Originally posted by Gideon
I seem to be repeating myself. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. I'm clearly insane since my expectation here is for you to comprehend this. Count Dooku was able to overpower the Jedi Order's greatest and most experienced duo, despite the fact that he was driven back and on the verge of a shut down. Do you understand? He was being overwhelmed by lightsabers and still managed to use the Force at a point where he was almost comatose from a lack of energy to continue the fight. Emperor Palpatine is far more powerful than Dooku and will not be so desperate. If Dooku can do it with simple telekinesis, Palpatine can do it as well, with more permenant results.
Your conclusion is irrelevant because it has no bearing here on this battle. It doesn't matter if Dooku or Sidious can wave their hand and send Obi-Wan or Anakin flying away, because there are going to be three more team members who are coming at him, sabers drawn, ready to kill. In your example, Dooku is battling two Jedi, where he sidesteps Anakin and uses the time and space to fling Obi-Wan away. In a saber battle here, you have three of the fastest and most skilled Jedi duelists ever. Sidious isn't going to have that spare second or two it takes to focus. See Bane's battle against Farfalla, Raskta, and Johun for an example. Three (if not all four) of Sidious' opponents here are faster than all of Bane's opponents in that duel save for perhaps Raskta. Oh, and before you come back with an idiotic remark such as, "LOLZ U COMPARE BANE 2 SIDS?" No. But the concept is the same. Exactly the same. Sidious won't have the time to do anything but defend himself with his saber once he's engaged in a duel.
And so what if he's thrown that one opponent away? It's not going to keep him out of the battle for good. You want Sidious to take one or two of them out with Force Lightning instead? I've already proven that his lightning doesn't kill powerful Jedi, like this team is made of, instantly. What you apparently refuse to acknowledge is that Palpatine's lightning can be blocked, and the Jedi are in a combat stance. It would take several seconds for any member of this team to be overwhelmed by his lightning, and in that time frame any member of the team could use a force attack of their own, or close the distance for a melee attack. You can't Force attack and Force shield at the same time. It's never been shown. And if even Galen can pick the Emperor up and slam him to the ground while he's fully prepared, don't dare make the argument that Yoda wouldn't be able to Force Push Sidious back and on his ass while he's focused on turning Obi-Wan or Anakin into a crispy critter. It fails.
I've proven that it took numerous seconds for Windu to submerge himself in Vaapad to counter Sidious circa RotS. It's not instantaneous nor is it close. I'll also point out that it will undoubtably take him even longer to match the even greater physicality and conditioning of Palpatine circa DE. Only Yoda is remotely as fast as Sidious, and that was circa RotS. Nothing indicates he's as fast as Sidious here. Your entire point relies on flaws and the unprovable. I'm not going to assume that they can compete with the reborn Emperor in speed until you prove it.
Funny, because Faunus has stated in another thread that all Depa had to do was close her eyes, open them, and ta da - she was submerged in Vaapad. Mace, being the creator and best user of it, shouldn't have much trouble there.
Also, just what the hell are you assuming the battle is going to start like? DE Sidious facing his PT foes from a football field length away? If that's the case, Palpatine summons a Force Storm and wins easily, the end. And speed is a non-factor. Sidious stands still using his Force Lightning. When Dooku flung Obi-Wan away, he was also standing still. He isn't going to run around the arena at superspeed zapping people.
What's ridiculous is that you are blindly assuming Windu and Yoda rival the Galactic Emperor in speed now and that they will be all over him in the time it takes him to wave his hand. Stop using kotor3's copyrighted brand of immeasurable stupidity.
I never said they would be able to reach him to force a saber duel before he waves his hand. My argument is that waving his hand and removing one combatant isn't going to do a damn thing. Because by the time it happens, guess what, the others are going to be in his face. We've seen examples of Force Speed in Episode I, when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run from the droidikas. Obviously, they can move fast. Not fast enough to stop a TK assault like that - but it hardly matters. Removing one lightsaber combatant still leaves him with three to deal with - and Yoda and Mace would be all it would take to beat him in a duel.
Force Lightning would take even longer to BFR (battle field remove) an opponent (takes longer than waving your hand, especially if you want to kill) - unless you want to use a Yoda who didn't have his saber out yet getting knocked out as an example - I don't.
This is the final time we're going over this. Reevaluate your argument and make your points better or make new ones. But anything that makes me repeat myself verbatim will just put you permenantly on ignore. I have no respect for intentional stupidity, regardless of who it is from.
You keep making your distinction between ROTS and DE. And that's nice. We all acknowledge DE is considerably stronger. Yet, you toss out my arguments because what you don't like, and the things that make my arguments work, occur mostly from what we see Sidious do in ROTS. Have you been taking lessons from Taven? That works both ways. Guess what, the only two Jedi that Palpatine uses Force Lightning on in Dark Empire are the examples I provided - Luke and Leia. Neither one of them comes even close to dying. So prove that DE Sidious' lightning can kill powerful Jedi at all.
