Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
I thought I was the only one who believed Anakin might beat Mace in a fair fight.
I said "possibly". Windu's strength is prodigious and well beyond anything that Count Dooku was vulnerable to, though Anakin's strength is -- judging from the novel -- equally superhuman beyond Jedi norm.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I always thought he could beat Mace too. Just depends on the circumstances. I think it's safe to say that Anakin's strength is rather prodigious too. I know you mentioned that, just saying.
I really do not see how Anakin could take Mace at all. Every uses the excuse that Obi Wan new Anakin and that is why he defeated him. Anakin new Obi Wan just as well.
Also the clone war movie is coming out tomorrow so it is canon. I'm sure it will show Mace to be more powerful than he is perceived.
Yes, also I am referring to Mastery of the Force. Power is there but is not master so it cannot produce the max strength that exist. It is just like excerising. The more you train yourself in a certian era the stronger you become.
With that in mind no matter how powerful Anakin is I see Mace not taking a long time at all to dispose of Anakin in a one on one situation.
Originally posted by Jbill311
How come the Clone war movie is cannon when Anakin has an apprentice? In ROTS he wasn't a master yet. I did ask this in the TV show forum, but no one goes there.
You don't have to be a master to train a Padawan, take Obi-Wan for example he wasn't a master at the end of TPM but Anakin is still his apprentice.Hope that helped
Originally posted by Kotor3At the time of RoTS, Anakin could take pretty much anyone. Also, I don't think it's been confirmed the level of canon that this will be.
I really do not see how Anakin could take Mace at all. Every uses the excuse that Obi Wan new Anakin and that is why he defeated him. Anakin new Obi Wan just as well.Also the clone war movie is coming out tomorrow so it is canon. I'm sure it will show Mace to be more powerful than he is perceived.
Yes, also I am referring to Mastery of the Force. Power is there but is not master so it cannot produce the max strength that exist. It is just like excerising. The more you train yourself in a certian era the stronger you become.
With that in mind no matter how powerful Anakin is I see Mace not taking a long time at all to dispose of Anakin in a one on one situation.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
At the time of RoTS, Anakin could take pretty much anyone. Also, I don't think it's been confirmed the level of canon that this will be.
How is that statement true. No way in hell could Anakin have taken Yoda, Mace, or Sidious in an all out fight. He lost to Obi remember.
Jedi in existence who is "Dooku's equal" on neutral ground. However, while Dooku's expertise with a lightsaber and experience in combat is arguably equal to Windu's, his Sith allegiance and association with the dark side makes him especially vulnerable to the shatterpoint charism and the metaphysical properties of Vaapad, a form which Dooku is not a master of, and which is -- by Yoda's own admission -- far deadlier than Makashi (though not as efficient as Makashi in swordplay).
Thanks to Sora Bluq, Dooku does have a working knowledge of Vaapad, to the point where he can fight with Mace Windu on even ground to a standstill (Obsessions) 3 months prior to ROTS, Sora was in all practicality a Vaapad ( of the lightsaber aspect of the form) and Dooku knew of the ins and outs of the style, just as he taunts Windu how his style "skirts the dark side." And really Dooku mauled a Vaapad master in Sora Bluq AND Tholme at the same time, Vaapads leetness won't really affect Dooku.
First, you yourself have stated on numerous occasions that Dooku was essentially a distraction at best for Yoda. I've already established ad infinitum that Yoda's goal at Geonosis was to capture Count Dooku (he explicitly instructs Windu that "Captured, Dooku must be, before more systems he rallies to his cause) and is best demonstrated when he abandons the lightsaber duel with the Count to save the lives of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, despite telling Kenobi in Revenge of the Sith that a "true Jedi" would have sacrificed Kenobi (or any other Jedi) if it brought the war to end "an hour sooner". Moreover, despite the fact that Vjun empowered the Count's already formidable Force powers and bladework, he was unable to defeat Yoda in single combat, even though Yoda was still attempting to bring the Count in alive and redeem him ("Wish to hurt you, I do not!"😉. Essentially, for all of Dooku's legendary prowess, had Yoda attacked him as he did his master, Darth Sidious, the Count would have been blitzed.
