Team SOLDIER vs Team Ansatsuken

Originally posted by DarkC
[B]If he was beaten up to the point where he allowed Gouki to pick him up by his head then toss him away like a piece of fodder, then yes, he did get dominated. Badly, I might add.

According to your standards, from what I've seen here, one must have to been beaten to within an inch of their life for you to concede that they have been "dominated", a concept is obviously very absurd.

Read what I said, it's the way Gouki naturally is when he fights, not eats. I'm not even sure why you brought that up.

There's a difference between mere "effort" and your conception of actually "trying"; if you're basing your argument on the fact that Gouki was grunting (out of all things, really) when fighting Ryu then I could just claim a victory there right here and now; he's always done it while fighting - just like he's always shouted something when he's doing a super.

Read above.

It's still technically unclear; the next scene you see him standing on the Great Wall of China, not arriving there - for all we knew he could have arrived an hour ago, or 5 hours before the time frame of that scene. IN your opinion, minutes.

Most of the supers he's actually done at all are mainly Shungokusatsus, where he just does it instantly and without warning.

The only other supers he's done are Kongokokuretsu San (which was never depicted in anything other than gameplay, and the actual "charge" up time is unknown), Tenshou Kaireki Jin (none, as shown in the 3S ending), and Tenma Gou Zankuu Kouu (in the SF4 trailer, about half a second).

The one you see in the SF4 anime trailer is the Tenma Gou Zankuu Kouu, a level 2 super. Considering that the only two known level 3 supers, Shungokusatsu and Misogi are stated to be instantaneous (charge-up time for Misogi is unclear, but common sense points to none if you look at the nature of the move) - his most powerful moves wouldn't require more than a second to charge.

Not unless you had perfect 20/20 eyesight.

You've never played a football game, evidently.

If you're ignorant to the point to ignore the terrible video quality of YouTube and point the blame solely to my eyesight, that's another thing altogether. Coupling this and the fact that I was actually making repeated effort to see what you described, that doesn't make a very good statement for you.

Originally posted by Terryc250
... tossing someone by their head after one is defeated is not real evidence that he dominated him in the fight.. Ryu could've just lost, theres no way to tell, it could've been a good fight with gouki being the victor, and stll he could've tossed Ryu by the head while he was down.

If, say - he were breathing heavily and staggering, then yes, that indicates that it would have been a good fight, but all other evidence so far very clearly points toward a one-sided fight, before Ryu got up.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No.. all i'm saying is that tossing him by the head after Ryu was defeated is not evidence that Ryu was totally dominated, Ryu could've landed some shots in as well.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Whats your basis of this claim? You're saying even if hes putting no force in his blows, and not trying, he'll still be grunting with each blow? I don't buy it, no one throws a soft punch and grunts, Gouki was obviously putting in an effort.

The fact that he isn't trying terribly hard against Ryu (not putting in ZERO effort, obviously, as you seem to think I implied) doesn't mean that he has to throw soft punches and kicks, just for the heck of it. Since when have you seen Gouki (or any other Street Fighter, for that matter) not make noise? If anything, Gouki makes the least noise. If he was yelling, or something like you see in the 3S ending ("Muuuuuuuuun! Tenshou Kaireki Jin!!"😉 then yes, that would clearly indicate effort.

Grunting is just a reflex, and should be treated as such.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The fact that he is throwing supers in the fight also means he's putting in an effort to fight Ryu, seriously theres no basis of claim to say he wasn't trying at all in that fight, you can show anyone and anyone would tell you that he was clearly putting in an effort. He's always done it when he fights someone that he needs to put an effort on, you think if he was fighting someone with no martial arts skill, he'd still be grunting ?

You're dragging this argument into troubled waters for no good reason. He only fights those who are worthy of his time, why on Earth would he allow himself to fight someone without any martial arts skill? Presumption and speculation might be nice sometimes, but they serve no real purpose here. And so far, the fights that we've seen "live", he grunts. End of story.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Its clear that theres no basis to claim he teleported from scene 1 to scene 2.

Remember, I only used this evidence because Sado22 brought it up some time earlier in another thread.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Show me the proof that Shungokusatsus is instantaneous, again i want to see videos of him performing it in canon, or evidence you cannot say Tenshou Kaireki Jin has no charge, because well, you don't see him performing it in the ending.

There's only been one instance of him performing it in a video I believe, and you can clearly see that it's very fast and requires little charge-up.
YouTube video

Also I think this frame is from the Udon comic (I remember that it was some form of comic. Although TECHNICALLY it is not canon, we'll use it here for the sake of argument, considering how little evidence of what a shungokusatsu is really like there is.

As you can see, Gouken barely has time to yell before he's taken under by Gouki, strongly suggesting that it's a very fast and unpredictable move outside of in-game. Remember, at this point in the plot Gouken had actually just beat Gouki in battle and he spared Gouki from a battlefield death because they were brothers - Gouki then taunted Gouken for his weakness, then pulled the Shungokusatsu on him.

