Originally posted by Gideon Distracted? This is what the argument has fallen to? Kenobi was crossing blades with the Count when Dooku unleashed his Force push. He was also preparing to re-enter the combat scenario when Dooku took him out of comission permenantly. What more do you want? Ah, that Dooku didn't give him fair warning? "All right, Obi-Wan, I'm about to Force push you now. Please gather your Force energies in an attempt to resist"?
My point was actually that he WAS in hand to hand combat, not defending from force attack, but i know what you mean, all is fair in combat, so he should have been expecting it. However, he wouldn't be crossing blades with sidious in the scenario you have laid out for the duel. Every bit of strength he had would go into defending himself in the force.
a.) Would it have made a difference? A neophyte Bane was able to tear through the Force defenses afforded by Qordis, an alarmingly powerful Dark Lord of the Sith. Count Dooku, one of the greatest telekineticists we have seen in the mythos, can surely breach the defenses of a Jedi whose connection to the Force was such that he was nearly sent to the Agricultural Corps...
I had my response all typed for this: how Dooku would have taken out Obi-Wan earlier in a duel with the force with ease, he would have, then i re-read the novelization, and i agree with you completely on this one. Dooku OWNED obi wan. "negligent flick of the wrist" the novelization says. If Obi-wan had been able to defend himself, he would have.
b.) Would it make a difference against Palpatine? I need not elaborate; you clearly see how stupid that line of thought is.
i'll take a pass on that one then: Obi-wan would be smashed into the wall. I still don't see any evidence where Anakin would be as open to a telekinses attack however.
The disparity in Force mastery between the reborn Emperor and Count Dooku is immense. Skywalker might have immeasurable Force reserves and unimaginable raw power, Kenobi might be an alarmingly skilled defensive duelist and cunning fighter, but neither of them are remarkable masters of the Force. Dooku was able to K.O. them on the verge of complete shutdown, being overwhelmed in lightsaber combat. Palpatine can do the same. And better. And quicker. Moreover, he can do it before they even clash blades.
before they clash blades is fine, i have no problem with that. Obi wan and anakin together may never reach sidious. Heck, i even concede their deaths. My only point is, Yoda or Mace is going to reach sidious during the time it takes him to kill those two, and they are going to take him out. It won't be like the movie, where they both stand there with that "oh me oh my look what he's doing to them" expressions on their faces watching it happen.
I don't know what movies and books you have been reading, but the only "mastery" that Skywalker and Kenobi have achieved is that they are highly accomplished swordsmen -- nothing indicates that their mastery of the Force is impressive or deep. At least not compared to the likes of Count Dooku, who is, in turn, nothing compared to the reborn Emperor. As I recall, Skywalker was unable to use the Force to open up a simple steel door in Labyrinth of Evil and was pissed about it, relying on clone commandos to destroy it with explosives. This was mere days before Revenge of the Sith. Don't kid yourself. They aren't comparable at all to the Emperor. Not one iota.
i'm not trying to put them there. They aren't comparable to sidious, not at all, (at least not with the force) but they aren't the ones going to win this battle. Heck, they aren't going to win it at all. In a force only contest, the four get curbstomped. But in this contest, Sidious can't take them out with the wave of a hand (at least not skywalker, and perhaps not obi-wan if sidious splits his attack. ) maybe a few seconds of concentrated power, but those few seconds are too many. Mace doesn't need vaapad to take down a foe is unable to defend himself because he's throwing all of his energy into an attack on Obi-wan and anakin.
Prove that every Jedi can block "some telekinesis" (WTF?) from someone as powerful as the Emperor. As far as Palpatine diverting strength, he is capable of summoning storms of Force lightning to encompass rooms, mortally wound Jedi, and disintegrate Sith acolytes. Rather casually. The second of which, he can do on the brink of death. So, yes way.
I guess i don't have to prove EVERY jedi (it was kinda broad, based on the part of POD, where it says the first thing every sith learned was the bubble of protection and all that.)
But with Obi-wan and anakin, they at least knew the technique of defending themselves from a force push, because we see it executed against each other. The fact that it is against each other keeps us from gauging the ability they had in it, but it does show its there. Remember, this isn't to save these guy's lives, that's not going to happen. They just need seconds. Every second they take getting killed, that is another second yoda and mace have to kill sidious. Also: when do we EVER see Sidious attack an enemy with a force push? its always the lightning. If you have more, i'm curious, where do we ever see sidious use telekinises other than in the Senate chamber? (which was darn impressive to be sure, but...) was there anyplace else we see that?
it took Windu roughly twenty seconds or so to submerge himself in Vaapad to counter the superior speed and reflexes of Darth Sidious in single combat.
where did you get that? 20 seconds? i haven't heard that number at all. in the movie, there are 7 seconds between the very beginning of sidious's leap across the desk until mace crosses blades with him. That doesn't mean it took him seven seconds to use vapaad, it was 7 seconds until sidious attacked him.
Really, all this boils down to is: Can sidious take out Obi-wan and Anakin as fast as you say they can. Even with all DE sidious has shown, i don't think he would destroy them fast enough to keep mace and Yoda from closing that gap. Difference of opinion really, much like the heated "did sidious lose to mace on purpose" debates that were raging around here 3 years ago. So i understand your side of it entirely i think, i just disagree on the outcome.