"Love you enough to kill you I do Dooku."
Besides:
I never said he'd win I just said he could fight against Yoda which he would, he'd get crushed eventually in an all out assault from Yoda, but he'd at least fend him off for a couple seconds enough for it not to be a complete embarrassment like it was with Skywalker.
You may tell me where being a "complete master of the lightsaber" = "capable of giving Windu a fair duel". Especially since you're being completely speculative and not bothering to source your assertions. This doesn't cut it, AC, and you know it.
He was the orders battlemaster, he taught lightsaber combat, that alone is enough to assume he has an atleast master level in the forms as he was entrusted to teach Jedi the upper levels of their self defense, I don't have any sources with me anymore so feel free to show me I'm wrong. Mind you a fair duel to me = not a decapitation within 2 seconds ie: being pwnd like Kit Fisto. I'm saying he'd probably last longer then that.
And if Anakin Skywalker were truly the most powerful Jedi Knights ever -- or even one of -- why was he unable to overpower Kenobi with not only his lightsaber, but with a Force push? And if Sidious or Mace or Dooku or Kenobi or Anakin or Yoda were truly incredible duelists, among the best ever, why have they all not moved beyond what the eye can see? Why did Sidious and Mace, especially, fought so incredibly slow in their duel in Palpatine's office? I can use the same logic that you do, and while you do make a good point, the movies and EU are full of discrepencies and continuity errors. As Nai has pointed out before, George Lucas praised the feats portrayed in Clone Wars and testified that therein lies how he "imagine(s) real Jedi would be like."Due to PIS and finite budget, obviously, such feats are not seen in the movies. Are we to ignore them, then?
As I said: whatever, do to Dooku, Yoda and arguably Anakin all having superior feats in the show as Crimzon pointed out, it serves to prove my point either way, so ah I don't really care.
Windu was one of two senior members of the Jedi High Council and described as being "on par with the venerable Yoda". He's number two in the Order, AC, you need to accept that and move on.
That wasn't my point, it was rank =/= power, that he happened to be arguably the second best next to Yoda in terms of overall skill (Skywalker and Kenobi are close runners up) is just a plus. Look at Jacen, he was the second strongest Jedi in the NJO but he's not even on the council. As for the quote; Kar Vastor isn't Mace or Yoda, and if his complete manhandling of Mace is any indication he'd be able to take on Sidious, under the right conditions. I'm saying that someone with the power of say Dooku would be able to take on Sidious, though he'd probably lose, it won't be like a Kit Fisto loss.
The last bit confuses me, AC. Go toe-to-toe with Sidious in what? Swordsmanship? As far as pure skills, sure. In Force prowess? Hardly.
See above. Only Anakin would have slightly more success due to his sheer power/skill.
In the vague manner in which he used it, I agree. But the exact circumstances are not. Windu was able to defeat Sidious in single combat due to the shatterpoint charism and the metaphysical properties of Vaapad that are especially deadly to those with a dark side allegiance. Dooku's not a flawless duelist and possesses the same allegiance and a weaker mastery of it than Sidious. While he is arguably equal or superior to Windu in terms of pure skills with a blade, there is nothing to suggest that he could overcome Windu in a lightsaber duel, and heaps of evidence to the contrary.
How bout the fact that they fight to a standstill 3 months before ROTS. I'd say they're pretty even, especially given that Dooku is familiar with Mace's style.
orce crushing duranium armor that "can stop a starfighter's laser canon" (Revenge of the Sith novelization, pg. 92) is certainly an impressive feat
Now lets see him do that to a force user who can you know: defend the attack...oh wait...the only time we see him using the force to take on anther force sensitive he gets tossed around like a rag doll by Vastor.
"Can lay claim to"? No. He most certainly could have claimed it. Did he? No. But those are two totally separate things.
Ok.