As for the Tenshou Kaireki Jin, there's about a 2 second difference beween the shots of the ship on the surface ("What was that?"😉 and the submarine losing radio contact with the ship. Considering that there was no visible sign of Gouki focusing his ki or something similar, at MOST it would have taken two seconds to charge and then start up the move, blasting everything up to the surface.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Actually i used to do a lot of track and field, and i definately recall the 100m sprint competitions, standing from one end i'm 100% certain the people DID NOT appear as small little dots in the distance.

Originally posted by Terryc250
its clear enough to make out, and im pretty sure other people can make it out as well, its not "terrible" its clear enough.

-edit-

Originally posted by DarkC
Considering that Gouki was in excellent shape and stamina, to the point where he rained his flame gouhadoukens left and right of Ryu just to mock him, then yes I would say that Gouki completely dominated the fight - he wouldn't have grounds to spite Ryu for it so heavily otherwise.

If, say - he were breathing heavily and staggering, then yes, that indicates that it would have been a good fight, but all other evidence so far very clearly points toward a one-sided fight, before Ryu got up.

The fact that he isn't trying terribly hard against Ryu (not putting in ZERO effort, obviously, as you seem to think I implied) doesn't mean that he has to throw soft punches and kicks, just for the heck of it. Since when have you seen Gouki (or any other Street Fighter, for that matter) not make noise? If anything, Gouki makes the least noise. If he was yelling, or something like you see in the 3S ending ("Muuuuuuuuun! Tenshou Kaireki Jin!!"😉 then yes, that would clearly indicate effort.

Grunting is just a reflex, and should be treated as such.

No, please go back and read my posts, I'm very sure I acknowledged that Gouki was putting in SOME effort after Ryu got up - just not before, so you're beating a dead horse here essentially. Pay attention.

You're dragging this argument into troubled waters for no good reason. He only fights those who are worthy of his time, why on Earth would he allow himself to fight someone without any martial arts skill? Presumption and speculation might be nice sometimes, but they serve no real purpose here. And so far, the fights that we've seen "live", he grunts. End of story.

Neither the other way around either, which is why I said it was ambiguous.

There's only been one instance of him performing it in a video I believe, and you can clearly see that it's very fast and requires little charge-up.
YouTube video

Also I think this frame is from the Udon comic (I remember that it was some form of comic. Although TECHNICALLY it is not canon, we'll use it here for the sake of argument, considering how little evidence of what a shungokusatsu is really like there is.

As you can see, Gouken barely has time to yell before he's taken under by Gouki, strongly suggesting that it's a very fast and unpredictable move outside of in-game. Remember, at this point in the plot Gouken had actually just beat Gouki in battle and he spared Gouki from a battlefield death because they were brothers - Gouki then taunted Gouken for his weakness, then pulled the Shungokusatsu on him.

As for the Tenshou Kaireki Jin, there's about a 2 second difference beween the shots of the ship on the surface ("What was that?"😉 and the submarine losing radio contact with the ship. Considering that there was no visible sign of Gouki focusing his ki or something similar, at MOST it would have taken two seconds to charge and then start up the move, blasting everything up to the surface.

and uhh no.. 2 seconds? More like 7 seconds after his Gouki's eyes flash, then the man says the radio has been cut. Anyway a 2 second chargeup is actually quite long in a real fight.

Not small specks in the distance, blurs more or less.

They very likely just accepted your word for it or were too lazy to question it. However, having watched that fight countless times on YouTube, I had to question it - I was always under the impression that Sephiroth flipped into that hole from below, rather than approaching it head on from afar.

Originally posted by Terryc250
You cannot tell that, after Ryu got up, he seemed to be in "excellent shape and stamina" as well, its ambiguous how the fight went.

Again, after Ryu got up, he seemed to be in excellent shape and stamina, so obviously Gouki didn't beat him THAT bad.

That's just absurd, sorry.

The fact that he made a very good recovery doesn't at all negate the fact that he got beaten, and very badly too. He was down and out for quite some time, as you can see - and you're still too stubborn to admit that, okay, maybe Ryu did get owned after all, at least at that juncture?

The man is getting a mud facial, for Pete's sake, and you say "No, he's fine".

Ridiculous.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Don't use the automatic gameplay noise as an excuse that its reflex while fighting

You're trying to drink out of an empty cup here, Terry.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Ryu doesn't make any grunting noise in gameplay

How many Street Fighter games have you played?

Originally posted by Terryc250
yet in the fight they were both grunting while throwing punches and countering eachother, they were both putting in much effort.

Considering that you have contributed (quite literally) absolutely nothing to this segment of the argument, I will end this part of the debate right here, judging from you refusing to think productively.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No basis to claim that.