Windu doesn't compete with the Emperor in terms of Force strength, potential, affinity, or mastery. Prove that his Force crush on the likes of General Grievous will work on the Emperor.
Just for kicks, he tries touching Leia's belly and gets shocked. So, a fetus with zero Force training harms DE Sidious. Nice, right? See, I can use information that's totally irrelevant to the actual battle here, too.
Considering you are the only one arguing that Sidious wins, perhaps you should get some common sense and stop being dense yourself. Oh, and stop with the insults and casually dismissing others arguments when what you say in reponse doesn't actually address them at all.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The point that I believe Faunus is trying to make is that Mace barely able to block the lightning as the novel states his blade was pushed so far back that he choking on it is ozone. Then there is the fact that Sidious suddenly stopped his lightning and pretended to show weakness.Yoda was knocked back during the begining of the duel by Sidious's lightning. Yoda was in danger of losing he was never safe in the fight. The circumstances of Yoda's lost is that he reached is limit and was too slow as the novel states here in this passage
This fight could have gone either way but Yoda was destined to lose. Sidious used the landscape to his advantage and there is nothing wrong with that. Yoda essentially chose the dueling area and it hurt him in the end tough luck for him that he coudln't hang on.
I came back to see Gideon's reponses and what do I get Elite responding back to me. Ah, I'm done. I can't agrue against the novel. I will entertian myself with Gideon and maybe I will respond to him.
I have told you before, I will not repeat myself. You have failed to provide any new information or new arguments to the old points, such as Count Dooku's casual dismissal of Skywalker and Kenobi via the Force and your ridiculous assertions that Yoda or Windu will somehow prevent that before a simple hand movement. I will now proceed to crush what new points you have attempted to make, and from there, you're going on ignore.
Please enjoy being mocked or ignored by the rest of the community here. You complete the trifecta of the worst debaters in debating history. It's pretty sad when you drive your own ally in this argument to vehemently disagree with you and doubt your intellect. You redefine failure, my friend.
Originally posted by Enyalus
What you apparently refuse to acknowledge is that Palpatine's lightning can be blocked, and the Jedi are in a combat stance.
Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith was capable of disarming Yoda casually and overpowering Windu despite the Jedi Master's numerous advantages. Palpatine circa Dark Empire is many times more powerful than his previous incarnation. You're wrong.
And if even Galen can pick the Emperor up and slam him to the ground while he's fully prepared, don't dare make the argument that Yoda wouldn't be able to Force Push Sidious back and on his ass while he's focused on turning Obi-Wan or Anakin into a crispy critter. It fails.
First, you'd have to prove that the comic's version of the fight is more valid than the novelization's. Second, Palpatine was levitating at the time. Third, Palpatine was goading Starkiller to strike him down the whole time. That he managed to survive that immense explosion orchestrated by Starkiller rather proves that the young psuedo-apprentice was no match for the Emperor in Force potency. Irrelevant misdirection #1.
Funny, because Faunus has stated in another thread that all Depa had to do was close her eyes, open them, and ta da - she was submerged in Vaapad. Mace, being the creator and best user of it, shouldn't have much trouble there.
Your ignorance is staggering. First, Windu claimed in Shatterpoint that Depa Billaba's mastery of Vaapad exceeds his own. Second, she wasn't fighting Darth Sidious. Hardly the same thing. Irrelevant misdirection #2.
Sidious stands still using his Force Lightning. When Dooku flung Obi-Wan away, he was also standing still. He isn't going to run around the arena at superspeed zapping people.
Aha. So one has to be immobile to use Force lightning? Guess Palpatine was on a ****ing conveyor belt in RotJ when he advanced upon Luke Skywalker. Irrelevant misdirection #3.
Guess what, the only two Jedi that Palpatine uses Force Lightning on in Dark Empire are the examples I provided - Luke and Leia. Neither one of them comes even close to dying. So prove that DE Sidious' lightning can kill powerful Jedi at all.
Luke Skywalker's command of the Force surpasses Anakin Skywalker's. Prove that Sidious wanted to kill Leia or Luke. Irrelevant misdirection #4.
Just for kicks, he tries touching Leia's belly and gets shocked. So, a fetus with zero Force training harms DE Sidious. Nice, right? See, I can use information that's totally irrelevant to the actual battle here, too.
Right, because zero Force training translates to helpless. I suppose one must train for overabundant Force potential and instinctive use? Yes, thank you.
Considering you are the only one arguing that Sidious wins, perhaps you should get some common sense and stop being dense yourself. Oh, and stop with the insults and casually dismissing others arguments when what you say in reponse doesn't actually address them at all.