"All forms of combat" =/= Vaapad. According to the Essential Guide to the Force, Sora Bulq's fall from grace prompted Windu to direct that all those who wish to learn Vaapad must receive explicit permission, assessment, and training from Windu himself. Anakin received no such things. Moreover, Emperor Palpatine's swordplay was only equal to Windu's Vaapad. Darth Vader is not, in any single way imaginable, equal to Darth Sidious. He's not as fast and he's not as powerful. You'll need more than that to prove that he could match Vaapad.
My bad, I meant to specify that he DIDN'T know Vaapad, but forgot. My point was that Anakin has enough skill and experience to not be overwhelmed by Vaapad the form.
This is an entirely separate argument. Lucas says Windu overpowered Palpatine and anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation bears the burden of proof; the novelization nor script make any mention of Sidious's restraint during the lightsaber duel.
Ok.
A stamp we can apply to a great deal of your own argument, sir.
Um, not really.
Originally posted by Dr. Styles
Thanks to Sora Bluq, Dooku does have a working knowledge of Vaapad, to the point where he can fight with Mace Windu on even ground to a standstill (Obsessions) 3 months prior to ROTS, Sora was in all practicality a Vaapad ( of the lightsaber aspect of the form) and Dooku knew of the ins and outs of the style, just as he taunts Windu how his style "skirts the dark side."
Where has it been confirmed that Count Dooku has a "working knowledge" of Vaapad? Furthermore, Sora Bulq's legendary skills with a lightsaber notwithstanding, it is painfully evident that he did not master Vaapad. According to Windu's musings in Revenge of the Sith, Vaapad is more than a fighting style, it's a state of mind. Of Sora Bulq, Windu concluded: "He did not master Vaapad. Vaapad mastered him." Not at all the same thing. As far as Dooku versus Windu is concerned, where did you get "standstill" from? He sparred with him for a few strikes and had Magnaguards ambush Windu so Dooku could escape. Hardly the behavior of someone who is truly confident of victory and who mentioned that he would deal with the Jedi on Boz Pity. Dooku sure changed his mind all of a sudden.
And really Dooku mauled a Vaapad master in Sora Bluq AND Tholme at the same time, Vaapads leetness won't really affect Dooku.
Bullshit, AC. As established, Bulq's a beast, but he didn't master Vaapad. We can also use your copyrighted brand of logic and point out that Dooku was somehow unable to to replicate the same feat with Windu. Could it be, perhaps, Windu is greater than Tholme and Bulq?
"Love you enough to kill you I do Dooku."
"Wish to hurt you, I do not." Yoda clearly wasn't out for blood. If he attacked Dooku like he attacked Sidious, Dooku would be a gigantic bloostain on the floor.
Besides:I never said he'd win I just said he could fight against Yoda which he would, he'd get crushed eventually in an all out assault from Yoda, but he'd at least fend him off for a couple seconds enough for it not to be a complete embarrassment like it was with Skywalker.
A complete embarrassment? Only when Skywalker reached his vaunted state-of-mind, AC. You don't get to edit the duel where we conveniently misplace the two minutes beforehand where Dooku pitted himself well against Kenobi and Skywalker.
He was the orders battlemaster, he taught lightsaber combat, that alone is enough to assume he has an atleast master level in the forms as he was entrusted to teach Jedi the upper levels of their self defense, I don't have any sources with me anymore so feel free to show me I'm wrong. Mind you a fair duel to me = not a decapitation within 2 seconds ie: being pwnd like Kit Fisto. I'm saying he'd probably last longer then that.
"Upper level" =/= "on the level of Mace Windu". What the hell is this, man? I guess the entirety of the Jedi Council is on par with Yoda, then.
As I said: whatever, do to Dooku, Yoda and arguably Anakin all having superior feats in the show as Crimzon pointed out, it serves to prove my point either way, so ah I don't really care.
A consession, thank you.