Originally posted by Terryc250
You're stating that Gouki put in no effort and defeated Ryu like nothing in the pre-fight which we don't even get to see, the only reason you're claiming that is because Gouki threw him by his head after Ryu was defeated, sorry but thats ridiculous he could've just been mrerely defeated

I stand by what I said before, your standards of "dominated" translate to the person being beat nearly to death before they would, to you, be 'dominated'.

If it was in your circumstances, a "fair" fight, where both gave as good as they got, then by your logic Akuma should be close to collapse as well; do you see him such? No. You are wrong.

You are not thinking outside the box here, Terry - what if's and could've's don't matter to me at this point, solid fact does.

Gouki lives by the code of the warrior - he doesn't mock the fighters that he respects. Look at the way he treated Gen in SFA2, even going so far as to address Gen with the honorific title "Master Gen". To him Gen was a true warrior, one without weakness, and that's part of the reason why Akuma spared him.

Now, Ryu on the other hand, annoys Gouki because Gouki knows he can become a much better fighter, one "worthy of challenge" (Tiamat) if Ryu embraced the Satsui no Hadou. It was why Gouki called him a "spineless coward", for not embracing the power he so rightfully should have. So he beats Ryu up when he refuses to use SNH in an attempt to show that "he's doing it wrong".

Originally posted by Terryc250
and Gouki could've thrown him from any part of his body it wouldn't matter, we don't see the fight so its ambiguous.

Originally posted by Terryc250
There you go. He fights those who are worthy hence, he needs to try. He wouldn't fight anyone he can simply "own", he needs to put in effort to defeat Ryu.

I didn't say it required absolutely "no" effort at all (again, pay attention), but he could defeat Ryu without breaking too much of a sweat.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Besides the fact that you don't even see shungokusatsu being performed, "Capcom vs" games are NON-CANON towards the Street Fighter, so posting that is irrelevent, posting the comics is irrelevent as well, so claiming shungokusatsu requires no charge up is baseless.

If you want to actually provide me some proof or fact, or something that indicates that shungokusatsu is canon-wise a slow move, feel free. I absolutely hate debates where most of what I see is pure speculation.

Anyways, those are the only things I can technically "show" you of shungokusatsu being performed - the only times he's performed it were on Bison, Gouken, and Gen, the latter two I've already attempted to show you. However, during the account vs Bison, he apparently "surprised" Bison with a SGS, "killing him instantly". Again, this indicates speed.

Originally posted by Terryc250
and uhh no.. 2 seconds? More like 7 seconds after his Gouki's eyes flash, then the man says the radio has been cut. Anyway a 2 second chargeup is actually quite long in a real fight.

Why on Earth would he attempt pull off a move like Tenshou Kaireki Jin in the middle of a hard-boiled fight? Whatever you make think, he's not stupid enough to try it unless he had space.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, its a black dot, either way its far from simply 100m.

If you were Cloud looking at that "dot", would it still be a dot?
Think differently here, change perspective.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Its because he warps so fast that it seems like that, it wasn't until i actually paid attention that i saw he really came from a far distance.

Originally posted by DarkC
You're judging Ryu on how he performed after he stood up and completely disregarding the fact that he was facedown, unmoving, probably unconscious and almost completely oblivious to the fact that fireballs are raining down on all sides of him.

That's just absurd, sorry.

The fact that he made a very good recovery doesn't at all negate the fact that he got beaten, and very badly too. He was down and out for quite some time, as you can see - and you're still too stubborn to admit that, okay, maybe Ryu did get owned after all, at least at that juncture?

The man is getting a mud facial, for Pete's sake, and you say "No, he's fine".

Ridiculous.

If he was totally injured he would he limping and all that.

What do you suggest I use then? There is no other source, and while gameplay mechanics are very often faulty, they're still technically viable sometimes, AKA here.

Again, this silly grunting = much effort fallacy of yours. Terrible reasoning, I've already explained why several times now and all you're doing is making me repeat myself by just retreating back to your "they're grunting, that automatically means he's trying really hard" statement.

Considering that you have contributed (quite literally) absolutely nothing to this segment of the argument, I will end this part of the debate right here, judging from you refusing to think productively.

What "claim", Terry? It's fact.

The "pre" fight itself is unclear, correct, but we can very clearly see who won and who lost, and by what margin too. The first thing you see is Ryu facedown in the dirt unconscious while Gouki is somewhere up above happily raining fireballs down everywhere, intentionally not hitting Ryu in an attempt to mock him. It's very obvious now that Ryu got owned pretty bad, any attempt to deny this is just folly. You have no basis in fact, just speculation - while I present to you the obvious and the facts, you fall back on speculation.

I stand by what I said before, your standards of "dominated" translate to the person being beat nearly to death before they would, to you, be 'dominated'.

If it was in your circumstances, a "fair" fight, where both gave as good as they got, then by your logic Akuma should be close to collapse as well; do you see him such? No. You are wrong.

