulnerable to the shatterpoint charism and the metaphysical properties of Vaapad, a form which Dooku is not a master of, and which is -- by Yoda's own admission -- far deadlier than Makashi (though not as efficient as Makashi in swordplay).

Minus that, however, I have some problems with the mentality you've subscribed to:

He is a man who has completely mastered the lightsaber, whom managed to duel with Yoda. Who in fact dueled Mace Windu to a stand still (Obsessions).

First, you yourself have stated on numerous occasions that Dooku was essentially a distraction at best for Yoda. I've already established ad infinitum that Yoda's goal at Geonosis was to capture Count Dooku (he explicitly instructs Windu that "Captured, Dooku must be, before more systems he rallies to his cause) and is best demonstrated when he abandons the lightsaber duel with the Count to save the lives of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, despite telling Kenobi in Revenge of the Sith that a "true Jedi" would have sacrificed Kenobi (or any other Jedi) if it brought the war to end "an hour sooner". Moreover, despite the fact that Vjun empowered the Count's already formidable Force powers and bladework, he was unable to defeat Yoda in single combat, even though Yoda was still attempting to bring the Count in alive and redeem him ("Wish to hurt you, I do not!"😉. Essentially, for all of Dooku's legendary prowess, had Yoda attacked him as he did his master, Darth Sidious, the Count would have been blitzed.

Originally posted by Dr. Styles
Cin Drallig himeself was a complete master of the lightsaber, whom would also give Mace a far good duel had they ever fight.

You may tell me where being a "complete master of the lightsaber" = "capable of giving Windu a fair duel". Especially since you're being completely speculative and not bothering to source your assertions. This doesn't cut it, AC, and you know it.

I'm sorry kiddo but the Clone Wars feats are purposely exaggerated and cannot be taken as fact, as Mace for one, could he perform all these ridicules moves why didn't he destroy all those droids on Geonosis, he would have saved the slaughter of some 200 Jedi. Furthermore its inconsistent with his power portrayal in the novel Shatterpoint where he whines about his lack of ability in the force. Where he could even lift a land crawler with the force. Not to mention was completely overpowered by Kar Vastor in the force. And the novel over rides a cartoon which purposely exaggerates Mace's power beyond belief.

And if Anakin Skywalker were truly the most powerful Jedi Knights ever -- or even one of -- why was he unable to overpower Kenobi with not only his lightsaber, but with a Force push? And if Sidious or Mace or Dooku or Kenobi or Anakin or Yoda were truly incredible duelists, among the best ever, why have they all not moved beyond what the eye can see? Why did Sidious and Mace, especially, fought so incredibly slow in their duel in Palpatine's office? I can use the same logic that you do, and while you do make a good point, the movies and EU are full of discrepencies and continuity errors. As Nai has pointed out before, George Lucas praised the feats portrayed in Clone Wars and testified that therein lies how he "imagine(s) real Jedi would be like."

Due to PIS and finite budget, obviously, such feats are not seen in the movies. Are we to ignore them, then?

I'm sorry but rank and power are not in correlation, as its not dictated by "who beats who in a fight" or "whos stronger then who" as if that was then Anakin should have his spot and be encroaching on Yoda's spot in the Jedi order

Windu was one of two senior members of the Jedi High Council and described as being "on par with the venerable Yoda". He's number two in the Order, AC, you need to accept that and move on.

Acoording to who? Nick Gillard? Um who gives a flying f*ck what Nick Gillard thinks. He's a stunt/sword fight coordinator, he's not George Lucas and he is not a representative of LFL, and those stupid power levels have never been endorsed or supported in any other medium by LFL. So ah no moron. Not to say that Drallig anyways as the force comes into play and he's decimate Drallig with the force. However someone like Anakin Skywalker could go toe to toe with Sidious, as well as Dooku, Dooku would in all likely hood die, but both can still compete with him.

The last bit confuses me, AC. Go toe-to-toe with Sidious in what? Swordsmanship? As far as pure skills, sure. In Force prowess? Hardly.

A>B so A>C = [B]FAIL.[/B]

In the vague manner in which he used it, I agree. But the exact circumstances are not. Windu was able to defeat Sidious in single combat due to the shatterpoint charism and the metaphysical properties of Vaapad that are especially deadly to those with a dark side allegiance. Dooku's not a flawless duelist and possesses the same allegiance and a weaker mastery of it than Sidious. While he is arguably equal or superior to Windu in terms of pure skills with a blade, there is nothing to suggest that he could overcome Windu in a lightsaber duel, and heaps of evidence to the contrary.

Nuff said that your a doofus.

He certainly could have presented his argument a lot better, but doofus is entirely out of fashion.

Nay.

Mace crushing Grievous chest is not an impressive feat, as you know: Grievous is not force sensitive, and can't counter force attacks. Lets see Mace do that to a force user, oh wait...

