ROTS Obi Wan & Anakin vs ROTS Mace

Originally posted by Kotor3
You can't we don't know if Mace could but you cannot say he can't. Dooku lighting is nothing in comparison to Sidious.

Originally posted by Kotor3
The point is Mace did not win purely on his skills with a Saber. That is impossible. His strength in the force allowed him to compete or be able to stand against Sidious. Just as Dooku was able to do against Yoda even though Yoda was not trying to hurt him.

Originally posted by Kotor3
As for the ploy, if Anakin never came I do believe that Sidious might have been able to power his way with the force or make an escape by using the force. Would he have defeated Mace no one knows?

Originally posted by Kotor3
It is my opinion, it is nothing to prove except for the fact that I gave an example as to why I felt this way. Mace could defeat Sidious and did, Dooku could not.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes it is a testament. Side note, I never like the fact that Dooku was able to do that to Obi Wan at the stage in Obi Wan's career. Bad scripting to put Anakin in a one on one situation with Dooku.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes it does. His abilities are impressive but Dooku was not powerful enough to defeat Anakin at that stage of Anakin's development.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Once again I cannot argue this since I never heard of this quote before. Still does not prove that Anakin could defeat Mace when he could not Obi Wan.

Advent: If he said that Mace could block lightning, then its up to him to prove it. If he says he can and then I say he can't, he can't tell me to prove that he can't. He made the assertion. And I still love you. 😛

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If you can't prove that he can, then you can't use that scenario. And I realize that you read Advent's post before posting, and while its true that Dooku is not on Sidious' level, it's still a powerful attack by an extremely powerful Sith Lord. If he generated the lightning to begin with (Dooku that is) then it only stands to reason that he can block it or deflect it once Yoda sent it back to him. It's his force attack.

I did not read her post, was writing mines. But that is alright because your post are full of assumptions. Fine we won't use it but you cannot say he does not have the ability. Advent provide a good but which you tried to address.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I
Yes he did. He is nowhere near the same level as Sidious, force wise. Vaapad was the only reason he got as far as he did. After being knocked down, he was acting tired and hurt for Anakin's sake. That's been proven. And its not the same as Yoda and Dooku cause as you said, Yoda wasn't trying to hurt him. Mace, who's form allows him to trad dangerously close to the dark side and enjoy the fight, was trying to kill Sidious.

You are missing the whole point which is evident by your responses. What are saber skills without use of the force. As was stated Mace was not the only user of Vaapad. Other users of Vaapad could not take down Sidious but Mace did. Get it he was powerful in the force which amplified his skills and abilities to a great degree.

How great? He was able to stand up to Sidious and defeat his in saber combat and resist his force lighting.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

If Anakin never came in, then he never would have been in that situation. If he was blasting him with lightning to the point that Mace was almost unable to control it, then all he would have to do is push him out the window. The point of being in a vulnerable position was to show Anakin that "the Jedi are taking over." Without him showing up, there would be no point in doing that. Mace would have been pwned by the Sith's most powerful Lord.

Oh, look another one of your assumptions. At least I state when I am putting in my opinions.

First of all, Anakin was already there when Sidious unleash his force lighting. Second, he was defeated before Anakin came in. Sidious took a chance that Anakin would help him if he did not, then Mace and Anakin would have killed him.

If you watch the scene closely Sidious only let down his guard and started pleading for his life when he saw Anakin pleading with Mace to let him live.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

Opinions don't really mean shit around here. Mace beat him in saber combat, not the force. And when did Dooku even try to fight Sidious? Or what are you talking about?

Then stop including yours. You are confusing yourself. Dooku never did because he new what the outcome would be. Point Dooku would get pwned by Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

Uh, that was the point, to get Anakin in that 1v1 situation.

I am starting to forget would you are even arguing here. Simple point is he lost to Anakin. He was able to stand up for a while, he used the force and droids to assist and in the end die.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

You obviously missed the point of that fight. The point was that Anakin had become that powerful that Dooku's skills and abilities became "a joke." That still has nothing to do with the fact that he pwned OB1 with the force and has even less to do with Mace's abilities.

No I understand quite clear it is you who do not. You cannot prove that Anakin could do the same to Mace. Mace could defeat everyone Anakin and Dooku defeated. Anakin and Dooku could not defeat Sidious. Simple!