You are not thinking outside the box here, Terry - what if's and could've's don't matter to me at this point, solid fact does.

Gouki lives by the code of the warrior - he doesn't mock the fighters that he respects. Look at the way he treated Gen in SFA2, even going so far as to address Gen with the honorific title "Master Gen". To him Gen was a true warrior, one without weakness, and that's part of the reason why Akuma spared him.

Now, Ryu on the other hand, annoys Gouki because Gouki knows he can become a much better fighter, one "worthy of challenge" (Tiamat) if Ryu embraced the Satsui no Hadou. It was why Gouki called him a "spineless coward", for not embracing the power he so rightfully should have. So he beats Ryu up when he refuses to use SNH in an attempt to show that "he's doing it wrong".

Why was this even brought up?

He wouldn't seriously fight anyone he can simply "own", that's why he "holds back" in the first place as said in the 3S guide. There's a difference.

I didn't say it required absolutely "no" effort at all (again, pay attention), but he could defeat Ryu without breaking too much of a sweat.

Ok, so you've resorted to calling me out on canon vs non-canon resources as an argument substitute; thanks for stating the obvious, I've already acknowledged it and told you it was for the sake of argument. Those were the only two times I remember Shungokusatsu being performed at all - besides the anime (which is quite coincedentally non-canon as well) which I could not find, where it was actually depicted.

If you want to actually provide me some proof or fact, or something that indicates that shungokusatsu is canon-wise a slow move, feel free. I absolutely hate debates where most of what I see is pure speculation.

Anyways, those are the only things I can technically "show" you of shungokusatsu being performed - the only times he's performed it were on Bison, Gouken, and Gen, the latter two I've already attempted to show you. However, during the account vs Bison, he apparently "surprised" Bison with a SGS, "killing him instantly". Again, this indicates speed.

You're looking at it from a screen, a 640 x 340 one.

If you were Cloud looking at that "dot", would it still be a dot?
Think differently here, change perspective.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, i give explanations why.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Uh no, when have i stated they'd mop the floor with ANYONE they fight? Sephiroth > Gouki, Sephiroth was a planetary threat, he has stopped a power that were capable of destroying everything on the planet, he took control over the source of life,magic,energy,power, Sephiroth was stated above beings like Omega WEAPON, Chaos, Minerva, he was even capable of transforming the entire planet into his vessel, Gouki hasn't came close to this kind of power, or demonstrated that kind of power.

Dude, Seph has NO FEATS that can match Akuma. Seph was a threat to HIS planet. Half the shit that exist in FF7 aint in SF. Seph thinks he's gonna come to the SF Earth and try that same shit he'll soon find out that there is NO Life stream and that there will be more than just Cloud to deal wit.

he was even capable of transforming the entire planet into his vessel, Gouki hasn't came close to this kind of power, or demonstrated that kind of power.

I would like to see Seph split a mountain wit his hands...AYERS PHUCKIN ROCK, wit his hands. I love to see Seph destroy an island wit a single regular well placed punch and then do all that while still not at full power. I want Seph to do actual feats.

This...

he was even capable of transforming the entire planet into his vessel, Gouki hasn't came close to this kind of power, or demonstrated that kind of power.

...doesn't prove he's fast, or that he's strong, or that he's intelligent...

but o'course what I posted means nothin to you and some how, some way Seph will still beat Akuma even though all his showins show that it aint likely, but some how some way Seph is just better in ALL aspects just cuz he's Sephiroth, "The ultimate VG villain".

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
so, you want me to take you seriously?

Originally posted by Terryc250
Uh no, when have i stated they'd mop the floor with ANYONE they fight?

Originally posted by Terryc250
And? The fact that he was able to get up afterwards and fight like nothing happened to him obviously means he wasn't terribly injured.
If he was totally injured he would he limping and all that.

I didn’t imply that he wasn’t injured, but he was clearly beaten on enough, to render him into unconsciousness, there is absolutely no denying this. You’re attempting to bring up factors that happened AFTER Ryu got up, when I’m discussing ‘before’ and ‘during’. It’s the equivalent of running to the corner store for orange juice and coming back with milk.

Once again, you have to pay attention to what I'm saying. It’s not an order, it’s a request, and it’s for your own good.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Use common sense, use regular logic, people don't grunt because its their "natural reflex" people normally grunt or make a noise when they're using a lot of force, like if a person is trying to push something heavy over, they'll grunt as they push.

Speaking from my experience, if someone was to say, throw a light knee they’d grunt.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Grunting = Effort, means he's putting in force behind his punches, your "Gouki isn't trying" is straight fail, anyone who watches that video can tell you he's putting in effort against Ryu, also the fact that he even starts to lose his cool tells you he's putting in effort.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Right.. says the guy who starts claiming all these fail things about Gouki, only to provide non-canon facts, and lies all this time.