Everything I said happens to have the merit of evidence to support them. You bring your own allies to frustration, even when they agree with the outcome. Quite simply, sir, you are a complete moron. Please do the world a favor and do not consider procreation. Abortion is your friend.
Originally posted by Gideon
We aren't debating. I am wasting my time by making logical points. You are being a moron. That isn't debating.Yeah, right. The guy who actually agrees with the outcome you proposed is spending all of his time bringing you to task for your stupidity. Do you expect to humble me through your failure? Nice strategy.
You are the very definition of intimidating. I must admit, the idea of you spawning and submitting this world to your retarded descendents is a very frightening thought. Though the possibility of you having sex seems to be as likely as you making a proper syllogism here. 'Impossible' comes to mind.
LOL, I can do that to.
YOU ARE WRONG! NANANANANANA.
You're mildly retarded; we're back to square one. Kenobi and Skywalker are irrelevant.
Because rushing and spearing your more powerful, stronger, smarter, and faster opponent will take less time for him to wave his ****ing hand. I have to ask, who can I attribute your depressingly low IQ to? Your mom or dad?
That is because, clearly, you are retarded and clearly seek to make some sort of convoluted statement about how the retarded shall inherit the earth.
Incapable of reading your username?
Windu says Jedi aren't soldiers. Windu overrules you. Period.
Jesus Christ. You're like a retarded mime. You just rehashed my earlier insult and tried to use it against me? Your score drops due to lack of originality.
Gideon you and Schwarzenegger are the reasons I decided to join KMC. Your posts are classic. Am I really supposed to respond to your post in seriousness?
Listen Star Wars man who thinks he is a great debater; stop spending all your time in star wars fantasies. Fan boy Schwarzenegger stop kissing Gideon’s ass.
GET A WOMAN! All your frustrations will be done away with, thoughts will be cleared and you will learn how to speak as men with a purpose. Then maybe we can actually speak seriously.
Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith was capable of disarming Yoda casually and overpowering Windu despite the Jedi Master's numerous advantages.
It was anything but casual, and Mace's struggling with his lightning took more than a second or a wave of his hand. More than enough time for any member of the team to stop the assault.
First, Windu claimed in Shatterpoint that Depa Billaba's mastery of Vaapad exceeds his own. Second, she wasn't fighting Darth Sidious. Hardly the same thing. Irrelevant misdirection #2.
That was about the only relevant thing you've said in your last post. My bad. 😉
@ Faunus: Just how exactly would you prove the team wins? Without, apparently, using any of the points I've mentioned because they fail to suit Gideon's need of provability.
@kotorcock
LOL you are an idiot beyond belief pal, since when i "spent all my time in star wars fantasies"?
Its painfully obvious i have other commitments and i spend my time elsewhere, i am more versed in the world of bodybuilding than arguing with a kotor fanboy that jerks off everytime he plays kotor or mentions about any kotor character.
Oh and as for "GET A WOMAN!!!", just why do we need to? How does getting a "woman" clear our thoughts(when it most cases, it fills the guys head with images of having sex in bed) and how does it make us learn how to "speak" on the internet?
Hahaha your a funny little kid, i bet when you mentioned "get a woman", you really meant it as "Get a whore" seeing that you treat nice innocent ladies like whores.
BTW, before you call me obsessed with you, i am merely having a good laugh everytime i respond to you.
Originally posted by EnyalusI think it's up to chance, really, and depends on the immediate survival of either Mace or Yoda for the three or four opening seconds of the battle. That amount of time is likely what it would take for Mace to sink into Vaapad provided that Sidious doesn't off him with the Force first. From there, the Jedi have someone who essentially mimics every burst of speed or strength Palpatine can muster while retaining a shatterpoint ability, while also possessing the most powerful Jedi in history, and the only one who can stand up to any of the Sith Lord's Force-attacks. This combination would likely result in Sidious ending up in several pieces.
@ Faunus: Just how exactly would you prove the team wins? Without, apparently, using any of the points I've mentioned because they fail to suit Gideon's need of provability.
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
@kotorcockLOL you are an idiot beyond belief pal, since when i "spent all my time in star wars fantasies"?
Its painfully obvious i have other commitments and i spend my time elsewhere, i am more versed in the world of bodybuilding than arguing with a kotor fanboy that jerks off everytime he plays kotor or mentions about any kotor character.
Oh and as for "GET A WOMAN!!!", just why do we need to? How does getting a "woman" clear our thoughts(when it most cases, it fills the guys head with images of having sex in bed) and how does it make us learn how to "speak" on the internet?
Hahaha your a funny little kid, i bet when you mentioned "get a woman", you really meant it as "Get a whore" seeing that you treat nice innocent ladies like whores.
BTW, before you call me obsessed with you, i am merely having a good laugh everytime i respond to you.