That wasn't my point, it was rank =/= power, that he happened to be arguably the second best next to Yoda in terms of overall skill (Skywalker and Kenobi are close runners up) is just a plus. Look at Jacen, he was the second strongest Jedi in the NJO but he's not even on the council. As for the quote; Kar Vastor isn't Mace or Yoda, and if his complete manhandling of Mace is any indication he'd be able to take on Sidious, under the right conditions.
LOL. Whoa, whoa, whoa. So, let me get this straight. You're telling me that Kar Vastor could take on Sidious even though, according to a witness between Vastor versus Mace, Vastor wouldn't stand a chance against Vader? I'm going to have to go back through the hierarchy again. Let's get this one straight. Darth Sidious's mastery of the Force far surpasses Anakin Skywalker's or Darth Vader's. It's not close. According to a source that you accept, Vastor wouldn't stand a chance against Vader. So how could he take on Sidious, again? Answer: it's not. Sidious, Yoda, and Anakin in raw potency are leagues above Vastor.
I'm saying that someone with the power of say Dooku would be able to take on Sidious, though he'd probably lose, it won't be like a Kit Fisto loss.
The same Count Dooku who, despite having an army numbering in the trillions, a powerful assortment of dark side adepts, and was a prodigious master of the Force himself... was absolutely terrified of Darth Sidious? I rather doubt it.
See above. Only Anakin would have slightly more success due to his sheer power/skill.
Again, I'm confused. Are we talking lightsaber skills or Force prowess? You never really clarified.
How bout the fact that they fight to a standstill 3 months before ROTS. I'd say they're pretty even, especially given that Dooku is familiar with Mace's style.
Except a few strikes =/= a duel, you haven't told me where Dooku's knowledge of Vaapad is so uber, and you have failed to take into consideration: a.) Mace's shatterpoint charism, b.) the metaphysical properties of Vaapad versus dark siders, c.) the fact that Dooku, despite proclaiming "[he] would handle the Jedi", has Magnaguards ambush Windu.
Now lets see him do that to a force user who can you know: defend the attack...oh wait...the only time we see him using the force to take on anther force sensitive he gets tossed around like a rag doll by Vastor.
You said it wasn't impressive. I said it was, not that he'd be able to replicate the feat on a Force user.
Ok.
A concession, then? Excellent.
My bad, I meant to specify that he DIDN'T know Vaapad, but forgot. My point was that Anakin has enough skill and experience to not be overwhelmed by Vaapad the form.
Understandable. A concession, then? Thank you.
Ok.
Another concession, all right.
Um, not really.
Yes, really. Four concessions? I don't know if you're sick or what, but most of your argument is total speculation i.e. Cin Drallig was a battlemaster and a "complete master of the lightsaber" = "on par with Mace Windu". Then we have real treats like "Kar Vastor could take on Sidious" even though you've accepted and been overjoyed at the source that made it clear Vastor wouldn't stand a chance against Vader. What the hell, dude? Not your finest hour.
Originally posted by skywalker833If Anakin hadn't jumped, Obi-Wan wouldn't have dismembered him. It wasn't due to Kenobi's superior skills or martial prowess.
SITUATIONAL!? Prove it. And Obi-wan beat him because of his experience and his smarts. Sure Anakin was blinded by rage, but obi wan would have won either way.
Anakin > Obi-Wan. However, Obi-Wan is smarter, more experienced, and has an inside knowledge of all of Anakin's moves and psychological weaknesses, the former theoretically giving him a stalemate when it comes to blade-to-blade abilities, and the latter, combined with his tactical prowess, will mean that he will likely reach a tactical advantage and defeat Anakin if they ever fought again.
Still, Anakin is (easily) capable of feats Obi-Wan could never accomplish, such as utterly tooling Count Dooku, who Obi-Wan could, at best, stalemate in saber combat abilities (and I believe that Dooku > Obi-Wan, anyway, both in the force and in saber combat). Nick Gillard also confirms this, by calling Anakin a '9' and Obi-Wan an '8'. The fact that Anakin's saber abilities are greater than Obi-Wan's is canonical fact and cannot be argued.