If you want to have a civil debate, that’s perfectly fine with me, but if you’re going to reply with ridiculous unnecessary remarks like this, don’t bother. If you want to bring up every single ”fail” point that I have NOT acknowledged and explain why they are ‘fail’, feel free, but throwing something like this out there is clearly trolling, so I won’t go into some rant.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Yes its a reflex of putting in much effort, if i was using alot of force to push something over or throw a hard punch i guess i'd grunt out of reflex.

I’d say you were partially correct here – it’s a sign of “effort”, just not how much of it is given. You can hear Gouki grunting loudly while firing off his fireballs in the beginning, and it’s obviously clear at that time he was just out to spite Ryu, having already beaten him down earlier, does that mean he’s giving an exceptional amount of effort there? No – his fireballs do require “some” effort, according to your own logic here his blows require “some” amount of effort too.

Originally posted by Terryc250
We can see who won and lost correct, but no we cannot see Ryu get "pwned" again, he lost yes, but your ridiculous "Ryu mustve got pwned because Gouki tossed him by his head" is totally fallacious.

Ryu’s facedown in the dirt.
He is unable to move.
He is barely conscious.
Apparently too tired to talk.
When Gouki picks him up by his head to spite him with a few words, he doesn’t even have it in him to say something back, or even struggle.

At this point, you’re still telling me that Ryu did not get “owned” . I’m certain that anyone else here reading our debate will agree with me that this is quite a foolish thing to say. Look at these circumstances I pointed out, not the events that happened AFTER the fight, and I hope you will agree with me here, despite your pride, that Ryu did get owned in the pre-fight.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, dominated to me is person 1, beating person 2, while hardly being touched, and person 1, again its unclear whether Ryu landed some well hits in or not.
Uh no, Ryu couldve landed well good hits, but Gouki could still be as he was, because think about it, after Ryu got up, it seemed like he was totally fine as well.

I already told you that Ryu was able to make a solid recovery (and yes, you do see this in MMA), why do you insist on bringing it up repeatedly? It’s irrelevant to what happened before – I’ve already explained why more than once now, and I will not do so again.

As for the fight itself, Ryu MIGHT (keyword) have been able to land some technically good shots, but as you can see Gouki was completely unfazed. He’s happily flying around blowing things up around Ryu, as you can clearly see. You’re still relying on “could haves” and “maybes”, I’m pointing to facts, visual evidence, etc. Stop it.

Originally posted by Terryc250
...... wtf? The entire pre-fight is a what if, there ARE NO solid facts. The only thing we know is Ryu lost, there is no facts to say Gouki totally pwned him.

Originally posted by Terryc250
PRECISELY, so for you to say Gouki is putting in very little effort against Ryu is wrong, he fights Ryu because he finds him worthy, he'll obviously put in effort against him, either that or he wouldn't fight him at all.

Why would he spite Ryu like he did if he found him “worthy”? Look at the way he treated Gen, then look at the way he treated Ryu. Are those even remotely similar?
He finds “Evil Ryu” worthy, not Ryu. The only reason why he lets Ryu live is to let Ryu find his full potential, by embracing the Satsui no Hadou. He even said this in the trailer himself (“Why do you fear the power within? Spineless coward!”) while he was holding Ryu by one hand midair, so I’m not entirely sure why you have trouble understanding this – the evidence is right under your nose.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Because your using the "he threw him by his head so he mustve pwned him!" i'm saying it doesn't matter, Ryu lost, Gouki can throw him by any part of his body, it wouldnt make any difference.

Read above.

Originally posted by Terryc250
... That makes no sense, if he doesn't want to fight people he can "own" then hew would just NOT fight the person, Gouki only fights people he finds worthy, thats a fact, if he didn't find a person worthy, he won't fight them, its not like he'll fight an unworthy opponent and just hold back. Again [b]he only fights worthy opponents.

Ryu is an exception of this rule. You see, Gouki detected a great potential within Ryu when they fought the first time, the same potential that caused Ryu to use a metsu-shoryuken vs Sagat at the end of the events in the first Street Fighter game. At this point Akuma knew that Ryu would make a very competitive foe…but only if he embraced the Satsui no Hadou.

Unfortunately, to Akuma’s great frustration, Ryu feared the SNH after its initial presence became known, so this whole time he’s been trying to bait Ryu into using SNH in order for a good fight. This is precisely what you see happening on the island – with him mocking Ryu repeatedly when he could have chose to kill him. The events to this video were very similar to Ryu’s encounter with Gouki on the island Goutetsu, in which Akuma beat him, taunted him, then sunk the island to leave Ryu floating.

There you have it. Gouki DOES consider Ryu to be a worthy challenger – just only if he uses SNH, which he does not.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Wrong, i'd rather believe the video then you, sorry.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Cool, if you don't mind, do not post irrelevent things, i can draw a comic of Sephiroth blinking the world out of existance and post it but it wouldnt matter, so back on topic, nothing suggests that Shungokusatsu is instant.