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

Go watch the movie with the commentary. He COULD beat OB1! He just didn't in that particular instance. I don't know how many times we have to say that. Anakin, with a saber, could beat virtually anyone at this point in time. Vaapad won't help and Shatterpoint is good, but you have to be able to exploit and hit that mark. Anakin is just that good that it would prove extremely difficult for Mace to do that.

Maybe Anakin can. He can surely compete with them. No argument. But fights do not just include saber combat. We are talking about an all out fight.

I have to go. Catch later.

I know, Subjekt. I was just trying to say that a negative is provable (some are not, but that's not true for all statements).

And I still love you.

Good, you have appeased the goddess for this month. 😆 BTW, do you still have a problem with your avatar? Or did "avi" mean something completely different?

Originally posted by Kotor3
I did not read her post, was writing mines. But that is alright because your post are full of assumptions. Fine we won't use it but you cannot say he does not have the ability. Advent provide a good but which you tried to address.

You are missing the whole point which is evident by your responses. What are saber skills without use of the force. As was stated Mace was not the only user of Vaapad. Other users of Vaapad could not take down Sidious but Mace did. Get it he was powerful in the force which amplified his skills and abilities to a great degree.

How great? He was able to stand up to Sidious and defeat his in saber combat and resist his force lighting.

Oh, look another one of your assumptions. At least I state when I am putting in my opinions.

First of all, Anakin was already there when Sidious unleash his force lighting. Second, he was defeated before Anakin came in. Sidious took a chance that Anakin would help him if he did not, then Mace and Anakin would have killed him.

If you watch the scene closely Sidious only let down his guard and started pleading for his life when he saw Anakin pleading with Mace to let him live.

Then stop including yours. You are confusing yourself. Dooku never did because he new what the outcome would be. Point Dooku would get pwned by Sidious.

I am starting to forget would you are even arguing here. Simple point is he lost to Anakin. He was able to stand up for a while, he used the force and droids to assist and in the end die.

No I understand quite clear it is you who do not. You cannot prove that Anakin could do the same to Mace. Mace could defeat everyone Anakin and Dooku defeated. Anakin and Dooku could not defeat Sidious. Simple!

Maybe Anakin can. He can surely compete with them. No argument. But fights do not just include saber combat. We are talking about an all out fight.

I have to go. Catch later.

1. I can say that he can't because you have yet to prove that he can.

2. What are saber skills without the force?.... SABER SKILLS! You answered your own question. He's also the only Vaapad master to face Sidious, so you don't know what would have happened. One couldn't master it and the other never faced Sidious.

3. What assumption? He would have killed Mace if Anakin hadn't shown up. Plain and simple. And the force push is a perfectly reasonable action for the most powerful Sith Lord to take.

4. I'm not. MACE DID NOT AND COULD NOT BEAT SIDIOUS WITH THE FORCE! There is NO disputing that. Do you understand? And what does Dooku fighting Sidious have to do with anything? A>B>C arguments don't mean shit either. Watch, Dooku beat OB1, Anakin embarrassed Dooku, and OB1 beat Anakin. Do you see how that works? Just cause A can beat C and B can't, doesn't mean that A automatically beats B. That's idiotic to assume so.

5. Simple point is that if he engaged Anakin in a force battle, Anakin would have lost and lost badly. But in sabers, even as great as Dooku is, Anakin was better. Again, that's not to show Dooku as weak, but it's meant to show how powerful Anakin is.

6. In pure saber battle, Anakin could beat just about everyone. Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Ob1, Dooku... he could beat almost anyone. That's how good he is. "The most powerful Jedi Knight ever known to the Order." Prove Mace and Sidious can beat him in a saber fight.

7.If Anakin jumps in your shit with his saber, most people won't be able to stall long enough to fire off a force attack.

Advent,

Yea, I just can't figure out how to change it from the one i have now. It won't let me. 🙁

Also, if its not too much trouble, and since have more source material, can you explain to him Dooku's force power level, and Anakin's skill level with a blade? If not, that's fine too.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
1. I can say that he can't because you have yet to prove that he can.[/B]

You cannot prove that Mace can't so your statement is good because I cannot prove he can. Wrong! It becomes an unknown until one of the statements is proven true.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
2. What are saber skills without the force?.... SABER SKILLS! You answered your own question. He's also the only Vaapad master to face Sidious, so you don't know what would have happened. One couldn't master it and the other never faced Sidious.[/B]

I do not even know what to say about your statement above except that it is either silly or ignorant.