Force crushing duranium armor that "can stop a starfighter's laser canon" (Revenge of the Sith novelization, pg. 92) is certainly an impressive feat.

Anakin is "the strongest, fastest, most powerful Jedi of his generation perhaps of any generation" (ROTS Novel) He managed to crush Count Dooku in 12 seconds a feat not even Yoda can lay claim too,he managed to turn Dooku's lightsaber mastery, force power, knowledge of the force, and vast prestige and wealth into a "complete joke".

"Can lay claim to"? No. He most certainly could have claimed it. Did he? No. But those are two totally separate things.

In his duel with Dooku Anakin's decisions in the force became reality, he simply decides Dooku should lose his arms, and it happens. Not to mention that Durge a 2000 year old battle hardened mercenary whose faced Jedi, Sith and Mandalorians and calls Anakin the "fastest he's ever seen."

Agreed and I propose no argument there.

And even more-so Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader states that Anakin knows "all forms of combat." So Vaapad won't be the be all end all that decides this, Anakin has more then the necessary speed, power, skill and combat experience to stand against Vaapad, the form.

"All forms of combat" =/= Vaapad. According to the Essential Guide to the Force, Sora Bulq's fall from grace prompted Windu to direct that all those who wish to learn Vaapad must receive explicit permission, assessment, and training from Windu himself. Anakin received no such things. Moreover, Emperor Palpatine's swordplay was only equal to Windu's Vaapad. Darth Vader is not, in any single way imaginable, equal to Darth Sidious. He's not as fast and he's not as powerful. You'll need more than that to prove that he could match Vaapad.

Its super-conducting loop, wouldn't necessarily benefit Mace as he'd have the rage of the chosen one in full effect bearing down on him a mans whose raw fury was enough for his decisions become reality in the force. Whose to say that the loop will go on forever, it was never fully tested with Sidious as Mace found the shatterpoint and cause him to slip, and the duel itself is even suspect as there is ample evidence of Sidious throwing the whole thing. He knew Anakin was coming, he fell just in time for Anakin to see him defenseless cornered by a big bad black Jedi. Sidious avoids the killing blow with Mace in the movie.

This is an entirely separate argument. Lucas says Windu overpowered Palpatine and anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation bears the burden of proof; the novelization nor script make any mention of Sidious's restraint during the lightsaber duel.

I say you fail.

Fail

FAIL.

A stamp we can apply to a great deal of your own argument, sir.

Originally posted by Kotor3
One thing that should be straighten out, Anakin is not and never was the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his time. Potential and is are two very different things.

Anakin could have but never did or was. Yoda was the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his era. Second to Yoda is Mace. Now you can argue who is third and fourth.


"Once the most powerful Jedi Knight ever known to the Jedi Order, he is now a disciple of the dark side, a lord of the dreaded Sith, and the avenging right hand of the galaxy's ruthless new Emperor." - RoDV

[i]At the time of RoTS, Anakin is the most powerful, but OB1 just has more experience." - George Lucas, RoTS DVD special featurette.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
"Once the most powerful Jedi Knight ever known to the Jedi Order, he is now a disciple of the dark side, a lord of the dreaded Sith, and the avenging right hand of the galaxy's ruthless new Emperor." - RoDV

[i]At the time of RoTS, Anakin is the most powerful, but OB1 just has more experience." - George Lucas, RoTS DVD special featurette.

We know Anakin when it comes to raw force power is the most powerful force user ever known to star wars. So I take my statement of power back however please see below.

Please notice the full statement: “One thing that should be straighten out, Anakin is not and never was the strongest, fastest, and most powerful Jedi of his time”.

So if Anakin is the most powerful he definitely was not the strongest or fastest.

Power can reside some where and not be fully developed or unleashed. Anakin had the most force power but never unleashed it in full, never developed it to the fullest capacity.

So he never exceed Mace or Yoda’s strength in the force or (capacity to use your given force ability to the full). He was not faster than them either due to his undeveloped power in the force.

Strength and power are not the same. Strength uses ones power. How much it uses depends on how much is developed.

So then you're speaking on his mastery of the force then, not power. Correct? He still has more power than them, he just doesn't have the control, or mastery, over it. And like it was said, Durge said he was the fastest he'd ever scene, who, like also mentioned, has seen more Jedi than we can count.

That's all though. Just wanted to point that out.

So, if you say, Gideon, that the Count's skills with the blade are equal or possibly better than Mace's, do you believe Anakin (light side) could defeat Mace in a duel?

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
So, if you say, Gideon, that the Count's skills with the blade are equal or possibly better than Mace's, do you believe Anakin (light side) could defeat Mace in a duel?

Quite possibly.

I thought I was the only one who believed Anakin might beat Mace in a fair fight.