Anyways, the first time it was used – vs Gouken – Gouki had been beaten by his brother and asked Gouken to kill him, as it honored the necessary code of the warrior. Gouken refused, and so Gouki mocked him for his weakness and springs Shungokusatsu on him, killing him. Now – considering the alleged state of the two fighters, do you think that Gouken would have been able to dodge out of the way and avoid the move, had it been a slow one?

If the answer is yes, you have defeated your own argument, per se.

One more thing. The literal Japanese translation of “Shungokusatsu” is “Instant Hell Murder”, which is quite literally what it does; the user drag their opponent through the fifteen hells (7 cold, 8 hot I believe) of Japanese folklore to get beat up by demons along the way, with the final killing blow ending up in the 15th hell, the ‘hottest’ one of them all. This is why the move is a 15-hit combo in-game, or at least it was during the times of SFA.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Well if we look at his other supers, they require a chargeup, i don't see why this one would be any different.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Either that, or he caught him offguard.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Even so, it still looks further then a simple 100m, a person standing 100m away from me i can still see there hands, etc. even if i take a picture of that person and put it on my comp, it still wouldnt look like a small dot.

Fair?

Originally posted by Terryc250
But anyway, he still travelled that distance in about 1/5th of a second which is far faster then anything we've seen from Gouki

Originally posted by DarkC
It’s very obvious at this point you have little or no understanding of Street Fighter lore, at least pertaining to the relationship between Ryu and Gouki. I’ll explain here;

Ryu is an exception of this rule. You see, Gouki detected a great potential within Ryu when they fought the first time, the same potential that caused Ryu to use a metsu-shoryuken vs Sagat at the end of the events in the first Street Fighter game. At this point Akuma knew that Ryu would make a very competitive foe…but only if he embraced the Satsui no Hadou.

Unfortunately, to Akuma’s great frustration, Ryu feared the SNH after its initial presence became known, so this whole time he’s been trying to bait Ryu into using SNH in order for a good fight. This is precisely what you see happening on the island – with him mocking Ryu repeatedly when he could have chose to kill him. The events to this video were very similar to Ryu’s encounter with Gouki on the island Goutetsu, in which Akuma beat him, taunted him, then sunk the island to leave Ryu floating.

A very odd thing to say, considering I’ve taken most of my evidence from said video.

Well, truth be told, non-canon doesn’t translate to irrelevant.

Anyways, the first time it was used – vs Gouken – Gouki had been beaten by his brother and asked Gouken to kill him, as it honored the necessary code of the warrior. Gouken refused, and so Gouki mocked him for his weakness and springs Shungokusatsu on him, killing him. Now – considering the alleged state of the two fighters, do you think that Gouken would have been able to dodge out of the way and avoid the move, had it been a slow one?

If the answer is yes, you have defeated your own argument, per se.

One more thing. The literal Japanese translation of “Shungokusatsu” is “Instant Hell Murder”, which is quite literally what it does; the user drag their opponent through the fifteen hells (7 cold, 8 hot I believe) of Japanese folklore to get beat up by demons along the way, with the final killing blow ending up in the 15th hell, the ‘hottest’ one of them all. This is why the move is a 15-hit combo in-game, or at least it was during the times of SFA.

Which other supers?

To be honest, a possibility is all that really is – unless I watch the movie in high-definition or something neither of us can really accurately tell. To you it looks like a dot, to me it doesn’t.

Fair?

Stop acting like Seph wasn't putting effort in fighting Cloud. If he was so superior to Cloud he wouldn't have gotten beaten by him (twice). You don't just let yourself be killed (Cloud whooped that ass), at least we know Akuma isn't fighting at full power and actually survives each encounter against Ryu.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Where is this information from? This does sound familiar but i think it was from a SF anime i watched many years ago.. where are you getting this information from?

The anime show itself, while considered non-canon, does do a fairly accurate job of conveying this part of Street Fighter history (though outside of watching Gouki vs Gouken, I haven't seen much else from it).

Originally posted by Terryc250
Any person can tell you Gouki was obviously putting in effort fighting Ryu.
I mean come on, watch 2:55-4:10, its blatantly obvious

We’ve already been over this several times now, it’s pointless to bring it up.

Originally posted by Terryc250
In a debate it does, posting non-canon things is pointless, you might as well post that comic where Gouki blows up that meteor twice the size of Earth, or maybe i should post my friends comic he drew of Ryu kicking Mars in half, non-canon is non-canon.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Has Gouki ever landed it in a head on battle with someone who is fully healthy and not fatigued? Keep in mind that Sephiroth never tires.

Bison I don’t think got too much of a chance, while Gouken allegedly “easily” defeated his brother, which leads me to assume that he was in very good shape after the initial fight.