I do not know one force user who wields his saber without using the force. The force will enhance the wielder's abilities with there saber. The more powerful the force user the more enhance they will be in their saber skills.

It was amazing for Ulic to wield his saber and defend against a force user who was attacking with there saber when he no longer could use the force. Are you saying that force users fight with there light sabers without using the force and rely purely on skills?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
3. What assumption? He would have killed Mace if Anakin hadn't shown up. Plain and simple. And the force push is a perfectly reasonable action for the most powerful Sith Lord to take.[/B]

How is it that your statement is fact that Mace would have been killed by Sidious if Anakin never came? You are speculating which does not count here. Mace already blocked his force lighting and defeated him in a saber fight.

So tell me why wouldn't Mace be able to block the force push? You need to stop quoting as if you are George Lucas.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
4. I'm not. MACE DID NOT AND COULD NOT BEAT SIDIOUS WITH THE FORCE! There is NO disputing that. Do you understand? And what does Dooku fighting Sidious have to do with anything? A>B>C arguments don't mean shit either. Watch, Dooku beat OB1, Anakin embarrassed Dooku, and OB1 beat Anakin. Do you see how that works? Just cause A can beat C and B can't, doesn't mean that A automatically beats B. That's idiotic to assume so.[/B]

No one ever said that Mace could defeat Sidious in a force fight. I am starting to think that it is you who have a grammar problem or reading comprehension.

I said stand up to due to Mace being a powerful force user. He was able to stand up to Sidious in a saber battle and block force attacks. That proves that Mace is indeed a powerful force user.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
5. Simple point is that if he engaged Anakin in a force battle, Anakin would have lost and lost badly. But in sabers, even as great as Dooku is, Anakin was better. Again, that's not to show Dooku as weak, but it's meant to show how powerful Anakin is.[/B]

So Dooku is stupid and did not use his advantage? Another assumption! You are speculating that Anakin would not be able to resist or block Dooku's force attacks.

Simply, Anakin was to powerful for Dooku and Dooku's force attacks would not take Anakin down.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
6. In pure saber battle, Anakin could beat just about everyone. Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Ob1, Dooku... he could beat almost anyone. That's how good he is. "The most powerful Jedi Knight ever known to the Order." Prove Mace and Sidious can beat him in a saber fight.[/B]

Another assumption. I do not have to prove anything you prove that he can defeat anybody in saber fight. Let me guess because of the statement most powerful. Well then Sidious should have defeated Mace is a saber fight. Anakin should have beaten Obi Wan. The most powerful does not always win neither does it mean that Anakin would be able to defeat a well discipline fighter in a saber fight such as Mace or Yoda. His lost to Obi Wan is an example of that.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If Anakin jumps in your shit with his saber, most people won't be able to stall long enough to fire off a force attack.[/B]

See response above.

Darth Subjekt you talk as if your grammar is really good. I take the time to try to understand what you are responding to. I post most of the time when I am at work and do not check my statements all the time. What is your execuse?

Originally posted by Kotor3
You cannot prove that Mace can't so your statement is good because I cannot prove he can. Wrong! It becomes an unknown until one of the statements is proven true.

So Dooku is stupid and did not use his advantage? Another assumption! You are speculating that Anakin would not be able to resist or block Dooku's force attacks.

Simply, Anakin was to powerful for Dooku and Dooku's force attacks would not take Anakin down.

Quite simply, no. Had Dooku utilized his offensive Force powers to their fullest extent, he would have dominated Skywalker like he did Obi-Wan. As it is, Anakin got knocked on his ass by a simple kick from the Count, who then proceeded to pointlessly drop a balcony on his fallen foe instead of frying/choking/tossing Anakin himself.

Faunus! When'd you get back?

Originally posted by Kotor3
You cannot prove that Mace can't so your statement is good because I cannot prove he can. Wrong! It becomes an unknown until one of the statements is proven true.

so in that case Obi1, Anakin and all the jedis can possibly block FL until its proven that they cant??!! no thats silly. he cant do it until theres some evidence to suggest that he can.

and looking at his fight with Sidious, when he was really struggling to block his lightning with the help of his lightsaber, its reasonable to assume that if he could block FL with his hands then he would have tried. but the fact was without his lightsaber he had absolutely no defence against FL.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I do not know one force user who wields his saber without using the force. The force will enhance the wielder's abilities with there saber. The more powerful the force user the more enhance they will be in their saber skills.

using the Force to enhance your lightsaber skills is a different skill to using the force to do force attacks. hence Dookus line in AOTC "clearly this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.."