Your statements about woman says it all. You are absolutely hilarious! 😆
I have actually enjoyed reading your statements more than Gideon. I do not believe you are serious to the full extent as Gideon is. I too am merely having a good laugh also.
I will not be surprise if Gideon doesn't respond with some serious come back reponse.
Like, congratulations. I tried it for about two months on a shitty diet a while ago, and sucked at it. I have my father's build, which means I'm fairly predisposed to fast muscle and/or strength gains - went from a 260 leg press starting up to upwards of 400 in about five sessions, IIRC, despite one of the trainers at the gym being up my ass about overloading myself.
Then I realized that the leg press sucks, my diet sucked, and I needed to do more research. I also gained about 15 pounds of fatassness thanks to my inexperience and raw stupidity. I started working out again recently before getting owned by the aforementioned ankle, so I'm out for a few days. This time, it's a better diet and better technique and routines, and it took some effort to get started again, although my goals changed substantially.
I assume you've been doing this for longer and with more success, so props on getting over whatever hurdles I presume you faced.
Heh. I've just reread this thread. In pages 3 and 4 Faunus uses, pretty much the exact same arguments that I did. One comment I particularly liked, and it was ignored by Gideon:
No, Sidious could tear up Anakin and Obi-Wan fairly easily here. But that's where he stops, because with Yoda on top of him he won't be able to kill Windu fast enough to prevent the Vaapad effect.
That's my point. I'm not giving Sidious a real chance to win, here not at all. I don't see him overwhelming Anakin and Obi-Wan before Yoda gets in his face and/or Mace dips into Vaapad and basically leeches whatever speed he tries to use.
I'd also like to address one of Gideon's staple arguments:
He waves his hand, Kenobi and Skywalker are gone. It's as simple as that.
Originally posted by EnyalusMalak does it to two Jedi on the Star Forge, and he's using different techniques to boot. Kopecz (of the Brotherhood) knocks two Jedi on their asses, then fries one to death while Force-choking the other. Sidious is far above either of these guys, so... yeah.
The only example you use, the one involving Dooku and not even Sidious, shows him picking up and tossing one Jedi, not two. Do you have actually evidence to suggest that Sidious can wave his hand and toss them both aside at the same time? Or Force Crush them simultaneously? I don't ever recall two Force users being dealt with in such a manner, at once. Ready to prove it?
And while I still adhere to my current stance, I've given Sidious a shot at this if he plays his cards right.
Originally posted by Faunus
Malak does it to two Jedi on the Star Forge, and he's using different techniques to boot.
Thanks. I've never played the first KOTOR, just the second.
Originally posted by Faunus
Kopecz (of the Brotherhood) knocks two Jedi on their asses, then fries one to death while Force-choking the other. Sidious is far above either of these guys, so... yeah.
😐 For serious? When?? (I can't believe I missed that...and how do you catch these things?)
Originally posted by FaunusThanks though, it sort of means alot.
Like, congratulations. I tried it for about two months on a shitty diet a while ago, and sucked at it. I have my father's build, which means I'm fairly predisposed to fast muscle and/or strength gains - went from a 260 leg press starting up to upwards of 400 in about five sessions, IIRC, despite one of the trainers at the gym being up my ass about overloading myself.Then I realized that the leg press sucks, my diet sucked, and I needed to do more research. I also gained about 15 pounds of fatassness thanks to my inexperience and raw stupidity. I started working out again recently before getting owned by the aforementioned ankle, so I'm out for a few days. This time, it's a better diet and better technique and routines, and it took some effort to get started again, although my goals changed substantially.
I assume you've been doing this for longer and with more success, so props on getting over whatever hurdles I presume you faced.
To be honest, i have only been working out 6 and a half months, and 4 out of that 6 and a half months i had done everything wrong, bad routines, bad diet and crappy techniques.
It was only until 2 and half months ago when i stopped being so naive and started to do alot of research and made serious changes to my diet and routines which had led me to slap on 24 lbs of muscles, though its unlikely i would ever achieve the physique of arnold schwarzeneger without steroids(which i don't ever want to take), i'm sure i would still achieve a desirable physique in a few years time(BB is far from easy even for the genetically gifted).
A jump from 260 to 400 is incredible and you had at least achieved something, even i can't squat or leg press as much as you did(400) but personally i substitute leg presses with barbell squats as it is far more intensive and effective(it does increase upper bodymass by 10%).
But truthfully this wasn't easy for me as i had to come across so many hurdles(my body type is one) and i thank you for your affirmation(if that is what is called ><😉.
There was an interesting phrase that i caught a glimpsed off a while ago when i nearly quit, it goes like If what your doing isn't working, you don't quit, you change.. Its cool so i decided to share it with you.
Its cool to know that someone else on KMC works out in the gym 🙂
Ok, we better not get too off topic or rex is going to nag.