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. that doesn't necessarily mean that the move is instant, it could just mean the opponent is instantly in hell once he lands it, but that is interesting, i always thought Gouki just grabs them and demons reach up from below and attack him.

If it were the way you described, it wouldn’t be “Instant Hell Murder”, it’d just be “Hell Murder”.

Originally posted by Terryc250
All the other supers he has, i'm pretty sure all street fighter characters have supers where they charge, thats why they put in the charge in gameplay.

I’ve only listed a few supers thus far because we’ve never seen him use any of his other super-moves in canon story. The messatsu specials, those have never been seen ‘yet’, they might make an appearance finally in a canonically accepted media like the Tenma Gou Zankuu-kouu (that previously before the SF4 anime trailer was revealed, was considered a non-canon move).

So far his other supers are moot, hence why I haven’t brought them up yet – we know nothing of their true destructive power other than a few hints, and how they were designed.

Originally posted by Terryc250
this is HD DVD screenshot

What I meant is that if you were standing in Cloud’s place inside that building – from his viewpoint – Sephiroth would not appear as a dot in the distance. You’d need like a 50” LCD to get my point.

Originally posted by dvampire
Stop acting like Seph wasn't putting effort in fighting Cloud. If he was so superior to Cloud he wouldn't have gotten beaten by him (twice). You don't just let yourself be killed (Cloud whooped that ass), at least we know Akuma isn't fighting at full power and actually survives each encounter against Ryu.

Everyone here that's remotely into the Final Fantasies, namely VII, knows that Sephiroth has not even shown a fraction of his power and he's able to match Cloud with that, despite what you may think from watching the movies/playing the games.

Even in the AC fight, you could see that he didn't put too much effort into it at all, maybe some here and there, towards the end, but he pretty much dominated that entire fight.

The guys responsible for AC stated that Sephiroth put no effort at all. He was pretty much mocking Cloud throughout the entire fight. They made Cloud fight Kadaj without any signs of trouble in order to show just how vastly superior Sephiroth was when we see Cloud giving his all and fail up until PISslash.

Yeah...I still don't believe that. The guy died three times by Cloud. You're trying to tell me he toyed with Cloud and let himself get killed three times? It's bull. It's okay to mock and toy around, but normally when you're about to die, all playing should stop. Seph wasn't playing around I think, he just lost straight up.

Was Sephiroth toying with Cloud?

Definately. But fact is, once Cloud pulled out the Omnislash V.5, Sephiroth could do nothing to escape it.

Originally posted by dvampire
Yeah...I still don't believe that. The guy died three times by Cloud. You're trying to tell me he toyed with Cloud and let himself get killed three times? It's bull. It's okay to mock and toy around, but normally when you're about to die, all playing should stop. Seph wasn't playing around I think, he just lost straight up.

Originally posted by DarkC
Effort, yes – a significant one, possibly – but he was definitely not going all-out on Ryu, which is the point what I’ve been trying to establish all along.

You don't have anything to compare it with, so I'm not even sure why you say he's "clearly" giving effort after Ryu gets up. In retrospect, this is the exact same effort that Sephiroth treated Cloud with in FF: AC"

IMO, its not the same treatment Sephiroth was giving Cloud, Sephiroth didn't use a single one of his powers, even against Genesis and Angeal he used a blade beam, he did nothing but taunt Cloud.

In this case, no it would not be completely pointless – those are the only depictions of the Shungokusatsu being used, on anything. They’re not legitimate, yes, but not pointless.
I posted it and at the same time acknowledged the fact that it was not canon, and also at the same time posted reasons for me using it, yet you still insist on calling me out for it. You asked for me to show you what Shungokusatsu would technically be like, I did that as best as I could – then predictably, you instantly refute that and in turn provide no supporting evidence for your own conjectures.

Out of the three people he has canonically performed Shungokusatsu on, only Gen was not at full potential and he was fatigued.[/quote[
He hit vega from behind, Gouken wasn't at full i don't think, unless you provide me quotes on how the fight actually went (from a reliable source).

[quote]
No, once the moves land it’s not an instant death – a very quick and painful one, I’ll admit, but not instant, otherwise it wouldn’t be a 15-hit combo. Akuma has to drag his unfortunate opponent through all fifteen hells before they die, so according to this they’re not “instantly” in hell.

If it were the way you described, it wouldn’t be “Instant Hell Murder”, it’d just be “Hell Murder”.

I’ve only listed a few supers thus far because we’ve never seen him use any of his other super-moves in canon story. The messatsu specials, those have never been seen ‘yet’, they might make an appearance finally in a canonically accepted media like the Tenma Gou Zankuu-kouu (that previously before the SF4 anime trailer was revealed, was considered a non-canon move).

What I meant is that if you were standing in Cloud’s place inside that building – from his viewpoint – Sephiroth would not appear as a dot in the distance. You’d need like a 50” LCD to get my point.