Originally posted by Kotor3
How is it that your statement is fact that Mace would have been killed by Sidious if Anakin never came? You are speculating which does not count here. Mace already blocked his force lighting and defeated him in a saber fight.

So tell me why wouldn't Mace be able to block the force push?

1. He needed his lightsaber to block FL. his lightsaber would be useless against a Force push.

2. Sidious was simply more powerful than Mace and more knowledgable in the Force.

3. If Kar Vastor can throw Mace around like a ragdoll with the Force, what do you think the most powerful sith lord in history could do to him with the force???

Originally posted by Kotor3
So Dooku is stupid and did not use his advantage? Another assumption! You are speculating that Anakin would not be able to resist or block Dooku's force attacks.

according to Nick Gillard Dooku was overconfident that he could beat anakin. so by the time he realised what he was up against it was too late to use his advantages against Anakin.

we saw in the animated movie, that even though Anakin could match Dooku with Sabers, he was outclassed with the force. not to mention that even by ROTS he culdnt even overpower Obi1 with the Force!!!

Originally posted by Kotor3

I never disagreed. You just supported my point. Anakin and Obi Wan were equals. Mace is not there equal but superior.

no uv misunderstood. they are equals only when fighting each other. beacuse they know each others moves so well.

when fighting a different opponent they are certainly not equals. Anakin is much more powerful. as we saw in their fight against Dooku. by defeating Dooku Anakin did something Obi1 could never do, and showed hes clearly Obi1s superior.

so again theres no proof Mace is Anakins superior in any way.

DARTH POWER we are not going to agree on this one. You are saying that logically your statements make sense which I do not agree with.

Your example of Dooku not using force attacks on Anakin but on Obi Wan is not a good one. Here is why, Anakin is not Obi Wan, as you stated and I agree Anakin is much more powerful in the force. In the ROTS novel I believe it was stated that Dooku soon realizes that Anakin was holding back during the saber battle and still Dooku could not counter with an offense.

Why did not Dooku use his force powers then as he saw he was being overpowered in a saber battle?

Power and strength are different. Power can reside in a place but not be developed or used. Strength is developed power, power that is trained and can be used.

Anakin's strength in the force was enough for him to stand up to Dooku. Anakin's power is what allowed him to overpower Dooku. As for Dooku arrogance, this is what would separate him from Mace a Jedi who would not display such weaknesses.

If you want to say that Anakin is as strong in the force as Mace as of ROTS, I disagree. He is more power but that power is undeveloped. If developed his strength would vastly exceed that of Mace's strength in the force.

Lastly, I do not agree and I already given the example of Ulic, a force user always uses the force with fighting even with sabers. Dooku is an old man and Yoda is old and short. Without the force please explain how they would have been able to fight the way they did in there encounter with each other.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Why did not Dooku use his force powers then as he saw he was being overpowered in a saber battle?

ROTS Novel: Anakin "in the zone" vs Dooku

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

Basically Anakin never gave Dooku the chance with an onslaught of attacks.

Originally posted by Kotor3

Why did not Dooku use his force powers then as he saw he was being overpowered in a saber battle?

it was too late by then.. he was being badly overpowered at that point. but as we saw in the movie he could have taken anakin earlier on in the fight when he kicked him onto his rear. if he uses his superior force skills earlier on in the fight then Dooku would certainly have a decent chance against anakin. but as the fight progresses anakin gets stronger, and harder to fend off.

also just out of interest in the novel after taunting anakin, dooku was able to fend off anakins attacks until palpatine intervened and gave anakin confidence in his abilities and "permission" to let lose. after that Elite Hunters passage comes into play.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Lastly, I do not agree and I already given the example of Ulic, a force user always uses the force with fighting even with sabers. Dooku is an old man and Yoda is old and short. Without the force please explain how they would have been able to fight the way they did in there encounter with each other.

of course they use the force to help them with saber fighting. iv already sed this. but their skills to use the force with sabers and without sabers are Different skills. every one on these boards agrees to that. thats why before each thread we have who wuld win 1. sabers, 2. force, 3. all out.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
it was too late by then.. he was being badly overpowered at that point. but as we saw in the movie he could have taken anakin earlier on in the fight when he kicked him onto his rear. if he uses his superior force skills earlier on in the fight then Dooku would certainly have a decent chance against anakin. but as the fight progresses anakin gets stronger, and harder to fend off.

also just out of interest in the novel after taunting anakin, dooku was able to fend off anakins attacks until palpatine intervened and gave anakin confidence in his abilities and "permission" to let lose. after that Elite Hunters passage comes into play.