Stop acting like Seph wasn't putting effort in fighting Cloud. If he was so superior to Cloud he wouldn't have gotten beaten by him (twice). You don't just let yourself be killed (Cloud whooped that ass), at least we know Akuma isn't fighting at full power and actually survives each encounter against Ryu.

Yeah...I still don't believe that. The guy died three times by Cloud. You're trying to tell me he toyed with Cloud and let himself get killed three times? It's bull. It's okay to mock and toy around, but normally when you're about to die, all playing should stop. Seph wasn't playing around I think, he just lost straight up.

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. The reason we started debating this whole entire thing is because you said Gouki never exerted himself, then i said he was clearly giving effort against Ryu, then you replied saying
"What constitutes him giving effort anyways? He stopped 'messing' around with Ryu, but only after his mistake from being far too careless.

Originally posted by Terryc250
You don't have anything to compare it with, so I'm not even sure why you say he's "clearly" giving effort after Ryu gets up. In retrospect, this is the exact same effort that Sephiroth treated Cloud with in FF: AC"

He wouldn't have used a Tenma Gou Zankuukou on Ryu if he hadn't been giving effort. Remember, it's a level 2 super; judging from its relative power compared to his other supers - I say that yes, he was giving some effort after.

Originally posted by Terryc250
IMO, its not the same treatment Sephiroth was giving Cloud, Sephiroth didn't use a single one of his powers, even against Genesis and Angeal he used a blade beam, he did nothing but taunt Cloud.

Gouki being above Ryu is not nearly the same scale as Sephiroth being above Cloud.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Non-canon is non-canon, If i started claiming Ryu can punch through planets, then someone told me to "Provide Evidence" on that, then i posted a personal-drawn comic of Ryu punching through mars, itll just be ridiculous, its the same as you claiming shungokusatsu is instant, then posting non-canon material, again, non-canon is non-canon and cannot be used as evidence.

And I "showed" you.

As you see, I knew it was non-canon and chose to point it out as such was appropriate; your repeated falling back on it is essentially pointless, a waste of an argument considering I had already said so earlier.

Your example of a self-drawn comic is completely off-the-wall altogether; considering that the other references are actual published work, and thus are approved by Capcom and their relevant associates, they at least have credibility in that department even if they are not considered to be canon. Don't bring that up again, it's a silly example.

Originally posted by Terryc250
In every game its really fast, once you land it, he grabs and the screen flashes, and the 15 hits are so fast its basically instant, once the screen appears again, the person is already on the ground, the slower part IS BEFORE the grab(having to move up to the opponent which already takes away the "instant"😉, which is why the "instant" shouldnt be a decription of the pre-grab.

Depiction (or lack thereof) of the moves in the games themselves are lacking - since we've been discussing his use of the Tenma Gou Zankuukou let's use that as a comparison. In the anime trailer you see him firing them all from one hand and they're moving a LOT faster than they do in the game. They're also apparently fired off faster too, enough to make one big explosion instead of many little ones. Also, look how outrageously long it takes Ryu to power up his Shinkuu Hadouken, then compare that to SF4, or any other SF for that matter. Only Ken's Shinryuken in that video appeared identical to in-game.

Basically what I'm saying here is that the "official" recognization of the actual execution of Supers themselves are likely to differ, either radically or not at all, so we have no way of knowing what the Shungokusatsu's speed during the actual execution of the move, when he's dragging his victims through all the hells. The actual "approach" of the move, from what canon material suggests, is instant.

Your use of game mechanics here are lacking credibility when you refer to the "having to move up to the opponent" (I assume you refer to the ashura look-alike move). It's a balancing mechanic. Do you really think that Akuma would have been considered a "balanced" character if he could, upon reaching a Lvl.3 charge, instantly wipe out his opponent with a simple 5-button combination?

The reason why this move is so ridiculously easy to avoid in-game is because it's so overpowered in the first place in terms of damage done. You don't see any of the high-teir Street Fighter players using it in a match successfully. Hsien Chang once (overconfidently, I might add) attempted it against Umehara and lost when he had the advantage beforehand. It can be stopped with a well-timed LP.

I could go into a whole new rant about how stupid this move is to attempt to use in any competent SF match, but I'll just cut it off here.

Originally posted by Terryc250
So the only super we actually witness is the "Tenma Gou Zankuu-kouu" which did require a small charge, so we really cannot say that his other supers don't require any.

Even if they required a charge, it definitely is not significant enough to present an opening in the midst of combat.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I know what you mean, but i'm saying if you took a picture of someone standing 100m away, made it junk quality, and made it at like 600x400, you'd still beable to make out hands, etc. and they wouldn't be just a dot.

why toy around with a man who surprised you last time and nearly killed you only to start toying around, get surprised and get killed permanently? 😕