I finally can I agree with your statements made above, DARTH POWER. I personally do not believe Dooku could have taken Anakin at all at this particular time in Anakin's growth as a jedi. He definitely would have had a better chance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
of course they use the force to help them with saber fighting. iv already sed this. but their skills to use the force with sabers and without sabers are Different skills. every one on these boards agrees to that. thats why before each thread we have who wuld win 1. sabers, 2. force, 3. all out. [/B]

Ok, I do not include saber battles without force in my threads because if Dooku did not use the force to enhance his skills with a saber, Anakin would destroy him due to there age difference. No competition at all.

This brings us back to Mace. Whereas Dooku was superior in force techniques not strength I say Mace is superior in his strength in the force not power.

Anakin was not developed enough to defeat somone such as Mace who's strength in the force or developed power exceeded that of Anakin's at the time.

Kotor3 when we say who wins in saber fighting, that includes their force enhanced strength, speed precision and reflexes to aid them in the saber fight.

also dnt underestimate dookus force enhanced strength. he was able to block simultaneous strikes by both Obi1 and Anakin with one arm.. and he kicks Anakin back quite far landing him on his rear.

not to mention in Dark Rendevouz Yoda calls Dooku the Strongest and Most Learned in the Force of all at the temple..

So im not sure where you get this idea that Mace is superior in Force Strength to Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kotor3 when we say who wins in saber fighting, that includes their force enhanced strength, speed precision and reflexes to aid them in the saber fight.

Darth Power you definitely confused me with your previous statements. It did not seem to me that you were stating that especially after I made the statement so many times. Ok, that is good to know.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
also dnt underestimate dookus force enhanced strength. he was able to block simultaneous strikes by both Obi1 and Anakin with one arm.. and he kicks Anakin back quite far landing him on his rear.

not to mention in Dark Rendevouz Yoda calls Dooku the Strongest and Most Learned in the Force of all at the temple..

So im not sure where you get this idea that Mace is superior in Force Strength to Dooku. [/B]

Here is my question, is Mace inferior or equal to Dooku when it comes to the force?

Kotor3, you are without a doubt one of the most ignorant people I've encountered on here. You don't listen, use poor logic, and then try to insult my grammar when you rattle off statements like, Why did not Dooku use his force powers then as he saw he was being overpowered in a saber battle?

I can't even stand to "debate" with you anymore. It just gives me a headache. So have fun thinking you're right. I would concede the arguments, but I'm sure that someone else will be more than happy to show you the error of your ways.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Kotor3, you are without a doubt one of the most ignorant people I've encountered on here. You don't listen, use poor logic, and then try to insult my grammar when you rattle off statements like, Why did not Dooku use his force powers then as he saw he was being overpowered in a saber battle?

I can't even stand to "debate" with you anymore. It just gives me a headache. So have fun thinking you're right. I would concede the arguments, but I'm sure that someone else will be more than happy to show you the error of your ways.

LOL.

That is exactly how I feel about your response. The best debater I have encounter so far on here is Elite. He was able to use examples that counter my logic to the point that even if I did not agree I could not argue against them. I conceded twice to him in two of my threads. He did so without talking about my grammar or anything else.

So go ahead and keep whining with your name calling and insults.

That's nice.

How is it that your statement is fact that Mace would have been killed by Sidious if Anakin never came? You are speculating which does not count here. Mace already blocked his force lighting and defeated him in a saber fight.

So tell me why wouldn't Mace be able to block the force push? You need to stop quoting as if you are George Lucas.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was chocking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"

I like being needlessly technical in a condescending manner. It lessens the loneliness in my soul. (grammar loneliness)

Originally posted by Kotor3
LOL.

That is exactly how I feel about your response. The best debater I have encounter so far on here is Elite. He was able to use examples that counter my logic to the point that even if I did not agree I could not argue against them. I conceded twice to him in two of my threads. He did so without talking about my grammar or anything else.

So go ahead and keep whining with your name calling and insults.